BC’s Active Transportation Podcast

Bike lanes can feel like a simple street design choice, so why do they set people off like a cultural lightning rod? We sit down with City of North Vancouver Councillor Tony Valente, who’s been on the front lines of active transportation advocacy and the backlash that comes with it, to unpack what’s really driving “bikelash” across BC and beyond.

We get into the political reality that traffic data and safety studies don’t always win the day, especially when distrust in institutions is rising and online culture wars seep into local debates. Tony shares why he prefers the term 'mobility lanes,' and how protected cycling infrastructure is bigger than bikes: it can support e-scooters, e-bikes, and seniors using low-speed mobility devices who don’t belong on sidewalks or in fast traffic. The through-line is freedom and safety, not tribal politics.

Bike Lash And Today’s Stakes

Peter Ladner 0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today we're going to talk about bike lash, which to my mind has two components. One is opposition to cycling improvements and bike lanes in general. And more recently, opposition to what I think are quite legitimate concerns about bad behavior by cyclists and particularly e-scooter riders. My guest is City of North Vancouver Councillor Tony Valente, who has been on the front lines of culture wars, cycling advocacy, and dealing with angry neighbors and businesses for many years in the City of North Vancouver. Tony, welcome to the podcast.

Tony Valente 1:09

Thanks very much for having me, Peter. It's great to be here with you.

Tony Valente’s Advocacy Roots

Peter Ladner 1:13

Can you describe yourself, your cycling experience and advocacy a little bit to fill in the background?

Tony Valente 1:20

Really, for me, the cycling piece started advocating for um like public space, maybe even before the cycling it was about the shipyards. And that's really how I got to be aware of kind of local government politics. But then as a result of running in the 2014 election, where I did not get elected, uh, I actually started meeting with community groups. And I went to this meeting with this group that was called Hub Cycling, uh, the local committee, and uh just found out about some of the cool things they were doing. And uh while I didn't get elected in 2014, I did very quickly thereafter become the chair of the uh of the hub cycling group for the North Shore.

Peter Ladner 1:55

Tony, I should do a personal disclosure here that you and I have ridden together in a group

Cargo Bikes And Real Errands

Peter Ladner 2:00

called the Peloton, which I don't attend all that often. But could you tell me about your latest bike ride anywhere?

Tony Valente 2:06

I would say with when it comes to cycling for me, I've got kind of two personas. I've got kind of that road cycling persona, which is the one that you're talking about, riding with Peloton. Um I've done a couple races in the spring series race. Um, not not any not any podium finishes to tell you about, Peter, but uh certainly certainly have that road cycling piece. But then if I had to tell you about my most recent ride yesterday, it was actually leaving from North Van. I took the C bus across. I had to get some stuff for uh um a uh lunch that we're gonna have on Sunday. Um so I went to Costco with my cargo bike. I've got a Marisa Mueller carry cargo bike, did my huge cargo shop or Costco shop, and then brought that back from downtown across Linesgate Bridge to North Van.

Peter Ladner 2:46

Wow, is that the bike with your name on it?

Tony Valente 2:48

That is not the bike with my name on it. That's actually an Urban Arrow shorty. Yeah, I'm starting to get to the point where I've got like a kind of, I don't want to say a fleet, but there's a there's a few different cargo bikes kicking around. Unfortunately, that Urban Arrow was damaged um um in the while being parked at work, and uh it's it's okay, but it's not quite fully functional, unfortunately.

Peter Ladner 3:07

Uh you've run in politic for political office. Uh did you run on a cycling platform?

Tony Valente 3:15

Um so definitely that that's that's a strong vein of mine. It's probably the thing that um makes me the most passionate about what I do in the city, but I've actually always been very cautious to not let that be the only thing. And I have been accused many times of being a one-issue candidate. Um, but I don't, I I that is not the only issue for me. And I have done a lot of work to make sure that I'm applying across multiple issues, listening to what the community says. And I actually believe that the bike advocacy, because because you've worked in the community as an advocate, it actually allows me to work with people on many different issues, listen to them, understand them, and hopefully bring their opinions and perspectives to council. So, yes, people know me as the bike guy, like I hear that all the time. I'm okay with it, I'm proud of it. But I think um I'm also very cautious that council is about more than just that, and it's about also

Building A Connected Mobility Network

Tony Valente 4:05

relying on your council colleagues for things where maybe I'm not the most knowledgeable. But I do think the bike obviously gives you that background to bring to council.

Peter Ladner 4:12

What is your proudest active transportation achievement?

Tony Valente 4:17

The achievement is not quite where I'd like it to be yet. But in 2019, myself and counselor uh Milkel Roy in the City of North Van brought forward a motion about uh creating a mobility network for the city of North Van. And when I when we brought this forward, I mean my vision for that was really about seeing kind of a Victoria style build out of a connected network. Because we know that um bike lanes, and I'll talk about what I prefer to call them, which is mobility lanes, um, we know that if there's not a complete network, it's just not going to work and people aren't gonna use them. Um and so that that network is is slowly being built out, but uh it's definitely taking longer than I would like.

Peter Ladner 4:57

Recently, in the in recent, I guess it's we're

When Cycling Turns Into Ideology

Peter Ladner 5:00

into years now, the government of Ontario has introduced legislation. They're giving them the power to pull out bike lanes, and cycling Toronto fought back and went to the Supreme Court and put that. They still haven't done that yet, but now the government of Alberta is saying they want to do the same thing. You're going, you're running for election in the fall? Re-election. I am, yep, I am. How do you feel the political winds shifting, if at all, around active transportation and cycling?

Tony Valente 5:29

I think that you're seeing those things in Alberta and Ontario, and uh, and I think it's unfortunate because you know, ultimately, I think the traffic issues on the North Shore, if I can be specific about the North Shore, definitely existed before. And you're not you're not fixing the traffic issues um by taking out bike lanes. Like that is just not a realistic though, that is not where the traffic issues are. So I think to be honest, what what really concerns me about the bike lash piece is it almost has become about ideology. It's not about data. And what we actually need to rely on is data and the studies that like our staff do or staff do in cities across the province, that's that's actually what matters. And I think there's a deeper democratic piece about how we actually engage people in the things that we do in our cities, and that engagement and consultation is so important. And I feel like there's just a lack of trust generally in institutions that has really um kind of blossomed across the board.

Peter Ladner 6:23

Do you find that if people are, let's call it properly engaged and consulted, that the opposition to bike lane improvements and it and additions goes down or is is somewhat muted?

Tony Valente 6:36

I well, I I that would I think that would be very optimistic of me. I do I do think if we do the consultation right, there is a growing um and I would say majority in key in our communities. Like I've you kind of asked me like where do I see myself as like a bike candidate? And certainly people have supported me because of that. And I'll say, Peter, I've topped the polls in the last election in 2022. I I've clearly communicated what I was going to do, and I've continued to do it, and I've really stuck to my values.

Peter Ladner 7:07

I think some of what's going on has to be attributed to the online generated so-called culture wars and the the what I would consider to be uh distasteful politics that surrounds that. But why is it that when you mentioned ideol ideological rather than practical concerns, I was remembering that the when the Ontario cycling Toronto took on the Ontario government, they the court documents took government experts, their own experts, to prove that there was not a connection between increased congestion and bike lanes. So that's that's your data you're talking about. But of course, in politics, we don't work in the world of just of data. And what is it about cycling that angers people? Why is it considered a leftist, elitist, uh globalist, UN directed, all that stuff? What where do you think that comes from?

Tony Valente 8:05

I honestly ask myself this question quite frequently because I think, you know, if you're a conservative and you want to have a conservative view of things, to me, that means you want market efficiency. You want to use the most efficient means of getting something done, which cycling clearly is that. You know, it is the best way to get around is one of the best ways to get around for sure. Super efficient, doesn't consume a lot of resources. So I actually don't personally understand that. I don't think it's productive when cycling is like on either side of a political spectrum. And to be honest, a lot of the work that I've tried to do as an advocate for being elected

Mobility Lanes And Senior Freedom

Tony Valente 8:40

and even as being elected has been to build a wider understanding of um the benefits of infrastructure. And I know this is the BC Cycling Coalition podcast, and I know it we're talking about the infrastructure in terms of cycling. But the thing I would really like to impart on this discussion today is that the infrastructure we're building for cycling, yes, it supports bikes. But I think there's a much bigger role for it in supporting, of course, e-scooters, e-mobility. But I also think about the aging population that we have in our communities across the province, across the country. You have a number of seniors that aren't able to drive anymore, but they can use lower speed uh electric vehicles, like, you know, like even those kind of sit-down scooters that you see seniors on, those things don't fit well on the sidewalk. And they certainly don't work well on the sidewalk if you're trying to get across the town or, you know, from the next kind of two, you know, five to ten block radius. And I believe that the cycling infrastructure, that's what I was saying before. You know, we talk about bike lanes. This is not a bike lane. This is a mobility lane, and this is actually about enabling people's freedom. And I can tell you, Peter, that in North Van, I have run into a group of gentlemen. They're using their e-scooters to go from one of them lives in Lynn Valley, the other one lives in Lower Lawnsdale, the other one lives in on the eastern side of the city, North Van. And I found them over at Ambleside, um, just outside of, I was at the Coho Festival this like in September, and they were there hanging out together, able to spend time together, having the freedom to be together because they could use bike infrastructure, uh, mobility lanes to get there and be together.

Peter Ladner 10:11

How did they get there? Were they using those chairs?

Tony Valente 10:13

They were using those scooters. Yep. I have a picture. I scooters when you like a two-wheel scooter? No, it's like a sit-down scooter. Um one of them even kind of had like a Harley-esque kind of bike motorcycle look to it. Like they're pretty cool. They've got like Canadian flags on them. And you know, this is a trend that I've actually seen. I have a great uh clip from a uh kind of like a 60 Minutes from the Netherlands showing how these bike baths um are actually supporting seniors in old age homes to get out and be free. In this case, it was showing these seniors leaving from their old age home. They were headed over to the beach, they had an ice cream cone together, and this like huge kind of armada of uh sit-down scooters going together. And I think that's that's the thing. We're here trying to fight the bike lanes because we don't like you know the cyclist, but this is so much bigger than bikes. This is about freedom, this is about how cities develop uh as we move forward.

E-Scooters, E-Dirt Bikes, Rule Gaps

Peter Ladner 11:18

But let's talk about mobility because you have been, to your credit, um, one of the leaders in addressing the abuses of that mobility with the proliferation of now e-scooters. Now you have an e-scooter so-called pilot project in on the North Shore, is that right?

Tony Valente 11:36

Yeah, on the North Shore. Uh, it's certainly in the city north and the district north and that's right.

Peter Ladner 11:40

And that means there are a lot of scooters driving around, and you also have mountain bike terrain that was said to be some by some people to be the the top in the world. So you I know you have these e e-dirt bikes. Tell us about what's been happening there and your response to it.

Tony Valente 11:59

Well, I think so, I think you've actually even in that opening bit kind of explained a key part of the problem, which is it's very difficult to talk about these devices. So, like an e-bike, that to me is like a pedal powered bike, which is different from an e-motorcycle. And so there's already like an issue there because people are just saying, oh, it's an e-bike, and that clarity is not there. And then even when we say e-scooter, you know, like you said, there's multiple different types. There's the type that the seniors ride on, there's the type that we're seeing um uh kids and others using as a as a piece of transportation. And what I've tried to do is also frame this discussion, uh, at least in the city north band, where I could, around how do we make streets safer for everybody? And I don't say that in the sense of like, okay, we're banning this, um, but there are things that are illegal right now. So those e-motorcycles, I understand um some of them in some cases are being used unlicensed on the road. That is clearly illegal. And so that that's in a totally different category. Then we have the e-scooters, and there are places where you can ride them. The sidewalk is not one, but it certainly um then leads into a discussion about okay, where where's the infrastructure? And I think what we're seeing is these devices are actually replacing shorter car trips, they're making hills easier, they're supporting, in some cases, even older riders, they're giving families more options, more freedom to let their kids go when they meet the age criteria, because there is an age criteria as well. But I think what's happened is the technology is kind of moved faster than the rules. And that it's moved faster than the rules, it's certainly moved faster than the education that's happening for kids at school. Uh, and then obviously the infrastructure is the other part that's lacking

Safety Toolkit For Faster Devices

Tony Valente 13:39

as well. I would say, Peter, like my position and the thing that I brought to council, which I'm happy to tell you about, uh, is not a crackdown on bikes. It's not anything goes, but it is clear rules, safer infrastructure, better education, uh, a target, targeted enforcement, you know, not blanket enforcement, uh, and then also design that separates users. So if we've got people on the street, we can't be mixing people walking with people moving on these things that are faster. And we can't have those people moving on those things that are faster, also in the car lane where the cars are doing 50 plus kilometers an hour. So the e-bike isn't the problem, I think. It's the it's the unclear rules, it's the unsafe behavior, and then the infrastructure that just needs to catch up.

Peter Ladner 14:15

Well, one of the uns one of the clarity of the rules is what is exactly an e-bike? And there are bikes out there that purport to be e-bikes, which are clearly not. They're over, they're powered way more, they go faster than 32k. They don't even have pedals, some of them, but they pretend to be e-bikes, so people can ride them without license and insurance. What are you doing? I know the RCMP on the North Shore has joined the fray here and is really working hard at educating people and enforcing. Uh, why is it that the parents are being told you shouldn't buy these bikes for your kids? Who's why aren't people bearing down on the sellers of these bikes? You're selling something that's illegal. Or is it illegal? When they sell it, it's just that's how it's used is illegal, or is the bike itself illegal?

Tony Valente 15:00

Again, I think those e-motorcycle types, so these would be e-bikes that are they're like they look like electric dirt bikes. Like those are not legal to be on the road. And uh, I think even just today there was actually an um an article on the CBC this morning um talking about how they're not legal for the for local roads. Um, there's been a real move by the North Man RCMP because this has been a problem. But the stereotype is that it's been generally youth using these e-dirt bikes. But I think there's just not clarity, uh I can only assume for the parents about what is and what isn't legal because it's become a much more complicated thing. Uh, and so I think the the confusion has has pervaded. And I think now that's why we are seeing the RCMP step up with enforcement. Um, so that's going to start educating parents. And then I think the other piece is we're starting to see the North Vancouver School District, uh, which was part actually the notice of motion I brought forward to address some of these safety issues, which I'm I'll tell you about in a second, um, really um start the education piece. And I think that's what we see in other jurisdictions. I think, you know, if you look at the Netherlands as a leader in cycling specifically, they do spend a lot of time uh with their youth training them. They have a sort of, I wouldn't quite call it a license, but like a certificate that you've been uh you've passed the uh the traffic exam. You know how to move around the city. And I think that's something that we need standardized in our province, absolutely.

Peter Ladner 16:19

And that would be a province-wide uh initiative done by what ICBC or I think province-wide makes a lot of sense because that's where your licensing happens for your vehicles.

Tony Valente 16:31

And so I think having standardization, the the issue we have typically in BC is just the difference between urban and rural, but I think when you're in those city centers now, uh, you know, across the province, of course, we've seen active transportation efforts uh all around. So I do think provincially does make sense.

Peter Ladner 16:46

Well, this is happening all over the province. There's a a woman in in Squamish, Lizanne Talmud, who's a mother of two teenage kids who's got an online petition going to um both lower the age from 16 to 14. I mean, in Alberta, I think you get a driver's license at 14. Um and and and at the same time do what you're saying, educate the kids, enforce the the rules. And her point was that it's been so liberating for her to have her kids able to move around on these e-scooters. She doesn't have to drive them everywhere, and they're free to meet up with their friends, and they're not sitting on their screens. So the bigger picture here, of course, is this is a wonderful problem to have. We are have having more options, more ways to get around that are healthier, cheaper, and more fun. But they do require bike lanes. And I think it's kind of weird that the uh people who sort of the the scooter haters are sometimes the same as the bike lane haters, and that doesn't make sense. If you want to fix the scooter problem, you've got to give them a place to go, as you say. So, what is your motion? What did you bring forward to council?

A Council Motion On E-Mobility

Tony Valente 17:57

So, what I brought forward to council was really a focus on e-mobility safety. And, you know, as a council, we have in our council strategic plan like a focus on a connected city. And then we also have across the North Shore, I think this is really special for the province for transportation because of the issues we face in transportation across the board, not just on e-mobility, um, we actually have this North Shore Connects partnership, which brings together the three municipalities of the North Shore as well as our Indigenous nations uh with a focus on reducing congestion and improving transportation. So I made sure this motion not just went to the city staff, but also to that group, which is called North Shore Connects. And basically uh what this said was that given the growth in e-mobility devices, we wanted to get feedback from equity-seeking groups on their experience with our infrastructure and what they see. And then we asked for a public uh education campaign that would be presented to North Shore Connects and kind of hopefully spread out across the North Shore, but also leveraging a variety of channels, so schools, uh hub cycling, uh, as well as like RCMP uh outreach. And then it also focused on encouraging uh road user communication through voice and bells and other audio devices, uh, and then basically identifying locations for supportive enforcement. And this is actually where it was funny. Uh I called it supportive enforcement. I had a lot of feedback. We talked about culture wars, people saying enforcement's number one. That's the way we're gonna fix this. I I personally don't believe that. I don't think Prohibition has certainly didn't deal with uh alcohol in the 30s, and I don't think it does in any of this either.

Listening On Safety, Parking, Business

Peter Ladner 19:27

You would know that it's very easy to be sort of shrilly advocating for things and calling everybody a bomb and a chump who opposes you, but you also have to be able to listen. When you've been listening, what do you think are the most legitimate concerns of people who are fighting against bike lanes?

Tony Valente 19:46

Well, just tying this into the e-mobility and the scooters, I think there is a legitimate concern from people that are worried about seniors on sidewalks getting hit by somebody using the sidewalk with a scooter or other electric device that's going way faster than sidewalk pedestrians are going. Stepping back to properly answer your question, I think all of this goes back to section seven of our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. All of this is about the safety of persons. So you're on the sidewalk, you need to feel safe walking. We need the bike infrastructure, because bike infrastructure, again, we also know that that's the mobility infrastructure. But we need that because people need to feel safe getting where they're going with the device that they're on, which may not necessarily be a car. I think that the realistic thing is that um if we're all interested in safety, which I think everybody is, regardless of where you stand on it, that's why this makes sense.

Peter Ladner 20:38

But we do hear typically you're gonna ruin the businesses in the bike route where the data shows that doesn't necessarily happen, but I think it does happen in some cases. You've taken out critical parking spaces. Now people can't get easy access to my business. Um, of course, you're constraining traffic because you're adding to congestion. Are any of these well, I I don't want to say legitimate, but are there ways that you can be listening to that and responding to it and respecting those concerns?

Tony Valente 21:07

Oh, we well, actually, yes, that absolutely. So here let me let me also answer the question another way. Every concern that somebody brings to me, like as a counselor, like I need to be listening to that, I need to consider it. And you know, I don't think um it is productive in any way as a counselor to be like, yeah, thanks for your input. You know, that's great. We're doing this anyway. Now, um, I think that the job as a counselor is kind of having one eye to the future. I always say this, one eye to the future, and then kind of reaching back with your hand to help bring people along where we think the future is going. Doesn't mean we always get it right. And and all in that comes all this feedback from folks where, hey, you're destroying the businesses. Okay, well, why do you think that? In all of those comments, there's always something that is worth considering um to make the process better. And I think that like this is actually what I was saying at the beginning of the podcast the consultation is so critical. It doesn't mean everybody gets what they want. And I think that's kind of the challenge. But it does mean that we listen and we think about, hey, that that person thinks this for a reason. And why is that? And then we can, you know, try to incorporate that or at least give it some consideration. I'll tell you, you know, I think the real problem with a lot of the mobility infrastructure, it's not so much the infrastructure itself. I think generally that can be understood and supported. I think people are generally really afraid of the construction, which does take a lot of time and that's where you have the impacts.

Peter Ladner 22:30

Interesting. This is the whole uh people just don't like change quite understandably. Can you give us an example of where you've you brought people along as you say in a way that that you thought was um satisfying?

Esplanade Lessons And Hidden Parking

Tony Valente 22:44

We did a a massive project on Esplanade in North Vancouver City. Very significant approximately $7 million of investment, basically creating a separated bike lane on either side of the street between St. George's and Forbes. And I would say that there was a there and there had continued even after the project you know was kind of wrapping up there continued to be a lot of pushback. But the pushback was around like oh there's not enough parking you guys have taken out we did take out a lot of parking on Esplanade but you know that's the other thing. It's like okay if we're trying to deal with congestion I think we need to ask ourselves also why we have parking on major like a major route like that where the parking then serves kind of like a you know it's kind of like an artery and then you've got parking in there like acting like cholesterol kind of slowing down the traffic. So that that actually I think improved the driving experience. And so I think I had a lot of folks including my neighbors I live in the area commenting and complaining about things like the just the destruction of parking of course it turns out we did a huge study staff did a massive study and there's about 2,000 underutilized parking stalls underground and yes you have to pay for those but that were not being used that we had been built throughout the area because of course it's easier to park on the street when that's available. So it's kind of making those trade-offs very visible to folks I think that is critical.

Elections, Millennials, And Family Riding

Peter Ladner 24:05

You're going into an election coming up at what point do you think the political winds shift in your favor? Is there a critical mass of let's say mobility users who will now be supporting these initiatives does it take like Victoria's now got is it 14% of trips taken by active transportation modes? At some point you would think that if these are successful and these e-scooters and so on are so popular that it would be politically advantageous to be supporting that. Do you find that or what would it take for that to be a big advantage?

Tony Valente 24:48

I mean I think for me personally like this has always been a part of my brand to some extent because it's coming from that hub cycling and advocacy background. So I mean I've made it work already for two elections. Like people put me here to to do this stuff. I I firmly believe that it's a core part of kind of who I am politically and you know like I said last time I was the top of the polls as a counselor so uh I must be doing something right and this is part of it. Having said that I am really excited about seeing where we get to in this election with millennials really sharing their voice. You know in the 2018 election I I was not the youngest elected to council but I was the second youngest. I am now the youngest on council. How old are you? I I'm 44 right now. So I'm not not that young but but I'm not you know not that old either. That's what I tell myself. And I have to say this election I'm really excited because I do see a lot of local folks young folks like younger than me 10 years younger than me 15 younger than me very keen to get into the political process and I think you're going to see some really exciting perspectives brought to council which I think is going to be great. Having said that I have spent you know my political eight years in office I think kind of balancing and being respectful to if you want boomers but then also trying to bring that millennial perspective and put the two together in a productive way. And I while I'm excited about the the views that can come to council and I think it's going to be great I also fear more polarization when I think really we need to find the ways to work together.

Peter Ladner 26:23

So are millennials more in favor and and and using more active transportation modes to get around I think there is a greater tendency to that.

Tony Valente 26:33

Yeah I think this next younger generation I think has more propensity to that. In the old days it was like oh well I had kids so now I need to get a minivan um you know the minivan kind of flex move of power now is actually the cargo bike it was even uh there was even an economist article kind of about this and like being able to take your kids to school and do the urban commute with your kids on the back of the bike like that is status.

Peter Ladner 26:59

So do you take your kids to school on a bike on a cargo bike?

Tony Valente 27:02

I I don't have kids. I have taken my cat to the vet though cargo bike. I'm not sure he was super excited about it. There was a lot of meowing going on I see success when I see a bunch of families riding their bikes to school or wherever they're going. And I can tell you actually this week you know June 3rd was World Bike Day um a UN declared uh day and there was a group here in the city of North Van community group the uh parent advisory committee at Queen Mary School got together and did a World Bike Day bike ride. It was a short ride we went around Victoria Park and then up to one of our other parks Mahan like wow there must have been 60 people there between parents and kids on some kids on their small bikes some kids riding on cargo bikes like that's powerful I think politically that's that's a huge group that's saying hey we want to be safe and feel safe in our community and I I'd love to be part of that. So it was great.

Peter Ladner 27:54

Is there anything else you you think our listeners should know about where the political winds are blowing on active transportation.

Transit Links And Complete Networks

Tony Valente 28:02

This bike lash piece is happening but I think I I would encourage listeners to engage those folks in discussion like yeah it can be frustrating but like we need to find a way to discuss and work together. There's no solution to traffic in terms of building more lanes so we do need to provide the options and I think by providing multiple options and I mean now we talked a lot about mobility lanes and active transportation of course uh we didn't talk a lot about um what we're doing from a public transit perspective in on the North Shore having those mobility lanes then connecting them to traffic for some of those longer trips and then having um bike share at the other side where you can use that to get where you're going that is the other piece of this puzzle that's going to help enable us. And I think as we start to make this transportation network a complete network, you know, not just about cars, but about public transit, about uh active transit, like that is part of the keys to addressing housing as well because of course it it makes everything more connected between housing and and where you work.

Peter Ladner 28:58

And you don't need as many parking places and but the big breakthrough I think for for let's say for young families is if they can not have to buy or get rid of the

Car Share As The Second-Car Exit

Peter Ladner 29:08

second car. And to your point it's not just about having a cargo bike it's also about having the option to uh have a bike share car sharing proper transit uh the do you think that car sharing is a big piece of the whole active transportation uh initiative I totally do and actually let me tell you a personal story about that you know when I first got elected in addition to my elected role I also worked uh in South Burnaby so and my wife at the time this is pre-COVID worked at UBC so we had two cars like I drove to South Burnaby she drove to UBC every day and after getting elected I actually changed my role I ended up working downtown so right away like I didn't I promised myself I was not going to take the car to go to work anymore and and that was enabled because of the location but I had no problem getting rid of our second car because I knew that I had an Evo membership and actually I had I really liked Car2Go too by the way I I love the smart cars and I I miss it.

Tony Valente 30:05

But uh I have this Evo membership and that that gave me the confidence to get rid of the second car because I knew even if I did need a vehicle I could get one and the other thing that's interesting about car share is like sometimes my block was like oh you know it's it's really expensive to use the Evo. And then I started kind of reasoning that out I'm like do you know how much like insurance is for the car that's sitting outside every year? It's like two to three thousand dollars and it's just sitting there. You know how many Evo trips I can make with two to three thousand dollars in a year so I I think you're right on Peter like I I do think that that is a key part of the the equation as well and I'm glad we touch on it. I actually understand there's going to be a uh car sharing conference in the city of North Vancouver in October which I should plug and make sure I get you information about as well.

Peter Ladner 30:49

Well it better not conflict with our active transportation summit in Victoria October 28th to 30th. Hopefully not we want you there Tony we you're the kind of person we need there well thank you so much for doing this thank you so much for all your good work and all the more power to you and your colleagues who are fighting the good fight for what we all think uh will improve people's lives and let's make them safe as well so thanks Tony thank you it's my pleasure to be here with you it's uh always great to talk

Closing Thanks And Listener Requests

Peter Ladner 31:25

you've been listening to Bike Sense an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition if you like the podcast we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes if you have comments or suggestions for future episodes email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca

An E-Bike, A Bus, And Relief

Peter Ladner 32:40

I had a north for a moment just a couple days ago I I went for a massage in in Gundarde I rode my e-bike over there and then I was so worked over I didn't want to ride back so I just stepped outside there's a bike there was a bus stop right outside her place. The bus came within two minutes I put my bike on the bus and got my all the way into town without having to do the the trek over the bridge.

We talk with Phil McIntyre-Paul, a key organizer behind the Splatsin to Sicamous Corridor—a 50-km rail trail and active transportation greenway running parallel to Highway 97A between Sicamous and Armstrong in the North Okanagan.

You'll hear how CP Rail's 2009 abandonment kicked off a long, messy acquisition process, why political turnover nearly derailed the project, and how Splatsin leadership changed everything by securing critical sections and bringing regional districts and municipalities into a shared model for acquiring, building, and managing the corridor.

We also zoom out to the larger Sicamous to Osoyoos vision—and how this rail trail connects with the Okanagan Rail Trail, the Kettle Valley Rail corridor, and the Trans Canada Trail to form a destination cycling network with real economic and active transportation impact for rural BC.

Welcome And Trail Overview

Peter Ladner0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show.

Peter Ladner0:27

Today we're going to look at a 50-kilometer rail trail from Sycamuse to Armstrong in the North Okanagan, and it's nearing completion after 17 years of work by many, many people. It's the Splatchine to Sequic Corridor, also known as the Shoeswap North Okanagan Rail Trail, sometimes referred to as Snort. It runs parallel to the Highway 97A north of Vernon to Highway 1 at Sycamous, and it's actually part of a grand 250-kilometer vision to connect Sycamus all the way to Asoyez near the U.S. border. These projects aren't easy. So we've invited someone to tell us about the challenges, how they've been overcome, and what other regions can learn from this project. And how this is only the beginning.

Meet The Trail Builder

Peter Ladner1:27

I've given you one title, but I know you were formerly the executive director of the ShoeSwap Trail Alliance. Tell me something more about yourself. How did you get into this?

Phil McIntyre-Paul1:35

My background is actually in community development, and so I kind of come to this innocently enough. Uh community development planning design, that's part of my jam, I guess. And uh and I've always been a uh a a trail user cyclist. Um I I love communities and cities and and villages that let you walk and physically move around the place. So that's always been part of who I am. So uh w when we moved to the Shu Schwab 30 years ago plus, um uh this incredible rural magical place of of water and mountains and hills and trees and obviously places to walk. That I immediately got immersed in that and involved with leadership that was trying to rethink how that looked.

First Ride On The New Section

Phil McIntyre-Paul2:23

Tell me about your latest bike ride. It was two weekends ago um in Sycamoose. I got onto what is currently an interim ferry being run by a group of community leaders in Sycamoose who just were figuring out how to get people onto a rail trail that we've just built. And uh, but there's still highway construction that's blocking access. So they created a ferry launch. I got on the ferry launch with my family. Um, it was a beautiful, sunny uh Sunday afternoon. And uh we cycled south of Sycamoose along Mara Lake on the west side on the abandoned rail corridor that is now the splatching to Sequnik Shoeshwap North Okanagan Rail Trail. And it's the first uh extensive part of the project that opened last year, 14.8 almost 15 kilometers, um, to the end of the lake and back. And it was I think it was downhill both directions. It was it was flat and it was spectacular, and it was very, very gratifying to uh actually cycle something that so many people have been working so hard to make reality.

Peter Ladner3:25

So it sounds intriguing. Makes me want to go there. Good. Uh but we've talked about uh the difficulties of opening this. You you have to take there's a sort of a custom ferry that has to get people at this point to the start of the of that section of the trail?

Phil McIntyre-Paul3:42

So we've been working closely with the other rail and corridor projects south uh right down through the Okanagan. The Okanagan Rail Trail between Vernon and Kelowna, the team of folks who've been work who worked on that project. Uh Brad Clement, one of the players, I remember him saying, as we were kind of pushing to get our piece moving, uh I remember him saying something to the effect of just be ready, because you will you you you you you have no idea of the the things that are about to come pop up that you've never thought of that will have to be overcome and figured out and solved in order to make this happen. And we could list all the things we know of uh to date on multiple projects, but there's going to be something you never thought of. And this is one of them.

Bridge Construction Sparks A Bike Ferry

Phil McIntyre-Paul4:27

Um the kilometer zero of this section of the rail trail is at the Trans Canada Highway. And so it it's the it's a spur off of the main CP rail line that ran south through the Okanagan. Um CP Rail abandoned it in 2009, and we've been working since then uh collectively to turn it into a rail trail. In the midst of that, the Ministry of Transportation in BC decides to rebuild Broom Bridge, which is the highway bridge at Sycamous. And so that's been a multi-year project. Now, right at the moment that we finally get this trail built and opened, and so the access to kilometer zero is blocked off from this bridge construction. And so we get a section of trail built. Everyone who lives in Sycamoose is now looking across the channel, because there's a channel from between them and the rail trail, and they see a trail that they can't get to. And so conversations happen. How do we get onto this thing? And there's kind of an awkward system of getting shuttled back and forth with road safety crews when the bridge is, you know, every hour on the hour. And uh but uh Sycamuse is known for houseboats, and so a group of folks pull together, they pull in um one of the houseboat companies, twin anchors, they pull in other businesses and go, look, what if we repurposed a houseboat pontoon for uh passengers and bicycles? It's about two minutes across the uh across the bridge. So they're they so it's costing about $200,000 of operational funds. They fundraised for it, uh, got support from, you know, there's some economic development opportunity funding. They uh uh businesses, corporate businesses have uh donated, um folks get on the ferry and they make they do it by donation. They've said this is a free ferry. They pulled it off. Honestly, it's one of those great examples of community gumption in rural in rural BC where folks are going, we just it it for me it was uh what we've known, which is the reason people don't walk and bicycle is because it's not possible and unsafe. But as soon as it's possible, people desperately want to. And we just need to stop pretending otherwise. So all of a sudden, this beautiful legacy Greenway Act of Transportation Corridor is visible to people, and to get to it, there's a two-minute water crossing, and they figured out a way to make it happen. So everyone's rallying together, they've hired a captain, they've got all their transport canada certification to stay within the affordable margins. Only 11 people can get on at a time. They've got it all set up with bike and the racks and uh awning. It's great. So you go to the go to the rail trail website or link through to the ferry website. Um, it's in the bulletin on the website. And uh they've they're currently now, uh May they started running every day. So they're running uh through May it's nine to five, and then starting in June, they'll be running from eight till six, right through the summer, every day, and then uh through September.

Peter Ladner7:33

Sounds

What Opens Next And When

Peter Ladner7:34

fantastic. Talk about multimodal. Yeah. So this is a this particular section of the track is 50 kilometers, but there are only certain sections of it that are open now. What's the the big picture? When are you expecting it all to be open and how much construction is going on right now?

Phil McIntyre-Paul7:51

That question of the hour. So we just did uh we just did a pop-up stand this past weekend at a street festival in Salmon Arm. Holy smokes, there's two of us at the booth, and the question we answered more times was that question, Peter. So it eminently, um possibly even tomorrow. We're working with the rail trail ownership partnership group, which is splat chain, together with the two regional districts, Columbia Shushuap Regional District and the Regional District of North Okanagan. So it's this collaborative of governments, orders of government. They're making it work. And so there, the the engineer and uh contractor, which is Splat Chain Development Corporation's Uke Minaluku team, have just substantially completed another, I think I want to say about a 20 kilometer plus section, and they're ready to sign off on substantial completion, turn it back to the owners, and so and then it will be officially open. And so that will take it then from the end of Marrow Lake, which I identified earlier, to Enderby. So there's Grinrod, Enderby, two more uh communities on the corridor. And then there's a final, I think about six kilometers south of Enderby. Uh it will stop at a road called Stepney Crossroad in the township of Smalcheen. And then we have an overpass to build on it on another part of Highway 97. So that's another part of the story. But effectively, the first 42.6 kilometers will be fully constructed by this fall uh this year. But the section through to Grinrod and then Enderby is ready to open any moment. So it's either this week or next week. Keep watching the website, check the update boltons. We've got the draft news releases ready so that when Splatchin and the regional districts are ready to trigger it, we can send it out. So that's that's how hot that question is right now. People are I I don't I don't want to say losing their minds excited, but uh it's not just the that people are excited, it's who's excited. Um, and you know, in the marketing world, they they they they warn you not to say everyone, you know, target your market, get specific. This is everyone. Like this is families with little kids pushing run bikes, to grandparents and folks going, I've never bicycled before, but I heard I could rent an e-bike, so maybe I'll give that a go to people wanting to walk their, you know, go for a walk. This is everyone. So splatchin

The Land Acquisition And Early Politics

Phil McIntyre-Paul10:41

leadership have been absolutely central and key to the whole project. Um, when CP announced it was abandoning the rail corridor in 2009, um, it triggers a whole series of required by law uh process, which I'm sure you're familiar with talking to any rail trail project. And uh so that process had triggered it, also triggered a whole group of leadership throughout the community starting to group and say, okay, we've got to be ready. Look, local governments, you you're gonna have a moment here where you've got 90 days to uh you'll be asked if you want to acquire this rail corridor. The answer needs to be yes.

Peter Ladner11:17

So your first your first advocate would be the local government?

Phil McIntyre-Paul11:20

Yeah, so it would be well, so splatching would be the First Nations would be part of that, right? So it goes initially it goes to um anyone who wants to purchase, who wants to bid and purchase the rail corridor to keep it running. So if you're if you have a viable um uh bid to to keep the the railway going, then that's the first round. And I think it's a like it's in these kind of 90-day chunks, right? There's a period of time, and then it moves to uh it moves to First Nations and and uh municipal regional governments have a period, and then it goes to fee simple, anyone who wants to start purchasing it, and then they start breaking it up. So it went through those first steps. There were some sort of attempts to try and keep it running. Um and those were interesting because we were uh the group of us who were going, this, if if anything, there needs to this, we need to be on this as far as a greenway opportunity. And there were conversations about rails with trails at one point. So all sorts of uh moves and manifestations. Um MLA George Abbott at the time pulled leadership together, um, supported those of us who are advocating from behind the scenes, and and got everyone in the room and basically said, look, you gotta work together, but if you do, the province will probably step in and support this. This is an opportunity. So even you know, right at the get-go, there was uh there was some significant political leadership. It still wasn't easy uh because you're getting all these local, like it's it's not just two regional districts and uh and splat gene. It's um each of those represents multiple electoral directors and municipalities, and each of those represent councils. So in the end, you've got like 20, 30 plus politicians at at play. And and and at a time when the question, we were still working hard uh at helping people understand that the question wasn't, is this a good idea? But how do we make this happen? Because it needs to. We were still in that in a transition period in that, and we've been working hard for a bunch of years to help people understand and see the research and see what was happening in other communities and getting results. But we were still teetering on that question. We're now in a place where the question on everyone's lips is how do we get how do we make these happen? How do we get them done? Which is a very different place. But at the time, that was the situation we were in. It was kind of a messy start. There was kind of different conversations, and then at one point um the district of Sycamus said, We've got this, we're gonna try and get our bit um because the northern end is within the Columbia Shoeshrup Regional District. We'll try and purchase that, and then RD and O said, Well, we'll split it up and we'll try and purchase our piece, and if we can, we'll stitch it together and talk about it. And there was some political changes and uh and an election, and people changed their minds, and they had an opportunity to purchase it in bits and said no, and we watched the whole thing collapse in front of us. Meanwhile, Splatchene leadership are behind the scenes. They've gone directly to the federal government and basically I suspect had the conversation, the obvious one, which was we never actually gave this away in the first place. You need to give it back. If it was developed as a rail corridor that people could walk and ride, it would give us a chance to educate people and potentially give us a chance to build relationships with the non-Indigenous communities and get some working, better working uh relationships happening. So splatching leadership was already thinking this is a tool, a strategy. And then they also recognized from looking at the research that there was economic benefit for their community as well. It's right through their main area, all along the water, uh, waterways, the shoreline, which is all really critically culturally significant and environmentally significant.

Peter Ladner15:09

Phil,

Splatsin Leadership Changes The Game

Peter Ladner15:10

you've described widespread support for this, and I can tell by the excitement in your voice that there uh people have perhaps caught your excitement and bought in. But at some point this project was described as an emerging leader in regional development. What does that mean?

Phil McIntyre-Paul15:25

Aaron Powell So taking that sort of splatching trajectory, um, they decided uh that the the more pragmatic move, if they wanted to see this happen now and not become a kind of a legal battle battle that could take 20, 30 years, that a better option would be to negotiate sale of two of the sections which were within IR land, which they uh held under under the federal INAC laws, right? So the two uh splatching reserves. So they they managed to negotiate a purchase fee simple of the two sections. There's like about two and three kilometer or one kilometer section, even, and then a like a three or four kilometer section. And essentially what they did is they got the bookends and they purchased it through their development corporation again strategically and super smart, so that it would not then just get absorbed into the reserve land, which technically is still actually owned by the federal government. They said, uh-uh, we're owning this. This is not gonna be part of uh, you know, we're not gonna push this into a Thailand rights negotiation, we're gonna own it. Once they did that, they called the Shishwap Trail Alliance, um, because they'd been working with me already to kind of sort of get support for this, and said, okay, can you help us pull the regional governments into the room? Because we want to see who's ready to work with us to try and acquire the rest of the corridor. So it was a so from a regional development point of view, what is notable about this is it's not one of those situations where you know we get buy-in from a few of the local non-Indigenous governments and then they figure it convince everyone else, and everyone's kind of all excited, and then they go, we should probably talk to the local First Nations communities. Totally the other way around. Uh the municipal and regional governments were floundering and you know, not do not really pulling it off and saying no and not really convinced. Um uh Kupke and Tukumipla, or chief and counsel um uh uh uh with the splatching uh community, had already got the community support and they had already got these bookends, got everyone in the room and said, Look, we have control of these two ends on both ends of the corridor. So and they literally were up on the top end and the sort of middle to bottom end. They said, are we planning to figure out how to acquire the whole rest of this and turn it into a greenway and and maintain it so that we can do these things and who's with us? And at that point, the conversation suddenly completely changes because now all of a sudden it's the First Nation driving the driving the bus. And they it was kind of like I I describe it as they literally had the train fueled and ready to go with the door open and said, if you're interested, get on. We're starting now. And so then they followed up with uh meetings with mayors and uh regional chairs, and uh from there a whole process. They they mandated their CAOs to work with the splatching title and rights um director who had already negotiated the purchase of their little pieces, and they made they came up with an agreement together and said, we will work together, we will commit to work together to acquire this and then manage uh basically uh acquire it, develop it, and manage it together and do whatever it takes to do that. So they've gone through a whole series of steps. They now have a reciprocal easements on the whole corridor so that all the different bits, the you know, the purchasing and stuff was complex, and but they did it.

Funding Reality And The Highway Overpass

Phil McIntyre-Paul19:06

Uh, there's two parts to that question. One is the acquisition of the rail corridor. And um the acquisition, I think it was 6.2 million to buy the land. That was the purchase uh step. And then there was the second part, which is develop the create the development plan. And we we estimated we needed about um just shy of a million for that, like about 800,000, 850,000. We're able to apply for grants for all of that. And so we got grant funding for that. Uh again, the partnership now is splatchin, Arduino, CSUD, supported by the Trail Lines and a number of other regional partners. So we're all able to kind of work and support them. And uh, and so that funding came through provincial funding and uh a little bit of uh local economic opportunity funding that uh uh the municipality, the regional district and district of Sick News have. And then that then brought it to the development stage, which kind by that point um we're now into the last eight years, right? The the what's happened over since 2017. So they purchased it into, they got they finalized the purchase of the rest of the corridor in 2017, so uh end of 2017, November. And then so 2018 is when everyone regrouped and they created a governance advisory committee, a technical committee. Uh the Trailliance has been uh uh sort of linked into that as a sort of technical supporting partner, and they that's they pulled me in again to help with that. And part of our role has been helping the splatchain and the regional governments raise the funds for that. And that's all been grant funding. So it's been federal provincial grants, um, again, local economic opportunity funding, and some dedicated rail trail funding for repairs that has come from other sources. So uh so that um to date, the sort of development part uh has been 16, just over 16 million. I think 15.5 million. Um uh but there's been, you know, plus the development planning part so for construction. They need $7.5 million to finish the overpass. So we're now down to the 42.6 kilometers up to uh Stepney Crossroad will be finished this year thanks to uh a $12.5 million grant from the Federal Infrastructure Active Transportation Program four years ago. And the deadline for finishing that was extended once, twice, and then this is it, gotta be done this fall, and it will be. And then there's a 6.5-kilometer gap to get into Armstrong, and that requires an overpass of Highway 97. And so that's where there's a there's an expense which additional funding is needed. And an application was put in again to the Federal Infrastructure AT program last year, a year ago, just over a year ago, for that funding. There have with lots of positive. Support. Splatchine is applying for that for that funding. So they're leading, taking the lead, which is important. But of course, then some other things happened. Like we suddenly had political turmoil, an election, a whole new prime minister, whole new set of agendas. We're building Canada strong and the agenda has shifted to other things. So we're still waiting to hear where that grant application is. If if that was successful, and we're we're really reaching out to the provincial leadership and the federal leadership to say, please make it, because we this this this trail gets finished completely connected next year, right? If you know if they if that funding was announced, they could start building that overpass and get it done next year by 2028, effectively.

Peter Ladner22:46

So it would be well this is one of many projects around Canada that are awaiting approval of the release of the $500 million that GT funding promised. And the minister in charge, of course, is Gregor Robertson, who's known in our circles to be some somewhat of a cyclist. So maybe, who knows, we can get this thing going. Um Phil, could you talk a little bit about how this fits into this bigger picture? What

Connecting Sycamus To Osoyoos

Peter Ladner23:11

is this uh uh Sycamus to a Soyuz project all about? And without getting into all the details, roughly how how close is that to completion?

Phil McIntyre-Paul23:23

It's so it's interesting. Again, it's one of those ones where 10 years ago it was like, yeah, this is this is doable. We need to just keep pushing, and and while we're working on our separate projects, we need to keep linked and connected. And we're now at a point where it's not it's not this is doable, we need to do this. We're at a uh uh then there's actively as we speak reaches out to provincial ministers, uh federal ministries uh to say uh help us get this northern section finished because it's it's ready to finish now, it's a quick win, and then we have a few gaps to complete, and we've got we've got a viable connection happening. So the Okanagan Rail Trail, um, Friends of the Okanagan Rail Trail, uh Regional District of North Okanagan, Lake Country Regional District, and the city of Kelowna, they all partnered. Eventually they pulled in Okanagan Band as well, and they're just getting a section through the Okanagan band uh lands finished now. That section got done a few years ago, um, and that significantly moved everything forward for us. And so we've all been working together. What was interesting was with the Okanagan Rail Trail in ours, we've been jointly researching together, sharing information, and then also making sure that every time we we apply for funding, talk to provincial ministers and leadership, we're always referencing what each other is doing. Meanwhile, there's the KVR, the Kettle Valley Rail uh system.

Peter Ladner24:48

And is this route dependent on some of those sections of the KVR that were washed out and don't have the funding to repair?

Phil McIntyre-Paul24:55

Well, it's interesting. It's it's it it all connects, right? So it impacts, it's not dependent on it, because the route to you know the that section towards Princeton kind of is now running east-west, whereas this is running north-south, but it connects. It connects into the KVR, right? So suddenly the whole thing connects. The Trans Canada Trail has now, uh their society has now has has reached out to the Okanagan Rail Trail and to the this this section up here, the Shushwap uh North Okanagan section, so the splat gene section, and said we'll register you in as a connector, a side connector. You'll we're this this totally makes sense. It all connects. Let's get you guys connected as part of the Trans-Canada Trail System. Um, so it it is important, and uh and and maintaining that connection for the for the you know the bigger puzzle of this is important, particularly when you start to see what happens when you start to compare it to what what we know from experience and research now in terms of these networked legacy destination active transportation corridors, which double as uh you know destination tourism draws and also recreational corridors. Those multiple values are I mean, there's an economic uh impact, there's an impact in terms of getting people out of cars and onto wheels and pedaling, you know, people-powered wheels. And uh so I, you know, personally I think it's all important and it's all connected. And it's interesting because the players in our area are all supporting each other and networked and working together. You've got Thompson Okanagan Tourism Association stepping in saying, wait a second, we this is this is a priority for us. We will work with all of these different projects and partners and with the provincial government to see how we can help support making all these connections happen. Not just one, not choosing one or the other, because they've recognized that it's the it's the it's the sum, it's the greater sum of the all the parts, not the individual parts themselves. It's funny, it's almost like because you know this from active transportation, uh it's a one-foot gap, is all it takes to render an entire corridor completely useless. Like I'm it's it kills me to see the millions of dollars wasted for not quite completed projects, right? Like it's don't do that. It's not it's a waste of money. And then on this bigger, this kind of meta-level, when you start to stitch them together at a destination level, same thing applies. Um uh yeah, road enthusiasts, like we've got we've got temporary interim cycle routes on backcountry roads, which cyclists are using. And uh, and so those will work for enthusiasts, right? Cycle touring enthusiasts who don't mind going onto roads. But ultimately for this to work, we need those stitched together. So enter Ribbons of Green Trail Society out of Vernon, who have done amazing work with the Active Transportation Network in the Vernon Greater area. So they stepped in. Uh, they've been a champion of all these projects. They said, we get it. You guys are working hard on building this. Um, the the Friends of the Okanagan Rail Trail and all the partners there have just, you know, they're still finishing up that section. We will start working with the local municipalities, governments, First Nations, and the province to figure out the gap between Armstrong and Vernon, which is 25 kilometers. So now all of a sudden, when we look at the map and start to see what's built and what will be built by the end of this year, it's gone from a map between Secumus and the Soyuz that had lots of black gaps and then little orange things, and then you could see how it might work, to suddenly a map that I would say almost 80% is orange complete or near complete. And then the gaps are small pieces, like 25 kilometers, which aren't, I mean, that's a lot of work locally. But when you look at the corridor, it's like, come on. This is now a political mandate decision away from getting done. And so suddenly the conversation is getting pushed back up to the political level, going, you want a nation building strong uh um project that's a super quick win? This could get done in a couple of years, to be quite honest, or in a few years. And it's going, yeah, it's got complex, you've you've got a retrofit, poorly designed, non-active transportation highway corridors, which you could have done differently, but hey, we're learning. But if we do that in a few sections, we allow separated parallel pathways within some road corridors that we've already established. This thing gets connected and it becomes now a thing that I remember when we were doing the research um on this like 25 years ago to kind of go, what makes a destination trail significant opposed to uh local recreational trails and active transportation uh greenways? And one of the things that showed up was um trail systems that you couldn't do all in one visit, but you had to come and do again, you know, come back and and visit again to do the next bit. Um suddenly something happened that was different. And you could see France was doing it, you could see Germany was doing it. Uh my goodness, Croatia's doing it. Like um Scotland was doing the Seven Stains thing where you could collect these sort of high roots, and folks would come back year after year and do a different piece. So suddenly it wasn't one visit, it was five visits. So so as soon as there's a corridor which is bigger than you can do in the three to five days that you've got, it has a much bigger place in our imaginations and arguably at the most basic level, really compellingly convinces people to park their car and get on their feet and on bicycles.

Peter Ladner30:38

To what

Everyday Transportation And Rural Safety

Peter Ladner30:39

extent are these trails, let's just talk about your 50-kilometer one that we started with, the Sycamused Armstrong one. To what extent would that serve day-to-day needs? Is it all outsiders or just recreation or tourism, or are people going to work or to shop or whatever the else they do along that route?

Phil McIntyre-Paul30:56

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's an interesting question as well for us in a rural context, because our numbers aren't compelling, right? Like we can't say, well, we, you know, if we create this and it, yeah, it's got recreational value, but there's gonna, you know, there's a population of a half a million or three million or whatever. Uh Kelowna definitely, uh, you know, and then Lake Country has quite condensed population. Vernon's a fairly large center. So the Vernon to Kelowna segment, each of those um uh uh sections have have provided immediate active transportation impact. So for us in a rural uh area, we have to kind of advocate on the at least in my mind personally, uh, on the level of uh how many dead people is the right number before we say it's important enough, right? That's kind of how we end up working. And uh the most compelling part of that conversation has been with the local um sequemic uh communities. We're working on another major rail trail style corridor uh uh west of Salmon Arm with uh Adams Lake and Nisconleth and uh Squilax called the West Bay Connector, because people have just they're now the past 50 people killed on the railway and the highway trying to get to basic amenities. That corridor will be a legacy destination tourism draw once it gets created. But ultimately the most important part is that people are getting killed trying to walk from their community into uh the main town center where all the things are that they need. But we're small. So we're talking communities of a few hundred people and you know, salmon arms growing, but it's 19,000. So the numbers don't trigger the same as multiple millions in in condensed airs. But the question at the meeting table has now got to the point of basically saying, so so please tell us we're we're now past 50 people from the Sconleth and Adams Lake community who have been killed on the railway or the or the highway trying to get back and forth. Who which number what like is it 60? Is it 100? Like how many people do we need to kill before that? Like it's I mean, it's been named. It's it's basically racist design and it's kind of functioning. So the the and but you know, the reality is more in the last 10, 15 years, that clearly is a concern for everyone, from CP Rail to Ministry of Transport, and everyone is now wanting to see that fixed. So these connections do serve as an active transportation network, and we're seeing it. So Sycamous, um uh it's not so much a commuter to work, except for people who live on the west side of the corridor are now able to ride and andor walk and take this little ferry and go in to work in Sycamoose. In Enderby, we did a pilot section. So we just did two kilometers. So three years ago, we managed four years. We got enough funding, um, and it was partly because thanks to the pandemic and the funding that was there, um, that was available, to do a pilot so people could at least taste and test and see what this was like. And tellingly, what happened was the local community of obviously became the number one user. But it wasn't just a few people, it was regular every day. And you had kids using it to get to schools, you had people using it to create a loop to walk their dogs and walk their, you know, their kids and get out, you had people using it to walk into town and back. So so we've been making the argument that yes, destination trail, but it serves multiple purposes. And uh certain sections are even or have heightened uh value. The other piece in in Enderby is this Black Chene community, uh sort of their sort of one of their main uh residential areas is right is is partnered with Enderby. And they've had the same request, the Ministry of Transport. It's like can we get some pathways so that we don't have to walk on the highway or in the street, right? Because usually the streets don't have the pathways. So this this creates another option that people are using. So it's a both end, and uh that's been a key part of the argument.

Peter Ladner34:51

One

Motorized Use And Managing Conflicts

Peter Ladner34:52

of the issues with the Trans Canada Trail, I know, is non-motorized or motorized users want to get on these trails. Have you had an issue with that, with keeping it non-motorized?

Phil McIntyre-Paul35:02

Early on, there was uh there was uh conversation. Folks said, wow, wouldn't that be fun to snowmobile it if there's snow? Uh it's pretty inconsistent snow. So um when there is snow, it makes a great ski route, cross-country ski route. So that's what's really taken off. Um there were there were some folks saying, yeah, let's ATV it. Um I'd been involved in in the you know some of the conversations and consultations along the the Kettle Valley Railway, and there's been quite a lot of controversy there between motorized and non-motorized use. And so I'd had a chance to spend quite a bit of time with the motorized user groups and and and get a better idea of you know what the real, you know, like from uh functionally what you know what the concern was. And it was interesting, uh consistently um folks would identify and they say these are access routes to other places that we like to go, particularly the, you know, the the um the mining road and rail system punches up into interesting, you know, high alpine and elevation areas on already created roads. So so you could see how, oh, right, so the infrastructure is helping people get to another place that they want to get to. It's more of a kind of a community. We don't have that issue here. So there wasn't there wasn't a really compelling reason to to turn it into a, you know, to have that for that to become a more intense conversation. But there were, there were folks who raised that and said, well, what about? Because there's opportunities here you could get into you can get into some of the, you know, the forestry road areas. But there was enough momentum underway in the conversation. The Okanagan Rail Trail, the connection south, um, you know, for Kelowna and uh Lake Country and RDO, there was such significant active transportation benefits. And then that rail trail really took off. Um once they built that rail trail, um, kind of the the numbers using it in the first summer blew everyone's minds. And um, because you know, it was again, those of us who've been working in it were sort of quietly going, well, we told you so. But we didn't, you don't do that. It's it's more fun just seeing people go, What? I mean, all the politicians who uh many of them were like, I don't think we should waste the money on this. They looked like rock stars. They just they were heralded and uh and yeah, to their credit, because they did support it in the end. And so just we're talking hundreds of thousands of people showing up to use it so and to walk it and ride it on bicycles in such numbers that it it physically you look at it and go, oh yeah, we couldn't possibly fit other uses in this, it would displace. The other piece for us, which has been super key on this whole motorized, non-motorized conversation, is that when we started the Trail Alliance and then the what's now morphed into what we call the regional trails roundtable 25 years ago, there was a lot of controversy happening down on the KVR uh between motorized and non-motorized user groups. And we looked at it and and sort of scratched a bit to see what's going on and uh met with motorized leadership here in the shoe shop, and we made a conscious choice together to say what we would we there's another way to do this. We could just commit to working together and not import the problem before it's a problem. That's let's take a different approach. We we don't really have trails that are conflicting yet because we haven't created enough. And then there's some and there are you know conflicts. There'd been some early wins where the Nordic society and the snowmobile club had kind of had some conversations and agreed to sort of keep out of each other's way and support each other. So it was kind of in the DNA a little bit. Um, the splatching leader or the sequencing leadership from all the bands were really helpful. They because they had been pushing at that table saying everyone has to work together. Round tables are the way we like to work. If we all work like that, we can figure this out. So we've had now a 20 plus year history of collaborating. Um, and that those relationships between all the user group has been really beneficial. And the and the round table that's now established, and there's a working group has really helped to do that. So as the rail trail was being developed and we were exploring that, we were having active conversations with everyone about you know why yes and why no, and why this needs to be a greenway and why it needs to be for non-motorized use. So is it, you know, is does everyone support it? Probably not, but is it generally widely accepted as that? Yeah, absolutely. So um there a little the harder one was really with horses, our equestrian community. There's uh it goes through agricultural areas where there's people with horses and and one little section where there's a number of folks who have horses and they love place to in the spring leg the horse get the horses out and leg them up and down the corridor. But because of the numbers that we were seeing in the Okanagan Rail Trail, and the numbers anticipated on this, um the you know, Splatchin and the regional district ownership group were able to look at it and go, let's not let's not say yes and then have to say no. Let's start with we can see the trend. And it's it needs to be a uh a pedestrian bicycle corridor at this point. Um, maybe there's room for a bridal path off the main trail later in this section. Let's monitor it and work together. Um, and then the other thing they had us do, actually, they had me do this through the trail lines was have us go and interview. We interviewed about 30 other Greenway rail trail and or greenway corridors like this in BC, but also in the states and and other parts of the country. And consistently bicycle equestrian uh and pedestrian conflict was was if it wasn't done well, it wasn't, it was, it was, it came up as the the most consistent point of conflict. So yeah. Phil, we

Wrap Up And How To Support

Phil McIntyre-Paul40:52

have to we have to wrap this up. But I need to go on. I have many more things to share, Peter.

Peter Ladner40:57

Uh you obviously do, and we haven't even talked about your ancillary sort of smaller, uh, lower, lower level routes that are uh all over the place in your region that you're working on and the bigger trail tables and so on. Good for you. For you obviously got a knack for bringing people together, as I've no doubt many other people that you've brought together and worked with. And uh I would commend your region on overcoming these many, many hurdles by bringing people together and having measured, respectful conversations, and by the way, getting the money and the political support. And I love that people showing up make the politicians feel and look good, and that's really key to the whole thing in many ways. So, congratulations on what you've done. I really want to get up and get on that ferry and uh try this route, and uh and I wish you so much good luck in connecting it all together and the the network down to Soyuz and with the KBR would be so fantastic. So go for it. You have our blessing, and uh hope we can get your message out somewhat through this podcast.

Phil McIntyre-Paul42:06

Awesome. I really appreciate the time, Peter, and the and of course all the work you guys do. I mean, it's the BC Cycling uh coalition's been a major, major uh support and advocate uh all along, and we use your information to help kind of bolster up what we're putting in front of folks. So team effort though, and uh as you said, it's relationship. It's all about relationships. The trails are the aftermark of what that relationship in the land and with each other looks like. Fantastic. Thanks, Phil.

Peter Ladner42:40

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca, yeah.

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Video on the Trail

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We sit down with Patrick Lucas, founder and director of the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program, to unpack how riding and trail building can become a doorway to confidence, health, and a renewed relationship with the land. What starts as kids building “stupid looking jumps” turns into something much larger: community-designed trails, youth skills training, and outdoor spaces that people actually use every day. 

Patrick shares what he’s learned about consent and respect in outdoor recreation, plus the real-world partnership work that trail clubs can do when building on Indigenous territories. We explore surprising outcomes like women-led running groups becoming the biggest trail users, and how schools and community members use the same trails for language learning, harvesting, and wellness. 

Why Cycling Changes People

Peter Ladner 0:46

All of us who bike revel in the benefits we so much love to talk about. It is fun, mentally healing, physically satisfying, often life-changing. Our guest today almost accidentally jumped into harnessing the benefits of cycling to change the lives of indigenous youth around BC. Their new journeys didn't just involve mountain biking, but also building trails, building self-confidence, and in some ways, transforming their communities and intercultural relationships. Patrick Lucas is the founder and director of the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program. Welcome, Patrick.

Peter Ladner 1:22

Patrick, how would you describe yourself?

Patrick Lucas 1:28

Well, professionally, uh my background is I'm a community planner, and I've been working with indigenous communities now for uh about 18 years. Uh and I like to describe myself as an activist and a storyteller.

Peter Ladner 1:45

Tell us a story about the last time you rode your bike.

Patrick Lucas 1:49

Well, it's been some time now. I I've been so busy over the last year or so. Um, so I haven't been able to ride as much as I would like. But I think the last really good time I had out on Mount Bike was uh last year. I was attending the opening for a new trail out in Hope called First Blood. It was built by uh my best friend and business partner, Thomas Schoen. Uh it was a great day of community coming together to celebrate a trail that uh they had built together and worked for many years to finish. Uh, and something that they did with the consent of the First Nations on whose land they were building. And I think that's something that makes for a very positive experience. So it was quite the day of riding every riding down the trail together and experiencing community in a really positive way.

Peter Ladner 2:33

Was that part of the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program?

Patrick Lucas 2:36

Not that project, no. Uh Thomas Schoen is has been my business partner for years, uh, but he built that trail through his company, First Journey Trails. Um, but we attended the opening uh and we're always happy to celebrate new trails as they're completed.

Peter Ladner 2:52

A Trail Opening Done Right

Peter Ladner 2:53

Tell us about how you got started with Indigenous youth and biking.

Patrick Lucas 2:57

Well, I was working as a community planner with First Nations around the province. I've been doing that since about 2008. And it was kind of the classic uh situation where I'm non-Indigenous myself and I was being retained by the government through a company that I worked for that specialized in Indigenous community development. And I would find myself going into these small, remote communities around the province. Um, and even though I, you know, I had a fair amount of education, I didn't fully grasp or understand the challenges and the situations that they were dealing with. And for the most part, I struggled to make the connections and to help the communities move forward in a meaningful way. And I was sitting in one of the communities, a small cutmuk community in the Fraser Canyon called Boothroid Indian Band. That's how they refer to themselves. And they were talking about their kids and they were talking about how they were struggling with uh sedentary lifestyles and they're concerned about drugs and alcohol and getting in trouble with the law, and they were trying to brainstorm new ideas that get kids outdoors and being active. And I remember sitting there feeling this knot in my stomach that despite my years of education, my supposed expertise, I had nothing of value to offer them. And it was in that meeting that uh one of the elders leaned over to me and he said, Hey, what do you know about mountain bikes? And he asked me because I always showed up with a mountain bike on the back of my car. I would go for a ride after the meetings. It's kind of how I kept my sanity. And I remember saying, Well, I don't know, enough to keep both wheels down, I guess. And he said, Well, our kids are doing it. They're riding all over the community. We can't build a we can't leave a pile of dirt without them building some stupid looking jump out of it. They were taking uh boards from our fences and wood piles to build their tricks and their features. We want them to keep outdoors. We want to help them, we want to support them. Can you help us? And of course I said yes. Now, I didn't know anything about building trails or bike features at that time, but I reached out to people in the community. I I met a lovely gentleman by the name of Doug De Doug Detwiller, who runs the SPRA Kids program, which was a huge program for getting kids into mountain biking for many, many years. And we returned to the community and we worked with the kids. Of course, they wanted jumps. So we built them a little bike park. And it just completely transformed my relationship with the community at that time. So I formed the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program. And the whole idea was that we were going to use bikes to connect with kids and communities and um, you know, support people getting out on the land and living healthy, active lives, and it blew up into something much bigger and much more meaningful

The Meeting That Sparked It

Patrick Lucas 5:36

than I could have possibly imagined. How big is it? But we've worked with uh about 40 different First Nations all over British Columbia and in Ontario. We've trained more than 500 youth to become trail builders, and we've built more than 200,000 meters of single-track mountain bike trails in those communities, supporting thousands of people to get outdoors and reconnect with the land to engage in outdoor recreation, uh, including hiking and dog walking and mountain biking. But probably our biggest user group is actually ladies' running clubs. How is that? Well, that's that's kind of an ongoing question. It was it was not something we expected, but a lot of the clubs that we uh or a lot of the first nations we work with, we would build these trails. And then for the most part, a lot of the first nature communities um women play a very central role in running the community and keeping things moving. And they started using the trails to get out and run during their lunch times. So we call them the running aunties. They usually have better names for themselves, like the Wolfpack Mama Running Club or what have you. But yeah, they became one of our biggest user groups uh in almost every community we work with. Uh, one of the things we love about the projects is we love returning to the communities and learning how they're using the trails in ways we never expected. Um, we always build the trails to be, you know, really good for mountain biking, but it's often like the schools start using them for language training and cultural revitalization. Uh, the community members use the trails to go out and access their berry patches and their medicines and to harvest cedar. Uh, and that's the kind of stuff that really keeps us excited and involved.

Peter Ladner 7:17

So you started out with kids doing sort of stunts and tricks and having some fun in the backyard. And it sounds like you've turned this into a way to build multi-use paths in communities that didn't have them before.

Patrick Lucas 7:29

Uh exactly. I mean, the the key thing about this, I think the reason that we've experienced the success that we've had is we really listened, we learned to listen and respond to what the communities were telling us they wanted. You know, when I first started doing this, I had a vision in my head. We were going to create a mountain bike Shangri-La and we were going to bring all these people together and ride together on these trails. And we do get to do that, absolutely. Um, but what the communities ended up telling us is, you know, we want these trails because the reserve communities, and I say this without hyperbole, were designed as prisons. They were designed to keep people in and sever their relationship with the land to remove them as obstacles to uh development um and colonialization. So for them, they're like, we need to reconnect with the land, we need to reconnect our kids and our people with the land. So for them, rebuilding their ancient trail systems was a key part of that. And we responded to that need and we let go of our idea, our vision for this mountain bike Shangri-La, as I said, and that's where we really started to uh find success. And we end we still ended up building some absolutely brilliant and epic and gnarly mountain bike trails along the way.

Peter Ladner 9:01

Well, speaking as somebody who at one time in my life, many years ago, supervised trail building in Garibaldi Park, there's something about trail building that's pretty special. People like to do it, they go out and do it on their own, and the province is just introducing some active transportation guidelines, and I'm sure they require there's so many meters and so many, you know, safety features and whatever. But trail building is a little more ad hoc, it's a little more do-it-yourself, and people love to volunteer and do it. It's not like you have to pay a big team to come in. Has that been your experience that somehow the magic of trail building has gripped uh the people who built these trails?

Patrick Lucas 9:41

Absolutely. And I think that's another element of how we experience the successes that we've had, is trail building in and of itself is a form of art. You know, when I'm working with the kids, we always tell them that this is not a construction project, it's an art project. We are creating an experience. Um, when people walk your trail, they're going to experience the story that you created through this trail. And that's something that really appeals and resonates with the people in those communities. Um, and it was something that they could get behind really quickly. And we found again, like when we showed up and we're trying to talk about mountain biking, it was something that we brought in from an outsider perspective. You know, it was something that came from outside the community. But when we're out in the woods and we're building trails, we're working with their land. We're working with their stories. Um, and we're building to their needs. And that was

From Bike Parks To Community Trails

Patrick Lucas 10:40

something that just really connected with people in a in a much deeper and more meaningful way. And a lot of the youth we work with, you know, often they're the kind of the kids that don't really fit in anywhere else in in the school or, you know, the programs that are available to them. And they can be quite artistic. You know, we work with a lot of kids who carve and who want to paint and who want to experience the land in that kind of way. And that was something that worked really well when we started working from that perspective. And that's the beauty of trail building. It it is it's landscape art. Can you give us an example of a story related to one of these trails? One of my favorite stories, actually, is I I call it the Herbie Standard. And it started, I was working in a coastal community, and you know, I'd be going into the band office and preparing the project, and we were given a team of youth and some community members, and we were going to build a trail from the community out to this little bay overlooking the sound. And there was a gentleman who was always in the band office, he was an elected council member. His name was Herbie. And Herbie was uh a very large individual. Um, and he had trouble walking, and he would usually just kind of hang out in the band office and talk to everybody who came in. He was just a lovely, lovely man, always telling jokes. And he told me one day, he came into the office and he had bought himself this new pair of really big white sneakers and some walking poles and this fleece, bright red fleece jacket. And he had been told by his doctor that he was pre-diabetic and he needed to get knee surgery, but he could do neither. He had to get his diabetes under control, and he had to lose a very significant amount of weight before he could get his knee surgery done. And he was talking about how he needed to change his diet. He kept saying, you know, I'm eating a very Western colonial diet. I've lost connection with the diet my people had. And he knew he had to get out and start walking. Now, this is a tiny little coastal community, so there was really only one little ring road around half a dozen homes where he could walk. You know, everything else was kind of closed in. Um, and he would get out every day and he'd walk these trails in this loop over and over and over again. He'd have to get his 10,000 steps. And myself and the kids, we started building a trail off that loop road into the woods. And one day we saw Herbie walking past, and the kids called out to him. They're like, Herbie, come join us. Like they were sirens in the trees. And I remember he looked kind of in at us in the murky trees where we were we were building, and he couldn't come join us because there was a little ditch just at the side of the road, and then kind of a sharp little hill up to the edge of the forest, and it was just too much for him. So without me saying anything, the kids went back and they're like, We're gonna read, we're gonna fix this for him. And I showed him, okay, well, we can build a little bridge here, and then we'll build a little cut bank along the along the slope so he can get up to the trees a little bit easier, and maybe that'll make it a bit easier for him. And the next day, Herbie showed up on his walk and he stopped. Kids called out to him, Herbie, come join us. And he was able to walk across that little bridge, up the little cut bank to the edge of the trees, but then he had to stop because there was some like difficult routes and another steep section ahead of him, and he just couldn't quite make it at that point. And again, the kids went back and they wanted like we want to fix this trail, and that's all they cared about. Um, so over the next couple of months, I worked with these kids, and every part of the trail, every day, we were building the trail just so that Herbie could make it further along the trail to join us. And over the summer, they built this trail exclusively for Herbie. And every day we called it the Herbie Stand because we'd be like, Can Herbie make it up this little hill? Can Herbie make it over this route? Maybe Herbie needs a bench here where he can rest. So over the summer, if we built a three-kilometer

Trail Building As Landscape Art

Patrick Lucas 14:36

long trail that led out to a bay, to a little viewpoint, overlooked the bay. And Herbie told us like he actually lived at that bay at one point with his mom in a house that they used to have there. And he finally made it out to the bay. And over the course of that summer, and a year later, I went back to the community and we were planning the next phase of the trail. And I was walking up the trail, and all of a sudden I noticed this man coming down the trail towards me, a rather slim-looking guy. And he had this bright red fleece jacket on that was kind of waving behind him like a cape, and these giant white sneakers and these poles. He was just charging down the trail. And I realized it was Herbie. And he comes storming down. He's like, I got my new knees. And I had to jump out of his way because he was walking past me. And he just trundled on down the trail. And so over the year, those kids they built the platform that he was using to regain sovereignty over his body. And the kids, they were so proud of that. I remember the day when he finally reached the platform, they're all high-fiving him and high-fiving each other and giving each other hugs. That's the kind of stuff that we see in the community that keeps us going every year.

Peter Ladner 15:43

I think we're gonna have to rename the all ages and accessibility standard as the Herbie standard. Yeah, because that's basically what you've just described. Yeah, so if if these trails are providing a great benefit within the communities, how you've described these trails as part of reconciliation. And how does the outside culture and the cross-cultural uh forces come into play there?

Patrick Lucas 16:24

Well, in terms of reconciliation, I mean, there's a there's a number of different fronts where that can work. So the first space where I see that working is clubs often come to me because they want to ensure that trails that they're building on indigenous lands and territories are being done in a way that's respectful and doesn't perpetuate the harm that comes from colonialism and recreation. Because those two things have always been explicitly linked, right? We've cleared the land to make way for recreation, and sometimes we've undermined indigenous rights entitled to do that. Um, so we need to repair those relationships and ensure that if we are building trails or we're, you know, we're playing out on the land that we're doing in a way that is respectful and done in a good way. So clubs will often come to me and we'll talk about that. Uh and there's some really good examples. I think one of the best is the Squamish Off-Road Cycling Association. They for years worked to develop a relationship with the Squamish First Nation. And recently, I think in the last couple of years, they signed a partnership agreement with the Squamish First Nation to manage and guide how they would uh build and maintain trails on their land, like their specific lands that uh they got a bunch of lands back through a land transfer agreement that had to do with LNG. And the lands that they got back, the Squamish Nation got back from the government as a as part of those negotiations, had very popular trails and recreation sites on them, including climbing. Uh, the the petrifying wall was part of that. So the club had for years been working to develop that relationship. They supported youth indigenous youth to get a riding, they provided employment opportunities for indigenous youth to be a part of the trail building. So they had worked for years to develop that kind of a relationship. And I think that's a really good example of reconciliation and action. And that is something I really encourage clubs to do. Um so when they come to me, they ask, you know, what can we do? I often say don't like a lot of when you want to build a trail in BC, you're supposed to go through uh rec sites and trails. And I say supposed to, you have to do that. It's a legal requirement, and we encourage everybody to do it. However, I always say go to the First Nation first. That's your first point of contact. Work with them, build that relationship, get their consent on where you want to build your trails, and then you go and you do the permits and everything you have to do with uh rec sites and trails BC because it is their land. The Royal Proclamation and recent court decisions, including the Williams decision in 2014, have clearly stated that the majority of land in BC is unceded, wasn't uh negotiated through treaties, and remains indigenous.

Peter Ladner 19:22

I want to go back to the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program. And you mentioned that you had trained uh was it 500 certified trail builders or something? Have the indigenous communities themselves taken ownership of this program? Do you have cases where you're not involved, but the program happens because Indigenous leaders step up?

Patrick Lucas 19:42

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, quite a few of the communities we've worked with started with us. We would train their youth, we would help them plan out a series of trails, and then the community would continue on with building those trails. So there's quite a few. So groups like, say, the Simp First Nation, uh, they're a Shakatma community located in the North Thompson River Valley. And they were building trails before we even showed up. And we partnered with them because they wanted to enhance their trail building skills.

The Herbie Standard Story

Patrick Lucas 20:10

They wanted, they wanted to work with some some of the folks that that they admired as trail builders, including Thomas Schoen, uh, my friend and colleague. So we worked with them to enhance their trail building skills and enhance the knowledge that they already had. They were really interested in learning how to build even better trails than they were already. And then, even though we worked with them for about five years in total, and we still work with them, but they developed their own trail building crew, their own trail building business, that they went on not only building trails around their community in Chuchua, which is just north of Barrier, where they built, I think around 20 kilometers of trail, but they also ended up working on trails throughout their traditional territories, which extends all the way up to Jasper. Uh, so they worked with the community of Blue River to build trails, they worked with the community of Clearwater to build trails, and they've been working with uh the town of Ailmount, where they've been building trails as well. So they used trails to assert their presence and their rights and title, as well as employment opportunities for the community and to support over the overall recreation industry throughout their territories. So that's a really good example. Uh, we've worked with the Heltsick First Nation in Bella Bella. We first trained their crew back in 2020 during the pandemic, and then they continued on and they've been building trails for years. And every once in a while, they'll invite us back to help them with a particular problem that they have. So they needed some bridges built. Uh so they're like, okay, we need help. We've been working the program that you taught us. Now we need you to come back and help us take it up to the next level. And so we'll have like this ongoing relationship with those communities over the years.

Peter Ladner 21:50

Right. At the beginning, you mentioned that uh the impetus for this came from a particular group of youth in a particular community. Are the kids outriding their bikes on these? Trails too still.

Patrick Lucas 22:02

Yeah, absolutely. Boothroy, the specific community that I mentioned, uh it's a bit different story. The kids that we built the bike park with then have all grown up and they're all uh you know out in their 20s now. That's how long we've been doing this. Uh and I think a few of them still ride, but they've all moved on. Um, and that bike park has since been built over. They had to develop some new uh community facilities. But a lot of the community we work with, absolutely the kids are out riding and still building. And some of those kids we started with, you know, they were in their teens, so they they started building with us, then they left, right? Like they got more interested in girls and cars, and now some of them are in their early 20s and are returning to the community and getting back into riding and building. Uh, and Tom Eustache, who's our partner in Simp, he's telling me about how, yeah, some of these kids are coming back now, and now they're helping younger kids in the community ride. And we're we're seeing that generational change, which has been really exciting.

Peter Ladner 23:03

These are great stories. I wonder about data. Do you have do you measure success by any quantifiable measures?

Patrick Lucas 23:10

Yeah, absolutely. Like we keep track of all the communities that we work with. We do our best to uh keep track of the trails that are being built, the number of kids that are working with us. Uh, some of the communities we do have trail trackers in place, sometimes trail cameras. So whenever we can, we collect that data from the nations. So that's how I'm able to state with fair confidence that we built over 200,000 meters of trail. Like I have an Excel sheet that shows each trail, each community, the trails that they've built, the number of kids that we trained. And if it's available and they track it, we know like how many people are using the trails and how often and for what uses. We track that. That's harder to track, but we do try to track that information as best we can. And we use that when we're helping the communities to access more funding, to show the results to the funders that we've already worked with, uh, and to try and give the provincial government an understanding of how important these trails are and how important that funding can be, and how important it is to invest in these types of amenities and infrastructure for rural and remote communities.

Peter Ladner 24:21

Just before we go, tell us a bit about the funding. Who who's paying for all this and uh and and where does the money come from?

Patrick Lucas 24:29

Well, over the years, I think one of the biggest sources of funding has been the provincial government. Uh, in the past, uh, they had the rural development fund, it was an absolutely brilliant source of funding. Sometimes it's the regional uh development trusts, like the Northern Development Initiative Trust across Northern BC has one has been one of the biggest supporters of trails. The New Relationship Trust uh funded a lot of the early planning. That's uh an Indigenous-led fund for community development. And some corporate sponsorships, so groups like Mountain Equipment Co-op, the Pay Dirt Fund, which is run by Santa Cruz bikes, uh, and other corporations have funded us over the years, like One Up Components in Squamish. Uh Seven Mesh Apparel out of Squamish has been one of our big funders and supporters over the years. Uh Fox Manufacturing has been a big supporter over the years. They have the Trail Trust, which is uh a big funder that supports trails around North America. Uh yeah, so there's been quite a few sponsors over the years. Every year is a struggle. You know, every year we're like, okay, what are we gonna do this year? Are we gonna be able to find funding? Sadly, I think the provincial government is not investing as much as they have in the past. Uh and the few chances I get to speak to someone, a political representative from the government, I really encourage them to start investing again in rural economic infrastructure development. I think that's one of the crucial pieces we can to really support sustainable rural communities. Trails are a critical element of what I call amenity uh migration. Trails are really important for attracting people to communities and keeping them there. That's how we get doctors and nurses and teachers and dentists to stay in rural, remote communities, is by providing the lifestyle choices that they need to help them stay there.

Reconciliation Through Trail Partnerships

Patrick Lucas 26:24

And that's something we need to continue investing in. Trails have been an important part of the climate change response. You know, when Williams Lake experienced the massive wildfires that they had, we learned afterwards that it was trails that brought back a lot of people who wanted that lifestyle choice. That's what brought people back to those communities after those wildfires. We found with the First Nation communities that we worked with that trails were an integral part of helping them not only prepare, but to respond to the crisis. And because the trails made their people healthier and more resilient, they were able to get through that crisis and to come back together afterwards. So trails are a critical element of healthy, resilient, and adaptive communities, and we need to be investing in that.

Peter Ladner 27:10

You mentioned before we started that you've done a number of podcasts on this program. And I know you've already, there's also a film called Dirt Relations that was at the Vancouver International Mountain Film Festival. How can people see that film?

Patrick Lucas 27:23

Well, the the Dirt Relations, so that's the story of the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program. And it follows myself and my two best friends, Tom uh Eustache from the Simp First Nation and Thomas Schoen, who's a master trail builder from Williams Lake, and how we came together to develop the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program. And that's on YouTube through uh Free Hub Magazine. Uh so you can see it on their pipeline series. Base go to YouTube, type in Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program, Dir Relations, and it'll come up. Uh, and it's also you can access it through our website, imbp.ca. We're really proud of that film. And we did it because so many people approach us. And they like I get calls every other week from mountain bike clubs and and outdoor recreation groups and cycling groups, such as yourself, who want to know like what are you doing? How are you engaging in this process? Because they know they need to work with First Nations on whose land they're playing and they want to do things in a good way. And I think storytelling is one of the most important and effective tools we have to move reconciliation forward.

Peter Ladner 28:28

What's next for you?

Patrick Lucas 28:30

Uh well, we've got a couple uh trail projects that are happening this year. In fact, on uh Monday, I'm flying up to uh Nishka territory working with the village of Gingolf to develop a trail that's been on our radar for probably eight years. Uh, this lookout trail that goes on the cliffs above the village and provides amazing views of the NASA and the sound there. And you can see across the Alaskan panhandle. So we're gonna be up there next week planning that out and getting ready to work with the youth this summer to do that. We'll be back in uh Wagalisla, also known as Bella Bella with the Hellsick First Nation. Uh so yeah, we got some exciting projects coming up this year. And always working, as I said, storytelling is a critical part of what I do. So trying to bring together some new film projects and keep stories around reconciliation and outdoor adventure uh moving forward.

Peter Ladner 29:23

Patrick, it's a great story, and I'm glad that we've had the opportunity to share it with our listeners and wish you all the best, and uh, we'll keep track of what you're doing. Thanks so much. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca.

Check out the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program at https://iymbp.ca/

Watch the documentary of Patrick’s work building trails with First Nations: Dirt Relations - the Story of the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program

Watch a documentary on the Art & Trails Initiative: Transcendence - Capturing the Spirit of Mountain Biking Through Art in Northern British Columbia.

What rural road maintenance means for active transportation, and why it matters in BC communities where the highway is the only route.

A freshly "maintained" road shouldn't make a stroller unusable or shred a bike tire. But that's exactly what can happen when seal coating replaces repaving on rural BC highways.

Area Director Andy Davidoff of the Regional District of Central Kootenay joins us from the small hamlet of Thrums, BC to examine a problem hiding in plain sight: in rural and compact communities, the provincial highway is the active transportation corridor. It's the walking route, the school route, the only route for people who don't drive. When that surface deteriorates, it doesn't just inconvenience cyclists; it cuts off walkers, mobility device users, and anyone without a car.

From there, we move from problem to advocacy: a push to end a 2-tier approach to active transportation infrastructure funding and a UBCM resolution calling on the province to formally recognize rural highways as active transportation infrastructure.

Peter Ladner 0:17

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Our guest today wants to end what he calls a two-tier active transportation funding formula that favors urban over rural areas. Regional District of Central Kootney Area Director Andy Davidoff is speaking out on behalf of rural communities whose only roads are provincial highways and there's often no transit. If kids want to bike to school or people without cars need to walk, they have to use these highways. But the Ministry of Transportation and Transit says it's not responsible for active transportation on highways, and local governments say they don't have budgets or jurisdiction to step in. The result is that these highways are not safe for multimodal use. Here to tell us how to fix that is Andy Davidoff. Welcome, Andy. Thank you, Peter.

Andy Davidoff 1:34

Where exactly are you? Um I live in a small, I guess, a hamlet of Thrums, B.C., , which is located between Castlegar and Nelson, B.C. And I represent Electoral Area I, Sentinel Mountain, , where I have 2,670 constituents.

Peter Ladner 1:59

Are you a bike rider or have you personally experienced dangerous situations walking on these highways?

Andy Davidoff 2:05

I'm a casual bike rider.

What Seal Coating Changed Overnight

Peter Ladner 2:07

You've been a director for four terms, you said. Why is this area why is this issue suddenly flared up now? Because you've written an article that got widespread circulation through the interior of BC. Obviously, you've you've hit a nerve here. Um describe what happened that made it so pertinent right now.

Andy Davidoff 2:27

Well, what happened was all of our roads in my area, , including the roads serving densely populated pockets in our in our area, have been repaved. So for the first time, we had in a community of Shire Akers seal coating applied to the road surface instead of repaving. And that was a shock to our community. In rural BC, there are no parallel municipal streets, no separated bike networks, no sidewalks in most cases, and the provincially maintained highways, everything school route, cycling route, walking corridor, mobility device route, and emergency access. So, what happened when they went to seal coating? They severely impacted my constituents' ability to utilize what was a beautifully paved road with some potholes, and they degraded the surface of that paving. And let me tell you, the impact on the community has been immense.

Peter Ladner 3:36

So let me get this clear. When they seal coat, it's it's not the same as repaving, which would leave a very smooth surface. Seal coating seals it but leaves little b ps and and is difficult to walk on. Is that the issue?

Andy Davidoff 3:49

Little b ps would be okay, Peter. It's jagged rocks that rip bicycle tires apart.

Peter Ladner 3:56

Okay.

Andy Davidoff 3:57

It is a road surface that is so rough that seniors with mobility issues can't use a walker. And and m s and dads can't push a stroller on this surface.

Peter Ladner 4:10

Did they used to do that before the seal coating went on? Was it adequate for that purpose?

Andy Davidoff 4:15

Well, let me tell you a little story. So the story I call it when the highway is the sidewalk, and we're going to reference Shrirakers, BC. So in rural BC, the road is never just a road, it is everything: a sidewalk, a bike path, a school route, a lifeline, and sometimes a barrier. In Shrirakers, residents describe what their community used to feel like a place where children rode bikes, where neighbors met on evening walks, where strollers rolled easily down quiet roads. Then something changed. A surface treatment was applied to the roads. Technically, it was maintenance. But residents describe something very different. So here's some of the impacts comments from the impact statements that I've collected. We used to walk everywhere, now it's too dangerous. My child rides on the grass because the road is too rough. Our dog can't walk on it anymore. It hurts her paws. Loose stones, uneven surfaces, dust damage, and something less visible but just as important. A disappearance of everyday community life. So the province maintains these roads, and the province also has an active transportation strategy that aims to increase walking and cycling, improve safety, expand access, reduce emissions. But in places like Shiracers, residents say the reality is different. So if the highway is the only corridor, then it is the active transportation system. There is no separation in practice. And that's what's changed because they used to repay, but now they're saving money by seal coding, which costs a quarter of the price of repaying.

Peter Ladner 6:13

I can see their point, but obviously they are not aware of the implications for your community.

Andy Davidoff 6:19

Um I beg to differ on that point. Well, you've made them aware. They are keenly aware of the impact on our community. And what's happened is I think there's some backpedaling going on because when our residents spoke with local Ministry of Highways officials, the conversation was always about repaving. No one ever anticipated, and I never had any, like we were just told that the highway is going to be treated with seal coating. Until you see seal coating, until you walk on it. When I went there and the pictures, I wish we could show the pictures on the radio broadcast and a podcast, and we can't. But the key thing is that it is like it's not sandpaper. I mean, sandpaper we could maybe even live with, but it's it's like literally rocks sticking out of the pavement.

Why The Surface Becomes Unusable

Peter Ladner 7:22

So Andy, these rocks must have been there in the first place. And you say before the seal coating, people were happy enough to use these routes with their strollers and so on. Um, all the seal coating would do, I would guess, would be just to change the surface of it. But if it was okay before with the rocks on it, why is it not okay with the seal coating?

Andy Davidoff 7:42

Well, then you've obviously not driven in a seal-coated dry highway. Here's what they do to prepare the surface for seal coating. They grind grooves in the pavement. Oh, okay. So they have a grinding machine that literally grinds the whole the surface of the the paving and makes these really pronounced grooves in the pavement, and then they apply oil and gravel and and seal coat those those it goes into those grooves, but the grooves remain. And and then what the ministry said when I said, Okay, well, how long will this be like this? They said, Well, winter snow plowing blades eventually will even out the surface. Well, this year, Sharaikers roads were were snowplowed once. Oh boy. So using like I can see on a major highway, right, where you're snow plowing all the time, that the seal coating can work. But in a community like Shara's, and by the way, it's it's it's not a classification of road that even gets snow plowed. It's one of the last to get snow plowed right in because it's it's not classed to high priority.

Peter Ladner 9:07

So if is your issue just with the the seal coating, and if they were to pave it, you'd be happy again, or is there a bigger issue about wait a second, just even paved shoulders on highways are not adequately safe for the strollers and kids going to school?

Andy Davidoff 9:24

We don't have paved paved shoulders. We don't have shoulders in Shrakers.

Peter Ladner 9:28

Well, what is it that the seal coating is covering?

Andy Davidoff 9:30

Seal coating is covering the paved surface, which is the whole road surface. Oh, so this is the same road that the cars are going over? Yeah.

Peter Ladner 9:39

Oh, okay, I see.

Andy Davidoff 9:41

And so basically, what's happened is that and and and to have a ministry response from Minister Farmworth and and his staff that if you want to build an active transportation network in Sureacres, then you could local government needs to pay for that, and that would mean building a shoulder with us with a subsurface, building it and paving it. So I I I got two quotes. I really wanted to find out what does this cost? So I got two quotes from two two companies in the BC who do paving all over the province. And I says, how what would it cost for us to never mind build the sub substrata for for a bike lane? What would it cost for us to put a skin a meter and a half wide for one kilometer 50 millimeters deep? The cost was one quote $82,500, another one was $95,000. Because I was thinking about maybe raising money for this, community works grants, whatever. But I was also warned that if the local government paid for that, so that would cost us probably five hundred thousand dollars to you know for five kilometers of roadway to have a bike lane where people can walk and do everything, but it would be on the existing road surface. I was I was warned, they said, by the way, if you only do that section of the roadway and the snowplows come in the winter, they could rip up that paving because the road's not even all all the way across. So it's not even even if we did it, , what would happen is that it may get it may get ripped up by snowplows when they do snowplow.

Peter Ladner 11:38

Well, the ministry says that I've seen their response that that you shared with me, that if you want to build something separate, as you say, you can do it on the regional district's dime. And there are cases where regional districts do invest in active transportation. Um, the capital regional district in Victoria is one and Metro Vancouver is another, and I'm sure there are others. But in your case, you say you don't have that jurisdiction or you just don't have the money.

Andy Davidoff 12:08

We it would be cost prohibitive for us to do, and it would require if we wanted to build a bike lane, for example, and a you know, just say bike lane, but it would it could be used for everything. Sure. If we decided to do that, we're looking at millions of dollars that we do not have.

Peter Ladner 12:30

How much did they save on the seal coating versus repaving? Was it a significant amount of money? You said it's a quarter of the cost.

Andy Davidoff 12:40

What is that? The information I have, and I don't, and and the ministry we'd we'd have to get more information from them, but the feedback that I received from from diverse sources was that seal coating is a fraction of the cost of repaving, and it isn't 25-30 percent. Uh it's a saving of seven, you know, 70, 70 to 75 percent.

Peter Ladner 13:06

Sure, but are we talking about like a hundred thousand dollars, a million dollars, ten million dollars? I mean per kilometer? Well, the amount the the distance that they seal coated that you're concerned about.

Andy Davidoff 13:18

Well, it's hundreds, it it would be hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars if not if not more.

Peter Ladner 13:26

But that's what they used to do, surely. If you say they used to have a paved road that everybody could walk on.

The Seal Coat Games Pressure Plan

Andy Davidoff 13:33

Yep. They would what they would do, and what they've done in my community and other similar, densely populated kind of pods of of constituents, what they would do is that you know they have the system that they they grind the road, right? And then they take the ground pavement, and then they that's treated in a batch plant, and then they come back with that, plus the the treated recycled aggregate, and then that's what they use to repave the road. And it's beautiful, like it's it's perfect. So I have a community, Glade BC, serviced by a cable ferry. It's like a Gulf Island community here in my area. I love it, and all their roads were treated that way, ground up, aggregate recycled, added the asphalt, you know, components that they needed, and repaved it is night and day to what exists right now in Sure Acres. This would never ever happen on any street, on any urban street. The urban residents would go ballistic if this happened on an urban street. So did they talk to the community about this beforehand? Say, hey, we're gonna SEAL coat, and here's what it's gonna look like.

Peter Ladner 14:58

No, how do you get your residents to go ballistic? Because you are fighting back, right?

Andy Davidoff 15:11

Oh, yeah. And guess what? I got I have something in mind. Are you are you gonna share it with us? I'm gonna share it with you right now because I I I mentioned it briefly at our regional district meeting. First of all, we're going to UBCM, and we had a motion, and we'll talk about that in a sec. Uh, I I've crafted a motion, , it's called Provincial Responsibility for Rural Active Transportation Corridors. And basically, this is a motion that I asked the regional district board to support to go to UBCM, and we can talk about that in a second. But here's what I'd mentioned briefly at the board meeting, in open meetings. I says I want to invite the Minister of Transportation and Transit, the Minister of Rural Development, who happens to be the MLA for Nelson and area, our MLA, who happens to be a parliamentary secretary for this. I want them to come and not play us, but play each other, like get two of them on each side with the media there. Let's see them have a game of ball hockey. Let's see them try push a push a walker on this surface. Let's see them bounce a basketball like maybe 10 times in a row and see if it doesn't take off to one side. Um, we're gonna have what I call the SEAL code games. And and basically let's let's see this, , let's see these people try to do what was taken for granted by the community, and until you lose it, you don't know what you lost. And is it the mandate of govern of a senior order of government who's responsible for these highways? Is it their mandate to degrade active existing active transportation networks? Is that what they're all about? I mean, it it is it is negligence. You you take a beautiful active transportation surface and degrade it to the point where no one can use it. I would love to see them come and videotape them with the Sure Acre SEAL code games.

Peter Ladner 17:35

Well, Eddie, based on my cherished theory that 75% of decision making around transportation is based on the decision maker's personal experience. You could have a win there. But in the event that that doesn't happen, you have another approach. You're going to the UBCM, you've got the backing of your regional districts. Um, is there any pushback to this? Is it unanimous? And what's the case?

Province-Wide Pattern And UBCM Motion

Andy Davidoff 17:59

Well, what happened is what happened is that at the board table we have another situation that's getting a lot of play right now, and that is in around the our chair of the board, Amy Watson. She has a stretch of gravel road in her area, and and her area is around the Kaslow area and that whole whole area. I have never seen a picture of a gravel road with a pothole, like literally, there's like 10 potholes every meter of road where it's supposed to take like 15 minutes to travel in a vehicle there, and it takes 45 because of the potholes. You cannot ride a bike on this road, and this is a gravel road, it's not even getting graded. So that was discussed at our board meeting. But what's happening is I have interest from all over the province on this because we are tired of being treated as poor country cousins. And what happens, and and then for the for you for someone to come and degrade what we had, and then say, you want to fix it, local government, you want to turn this into an active transportation corridor? That's you on your nickel.

Peter Ladner 19:23

Is this happening other places in the province? You've been hearing from other people?

Andy Davidoff 19:27

It's not just here, seal coating's happening everywhere. So this is a province-wide issue, yeah. And this is the way they're saving money. No, seal coating does work on main highways. Uh, and I and I've traveled seal-coated highways throughout the interior of BC. The key thing that has to happen is that you have to have the a lot of snow plowing on it, it will eventually smooth out the surface and the rocks and everything else. But in a community where, like I said, this year, there, you know, according to all the reports I've received, the snow has been plowed, the road has been plowed once. What's it gonna take you, a hundred years to for a smooth surface? Give me a break.

Peter Ladner 20:11

So, what does your motion call for?

Andy Davidoff 20:13

Here's the motion.

Peter Ladner 20:15

You don't have to do all the whereas's.

Andy Davidoff 20:17

I'm not doing all the whereas. Okay. Here's the resolution. For all kinds of reasons that we've heard here, we're pressing UBCM to have the province of DC formally recognize that in rural and compact communities without alternate transportation corridors, provincially owned highways function as active transportation infrastructure. And where necessary, the province needs to adjust rural highway maintenance standards to reflect multimodal uses and ensure safe conditions for pedestrians, cyclists, mobility device users, and other vulnerable road users. And that the province collaborate with rural and regional district governments to develop practical, jurisdictionally appropriate solutions that ensure equitable transportation safety outcomes between urban and rural communities.

Peter Ladner 21:34

In our discussions about this, we found that the response of the ministry often varies according to who's running that particular area. Now, you've obviously had conversations with your local people, maybe higher ups in Victoria. What has their response been? And are are they listening? And do you think this is going to change regardless of your motion? Because these motions sometimes vanish into the ether.

Andy Davidoff 21:56

Well, yeah, they and we also know the state of the provincial. finances so I'm sure they're not gonna be j ping very quickly here to help. Um basically the look I I get along with well with the local ministry people but what they've done is they brought something up everything we have done an audit and everything has been done in accordance with the with the standards and my question is well who set the new standard the same people that authorized the work so so now all you gotta do is just adjust the standard and then the audit meets the current standard for SEAL coding and we're going okay but what about the degradation? How could how can you are you said you mentioned that you would involve the Minister of Rural what was it rural rural development development she oh yeah this this is her job and and and I've spoken with her and and she is put it this way she's sympathetic and it says well can you please maybe talk to the cabinet about or the the minister of finance or somebody to help us out here and because this isn't in her writing it is right her writing is right on the edge of this writing so our our MLA is Morrison but the key thing is that Brittany is the point on all of this for rural BC. Does this count as rural development yeah having these roads in better shape oh yeah like the her her portfolio is all about everything that happens in rural BC.

Do No Harm And Closing

Peter Ladner 23:40

Well it sounds like you like many other areas in the province and projects in the province are up against the province's very real financial problems. Yeah and it's on you and and on us to raise our voices and create enough political friction that this is one area that won't be ignored because obviously there are safety and and quality of life issues that are pretty serious.

Andy Davidoff 24:07

Yeah Peter the the key thing here for us is that we understand your financial situations fix the potholes and leave the paving pavement alone because you when you degrade it you've caused a harm and when our our my constituents have to leave their community to go bicycle riding and that's relevant to your coalition when you can't ride your bike because you're afraid of ripping your tires up on the seal coating something wrong with what was done.

Peter Ladner 24:41

So don't cause do no harm you got no money fix the potholes but do no harm don't degrade the the the active transportation network that exists already and it's beautiful was beautiful even with the potholes well Andy let's we're we're all here to support your yearning for the good old days and I just hope somebody's listening and this becomes a priority because clearly for you and and many other areas in the province it is and thanks for your good work we will follow this and hope that you can get some results and people in Shoreacres and well all over the province can not have to deal with the horrors of seal coating. Thank you Peter you've been listening to Bike Sense an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition if you like the podcast we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes if you have comments or suggestions for future episodes email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ta You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca

Bikepacking is active transportation at its most adventurous, and it's far more accessible than it looks from the outside. The real magic, as today's guest explains, is how quickly it becomes doable once you understand the basics.

We sit down with Moe Nadeau, Nelson, BC route builder and newest member of the BC Cycling Coalition board. Her work has helped make the West Kootenays one of bikepacking.com's featured route network hubs in North America, helping put BC's active transportation scene on the global map. 

Moe shares the story behind the West Kootenay Bikepacking Route Network —  five routes designed to be accessible to everyday cyclists, not just hardcore adventurers — and what it actually takes to build a route from scratch. Along the way, she shares stories from riding the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route from Banff to Mexico, plus what long-distance bike travel teaches you about planning, patience, and self-reliance.

Moe also explains why she founded Building Momentum Bikepacking to support women and non-binary riders with skills workshops covering route planning, on-trail mechanics, bike fitting, pelvic health, and period care, lowering the barriers so more people can access cycling as both recreation and travel.

We also talk honestly about e-bikes in the backcountry (charging and weight trade-offs), and how welcoming all kinds of riders helps diversify the whole cycling community.

Whether you're an experienced bikepacker or just getting started with active transportation in BC, this episode will have you eyeing the West Kootenays for your next adventure.

Peter Ladner 0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Labner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today we're going to talk about bikepacking. Our guest is Moe Nadeau, who has created many bikepacking routes around Nelson that have been recognized on the world's preeminent bikepacking site, bikepacking.com. Because of her, Nelson is one of only three North American bikepacking hubs on that site. Mo founded Building Momentum Bikepacking to provide women and non-binary people with bikepacking skills. And she is one of many eager volunteers around this province who have spent countless hours helping others enjoy cycling the way she does. Welcome, Moe.

Banff To Mexico By Bike

Moe Nadeau 1:15

Thanks, Peter. Nice to be on here.

Peter Ladner 1:17

You got into this in part because of an epic bikepacking trip that you did. Tell us about that.

Moe Nadeau 1:24

So in 2022, I biked from Banff to Mexico along the Great Divide bikepacking route. And then moving from that, we spent a bit of time down on the Baja, and then we took the ferry and the bus over to mainland Mexico, where we spent another month bikepacking in Oaxaca. So sort of a bit of a mix of things, but all throughout North America.

What Bikepacking Really Means

Peter Ladner 1:50

How is bikepacking different from cycle tourism?

Moe Nadeau 1:54

Essentially the only difference, and the reason there's this term called bikepacking, because these are really both the same things, but bikepacking is in search of the least amount of pavement as possible. And so what that means is you probably want the things on your bike to be a lot more streamlined and efficient so that you can maneuver the bike more easily. So, you know, not having large, cumbersome panniers at the back of your bike. You're often doing hike-a-bikes, or you want to kind of throw your bike on the side of a dirt road and be able to pick it up easily. Um, or if there's sections of single track or small ATV double track, you want to be able to maneuver appropriately. And so that's really where the streamlining of putting your gear is has kind of happened in the bikepacking space.

Peter Ladner 2:46

To me, this sounds like high adventure. Uh, and when we talk about cycle tourism, which is a big issue for us at the BC Cycling Coalition, we often hear about the guided tours and the e-bikes and the older people. Where does your version of bikepacking fit on that spectrum of cycle tourism?

Moe Nadeau 3:06

Yeah, I think this is where you know bikepacking.com really comes uh to play in sort of how I bikepack and my type of tourism. Um, I don't typically bike with a guide or have a trip that's predetermined for me, but I really love using the resources uh that are available online so that I can read about the routes, download routes that other folks have done. Um, and maybe I'm diverting a little bit along the way, but I have sort of a scaffolding that's created through online resources so that I can um you know access those to do my tourism.

Peter Ladner 3:44

So you're carrying all your gear. Uh it's not like a toothbrush and a credit card kind of trip where you just go from one hostel or uh nice Airbnb to the next one. And you have to be ready to look after yourself entirely along the trip. Is that right?

Moe Nadeau 4:00

That's right. Yeah. So everything that fits on my bike is essentially my house, my kitchen, all of my supplies for in the event that a mechanical happens, um, all the clothes I would need to keep me warm and dry and safe. Um, everything has to fit on my bike.

Peter Ladner 4:18

What kind of bike do you have?

Gear Without The Hype

Moe Nadeau 4:20

I ride a Surly Krampus, which is a steel hardtail sort of mountain bike. It can have suspension on the front, but I kind of mix between whether I want that suspension or not based on the technical pieces of the route. So it's sort of an indestructible bike, a really burly, heavy bike that can be changed based on the routes that I'm doing.

Peter Ladner 4:46

When I looked at bikepacking.com, they have a large section of gear. All the different things, not just for your bike, but for your camping and lighting your fires and so on. Do you have a special gear hack to make these trips better?

Moe Nadeau 5:02

Oof, that's a really good question. And I would say that the biggest hack to me is not getting caught up in all of that gear and all of the reviews and feeling as though you know you need all of these fancy items to be able to do it. Some of my favorite memories were when I first started bikepacking and you know, I was bungee cording whatever I could to my bike, some things I had found in a free bin that I kind of jimmy-rigged to be on my handlebars and carry my food. So I think for me, the the biggest hack is trying to find unique ways to fit any day items you might already be using to carry your things, rather than really getting sucked into buying all the fancy items. Um But I would also say that stretchy cord is really, really helpful. So if you can affix that to the outside of sort of any different pieces, whether that's, you know, on the back rack um or on your front handlebars, just having that extra space available when you need it, but it, you know, packs down really flat has been a lifesaver for lots of things like raincoats, but also baguettes that you might want to pack with you along the trail. So I've appreciated having that.

Peter Ladner 6:28

I feel like a pro. I never go anywhere without two bungee cords on the back of my bike because you never know what you might have to carry.

Moe Nadeau 6:35

You never know.

Peter Ladner 6:37

People I've talked to who've done epic trips often say that they learn to take less and less as they get more experienced. You just strip it all down to what you only what you need because you're carrying the weight around. Are you a light traveler?

Moe Nadeau 6:53

Yes. When I first started bikepacking, it really was for me more of a way to mountain bike longer and further. So I started not having much space on my bike because I still wanted the mountain bike functionality, which meant right off the bat I sort of had to be a minimalist. You know, I didn't have a big frame triangle because there was suspension there. I didn't have a lot of clearance on my back tire because I wanted to be able to move my bike seat up and down to ride the downhill. So I was almost just forced to be minimalist. And I would say that that has really transpired into all these longer routes that I'm doing, you know, that are less technical, but I'm just used to having less items. So it feels a little easier.

Peter Ladner 7:43

Let's talk about those longer routes. You've created a route or you devised a route or you just discovered a route that met the qualifications of bikepacking.com, which I'd like to know what those are, and became a celebrated route. Tell us about that one.

Moe Nadeau 7:59

Yeah, so back in 2024, yeah, about two years ago, I had been thinking a lot about responsible recreation and you know, how could we create bikepacking routes that really spoke a little bit more than just going out and enjoying a route leaving and not thinking about the place or the people or the culture. And so that was where the impetus for the Kootenai Confluence route came, which really sparked the West Kooteny bikepacking route network. And so I essentially pitched this idea to Miles Arbor, who is the only Canadian employee of bikepacking.com. And timing happened to be really great in that they had funding to create routes in the interior specifically. And so Miles came back and said, What if instead of creating just this one route, you created a whole route network? And we talked about the West Kootenies in general. We talked about their resource extraction history, the uh dams, the indigenous populations, the wildlife. But we also built four to five routes within that area for folks to use. And really the idea there is that the hope is that they're coming not just to do one of those routes, but maybe multiple, and maybe they're staying in Nelson, in between those routes, getting to know the area and really exploring more deeply.

Peter Ladner 9:38

What does it mean to build a route?

Moe Nadeau 9:40

It essentially means to scour over Google Earth and Google Maps and ride with GPS and try and piece together forest service roads, little bits of single track, um, things you might already know based on some of your previous experience, um, but to cobble some sort of a GPX track together that you think is going to work, and then do a big scouting mission with your friends. Um, and so that's what Miles and I did. We really worked collaboratively to think about this route. And we took a couple other people with us and did a bit of a scouting mission to, you know, see what worked and what didn't, and really make sure we were ground truthing as we were going. So for me, this was actually a big learning experience because, again, as someone who does a lot of mountain biking, the typical routes that I do tend to be a little bit um less for everyone. And so I really wanted to make the Kooteny Confluence route something that anyone could do. Um, we really take advantage of lots of the rail trail in the area, but there are a couple of high mountain passes that give some scenery, some beauty to this place. And so we were really thinking about how to mix those differences in to still make a route that was doable for people who were newer to bikepacking, but might want to do, you know, their first week-long adventure.

Peter Ladner 11:15

So they're not single tracks and crazy jumps and that sort of wilder mountain biking. That's not these that's not what you're doing. It's much more open to to let's call them ordinary people or less skilled people.

Moe Nadeau 11:30

Absolutely. We do have one that's a little bit more uh challenging. It's the Bonnington Scrambler, uh, but it's only a few days, and so it's a little bit shorter. So maybe you do want to try something that's a little bit more challenging. That's really the nature of Nelson. There's a lot of steep valleys and challenging terrain here. So we did want to offer one of those options, but largely wanted to make most of these routes accessible for everyone that uh is interested in bikepacking.

Peter Ladner 12:02

So if I go on one of your routes, do I have to have a phone or uh you know mobile device that's keeping me on track and telling me what I'm seeing and the history of the region? Is it is it quite linked into a mobile device? Do you need reception everywhere?

Moe Nadeau 12:20

So for the for the actual route itself, is it is a GPX track. So whatever navigation tool that you might use, you would need, uh whether that's a phone or a bike computer GPS navigator. But the additional information, you know, that speaks a bit more about the history, that's all found on the bikepacking.com website on our root network hub. So you would need to be able to access it via some sort of device to read about it. We don't have, you know, signs along the way that point you in the right direction.

Peter Ladner 12:58

What does it mean that Nelson is one of three bikepacking hubs in North America?

Moe Nadeau 13:03

Yeah, so this is a newer endeavor by bikepacking.com. But the idea again behind that was really to focus on establishing a network of routes in one area so that folks could really explore that space very deeply and again bring back that idea of responsible recreation and more conscious tourism. So, you know, in the bikepacking world, there's a lot of bikepacking racing that happens where people are blowing through areas because they're really wanting to go far and fast. Um we're trying to kind of flip that upside down and think more about what if we went slower and we stayed a little longer and we really learned about the areas. And so that's the essence of these route network hubs. The first one was created in Oaxaca, Mexico. Beautiful routes, very phenomenal opportunities there. The second one was created in Colorado in the US, and we were the third one created in Nelson.

Who Bikepacking Is For

Peter Ladner 14:10

You said you imagined people who would come and do one route and stay in Nelson, go to the bar, have some, have it go to the restaurant, and then do another route. That seems like a uh a little out of reach for your average person with a few weeks of holiday a year. Is this something that's geared to people who are more like yourself who want to do long adventures and have the time and money and whatever to take to do that?

Moe Nadeau 14:34

Well, I think it's a bit of a mix. So the Kootme Confluence route, we we have it on our um on bikepacking.com as about nine days. You could probably finish that in, you know, between seven to nine days. But the other routes are from anywhere from two to four days long. So I would say that, you know, if you do have a two-week holiday, you could potentially get two different routes in, have a little bit of fun in between there. And I think for me, the beauty of bikepacking is it doesn't have to be expensive. Most of our routes take advantage of rec sites, which, you know, those are largely free. And really the key piece there is just making sure you can fuel yourself with the resupply options that are available. And again, kind of coming back to I I firmly believe that the best bike for the trip is the bike you already own. So trying to get creative about what you may or may not need on your bike, how you can pack that efficiently. I really think that bikepacking is one of those sort of lower barrier options uh to, you know, camp and adventure without having to spend too too much.

Peter Ladner 15:48

We heard at a recent BCC meeting a talk about cycle tourism, which described the typical client as people over 50 who come and like to be guided and go on safe routes and bring e-bikes and stuff. Um is it possible to describe a typical bike packing person? Would it be demographic or or somebody younger?

Moe Nadeau 16:17

Yeah, I mean, I definitely do think that the older population are cycling a lot. They probably have more vacation and more opportunity to do that. So I I do tend to see folks, even you know, mid-40s um who have maybe older children or no children that are are coming out and doing these routes. Um, but I myself am in my early 30s and I have a phenomenal community of people and we are all bikepacking. So I I do think there's a a bit of a mix, or maybe more folks that are younger that are learning about this. But in the endurance sport world, I do think it tends to trend a little bit older.

E-Bikes And Charging Reality

Peter Ladner 17:02

Mo, are you seeing people on e-bikes doing bikepacking?

Moe Nadeau 17:08

I don't see a lot of that myself. Um, and I think that largely is because we're on back roads, there might not be reliable access to recharge facilities, or if your battery dies and you still have a big climb to go, the bike could be quite heavy. But I will say that with my inaugural workshop last year, we had one member who was on an e-bike. Um, and at the end of it, one of her big thank yous was thank you for not discriminating based on me needing this e-bike. I had an amazing time and I was able to connect with people I otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to because, you know, the non-ebike option was too far out of reach for me. So I think there are instances where, you know, it really could work, but just when you're bikepacking, you might need to do some additional planning to make sure that you can charge appropriately with the spacing of opportunities for charging, especially within the BC backcountry.

Peter Ladner 18:09

Is there such a thing as a solar charger that would fill up an e-bike battery?

Moe Nadeau 18:15

That's a good question. That seems harder. Okay.

Peter Ladner 18:49

You created something called building momentum bikepacking. Tell me what that's about.

Moe Nadeau 18:53

Yeah, so this was really a creation that stemmed following the development of the West Kooteny Bikepacking Route Network. While I was creating these routes with Miles Arbor and my partner Harry Tudor, one of the key things that I was finding was uh it was a challenge to get women or non-binary folks out to scout these routes so that we could have them represented in, you know, the photos and the write-up. And it got me reflecting a little bit on who I tend to bikepack with and what I'm seeing in terms of who feels like they can participate in this sport. And so for me, kind of turning on my researcher hat, I started to question that and reach out to folks and ask a little bit about what those barriers might be. And that's for me where building momentum bikepacking really was formed, uh, really as a way to lower the barriers I was hearing. And mostly what I was hearing was, you know, I'm not seeing myself in this space. All of the content that's being created typically is male-dominated. But when we do have great success stories from women or non-binary folks, it tends to be the racers, the ultra-elite uh athletes. And it's hard to also imagine yourself in that space when you're new to a sport and you just really want to go out and have fun and, you know, build community bikepacking. And so for building momentum, that's really the key pillar is allowing all those barriers to be lowered so that we can just ask questions, learn about the sport, build community in a really safe way. So some of the things that we teach, you know, how to do route planning, how to pack your bike appropriately, how to do some basic bike mechanics on the trail? Um, but we also talk about things like period care and pelvic, um, pelvic health, as well as bike fitting, um, and some more specific items for women and non-binary folks that might just not be talked about in the men's bike world.

Saddle Comfort And Fit Barriers

Peter Ladner 21:08

So uh what is different then about uh a group of women bikepacking versus a mixed group or a group of men?

Moe Nadeau 21:16

First thing that comes to my mind is being comfortable on the saddle. Women have a lot more challenges finding comfortable fitting saddles, and that can often be a big deterrent to wanting to go on long trips. Because I personally suffer from trying to find a good fitting saddle. And so one of my key things with this is trying to talk about it, trying to provide options for people to learn a bit more about you know what their soft tissue means and how we can support that. So they're comfortable. So they do want to go for more than one day because it still feels fun.

Peter Ladner 21:53

What is the secret to a comfortable saddle? Is it just trying different ones until you find one that works?

Moe Nadeau 21:58

I hate to say it, but I A little bit, you know, it it's about doing a little bit of research on your own anatomy and what that might be for the saddle. But I do think that being okay with trying multiple is really important. Um, and that's again for me where accessibility comes in because a bike saddle isn't cheap. And if you have to be purchasing multiple ones, it may become unaffordable. You know, we have a lovely bike shop in town that allows you to buy a saddle and try it and return it if it doesn't work. And that's something I'm promoting. But there are a few other pillars I'm hoping to kind of pull from um and eventually get a collection of saddles where people can come and just try different ones as they're they're learning.

Peter Ladner 22:42

Interesting. Well, you've done four routes now. Uh are there more in the works?

Moe Nadeau 22:47

Yes, we actually posted a fifth one late summer, but it's still um, it's online on bikepacking.com, but you have to go onto the local overnighters in order to find that. So we are building slowly but surely. It's all sort of capacity and funding dependent. So hopefully stay tuned and we'll have a few more routes as well.

Peter Ladner 23:11

At the risk of being a shill for bikepacking.com, what is different and better in your view about bikepacking.com that's made you want to work with them?

Moe Nadeau 23:21

Yeah, I would say that bikepacking.com, um, Logan Watts, the founder, has really rigorous standardization for how the routes are created. And so there's quite a high system criteria that he, you know, makes all route builders go through uh to vet the route. You know, we don't just put up something that we haven't scouted and we haven't thought about the audience. We really make sure to also provide detailed information regarding what a rough itinerary might look like, what some other features you might uh need to play a role in, such as best time of year to go, you know, in the West Cootenies, key information about bear awareness or forest fires that maybe international travelers might not know about. And really just making sure that as much information that could be provided is there, sort of as a one-stop shop. You know, if you don't look at any other information about this region, hopefully that route will provide as much information as you would need to be comfortable on the route.

Peter Ladner 24:29

Do you have any data about people who have been attracted to the region just because of your routes?

Moe Nadeau 24:34

Only anecdotal data, because whenever I see a bikepacker in town, I like to stop and ask them what they're doing. But I would say this. So the route network came out late fall of 2024. So really it wasn't rideable until summer 2025. And last summer I saw a very large increase in the number of cyclists that we had to town. And I heard that from some of the local bike shops or physioclinics that you know they were noticing an increase in bike pack uh tourism. So I think I'm seeing an increase, but no no official metrics at this point.

Peter Ladner 25:12

Well, uh we often talk about how cycle tourism stimulates uh economic uh activity. I but I I haven't really realized that the physio uh services would also be part of the beneficiaries. So yeah. Uh restaurants, massages, the whole works. It's been terrific talking to you, and I really appreciate the work that you're doing, filling in that niche. I also have to mention I'm thrilled that you volunteered to join the board of the BC Cycling Coalition, and we welcome you entirely. And uh look forward to working with you and helping you and others like you keep that part of the bike tourism business going and increasing, and uh filling in part of the full range of cycle tourism. So thank you so much.

Moe Nadeau 26:00

Thank you, Peter, for having me on here, for letting me share a little bit about the efforts that I'm doing here in Nelson. And I'm really looking forward to being part of the BC Cycling Coalition and supporting more broader provincial-wide strategies for cycling. So stay tuned. I'm I'm excited.

Peter Ladner 26:24

You've been listening to Bike Dance, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.latner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca.

• Bikepacking Article: Building Momentum

• Moe Nadeau Consulting

• Building Momentum Bikepacking Documentary

• Building Momentum Bikepacking Substack

• West Kootenay Route Network Hub (click on each route badge to learn more about the routes)

• West Kootenay Bikepacking Route Network Short Documentary

• Bikepacking Roots Routes

Your bike doesn’t become “unrideable” when a chain wears out or a wheel goes out of true. It becomes unrideable when you can’t get it fixed quickly and affordably by someone who has the necessary skills. That person is becoming ever harder to find, and that’s the gap we dig into with Zoé Kruchten, a bicycle mechanic and community engagement specialist with more than a decade in mechanical work, advocacy, and research.

Zoé shares the national push behind the Canadian Bicycle Industry Skills Coalition, including a workforce survey aimed at finally producing real labour market data on hiring, skills, pay, and training bottlenecks. We also talk wages, shop closures, e-bike repair, and why policies like France’s Repairability Index matter for sustainable transportation and AT.

Visit the website of the Canadian Bicycle Industry Skills Coalition (CBISC) to find out more: https://bicyclemechanics.ca

Support the show

Welcome And The Repair Problem

Peter Ladner 0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in VC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. I just took my e-bike in for a tune-up this morning, and I assumed that my local bike shop would have a mechanic on hand, and of course, that that mechanic would be qualified. But it turns out that's not always the case. But without bike mechanics and good ones, there will be no biking for many people who can't fix their own bikes. So today we're going to talk about the state of bike mechanics in Canada and in BC with our guest, Zoe Kruchten. Zoe's a bicycle mechanic and community engagement specialist with over 10 years experience across mechanical work, advocacy, and research. Welcome, Zoe.

Zoé Kruchner 1:11

Thanks for having me.

A Flat Tire That Fights Back

Peter Ladner 1:13

Zoe, can you just start by telling us the last bike you repaired?

Zoé Kruchner 1:18

Yes, that would have been my own bike. I have been having a series of flat tires on my main commuter bike. And yep, it's been me in my kitchen. Pretty frustrated, actually.

Peter Ladner 1:34

You're trying to fix a flat tire? I can fix a flat tire. I thought you were a qualified mechanic.

Zoé Kruchner 1:39

Yes, I can also fix a flat tire. This one's been a tricky one.

Peter Ladner 1:42

Let's just get into this for a second. What can be tricky about a flat tire? You replace it, is it to it's a tube tire with a tube?

Zoé Kruchner 1:50

Not necessarily. This uh bike that is uh refurbished but new to me, and so I was kind of discovering that there were some issues on the inside of the rim with this uh wheel where the part where the spokes connect to the rim, uh there was some abrasion, and so I was actually getting the puncture from the inside. And the rim tape that I had, which is the part that covers the area of the rim where the spoke connects, just wasn't doing its job, so it wasn't protecting the tube. And I ended up having to put a kind of like cushioned tape that I got from a hardware store. Yeah, it was a very DIY fix, um, but it's been holding now, so it should be good.

Peter Ladner2:35

Congratulations! How did you get into bike repair?

Zoé Kruchner2:39

Yeah, that's a really interesting question because I think I have a bit of a unique trajectory. I was hired by the Bike Kitchen, which is a community bike shop out at UBC, um, as uh basically an apprentice. So I was hired with zero experience. I knew maybe how to pump my tires, but it sort of like kind of didn't always work. Um, and I was given the opportunity to learn about bicycle mechanics. I was hired for four months full-time in the summer, and I went from zero to then being hired during the school year as a junior mechanic. And that was about 14 years ago, and I've been kind of in the cycling industry in in various capacities ever since. Not always as a bike mechanic. I've I've kind of only ever worked part-time as a bike mechanic since then, but I had kind of an amazing uh introduction to bike mechanics through that initial hiring through the bike kitchen, where yeah, I was given four months to really learn hands-on and through books and technical documentation and and feedback from some really amazing mechanics who were working there at the time.

How Shops Actually Hire Today

Peter Ladner3:55

I I know that you're involved in a national survey to look at the state of bike mechanics in Canada, but I just want to go back to your own experience. Is that an example of how we're training bike mechanics these days? Somebody comes in cold and there's assumed to be some sort of mentor expert on hand to answer questions, and you look up books and YouTube videos. Is is that it?

Zoé Kruchner4:16

No, so I I think I had a really unique experience in that I was hired to learn. I wasn't hired with the expectation of being immediately productive. So I wasn't working on customer bikes in those first uh couple months. The bike kitchen had really created a very unique, I would view it as basically an apprenticeship. Um that is not, yeah, that's not the standard of how people enter the industry.

Peter Ladner4:45

What is the standard for how people enter the industry?

Zoé Kruchner4:48

Right now it's you knock on the door of a bike shop, apply as a bike mechanic, um, hope to get hired, and then hope to receive training on the shop floor.

Peter Ladner5:01

Would you apply for a job with no experience? Is that how people do it? They just say, I I think I could I could be a good bike mechanic, so take me on and hire and train me.

The Push For A Real Job Code

Zoé Kruchner5:10

Yeah, it's gonna depend on what the shop is looking to hire. So some shops will specify that they want someone with experience, although what we're seeing is that that's it's very hard to hire an experienced bicycle mechanic. Um, so shops are also in some cases willing to hire people who have very limited experience. So generally, that's someone who has maybe done repairs on their own bikes or on their friends or family's bikes, uh, is passionate about bicycles and repair, has watched some YouTube videos, um, so has maybe some real cursory knowledge about bicycle mechanics. And then the hope for the shop would be to kind of put the person in a situation where they're kind of starting with some basic repairs, are hopefully being supervised or trained by a more senior mechanic in the bicycle shop. There are some introductory classes that you can take, but to become like a proficient bicycle mechanic, there is no clear trajectory for that right now in BC and to some extent in the rest of Canada as well.

Peter Ladner6:22

And so you're involved with a campaign to change that. Uh, and the first thing you're going to do is a survey of all these bike shops, is that it? To find out what difficulties they're having or what issues they're having or what they would recommend?

Building The Canada-Wide Skills Survey

Zoé Kruchner6:37

Yeah, so at um this initiative we've actually just recently named ourselves the Canadian Bicycle Industry Skills Coalition. Our first step was actually to try to get the bicycle mechanic its own national occupation code in the national occupation classification system federally. So, right now, bicycle mechanics are lumped in with other occupations under the title Other Repairers. So this includes over a hundred different occupations that include things like Cordion Reparer and my favorite, which is spray gun repairer. Um, and so having no NOC code for bicycle mechanics specifically means that we just don't have any data about bicycle mechanics in Canada or very limited. And this was actually the first step that Rob in Ontario with a couple other folks put together this petition to establish a code for bicycle mechanics. And that is how I got in contact with Rob because I saw that petition cross my desk. And yeah, I just see that that there's that need if we're not counting bicycle mechanics as an occupation. It also makes it very difficult provincially to have kind of a skilled trade recognition or have support from the government for training programs. Um, so that was the initial first step. The national occupation classification is only updated every five years. And we had actually missed the deadline for the current update. So the next update is in 2031. But in the meantime, the federal government still read our submission and was still interested in how do we separate bicycle mechanics from other repairs and where would it fit in the classification system. And so we realized that for us to show the government the need for this change and also work with the different provinces and kind of figure out what exactly is going on, is to then create a workforce survey to better understand the state of play of bicycle mechanics as it is now in Canada. Um, and we're looking to gather data from bicycle mechanics themselves, so the workers and also the employers, so people who hire bike mechanics, you know, what are they looking for when they're hiring someone, as well as any uh kind of training provider. Uh, so there's like various different tiers of training. A lot of it is focused on the kind of DIY home mechanic, but we just want with the survey to really understand like who are bike mechanics, how are they learning their skills, what are the challenges, what are the opportunities? And so that's kind of that's been the progression of this initiative.

Peter Ladner9:49

So you, when you say Rob, you're referring to Rob McMonacle, and we'll put his contact in the show notes, but he just decided to take this on, and so is anybody funding this survey? You're just doing this out of the goodness of your hearts?

Zoé Kruchner10:05

Well, yes, right now, yes, which is why it's good for you. It's it's kind of tough because we're all doing this kind of off the side of our desk or or or workbench. I know Rob uh has a real keen interest in green jobs, and I think initially thought that bicycle mechanics would be an easy first step in terms of better classification for green jobs, and then I think sort of like pulled back the curtain and realized that it is actually quite complex because we have no Canadian bicycle industry association. The industry is really decentralized and there's no kind of common voice for this sector. And Rob is a really awesome person because he kind of just sunk his teeth into it and has kept going. And then I connected with him because I had been doing research in Vancouver and had kind of come to the same conclusions. But to be totally honest, I kind of got burnt out from doing it off the side of my workbench. And so I kind of had hung up the apron, so to speak, and then seeing Rob's petition uh was really reinvigorated to work together and make it kind of a national initiative.

Peter Ladner11:36

What will happen if you achieve your goal of having bike mechanics as a separate classification of jobs? What will be different?

Zoé Kruchner11:44

Well, the first thing is that we'll have better labor market data. And then the second thing is that without that better fit of classification, it's very difficult for us to get government funding and support. So, for example, Rob and I, totally separately before we met, came up to the same barrier of in each of our provinces. Rob is in Ontario, but here in BC, when I had originally started this research, I went to the Industry Trade Association, which I think is now renamed to Skilled Trade BC. This is a BC government organization or a Yeah, so they're the ones that oversee kind of apprenticeable trades. They were like, well, for us to create an apprenticeship for bicycle mechanics, we need all this data and da-da-da-da-da, and it needs to be government data. And so without that data, we can't really make that next step of providing clear certification and like a standardized training program.

Peter Ladner12:49

Well, let's assume that you've you get the data and the anek data, the anecdotal information is that there is a shortage and that there isn't no proper training.

Zoé Kruchner13:01

Yeah.

Peter Ladner13:01

Um what what would then what would happen? You would have there would be an apprentice program and like I understand in places like Denmark, it's quite an elaborate process, a multi-year process to be a qualified bicycle mechanic. And if that were to happen, if you were to get your data together and persuade in however many years these government agencies that this is a worthwhile and and legitimate job classification, would there be like subsidies for training, or would it be colleges be able to be able to now start offering this as a career path?

Pay Compression And Rising Complexity

Zoé Kruchner13:36

I'm hesitant to be too prescriptive without the data ahead of us, but there's lots of different pathways that we could take in terms of how to solve this issue. So, one, it could be that there is like a clear certification pathway that's done through existing vocational training organizations. So, for example, one thing that I personally think would be great, whether that's the the end result or not, is different, is having some sort of classroom classes at places like BCIT or VCC that provide some fundamentals for bicycle mechanics. And then being kind of like a subsidized apprentice in a bicycle shop where you are exposed to the full array of complexity of bicycles. So outside of a kind of standardized classroom setting, because I think that that kind of, you know, at the workstand, experiencing the true repair issues that people have is what provides more in-depth training and just putting in the hours of, you know, it's not just like an 80-hour classroom setting, but that you have like hundreds of hours of hands-on experience. And I think that that would really also help bike shops that are really struggling right now because for a shop to be able to train someone, you know, it's their more senior mechanic generally that is providing the training, but it's also the more senior mechanic that is the person who provides the most value to the service department, right? So if they're taken away from kind of the money-making work orders to train a new person who, let's be honest, may or may not stay for the whole season, that's a huge issue issue for bike shops because they're taking on the cost of training and they're already being squeezed in so many different ways. The the margins in bike shops are getting smaller and smaller every day. I mean, even in Vancouver, we've had four bike shops close in 2025. So that's kind of going further from your question.

Peter Ladner15:52

But um did they close because of this issue of not having the repair capacity?

Zoé Kruchner15:57

I I can't say if that's the sole issue. You know, it's um uh there's so many things intertwined here. There's like an affordability crisis, um, we have a wage crisis, bicycle mechanics are very poorly paid for the level of skill that they're what are they paid?

Peter Ladner16:14

Range.

Zoé Kruchner16:15

I mean, you're gonna start at minimum wage, and I think the maximum I've heard, but again, this is where we need the survey because this is kind of anecdotal, is like the low $30 an hour for someone who has like between you know over 15 years of experience.

Peter Ladner16:32

Wow. It's criminal that people would with that are expected to do high-tech work, technical work, are paid minimum wage. Like if a plumber comes to my house, they're getting paid like 10 times that. And is it becoming more difficult now to repair bikes with e-bikes and cargo bikes and all these complexities?

Zoé Kruchner16:52

That is a great question because basically the industry has become extremely complex. So uh when I started, you know, let's say 15 years ago, there were maybe like four bottom bracket standards. So bottom bracket is the part that connects your cranks to the to the frame and allows for that like forward pedaling motion. And now, I don't know, there's maybe like 25 standards. And so if you multiply that by all the different components on the bike, the body of knowledge that you need to know to be a proficient, efficient bicycle mechanic is huge now. And then on top of that, there's like e-bikes, batteries, all sorts of different micromobility devices that kind of come through our doors. Yeah, it's just it's a it's become a very difficult um or very complex profession.

Peter Ladner17:45

It's remarkable that with that level of complexity that the pay would be so low. But then when you get to the issue of of bike stores being strapped to make a mu uh to make a buck and survive, I can see it working in two directions. If you have better trained people who are trained outside the bike store, so it's not on the on the back of the bike store to train people, they save that money of that training time and the risk that they're gonna lose that person. But at the same time, they would probably be expected to pay a little more for that person when they come in fully trained. But I guess if they work efficiently, that they're gonna be worth more.

Repairs As A Pillar Of Mobility

Zoé Kruchner18:25

Yeah, I think for sure better pay, better training, and and better training would allow for that like efficiency and productivity that I see is a real struggle for that kind of entry-level bicycle mechanic. You know, you're you're if you're starting now, I think it's very difficult to see it as a viable career because it's not really viewed as like a respectable profession, right? And that's that's kind of echoed by the fact that it's like lumped in with this other repair category, which spray gun repair people, yeah. Yeah, which I mean, no, no, I don't want to look down at spray gun repairs, but it's just it's that other repair code is under a subcategory of building maintenance. So we're just like kind of misclassified, and it's not really viewed as the kind of viable career that it could be and that it should be based on your introduction. I mean, I was really happy with how you introduced this um this segment because I think that it is an often forgotten piece of the puzzle towards sustainable mobility. I see a lot of folks who would love to take up cycling, but their bike is in disrepair, or uh the cost of repair is too high, or in some instances, and we saw this really strongly during COVID, we were booking out repairs six to seven weeks. So that means you bring your bike in, and or you you are maybe even not even able to leave it at the shop. You have to bring it back when we have space. But if the turnaround time for a like a standard service is that long, then how are you able to depend on your bicycle as a mode of transportation?

Peter Ladner20:15

Uh especially when uh cycling and active transportation are at the top of many lists of our priorities for transportation.

Zoé Kruchner20:23

Yeah.

Peter Ladner20:23

And it's uh it's a little odd and ridiculous that we would be championing those means of getting around without addressing this core issue of but we have to repair these these vehicles. And also I would think it would classify as a green job that would be, I would assume, eligible for some kind of grants as part of a transition to a less fossil fuel-dependent economy.

Zoé Kruchner20:48

Yeah, it's it's just it's been, I think, uh underinvested for an extremely long time. And I think the hope that we have is by collecting that data and shining light on this, that we can get all the players lined up to introduce some change. What exactly that change will be, I think is a bit dependent on what we find from the survey. And the more we're talking about this, the more we have people kind of coming to us with ideas and other people we should speak to. And um, we're starting to have the like existing training organizations, yeah. Ears are perking up because I do think it's kind of a no-brainer, right? It's like investing in sustainable urban mobility, investing in local jobs. You're not outsourcing having your bike repaired to some other jurisdiction, right? It's like you're you're going to the closest bike shop to you.

Peter Ladner21:42

And there's no way that AI is going to fix that bike. Somebody's hands on the bike.

Zoé Kruchner21:48

Yeah, I mean, that's what I was telling students at UBC. I was like, if you want an AI proof job, come work as a bike mechanic.

Peter Ladner21:56

So if somebody's listening to this and going, right on, Zoe. Let's get on this. What can they do? Let's start with somebody who's in the business who has some information that they want to share. They would fill out the survey and they would get the survey through the link in our show notes.

Zoé Kruchner22:11

Yes. So the survey is hopefully going to come out next week.

Peter Ladner22:15

Which is the end of uh the middle of April?

Zoé Kruchner22:18

Like April 7th, yep. And then it'll be open for a month.

Peter Ladner22:22

Well, that's it.

Zoé Kruchner22:22

And yeah, that's our initial idea is that it'll be open for a month. And yeah, I mean, like with any survey, if we don't get enough respondents, the data is not as strong. So we really want people to fill out the survey. Um, that's kind of the first call to action. The second one, let's say you're in the industry but you're not a bicycle mechanic, you're not hiring bicycle mechanics, you're not a training provider. The petition for the national occupation classification is still open. It exists in French and English. Um the survey also exists in French and English, and people can still sign that petition. I I would say, like, if people have ideas or folks that they think we should talk to, even outside of the cycling industry, I think there's a lot that we can learn from other skilled trades, like how they are approaching their certification and kind of just getting involved by sharing information with us.

Peter Ladner23:22

We'll put those links on the show notes and people could contact you directly. Could we put your email up there?

Repairability Standards And Why It Matters

Zoé Kruchner23:29

Yeah, through the bicyclemechanics.ca is our website, and there's a contact form through there. And then that kind of just goes to all of us. There's less emphasis on, wow, I've had this bicycle or this whatever washing machine or whatever you have for 20 years. I think that if we can put more emphasis on that repair aspect, it's better for people's pockets, it's better for our environment. But there's also the fact that the industry is pumping out stuff that is not designed to be repaired, or they will stop manufacturing certain components. And so people are almost forced to buy new bikes.

Peter Ladner24:41

You know, I have a there's a guy, there's an old guy in our neighborhood who's got a garage in the lane and it's jammed with bike parts. And he's uh he's he's 80 years old, you wouldn't know it to look at him. But I took a kid's bike in to get him to repair it, and he repaired it, but he said, that is the last Canadian tire bike I will ever repair. Like this bike was not made to be repaired. You you know, nothing cinches up tight and the things don't match, and it's uh it's it's a killer to work on it.

Zoé Kruchner25:10

Yeah, I mean, there's some really interesting stuff coming out of um France. They have a um repairability index, which they've just recently for 2026 have included e-bikes into that index.

Peter Ladner25:26

Like particular brands are are graded according to the repairability?

Zoé Kruchner25:30

Uh bikes are graded, yeah. It's I basically to sell an e-bike in France, it has to come with uh uh repairability index grading.

Peter Ladner25:40

Wow.

Zoé Kruchner25:41

Yeah.

Peter Ladner25:43

Well, so okay, before we go, why do you what do you like most about bicycle mechanics? I mean, you're into this now. You're you're giving a lot of your life to it.

How To Help And Closing Notes

Zoé Kruchner25:53

Yeah why do you like it? I just think that it is a really great job to be able to go to work. Your task is to fix things, to keep people riding, to keep stuff out of the landfill. It is a very complex job. No two days are the same, no two bikes for the most part are the same. There's always something to learn.

Peter Ladner26:17

No flat tires are the same.

Zoé Kruchner26:19

Yeah, as I've discovered, yes. Yeah, I that's what I really love about the job. I'm I'm lucky to have worked in a lot of places where I've been really supported. I know it's not the case for a lot of folks entering the industry, but I think it's a great job. And especially as you mentioned with AI, a robot isn't gonna come and do my job.

Peter Ladner26:42

Good luck for you and and thank you for taking this on. And I really hope that people will respond and spread the word that the survey is out there and that if it were done properly or if we had enough people filled it out, we could get to the point where uh bicycle mechanics would be a recognized career path and paid better and deliver better results for the bike stores. And looping back to what I said at the beginning, enabling all of us to keep riding, which without repairs we can't do. Even with the help of YouTube, we're still going to need people like you. So keep at it. Yeah. And I really hope they fix my bike by tomorrow.

Zoé Kruchner27:21

I hope so too.

Peter Ladner27:22

Thanks. Thanks, Zoe.

Zoé Kruchner27:24

Thank you.

Peter Ladner27:32

You've been listening to Bike Dance, an original podcast from the BT Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.da.

Visit the website of the Canadian Bicycle Industry Skills Coalition (CBISC) to find out more: https://bicyclemechanics.ca

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Welcome

Peter Ladner 0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. As the provincial government is cutting back, or as they say, pausing, funding on active transportation grants around the province, today we're going to celebrate a project that used those grants to build the Schooner Way School Trail, a two-kilometer trail on Pender Island that is a remarkable success of bringing the community together and scrambling to get funding from all kinds of sources to match the provincial grant. The leader of that project since 2024 is Rob Fawcett. He's our guest today. Welcome, Rob.

Rob’s Riding Life And Roots

Rob Fawcett 1:03

Thanks for the invitation.

Peter Ladner 1:04

Rob, before we start the trail story, tell me about your latest bike ride.

Rob Fawcett 1:11

Well, I'm working on building some trails at a friend's property here. So I often get out on my mountain bike and just go out for a ride and kind of test those trails out. That was my latest one.

Peter Ladner 1:24

And you have a little bit of a background in mountain biking.

Rob Fawcett 1:27

Yeah, I've always been into mountain biking in particular. I lived a long time in Victoria, BC, where there's all the tradition of the mountain bike racers, mountain bike culture. And so for about 10 years, when I lived there, I did a Thursday night ride. It was a collection of old mountain bike racers, road racers that but would be on mountain bikes, and it'd be a three to four hour ride that would go all throughout the Saanich Peninsula and connect with all of the trails. And so that was a great thing to be a part of. But generally off-road trails are my thing. So in 2005-2006, I rode my bike around the world from I started in Vancouver and ended in Shanghai and took a plane across. So but that was on a mountain bike, and that's where I would try to find as many trails as possible and through like Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and um Turkmenistan. And then into China, into northwest China. It was like all on trails. And so yeah, riding my mountain bike on trails has been a huge part of my life. And then I've taken people on mountain bike tours. I've been guiding people, and I have my own company and in tours all over the world. So China, Mongolia, Morocco, Italy, and Canada. I had a partner from Italy and we would bring Spanish and Italian clients. And we designed a 10-day ride from Vancouver right downtown to Banff, where we would set up camps for them each night, and they would do 100 to 150K on their mountain bikes, and we designed it using a lot of the Trans Canada Trail, but other routes. Yeah, so riding a mountain bike on trails has been a huge part of my life. And we moved to Pender in 2018. Pender has an amazing number of parks. The CRD has 81 what we call parks and ocean accesses. There's a couple great national parks, but there's actually zero places on Pender Island where you can ride your bike on a trail. So that's something I kind of started working on as soon as I got here.

Peter Ladner 3:26

I could see how you would see that as a missing piece of your life. But just also, just another personal aside before we get into the trail itself, do you own or run a restaurant in Saanich?

Rob Fawcett 3:40

Oh yeah, my wife and I, so in 2011, I met my wife, and she had started a restaurant called Nourish Bistro in Saanich. Uh, and then we kind of worked on that pretty hard for a few years. And then we expanded it to Nourish Kitchen and Cafe downtown. So we had two restaurants. The little one in Saanich, we renamed Charlotte and the Quail. Um, and the Nourish Kitchen and Cafe became quite a successful restaurant downtown, which we sold in 2022, and it's still there. It's in an old 1888 heritage house. It's a great sort of iconic place in Victoria. And um, and that we still own Charlotte and the Quail, which we've now had for I guess almost 15 years. Yeah.

Peter Ladner 4:26

Well, I'm not going to get into how you find time to do all this stuff, but I will ask you.

Rob Fawcett 4:30

Well, that's a shout-out for my wife for the restaurant. She's the restaurateur.

What The Schooner Way Trail Solves

Peter Ladner 4:34

Uh I will ask you to describe this trail. Tell me what the Schoonerway School Trail is, looks like, feels like to ride on.

Rob Fawcett 4:44

Yeah, I mean, so about 90% of the population lives in Magic Lake. Is where this trail ends or starts, however you want to look at it. And there's about at least a kilometer section that's just a narrow road that you really couldn't get to, it's the only way in and out of Magic Lake. And you really couldn't walk it or bike it. You there was zero shoulder, the ditches were right there. It's kind of a kilometer, so it's kind of a high-speed way of people getting in and out, relatively high speed for pender, so like 50 kilometers, but they might go 60 kilometers. Um, but it was really pinched and really kind of not a pleasant way. So, and then the school is about just another, say, 700 meters around the corner, but zero kids would walk to school or bike to school. Like no, nobody would send their kids to walk or bike on this road. Some people would walk it or bike it, um, but it was a really, really, awkward situation, really uncomfortable. You never would do it for enjoyment. So that was one of the things. And then you come around the corner, and then yeah, the other section to the school was also extremely difficult to get there. So um, yeah, so basically we were able to take this main section and take it from a situation where the community would completely never use it to now it's turned into basically a linear park. Like a lot of people will come, a lot of older people on Pender. Uh, like I said, there's no real trails, there's a lot of good nature trails on Pender, but there's no actual place to sort of go for a walk where you can um be away from cars, beyond a trail. You'd have to be on the road if you wanted to do that. And all the roads on Pender are not really set up to have proper shoulders or anything. So you have to constantly concern yourself with cars. So a lot of older people wouldn't go out for walks like this, but they are now even. Kids are using it for biking on the road. It's become kind of a um, yeah, it's become like a park. It's pretty cool. And then the other cool thing is the people who are driving in on their cars now. I get lots of texts all the time from them saying, like, you know, I don't use the trail, but thank God we have this new trail because it's so nice to see people just comfortably walking, talking, coming in and out of our main area.

Peter Ladner 7:13

Rob, you've described how you turned a road into a linear park and still people are driving on it. Can you explain that? Did you have cars still able to go up and down the road as before?

Rob Fawcett 7:26

Yeah, so the trail is most of the time the trail is there's the road and now the ditch, and then the trail is off separate from the road. Yeah, it's three meters wide. So it's the standard sort of BC active transportation style. But basically, if I could kind of describe it for people, it was a Pender Island style road. For people who haven't been to Pender Island, I don't really know how to describe it other than that. But for portions of it, it has a power line there. And so what would happen is that they would just kind of keep cutting these little trees or cedars and they would look all kind of scraggly and they'd be underneath it. So we kind of clean that all up, and the trail kind of is along there. And then the properties that are there have these big, beautiful cedars, and all it feels much more like a park because now it's sort of the unkept part of it, if I could call it that, it is where the trail is now. And then you have these beautiful properties, and most of those properties, their houses are set way back on a hill, and it feels a lot more like a park.

Building Support Without A Municipality

Peter Ladner 8:30

So it's off-road. Yes. And now you had to mobilize a lot of people and a lot of money and a lot of organizations to get this to happen. Can you just tell us some of the people, some of the groups that had to be on side?

Rob Fawcett 8:44

Well, the key was the Pender Island Parks and Recreation Commission. So on Pender Island, we don't have a municipal government. We just have the island's trust, and we have CRD that does certain services.

Peter Ladner 8:56

And that's the capital regional district that includes Victoria and Saanich.

Rob Fawcett 9:01

Yeah, there's 13 municipalities and three electoral areas that make up the capital regional district and the Southern Gulf Islands. So Pender Island, Main Island, Galiano and Saturna are the southern main southern Gulf Island electoral area. So we don't really have a lot of discretionary income to be able to say, well, here we're the municipality and we have a certain amount of money and it will go, which the provincial government would require for these grants and that sort of thing. So what we had to do is we went out to our community and we asked them for pledges. So we went out and said, would you give money if we can get this BC Active Transportation grant? Not actually give us money yet, but just pledge that you would. And so we went out and got about 150,000 of that to start, and we went for the first $500,000 application with BC Active Transportation, and we received that, and then we went back to the community and collected the money. So it was not something that really is done on Pender, and that's really why we're on Pender, we're not able to do a lot of capital projects like this. So but it was a big commitment for the Pender Island Parks and Recreation Commission to take that on because it's just a small volunteer-run commission that has a little bit of tax requisition from the local community to manage our local parks. So it's not really set up to be able to take on such a large infrastructure project, but we kind of pushed the CRD staff locally and they got on board and then they were amazing to help make this happen.

Peter Ladner 10:36

What's the population of Pender Island? About 2,500. And you raised 150,000. So there would be individuals and businesses contributing to that?

Rob Fawcett 0:47

Yes, correct. So, like a lot of, you know, we kind of did a traditional model where you had a gold level sponsor, silver and and bronze, and those were more significant amounts. And then anything under that, we would have supporters. And so when we do our final kiosk, it'll kind of look like that. Like if you look at the Trans-Canada Trail there's the one in downtown Victoria or at the Switchbridge. And a lot of the local organizations, it was you know, our local pharmacy, our grocery store. I went to all of them, the coffee shop, the little restaurant, and they all contributed like bronze level sponsors or more. So that kind of helped. They all kind of stepped up.

Peter Ladner 11:28

Aside from just being good community citizens, do they see some kind of economic benefit in this? Is this part of a vision of bringing economic activity to Pender Island?

Opening Day And CRD’s Role

Rob Fawcett 1:41

So to give a greater overview, I kind of see there's three main sections on Pender where you need to fix from the ferry to where our driftwood is, our community center, like the grocery store and that local area. And then from there to the school, and then the school into Magic Lake. So the school into Magic Lake is where our population lives. And so that that was this aspect was very population-oriented, not necessarily tourism-oriented. But to give you a little more background on that, the reason why we did that is because the Capitol Regional District Regional Parks, their plan since 2018 has been to build a trail like this from the ferry to the school. The other reason why the local parks commission, why we decided to do this section, is because it was never in the plan. And so it would have been very strange because regional parks, when I guess when they make that plan, they don't really have it's more from a regional perspective. And then that could give you access to South Pender, but you'd miss out on you know 2,000 of us who live in this little area and have this kilometer where we could barely get in and out. So that it wouldn't have been a very effective overall plan. So that's why why we did that in the first place. So I don't know if this aspect, this section was a tourism-based, and I certainly didn't sell it that way. I sold it more so in terms of it's for our community. And the the cool thing that I've experienced is we certainly don't have a lot of tourists here now, but the trail is being used a lot, which is good. That's wonderful. When did it open? It opened like about a month ago. The first section was done, and people were using it probably two or three months ago. So it wasn't really like a grand opening per se. Like they got it workable and then they started adding like the bullards on the side and doing all those things. But people started using it probably about three months ago, even.

Peter Ladner 13:30

So that would be around January 2026, the beginning of the so right through the winter. No problem with the rain and bad weather.

Rob Fawcett 3:38

No, we don't get a like, I mean, Pender gets a third the amount of rain as as like North Vancouver, and we're kind of in the rain shadow here. And um it's probably as livable a place as anywhere, even on the West Coast. So not me to brag there.

Peter Ladner 13:54

You got this the Capital Regional District involved, but we hear from other places around the province that regional districts are reluctant to get into anything related to transportation because it's a bottomless pit. If they start to take it on, they don't really have that jurisdiction, they don't have the money, and they would like the province, particularly when it's a case of a highway, which this is not, of course. But how did you get the regional district involved? Is this something they do? Are they doing this in other places in the CRD or is this a new precedent for them?

Rob Fawcett 4:25

Well, the regional district since 2018 has had a Gulf Islands trail plan. The regional parks have planned to build out these trails on the Southern Gulf Islands including Salt Spring. So they have had that plan through their parks program to build these three-meter-wide BC active transportation style trails throughout there. Um they built one section on Maine Island. They've started that. So there was a commitment from the CRD to do these things. And as of last year, CRD has passed that they now have a transportation service, a regional transportation service. And so these trails may or may not go into that service, but the main focus of that, as far as I understand, the regional transportation service at this point is to upgrade the Galloping Goose, put lights on it, widen a certain area, and the Lochside Trail. So I do think in the long run we will fit into that service. And so I do think my feeling is that there seems to be a commitment from the CRD to take on with this new regional transportation service. But as of now, the build out of these trails is within the CRD regional parks division.

Peter Ladner 15:43

How important was the provincial active transportation grant?

Rob Fawcett  5:47

It was everything. It was the whole basis of giving us the chance to do this. So basically, like I said, we went out to the community and said if we want to do this, if you guys want to show support, then we could have a chance. You could give us the chance. And that was our only chance. So really there's you know, we were able to get the project done with everything in for just around $2 million. But that million from the BC Active Transportation was the core. Everything else was pieced together. But if you knew you had an opportunity for that, you could kind of make everything else work. So that's why it's quite tragic that at this point that really that opportunity, especially for places like ourselves where we can build trails, like we don't need huge trails here. We don't need massive kilometers or distance, we just need little ones. So they're not cheap to build here, nothing's cheap to build here. But for a million dollars, we can do something here. As far as how we build out on Maine and Galliano and Saturna, that definitely would have been part of the plan. And but we're just gonna have to re-figure that. But hopefully the CRD regional parks will also continue to step up because they do have that plan.

A Gulf Islands Network Vision

Peter Ladner 16:56

So well, we're gonna continue to pray that the pause really is just a pause and not a cancellation. And I like to remind people that the $150 million that's been spent on active transportation grants in the province in the last three years is the equivalent of about one kilometer of widening Highway One. And when you think about the way it impacts all these smaller communities in such profound ways, it really seems a shame that we can't have more of a let's just say accurate perspective on that. I want to pull back a bit, Rob. You mentioned some of these other islands, and we keep hearing about the Salish Sea Trail and Salt Spring and all this. Can you picture this as part of a bigger vision of some network of trails that all connects together through the Gulf Islands?

Rob Fawcett 7:44

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know the Gulf Islands, especially with e-bikes nowadays, because the Gulf Islands are quite hilly. They're quite small, especially our Salt Springs large, but the Southern Gulf Islands are quite small. And it would just be amazing to be able for the local people to get around on bikes, which generally they don't at this point. It's very, very rare for people to use bikes as their main source of transportation here because the accommodation is so bad at this point. But also for visitors, like we get most of our visitors in the summer, and to be able to come and visit these islands on a bike would just be sublime. And people, of course, do that now, but unfortunately, in most cases, they don't know what they're getting themselves into because the road conditions aren't set up for them. They're narrow, they're single-lane , often very steep ditches. Um, and they're just really, really windy and hilly. Unfortunately, like I said earlier, I've ridden my bike around the world, literally, and I always say that Pender Island is the worst place in the world to ride your bike.

Peter Ladner 18:53

Oh man.

Rob Fawcett8:54

Oh, which is unfortunate.

Peter Ladner 18:57

But I imagine, especially for someone like you, that would prompt a giant urge to fix that. And yeah.

Rob Fawcett 9:05

Absolutely, yeah. For sure. That's definitely what keeps me going. And then the fact that we've had such a great response and done what I would say the first third of that. Really, we just there's these three sections that need to be opened up. The rest of the island is fine. And that's why I say it's so bad, is because you have these pinch points where they're basically the main corridors. So everyone's using them, and they're they're they're just really really dangerous for especially moderate to inexperienced cyclists given the the slopes. You can get up to 20 degree slopes, and yeah, it's just quite dangerous.

Peter Ladner 19:53

Is the future of cycling on Pender going to depend on off-road routes, or is there a possibility that you could somehow share the road with motorists, which in so many other areas leads to conflict and problems?

Rob Fawcett 20:09

So the top coat of this trail is like it's called: it's a quarter-inch material that they roll on. That it really almost turns naturally almost turns into concrete, but it's not. It's just amazing material. They use it for all of the trails within the CRD that are like they think they have 200 kilometers. So the sections that aren't paved as you come out of the city on the lockside or on the galloping goose, this is a similar material. So it really works well. Like you can ride a road bike on it, you can, you know, push a baby carriage. It's pretty much the, in my opinion, as a mountain biker, I would be wanting to ride on that year-round more often than I want to be wanting to ride on the road anyway, because you know, those eight months of the year when it's raining, it's much better. You actually have a grip as well. And , but as far as it feels, you have no resistance in terms of riding. So, like I say, we probably have about six or seven kilometers that we actually need to fix here and have proper shared use off the side of the road trail. And that's really the option. So all of our roads are part of the Ministry of Transportation because we don't have a municipality. So that's another thing, too, is that we don't really have a lot of leverage for the Ministry of Transportation to do anything to our roads.

Peter Ladner 21:28

What would you like them to do if you did have leverage?

Rob Fawcett 21:31

But I don't think that there's really much they could do. They could try to redo these roads and make them wider with shoulders. That would be expensive. And realistically, the Ministry of Transportation is not going to do that. But then we still wouldn't really be able to walk or push our baby care to get around. So I think the off road separated shared use next to these main roads is the best for us because everybody can get around the island as opposed to even in the best. Case scenario if they widened the roads and made shoulders, then it would really only be for cyclists. And even then, I'd say they're off-road trails with better experience.

The Documentary And Indigenous Contractors

Peter Ladner 22:09

So Rob, you've dedicated a lot of your life and time to this, knocking on doors of businesses to get them to give money and so on. And I understand there's been a movie made about it that's coming out in late March.

Rob Fawcett 22:24

Aaron Powell Yeah. So we have a local, he's from Vancouver, like a lot of people were. And you know, my wife and I moved from Victoria. Charlie moved over here, him and his wife in 2018 as well. And he's a filmmaker. And I reached out to him about doing kind of like a little behind the scenes of this trail because it's kind of a unique scenario here where even the contractors that we happened to get were amazing contractors. The community just loved them. It was kind of a feel-good experience. And another part of that, just to jump over to the other thing, is that we were able to reuse the material from a Ministry of Transportation project on South Pender where they had to take down a rock. We were able to process and use that rock to build 95% of this trail. And so, but their contractors had access to all types of material. So they would they rocked out all these culverts really artistically, and it was just kind of a feel-good thing happening, you could see. So I kind of reached out to Charlie and we got together and he said he's gonna produce this documentary about it. So he filmed a lot of the building of it and then has done a lot of interviews with people. And I think it's gonna be a very compelling documentary just because it's very unique on Pender. And I think it's actually this experience that has brought a lot of different groups together.

Peter Ladner 23:45

And you've involved some indigenous groups, I understand, on the construction?

Rob Fawcett 23:49

Yeah, so the the contractors, called Coastal Wolf, is indigenous-owned. Um, and they like me. I just can't say enough good things about them. Like it's very strange. I'd have people come up to me all the time and say, those contractors are amazing. You know, like it's just so strange. And I don't know what it was about them or just the way that they conducted themselves, the work that they did, they're amazing. And they're going to be at the documentary. They we've got quite a bit of coverage of interviews with them as well to describe, you know, their experience of building it and and you know how people were like waving to them and cheering and that sort of thing, which they don't get when you know you're building like a tunnel in the city or something, right? It's not the same experience. So I think that they'd be quite interested in building out a lot more of these trails on the Gulf Islands.

Peter Ladner 24:40

And where will people be able to see this movie?

Rob Fawcett 24:45

We're gonna do a video release party at our pub here on Pender at seven o'clock on March 28th. And then after that, we're not a hundred percent sure where we'll release it. Uh, I'm gonna do, I think it's on April 2nd, I'm invited to do something with transportation on Gabriola, and they're gonna do a viewing of it as well. I might do one on Maine and Saturna and Galeano, and then we'll release it live. We'll release it somewhere. I'm not exactly sure where we'll do it, but hopefully it'll be on some Facebook site.

Peter Ladner 25:22

Yes, yes.

Rob Fawcett 25:23

Oh, definitely it will be. I'm not exactly sure when and where, but I'll let you know.

Peter Ladner 25:28

So, Rob, what's next for you?

Rob Fawcett 25:31

Well, like I mentioned earlier, I've recently been appointed as the alternate director for the CRD for the Gulf Islands, um, for the Southern Gulf Islands, sorry. Paul Brent is the director and he lives on Saturna Island. And um I assume he appointed me because he's he's I can show that I can get things done here. So that's yeah, that's been a big focus trying to figure out the next sections of those trails. So I want to finish off from the ferry to the school. So those I like I say, I call those two different sections, one from the ferry to the driftwood, we call it, and the driftwood to the school. So we're working on that. Moving around Pender, which I mentioned earlier, is a society that can hold liability insurance on behalf of private landowners so that you can have a community trail. And there's one section of that that I was speaking about earlier that has two big farms. And both of those farm owners have agreed to move with this organization to be able to build a trail on their farms. And so that's actually what we're gonna do now. Um, we're gonna be using local contractors. The Coastal Wolf's kind of set the bar high for what it is that we would want these kinds of trails to be like. And so we're gonna start doing them from a non-governmental perspective to kind of do that section. So that's kind of our next project this summer, is hopefully to be able to connect another main part of Pender.

Peter Ladner 27:01

Do you depend on provincial AT grants to do the rest of what you've just described?

Rob Fawcett 27:08

So we have about 450 loads of that rock left over from that dip project that they call that they've left for us. So we have a lot more rock. And like I say, if we do it in this moving around pender model, that as long as the landowners agree, which they have, then we can just use community resources and we can build these trails for a fraction of what we would need to in terms of like the government model. It doesn't necessarily involve the Ministry of Transportation and all. So that's one approach we're gonna take and see how we can do with that to build out these sections in that model. And then perhaps later they'll be brought into this sort of permanent model as well. But that's one approach we're gonna take. And part of that is because, like you say, we don't have access to the BC Active Transportation grants again. So I think that quite honestly, if we did that, if there was another opportunity, we as the community would step up again and we could raise more money and we could keep going. But as you said, that's been canceled. So we have to be a little more resourceful.

Peter Ladner 28:15

Well, Rob, you have definitely demonstrated what being resourceful means. And it's great we talk a lot in the cycling community about how when you get on your bike, you create community and you stop and talk to your neighbors and buy coffee and stuff. But the aspect that you've mentioned where the creation of a bike route brings a community together as never before is pretty neat. And I'm very pleased to hear that. And I'm curious, I want to go to Pender Island and see this trail and enjoy the community and appreciate the work that you've done to be such a big part of that. So thank you.

Rob Fawcett 28:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're welcome to any time. And like I say, when we do finish off to the ferry, that will be so that people really can truly enjoy it, right? You know, that they can get off through that main corridor, come into Magic Lake, and then get out. There's just so many smaller roads to get off of that main corridor as well. So hopefully, you know, in the next few years we can get there and it'll be pretty intuitive and a nice place to visit by walking or biking, or you could literally come and walk. You can come to Pender Island with a backpack and you could just walk for the weekend and get to your place. And there's no real reason. The whole col the whole main area is you know five, six kilometers. So it's a great way to do it. But no, you couldn't really before it was not set up for that, but we will get there.

Peter Ladner 29:42

Well, we wish you the best, and , I hope that people listening to the podcast will take some encouragement from this and some examples of what you can do, and maybe we can get you to our um active transportation summit in Victoria on October 28th to 30th, and you can share this story with others.

Rob Fawcett 29:59

Yeah, I'll be there.

Peter Ladner 30:00

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BT Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.latner at bccycling.da. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca.

Rob Fawcett is a community builder on Pender Island who helped transform a dangerous, shoulderless road into a 2-km off-road, multi-use active transportation corridor. 

We sat down with Rob to hear how one Gulf Islands community raised $150,000 in pledges to unlock a BC Active Transportation grant and built something that kids can bike to school on and older residents can actually enjoy. Some are calling it Pender Island’s new linear park. 

Rob breaks down what it takes to deliver trail infrastructure on an island with no municipal government, where roads belong to the Ministry of Transportation, and big capital projects almost never happen. We also zoom out to the bigger vision: a connected network of shared-use trails across the Gulf Islands that could transform how people get around by bike, on foot, or by e-bike. And with provincial active transportation funding now 'on pause,' Rob shares what comes next, and why this community isn't waiting around.

Official Announcement of the Schooner Way Trail Opening

Read about the Trail in The Pender Post here.

Cycling culture doesn’t magically appear when you paint a bike lane. It shows up when someone learns how to balance, brake, scan, signal, and ride with confidence in the real world.

Alexis Thibeault, StreetWise Manager at HUB Cycling, joins Peter to dig into what cycling education looks like in British Columbia right now and what’s still missing. We talk about the earliest building blocks of learning to ride, and how structured coaching creates a safer path for adults who didn’t grow up biking.

What would it take to make cycling safety education as normal as driver training or swim lessons? 

Find out more about HUB's Bike Education initiatives HERE.

Welcome And Why Education Matters

Peter Ladner 0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Building a cycling culture is more than just providing protected routes for cyclists. Those of us who are experienced cyclists take it for granted that we know how to ride the bike, we know how to get around, we know the rules of the road, but we didn't always know that. We had to learn it. And in order to learn that, there have to be some kind of programs. And in order for the cycling culture to really flourish, we have to figure all that out, provide the routes and the programs. And one of the people who is deeply involved with that is Peter Ladner, my guest today. She's the streetwise manager for Hub Cycling. Welcome, Alexis.

Learning To Ride Starts Somewhere

Alexis Thibeault 1:04

Thank you for having me.

Peter Ladner 1:05

I'm going to start with my standard question. Tell me about your latest bike ride.

Alexis Thibeault 1:10

Um, the latest bike ride, it was about a month ago, and it was just to and from the office. So kind of nice. I live at the top of the hill in Vancouver in East Van, so a nice ride down to the office and then a bit of a hard ride up from the office, but that's all right.

Peter Ladner 1:29

Let's go back to the beginning. How did you learn to ride a bike yourself?

Training Wheels Versus Balance Practice

Alexis Thibeault 1:33

That's a good question. I learned as a wee child in the 90s  in Newfoundland, actually, from my parents, um, in the you know, traditional 1990s style of having training wheels and then having your father push you on the bike and then let go secretly. And  I honestly don't think I'm lucky, I don't remember learning to ride a bike because it was such a thing that we did. Like my parents did huge bike rides all throughout my childhood. We would regularly do 10K, 15k, 20k, even when I was pretty young, um, just around the community. So I remember going on bike rides much more than I remember actually learning as a child.

Peter Ladner 2:20

Do you believe in training wheels?

Alexis Thibeault 2:23

Personally, they have their purpose. There, they can have issues though. It does create a bit of an issue when it comes to finding your balance. And I do find that having a strider and using your feet more is almost like frog pedaling, so like pushing off with two feet at the same time, as opposed to you see a lot of people using one foot, then the other foot, then one foot, then the other foot. It's actually best to use both feet at the same time to push off and try to glide without your feet touching. And I find that that is a really good way to get your balance when you are first learning. So training wheels unfortunately aren't the best for that, but they do serve their purpose for people who are still a little bit hesitant when it comes to getting that balance.

Hub Programs From Toddlers To Seniors

Peter Ladner 3:10

When you talk about striders, I think immediately about the Kids on Wheels program, which the BC Cycling Coalition ran for quite a while for preschoolers to do exactly what you've just described. It's now been taken over by Hub. Can you just walk me through the range of cycling education that Hub offers? And I know there are a few other significant players in the field, but just start with what Hub does.

Alexis Thibeault 3:33

Yes, as you said, there are a few folks who are offering education as well. But HUB Cycling does offer now with us taking over the Kids on Wheels program. We pretty much offer education from age two to age 92. Most of our programs are small group programs. So for our kids on wheels programs, it's about 12 to 15 children and then they range into our like to school programs, and those are usually for a classroom because of course they usually occur in a school setting. We also are branching out into camps, so again, about 12 to 15 students in those camps. And we're even doing a high school pilot this year. Again, that's about classroom sized, and then of course, leading into our adult small group programs. So those usually have 12 to 18  participants max, depending on the program and depending on the amount of instructors. But yes, all ages.

Peter Ladner 4:28

How old is the oldest student you've ever taught?

Alexis Thibeault 4:31

I want to say she's 85. I can cross-check that. I do know we have had at least one 85-year-old. Um if she was the oldest, then yes, definitely 85 would be our oldest student. Um, we may have had somebody older, but I can confidently say at least 85.

Peter Ladner 4:49

She started learning cycling at 85?

Alexis Thibeault 4:53

She had learned as a child and then kind of forgotten, and then she started with an e-bike, which we are seeing a lot more  in folks who are especially older and wanting to get back on the cycle. Having an e-bike really helps.

High School Riding And E-Bike Rules

Peter Ladner 5:07

Interesting. I want to go back to the high school students for a moment. When my kids were at high school, it was not cool to ride a bike to school. And that was the determining factor. They had bikes, they had the opportunity, there was a route to school, but they said it was about when after school you'd have to push them around while everyone else was walking, and it was awkward. Is it cool to bike to school now?

Alexis Thibeault 5:30

Depends on the school, and I think it depends  where you are in the province. I think in the city, it's become maybe not cool, but at least acceptable. Like it's not cool. , but it is one of those forms that is a lot more useful, I think, in some cities, especially we're very lucky here in Vancouver to have the milder temperatures. So we do see a lot of folks using it just as a more commuter form, including high school students. , so less about being cool and more about being convenient. There are folks, especially high school students, who it is more convenient for them to bike to school. Um, I know my  own high school students, my stepkids, they personally will bike from um their mom's place, but not from their dad's place because of the hills. So that's a factor too. It depends on where you are  in the city and how many hills are in between.

Peter Ladner 6:27

Do you think high school students need e-bikes? Or I've heard parents say enough already that let them ride on their own. They're strong, they're young, they don't need e-bikes.

Alexis Thibeault 6:37

Well, in NBC, it is important to note that the legal age for e-bikes and e-scooters is 16 plus. , but if they've reached that 16 plus age, , I don't see a problem with it as long as they are actually following the rules of the road, which of course is the key thing to make sure you are  using the rules of the road appropriately and cycling appropriately.  that there is a big rise of micromobility in high schools right now as well. So e-scooters, we're seeing a lot of those, and it's the same thing.  it's got to be 16 plus, and it has to be if you are going to do it, obey the law and use the rules of the road.

Peter Ladner 7:14

Well, when you speak about obeying the law, I know there are a lot of under-16s who are out there on their e-scooters. And I don't know, that's another issue for another topic.

Who Learns Without Family Support

Peter Ladner 7:23

Um tell me about um how most people learn. They can't all be taking your courses. Um, what do you know about is everybody or is the major are the majority of people out there with mom or dad pushing them along the sidewalk until they get their balance and then off they go?

Borrower Bikes And Access Barriers

Alexis Thibeault 7:40

I think it really depends on the person. , a lot of people are able to have that wonderful experience where their dad or their mom are pushing them, but a lot of people aren't able to because we don't, we don't really see it. But to have a bike can be a privilege in a way. Um, so there are a lot of folks who aren't able to afford a bike or aren't able to have that experience with their parents. And that is kind of where our adult and youth programs come in. But I think the vast majority of people are trying to learn that way. But for those who can't, that's where our courses kind of come in, especially for adults who weren't able to learn as a child and really want to start a commuter cycling journey. Um, that's where our courses really come in and are very helpful.

Peter Ladner 8:27

And do you supply bikes to people who sign up for your courses?

Alexis Thibeault 8:30

We do for the duration, not forever, but for the duration of the course. Yes, we do have bikes that they can borrow.

Taking Education Province-Wide

Peter Ladner 8:36

And just remind me, because I know that back to my question about being cool to ride to school, in some parts of the province, a lot of the kids are into mountain biking. And of course, they've got the mountain bikes, so why not just take them to school? And  it occurred to me that that might be a factor in people riding. How far across the province do your educational programs stretch?

Alexis Thibeault 9:00

Well, hub cycling, , all of our education is now technically province-wide. We do have our Everyone Rides Grade 4-5 school program that has branched all the way up  Prince George, all the way on the island, , over to the Kootenis. So we do have, we've been very lucky to be able to expand our programs that way. Um, and we're even we were able to fund some local e-bike education over the past couple of years as well. , so that will be more adult e-bike education. And we had courses that were funded through organizations such as Kootenay Mountain Biking,  such as Elevation Outdoors. , we were able to fund their courses in Kelowna, and and again, the Kootenai's High Deguay Recreation as well was able to take advantage of that funding. So basically, Hub is pretty well all over in various levels, and we are trying to expand it as much as we can.

Peter Ladner 9:56

You used to have a program that I participated in where new immigrants to this, in our case, Vancouver, would sign up who wanted to learn to cycle, and they were given bikes that they could keep. And I remember mustering in a parkade somewhere, and all these bikes were scattered around. And I was assigned to a woman, she was 60 years old, she recently arrived from, I believe, Iran. She had cycled a little bit as a kid. Her husband was sick, she knew she was gonna have to be more independent. She just wanted to ride the seawall. That was her dream. And we found her a bike, but my goodness, she was not a natural cyclist. Every time she came to any kind of a barrier or saw a car, she panicked. She was falling off that bike. I was terrified she was going to injure herself. We eventually did the thing that I know you do in your classes. You go to a safe area, a big sort of parking lot with no cars in it, nobody moving around, and just work at going around and turning and braking. Tell me about the most inspiring moment you've had teaching perhaps somebody like that.

Alexis Thibeault 11:01

 it's very apt that you use that story because that is probably very similar to one of the most inspiring cases that I've had.  also a woman also coming from a country where women were not allowed to ride bikes, um, who was in her 60s, and she ended up going from a beginner to an advanced in the span of a year by taking pretty much every single one of our courses. , so she started in beginner bike skills, moved on to our  six-week programs, moved on to our intermediate programs and our e-bike programs, and then eventually was taking guided rides and seeing her smile from the beginning, where she just was first able to get her balance to seeing her helping other participants with their balance and telling her a story of I could do it, you could do it, like almost made me cry. Um, so and that's just one. There's been so many, predominantly women who have come to our courses who either because they were from a different country or because a lot of times actually they were just too busy or lived in an area where cycling wasn't as accessible when they were growing up, um, they were they just weren't able to learn. And unfortunately, a lot of times it is also a gendered reason. There were a lot of people whose parents wouldn't let them learn. Um, so seeing these women in particular coming to our courses at the age of 60, at the age of 70, and learning to ride and seeing their faces transform into that of a child learning to ride for a brief second is absolutely one of the best parts of my job.

Peter Ladner 12:57

I know in music that there are different views on whether everybody can sing in tune. And some people say you just have to keep practicing and you'll eventually learn it. Are there people, in your opinion, who will never be comfortable riding, who just have some kind of inherent balance problem that it's just they're never going to progress and they might as well not do it?

Alexis Thibeault 13:19

Not necessarily accurate, um, because I think everybody can ride. It just might be maybe not everybody can ride on two wheels. Um, and I personally am a huge trike advocate because a lot of people just aren't able to get that core balance. And if that's the case, if it's something that you personally cannot get over just due to any form of physical disability, that doesn't mean you can't ride in any way, shape, or form. Um, and I believe trikes or even  quads are underutilized in our society, especially now that we have e-trakes, etc. So if that is something that you need for your cycling journey, that's fine. But at the same time, I have seen people who have inherent balance issues get over it through taking our courses multiple times. One of our most popular courses by far is our beginner bike skills course. And with that beginner bike skills course, you can take it as many times as you need to. So we have had folks who have struggled with that internal balance and then gotten it just almost like a breakthrough on week four or five of them taking this particular course by having that constant instructor monitoring and having that safe space in which to practice. Sometimes it just requires persistence and patience, and then your body just finally breaks through and gets it.

Online Rules Of The Road Learning

Peter Ladner 14:44

Hopefully without too many falls, because there's no hopefully without too many falls. There's no easy bike fall. How effective is online learning? I know you've got online courses for nine to 12 year olds and older people and so on, , and I think they're free. Um but do people use those and are they effective?

Alexis Thibeault 15:03

I think they're effective for a different purpose. So not for learning to ride a bike. I think that is something that you inherently have to do. However, for learning something like the rules of the road, learning the classifications of e-bikes, learning what parts of the province have what road rules where you can cycle in certain parts of the province, where you can use e-bikes in certain parts of the province, all of that can be learned online. And even little things like learning the ABCs of cycling, checking your air, checking your brakes, checking your chain. You can learn that through an online system. But physically learning,  from the get-go, I believe you should do outside.

Peter Ladner 15:46

I would be remiss if I didn't  use this opportunity to plug the BC Cycling Coalition's Bike Sense  online manual that has all you need to know about the rules of the road, how to pick a bike, how to ride properly, how to take make a left turn, a right turn, ride down the middle, ride down the side, not on sidewalks.

Alexis Thibeault 16:05

We we do utilize that actually in some of our courses if we are able to get  the the physical booklets we have utilized in many of our courses. So I love that resource.

Cycling As A Core Life Skill

Peter Ladner 16:16

Well, we are looking at getting back to the physical booklets because we used to give them out at bike stores and at events and so on. And people really like there's something about a physical, a physical book. Do you think cycling education is a basic human skill, sort of like learning life skills, sort of like learning to swim, that everybody should really learn just as a part of being a complete human being?

Alexis Thibeault 16:42

I would love it to be. I think it is definitely it's very societally dependent. We are very lucky in Canada that we do have a society where many people can learn to ride a bike. And I think it should be prioritized much more in the school system. And as we move  further into environmental uncertainty, like having a bike as a form of transit that you can utilize into the future that is a carbon neutral alternative is extremely important. So I don't think it is treated currently like a core human life skill, unfortunately, but I think it should be when it can't be.

Funding The Work Behind The Scenes

Peter Ladner 17:22

Yeah, I think I would agree. Um I just want to at this point  mention some other organizations that are providing bike education in BC. Cycling BC in particular has their hop-on program for kids, and they're saying they've reached 65,000 kids. Um the pedalheads organization, which I didn't only recently learned, was started in Vancouver by Claudia Schuberg 35 years ago. It has locations in 250 places around North America. And they do, of course, they started as a swimming organization, but I think pertinent to my further my previous question, they realize swimming and cycling are kind of basic skills that everybody might want to know. And  so they offer summer programs, they offer  camps, all kinds of things. As do I know Hub.  you've got a spring camp coming up. Yours is almost 500 bucks, theirs are free. How do you deal with funding? You've got to go out and find, of course, you would like to offer yours for free. And I know that kids on wheels, that BC Cycling Coalition did, we tried to keep the cost down and we just lost so much money on it, it was impossible.  how do you find funding? Where do you find funding and what are your future prospects for continued funding? I know you get some from the provincial government.

Alexis Thibeault 18:41

Yes, we do. Um, and but it is, as you say, extremely varied.  so because we have so many different types of programs, a lot of them have different funders. So, for example, the camps that you were just mentioning, , those are completely self-funded, hence the higher price. However, our bike to school programs, where we go into the actual schools and teach um on a grade level, are free to the schools because they, for the vast majority, are funded either by the province or by the municipalities themselves, of which we're going to. So for my programs, , which is more the adult programs, we are funded again through the province. , we've been funded through the federal government, which has been lovely, through the Zero Emissions, the National Resources of Canada Zero Emissions Fund. , we have also been funded municipally through the city of Vancouver, through Richmond, through Coquitlam. I can't even list them all because then I would just be listing all of the lower mainland. Um, but basically through all the municipalities in the area. But we do have a bunch of different sponsorships as well. So we've had good contracts with BCAA and with their Evolve program, with Lime Bike Share, lots, basically anywhere we can get the funding, we will get the funding. , and of course, that does include grants as well. So we've applied and have received the Vision Zero grant. We've applied and have received the Richmond Community Foundation grant. Um, and I'm not gonna lie, finding funding is a very large part of my job. Um, my passion is in delivering education, but unfortunately, like many folks, I do have to do the grunt work of finding the funding to deliver said education. So we're currently on the hunt for newer grants or newer partnerships  in order to keep our programs at a lower cost. The hunt is just ongoing.

Peter Ladner 20:36

I know you get a significant amount of money from the provincial government through the Ministry of Transportation and Transit. And are there other ministries involved? Education, maybe?

Alexis Thibeault 20:46

It is just the Ministry of Transportation and Transit. We have approached the  ducation before. Um I wasn't involved in those conversations, so I'm not sure how exactly they went, but  it is at this time the just the Ministry of Transportation and Transit.

Better Education And Global Benchmarks

Peter Ladner 21:01

Which, alas, seems to be losing its fervor for active transportation for the moment, let's hope. Um, you're an educator. We often hear that those damn cyclists don't know the rules of the road. They're blowing stop signs, they ride around without lights, they ride on sidewalks, and  you can just go get an e-scooter with no education at all and head out into the street. What would you recommend to fix that situation?

Alexis Thibeault 21:31

 definitely more education in more aspects. So I would love to have more cycling education utilized at places such as ICBC. They do have some pretty good cyclist education, but just more, more knowledge and hitting up more high schoolers. Because again, as we were talking about before, high schoolers do utilize active transportation a lot more. However, they can also be the ones who are not legally doing it correctly, unfortunately. So getting that education in the high schools, which is why we're really excited for our high school pilot this year. So I think it's just having more avenues of education. Because again, we run into situations where everybody learns differently. So having an online resource as well as a verbal lesson in school, as well as a physical lesson at a community center, all of those will reach different people at different times in their lives to increase their ability to cycle.

Peter Ladner 22:33

You must have looked into this somewhat. Is there a gold standard for cycling education, some country that does it really well and has it all figured out that we should be looking to?

Alexis Thibeault 22:44

One of the programs that I love that is Canadian is Velo Quebec, which is a fantastic  education system that is funded by the provincial government of Quebec as well. And their programs, I feel like they've been able to reach the vast majority of the population through having programs, like I was saying, for different ages and in different styles. So Velo Quebec, I believe, is one of the gold standards. There are across the board a few countries that also stand out. Um, Australia has some pretty good education, , the UK has some pretty good education as well. But again, it does seem to be something that even across different countries tends to be like county organized or provincially organized or state organized. So the state of California has some really great cycling education, but I wouldn't say the US altogether has amazing cycling education, if you know what I mean.

Peter Ladner 23:45

I think I do know what you mean. Or even or even organized right down to the community center or some little local church group or something, I'm sure does something. Alexis, I thank you so much for  sharing your knowledge and information with us. And  I I know that this is really important to get that education piece in place, because otherwise we will not achieve the potential possibilities. And I'd like to keep coming back to the fact that this is not about us and some kind of ideological crusade. This is giving people the opportunity to have a better lifestyle that's more affordable and more fun and provides them a better way to get around in many instances.

Alexis Thibeault 24:26

Exactly.

Peter Ladner 24:27

So thank you for your participation in that. So I hope you keep paying your bills, and even more so, I hope you keep exercising your passion and delivering those wonderful results.

Alexis Thibeault 24:37

Thank you very much.

Peter Ladner 24:46

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca

A city once redlined by a plan that literally read 'No Bike Routes Downtown' now leads Canada in cycling mode share, and ranks among North America’s best cycling cities. We sit down with Tim Hewett, Senior Transportation Planner and Streetscape Designer for Victoria, BC, to unpack how a compact capital stitched regional trails into a safe, welcoming urban network that people actually use daily.

We start with the pivotal gap: regional corridors like the Galloping Goose and Lochside Trail once ended at the edge of the core, leaving riders to fend for themselves. The new Johnson Street Bridge and the first protected corridor on Pandora changed all that, and there's much more to come. 

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A couple of GREAT videos:

Rolling in the City: a Video Tour of Victoria with Nic Laporte

Oh The Urbanity! How This Small City Tripled Its Cycling In Just 11 Years

Find out what's going down at:
Capital Bike Victoria: Advocate. Educate. Celebrate

Support the show

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The Bike Sense podcast with Peter Ladner is produced by the BC Cycling Coalition – your voice for safer and more accessible cycling and active transportation in British Columbia. 

Got feedback or ideas for future episodes? Please drop us an email at admin@bccycling.ca.

Peter: 0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. In 1995, the City of Victoria's first cycling network plan had a border around the downtown with four words written inside that border. No bike routes downtown. Last year, the City of Victoria declared itself the cycling capital of Canada, and some would argue the cycling capital of North America. What the heck happened? To answer that question, I have with me today Tim Hewitt, who's a senior transportation planner and streetscape designer for the city, and he's going to tell us what has been going on in Victoria over the last decade that has transformed this city from a cyclist point of view. Welcome, Tim.

Tim: 1:10

Hi, Peter. Thanks for having me.

Peter: 1:12

So is Victoria really the cycling capital of Canada? Is it is it more cycling, whatever, than Montreal?

Tim: 1:21

It's a bit of a nuanced question because the scale of Victoria is very different than the scale of Montreal. Victoria is a small city with municipal boundaries of five kilometers by five kilometers. And uh, you know, we we cheat a little bit with our mild climate and our gentle topography and our wonderful land use that we have. So currently, statistically, we do have the highest cycling ride mode share in Canada. That mode share currently and growing is 13% by bike, but a large portion of active modes facilitate a 44% mode share, which a lot of that is is pedestrian traffic in the in the downtown.

Peter: 2:01

So if you put together the pedestrian trips and bike trips by all manner of micromobility, I assume, you get to 44% of all trips?

Tim: 2:13

That's correct. 44 of all trips by walking, rolling, and cycling. And those are CRD origin and destination findings from 2002. CRD is the capital regional district. That's correct. So that yeah, the new origin and destination study that will come out will likely see that number bump up a little bit, which is exciting.

Peter: 2:32

So you haven't just experienced a decline in cycling as many regions have since COVID?

Tim: 2:37

No, we've seen an increase in cycling ridership. And we've actually been seeing a decrease uh in vehicle trips. And there was a decrease in transit-related trips during COVID, but that's back to pre-COVID levels, which is good to see.

Peter: 2:52

Tell me about the regional network, because Victoria, of course, is surrounded by other municipalities, the capital regional district, and your population is about 100,000. And when they're all added, it's about 400,000. But unlike many suburbs, they are very cycle-friendly and they have a very high rate of cycling use and transportation. Can you talk about why that is and how that feeds into the city of Victoria?

Tim: 3:18

Yeah. So once again, the capital regional district is, you know, the south, southern kind of corner of Vancouver Island. And it does include 14 different local governments. Um, within the core of Greater Victoria, we're surrounded by other municipalities. And so generally, uh there's this wonderful baseline that the the Greater Victoria and the CRD has, which is this regional trail network that has evolved from what were old rail lines to now multi-use trails. So there's a really wonderful baseline that the municipalities can build off of. And so those two corridors are the Lockside Multi-Use Trail, which was established in 2001 and is 29 kilometers long. And then the other one uh is even older. It was established in 1989, and it's the Gallup and Goose Regional Trail at 55 kilometers.

Peter: 4:14

So just to explain to people who don't live in Victoria, the Lockside Trail goes from the basically this the Swartz Bay Ferry Terminal right into downtown. And the Esquamo one also goes right into downtown, and they come into both of them come into the Johnson Street Bridge, which sounds pretty pivotal to this whole exercise because it didn't used to be that bike friendly. Tell us about how it's that that little node has evolved.

Tim: 4:39

Yeah, I to be honest, you're getting ahead of yourself by saying it went into the downtown. It kind of came to the edge of downtown. And so culturally, there was this wonderful facility, and um, you know, people pursue an active lifestyle here. There was a lot of commuters choosing cycling as that way to get in and out of town. But as they got to the downtown, those facilities kind of slowly disappeared. And so the Galloping Goose Regional Trail, it ended at a road called Harbor Road, which was had no cycling facilities. It was, you know, an industrial corridor with you know different uses and obviously, you know, not having that higher quality or even protection uh to facilitate a cycling connection from the end of the Galloping Goose to get into downtown. And then same with the uh with the lock side, there's another trail too. It's called the E&N. Um and so that also terminated at uh a street, a squamalt road, that would then not have the extra length to get you safely into the downtown core. And so you had noted earlier uh in your opening statement of no bike routes downtown. And so the first, I guess, kind of piece of infrastructure that really uh provided the opportunity to establish those connections was the investment in a new Johnson Street Bridge. The old Johnson Street Bridge had no cycling connections. There was a railway that I recall biking on, and you'd be looking through the tracks down at the ocean below. And I've done that. Yeah, it wasn't definitely not intended for cycling use, but you know, there was a rail corridor, and that rail service slowly uh kind of ceased to exist and it became kind of an ad hoc cycling route. But I'd say, you know, that was the opportunity of these regional trails coming to the city was wonderful, but the the design gap was that those facilities didn't come to the downtown, which is you know the core of the the CRD and kind of you know the heart of economic activity and the destination that commuters would be looking to go to.

Peter: 6:39

So we talked about the no bike routes downtown, and now you've explained the feeder routes that are put actually putting pressure on the need for those bike routes. The city obviously went beyond that 1995 plan. What was their new plan? And just can you just also describe what it was like? I know that in 2017 you built out the Pandora bikeway, and and just tell tell me about that experience.

Tim: 7:05

Okay, so 1995, we had our no roots downtown plan, which you know is kind of comical looking back at now. In 2014, there was a review of the cycling network. So that's you know, arguably a 10-year or 20-year gap. And that was led internally by staff, engineering and planning, and a lot of consultation with the neighborhoods and community members. And I'd say the biggest outcome of that consultation was the acknowledgement that cycling facilities need to accommodate all ages and abilities. In 2015, there was a new mayor, Lisa Helps. She uh wanted to advance how we can invest in cycling infrastructure. So it was kind of interesting. I was working as a consultant, and my colleagues were developing and working with the uh the city to kind of unpack what it would look like to kind of move forward, getting the right people to establish and review the network. And so there was a team that was brought together that supported recommendations on prioritizing a network, establishing lines on a map that would be prioritized as all ages and ability corridors, and really informing some of the kind of high-level guiding principles that would guide investments uh in cycling infrastructure. I got a job as the city to manage that process and those consultants and develop the plan, which was really exciting. Um, we took that plan forward to council. And so that was uh an outcome of this kind of 2014-2015 review of the outcomes from actually a 2011 consultation, where essentially lines on a map were rejigged based on some of these kind of opportunities and uh guiding principles. And the the network plan was approved in 2016 by council, and Pandora, as you mentioned, was the first project that was identified for construction. Now, Pandora was an interesting one, and it was designed in context of the bridge design, the Johnson Street Bridge, which included a big, wide multi-use path on the north side of the bridge. And so the Pandora design was a two-way bike lane on the north side of the street that would then directly connect into uh this bridge connection.

Peter: 9:25

So, what was it like being the project manager on the first project that broke through that no bike routes downtown barrier?

Tim: 9:32

It was kind of interesting. So, literally, it was kind of day two. I was like grabbed and introduced to all the senior leadership team and kind of told I was going to run this project as the project manager and had this meeting, kickoff meeting with a very diverse team, all of our senior leadership team, all these wonderful consultants from different areas of the world. And we were establishing kind of two things at once. So, one was the Bictoria plan, and then concurrently with that was the detailed design for the Pandora Corridor, which had already been approved by council. So, as much as the plan was establishing the different alignments throughout the city, Pandora had already been kind of approved by council, but it was advancing into like a detailed design stage to then you know get into construction and be built. And so Pandora, it was, you know, one program and project, which was the Biktoria study, was very much planning related, where the other one was more engineering related, where it was technical details of you know, how wide should the bike lane be. We entered, we built floating bus stops, which was uh a new a new design detail. It was the city's very first protected bike lane. Um we piloted the the bidirectional design in front of City Hall so people could kind of see and feel it. We um, you know, looked at best case practices. I think a big part of that was really educating the people of like why there was a need for protected bike lanes. There was still a bit of a culture of, you know, why do we need this barrier? This makes no sense. And in a in a you know, almost like a cyclist culture of it's kind of a silly term, but mammal, it's like this middle-aged men in lycra, and you know, not really reflecting the demand that you know, families or younger users or older users, this whole ages and abilities audience. Um, so yeah, lots of details, even related to that project, uh, really kind of dealing with a lot of kind of concerns from the public of like, whoa, this is so over the top. What are you guys doing? But you know, it it was the the the taste of where things were going and the design guidance that was evolving. And you know, we were looking at Vancouver and other other jurisdictions that had kind of advanced these types of designs.

Peter: 11:50

Uh but once you've built a part of a bike network, you're a bit exposed, I would think, because okay, now it doesn't really go anywhere, so nobody's using it. So why did you build it? So what are we wasting our money on? Uh, how did you go from there to getting everybody in your city within 400 meters of a cycling corridor?

Tim: 12:10

Uh yeah, so once again, we're 10 years later of when this was happening, and um, we kind of strategically worked through corridor by corridor to make these investments. I think it's important to recognize in the plan that we developed, this the Bictoria study, there's a really strong emphasis of a phasing plan and recognizing, you know, where the alignments should come first through a bit of a prioritization lens that had many factors informing. But at the end of the day, like safety and demand were probably some of the higher ones. So the phasing was kind of established on three phases. So, phase one being establish a minimum grid of cycling facilities in the downtown core. Phase two was connect to municipal neighborhoods and neighboring cycling networks. So, you know, expanding out through our municipality to connect to those kind of strategic links in the surrounding municipalities. And then phase three was kind of an infill of the priority network and uh and establishing connections to the various neighborhoods that we have throughout the city and densifying the network. We've we've largely completed our network, um, which is exciting, and then in the process, added other corridors as opportunities have arose. But I'd say, you know, in the last 10 years, it's clearly developing a framework and a prioritization, lots of components, you know, resourcing and getting budget and everything else to deliver on typically about two corridors per year.

Peter: 13:38

Well, part of getting a big plan like this through involves uh getting a buy-in to the vision. And I know that you have had some European training and and you've lived in in Amsterdam, and um you brought in some outside experts. Uh, tell us about those experts and to what extent their confidence in the vision was shared and became a factor in the success of your endeavors.

Tim: 14:03

Sure. So this kind of ties back to our Bictoria study, and the the design team did reflect different kinds of perceptive perceptions, which was great. So, of that design team, we had Urban Systems, which was uh a firm that had local kind of Western Canadian experience, and they were largely uh a facilitator with lots of great planning and engineering knowledge. And then through an international perspective, we had um Jan Gell's firm and Andreas Roll, who was uh a lead in the development of the bike network in Copenhagen. Then we had Gil Penaloza, and Gil was involved in Bogota in Colombia and the development of a lot, like a completely dramatic reshaping of Bogota. He was the parks director for a number of years, and he now has a company called 8280, which is an agency in Toronto that advocates for you know high quality and accommodating these design users. And then we had Ulta Planning, so Mia Burke. And Portland was at the time seen as you know an interesting example in North America that had advanced their cycling network, but all had different perceptions. You know, Gil was build it, build it, build it, don't stop, you know, focus on the minimum grid, like be like aggressive and do the right thing. Don't get watered down by the obstacles that can happen. Um, and then the kind of perspective from the Copenhagen experience. Uh, Andreas had a really wonderful kind of communications background. And so he was really good at flagging, you know, where the risks were and you know, identifying, you know, impacts to parking could really jeopardize some of you know our future work. And so had really wonderful insights, but also, you know, a big, a big thinker guy and pushing us to be ambitious on you know strategic corridors on high streets, whereas the 20 kind of 11 to 14 all ages and ability network was largely on secondary, so kind of quieter local streets that had less cost, but also less largely impact. And so there was a big advocacy from these different professionals to put the cycling facilities where those destinations are that people need to get to. So, you know, it could be a challenging high street or a major arterial, and there's going to be impacts to parking and there's more costs, retrofitting the traffic signals and dealing with all these complexities. But at the at the end of the day, let's build the facility where people want to go. Almost taking the harder path, but ultimately the better path was it was a nice outcome.

Peter: 16:38

Now, you did mention that you do have a lot of uh still have routes in the residential streets. What have you done? I know you've done some interesting things to those streets without making separated bike lanes that enable cyclists to feel safe and in fact improve the quality of life for the people who live on those streets. Tell us about some of those things you've done.

Tim: 16:58

Yeah, for sure. So um the majority of our downtown network is largely protected facilities. And so we have a myriad of, you know, bidirectional bike lanes and uh and one-way protected bike lanes. But as we kind of got to the edge of uh phase one, there was a corridor, uh, Vancouver Street for the Vancouver Street. And this was in a window of time where we did three notable shared use projects where it wasn't taking a quiet street that was already there. It was retrofitting collector roads, which typically accommodate, you know, about 6,000 vehicles per day and have the higher speeds and they're kind of busier streets, and bringing them down to more of a local road status. So the vehicle volumes would come down to about a thousand vehicles per day, the speeds would come down to 30 kilometers an hour. And to do that, there was a series of kind of interventions uh which would essentially divert traffic and and and relocate traffic from those streets to other streets. And that's a kind of a big technical exercise all in itself, but it did create the opportunity for you know really wonderful little investments of plazas where we closed the street and we invested in street trees and benches and you know, different granite pavers, little community uh nodes where people can gather and get together. And one thing that's kind of interesting about these neighborhood bikeways, and there were three that we did kind of within the same time period, there were Vancouver, uh Richardson, and Haltane. And they were all complex and had their own kind of nuances and challenges. But chatting with residents now, they're like, oh my God, you know, I would never let my kids play in the front yard because it was this busy street. Now I live on this quiet street. And they're not cyclists. You know, these are the benefits that reached the community members in other ways that weren't even like we knew that there would be those benefits, but they were really highlighted and noted, which is great, right? It's kind of broader safety uh improvements for all.

Peter: 19:00

Well, I like to hear that you adjusted a route based on public input because so often people say uh cities say we're going to do some consultation, and the citizens go, Yeah, whatever. Um, you're never gonna listen to us. But here's a case you did listen to people, but there must have been a lot of opposition when somebody's favorite route to work is blocked off now, or they've lost some parking outside their business or home. Um, did you have a lot of that? And and were you how were you able to overcome that?

Tim: 19:28

Oh oh yeah, oh yeah, no shortage of that whatsoever. Um, every corridor was, you know, we would go and knock, and we knew every business, and it was pretty amazing, I gotta say, like through different corridors, the the perception of you know, such concerns related to the change. And I can appreciate it, you're a business owner, you know, margins might be tight, and any level of risk could be a scary thing. Um, I would almost refer to an example project, which was Fort Street, which was our second project, which was not intended to be our second project. It was another north-south corridor. We wanted to do Wharf Humboldt, which was an east-west corridor, but there was direction uh to do Fort Street. There was, you know, a section of Fort Street that had some great advocacy for, you know, bike lanes and the improvements, but they didn't speak for all business owners. And so there was uh there was impacts to parking. Uh, there were changes, obviously, with with the the new facilities. But a lot of the businesses, it was quite amazing to see them, you know, quite irate about this idea and you guys don't know what you're doing, to, you know, cycling to work and being like, oh my God, I had no idea. You were right, this is amazing, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, you got to work through these different perceptions, you got to be patient and and ultimately, you know, continue to speak to the myriad of benefits that investments like this can have for a community.

Peter: 20:53

Have you got to the point where the benefits are so big and obvious that when you propose a new bike lane now, people go, yeah, bring it on and don't complain?

Tim: 21:01

Well, you mentioned earlier, like, you know, are you seeing this change? And so earlier, like our first couple projects, it was like, here's our big ambitious idea. And they would be like, You guys are crazy. What are you doing? We don't need all this. Now we have conversations and they're like, You guys aren't doing enough. Where's the protected intersection? Where's the continuous sidewalk? Where's the, you know, where where's the aggressive interventions? And so we're we're at the end of the day, our job is to represent every mode of travel, vehicles included, and you know, so we we need to find the sweet spot, obviously. Um, but yeah, it's it's interesting how I think culturally there's a lot more support for these investments than at the beginning. And I think it's just because there's more people using it, they get it now.

Peter: 21:44

You you mentioned the car trips have gone down. Uh, have have is there any measurable decrease in congestion that you could attribute to the bike lanes?

Tim: 21:53

Uh well, car traffic going down is is one. Um, we do have corridors that have. Have uh surplus capacity in them. And so that's where we're reducing lanes to create space for uh protected bike facilities. Um I'd say too, like another notable uh kind of benefit is uh like just the related uh incidences, so safety. So we have a statistic, and it's it's you know or I'll just read it out. It's a 39% decline in cyclist-related crashes, a 53% decline in pedestrian-related crashes since 2014. Now that's I that's data from ICBC, um, and it's up to 2022, but you know, there's measurable outcomes related to safety. Another really interesting one, and I don't have the full background to kind of qualify it further, but it's a 27% decrease in transportation related emissions since 2007. You know, obviously electric vehicles and other factors are playing into that. It's not 100% recycling network, but those are those are notable outcomes, yeah. 100% that's impressive.

Peter: 23:09

Tim, I want to talk for a minute about the surrounding ecosystem of businesses and culture and changes other than the lanes. We've talked a lot about the lanes themselves, but uh, I know you have a bike valet downtown, which is a addresses theft concerns. And I know for for people to get into cycling, there's a whole lot of things have to happen other than just the lane. Um, can you tell us how other organizations at hotels, restaurants, schools, community centers are adapting or accommodating cycling?

Tim: 23:39

Yeah, so you mentioned the bike valet, which uh about two or three years now running. Um, obviously a great program. I use it every day. It's right at City Hall. So you know, I get to benefit from rolling up and saying hi to the nice people that work there, and they take the bike for free. And for anyone listening, come experience it and try it out when you're in Victoria next. Um, other factors relate to um a new bike share system that we're gonna be getting into uh later this year. So right now we're reviewing different proposals for what that service might look like. That's something we don't have currently, but is another another opportunity to kind of give people a chance to, you know, maybe get around by bike that they haven't done before. I'd say we've been really head down and focused on infrastructure improvements and and you know, establishing a really solid network. And so that of itself has done a fantastic job to attract new ridership. And just anecdotally, you can see it. So, you know, when I first moved back from the Netherlands and was back in Victoria, and I was really passionate about this idea of establishing a cycling network. And uh, you know, I was working for a developer at the time and I couldn't stop talking about it. And then I worked for a consultancy firm and tapping into different, you know, active transportation plans or master transportation plans. The cycling community 10, 15 years ago, it wasn't all ages and abilities. Now it's like every second bike looks like a cargo bike, and there's you know, families and mothers taking their kids to school. And and so, you know, you can just see it, which is you know, something that has just filled in that gap, which we were trying to establish. So that's a pretty amazing thing. I'm gonna speak to another component that um is another kind of way that we look to encourage so through development, there are uh transportation demand management um procedures and and practices that look to have you know quite high quality bike parking on site. Um, you know, how how can the development sector have a variance on parking, but then you know, how can it contribute to encouraging their residents to take alternate modes of transportation, which is also beyond cycling? It could be a transit pass, it could be um you know having a car share system, but on-site bike parking is another one that um is is continuing to get built out.

Peter: 25:57

In one of the videos that we will connect in the show notes, there's an interview with a developer who built a I think a car-free development where there's no parking in the development, but there's bike parking, there's charging, there's a play a repair station. And he makes the point that what would otherwise be parking in a conventional development is now community space and playgrounds. It's all it's amazing. And he and he was very specific. He said, I would not, could not have done this if it hadn't been for all the biking infrastructure. Are you seeing more of that?

Tim: 26:29

Yeah, for sure. Um, that's Julian you spoke to with the Zurban Thrive Company, and you know, that's a wonderful model. And uh some of you know his projects that he's recently got occupancy for are amazing examples to point to. I would say at the end of the day, development is market-driven. And so developers are A, looking to save a buck. Parking is insanely expensive to build underground parking. So, you know, reducing what those on-site requirements are is arguably a cost savings for developers. But the other one is they're they're wanting to provide a product that the market responds to. And so, Victoria, I would say there are families that are car free. There are families that um, you know, can get around without a car, and arguably it they're saving a notable amount of money. Transportation is the second highest cost for families in Canada.

Peter: 27:19

An estimated $12,000 a year if you can uh free yourself from a car.

Tim: 27:23

Right. And so removing that is uh, you know, a benefit.

Peter: 27:34

I lived in Victoria one time and I was editor of Monday magazine, and I once went to an event on my bike to the Empress Hotel, and I said, Where do I park this thing? So go around the back. And we were I was told to shackle it to some chain link fence beside the garbage. I was so angry, I spouted off in the paper, and I got an angry call from the manager saying, Why don't you just call me? We could have worked it out. Do venues like the Empress Hotel and other and restaurants, for example, do they have now covered parking that's readily available for cyclists and they welcome and expect and expect cyclists to come?

Tim: 28:08

Yeah, I don't know about the Empress. It's kind of a bit of a unique audience that they have. Um, whenever I've last gone there, I think I locked my bike to some signpost or something, right? They're still using that chain like this. But I was gonna say that, you know, some of the businesses have gone so far as having their own bike share system that's exclusive to the use of that hotel. So, you know, Robin Hood Hotel as an example on Gorge Road. They have e-bikes that if you're staying there at the hotel, you can use for free to explore the city, which is fantastic. And so, you know, I think I don't think they're alone in offering this as a service and recognizing the benefits of the network.

Peter: 28:44

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about some of the things that have happened as a result of that network in in that area and particularly around tourism, because uh Victoria is very much a tourist town. And do you find or do you have any data on people coming to Victoria just because or mostly because they want to ride around? Are there like rental companies or guide tour guides, um, guided tours in from the ferries or any of that sort of thing?

Tim: 29:10

Yeah, like I can't speak to it like accurately statistically. The I'm sure you know there's there's figures out there, but anecdotally, you know, at the bike ballet, it's it's hilarious. You see people geared up, and there's lots of different cycling tourists, I'd say, as well. So there's different operators that you know will do the classic kind of run around town and some of the different highlights. There's the cruise ship industry, which is very notable, and a wonderful, wonderful cycling facility that is right at the cruise ship terminal. So there's, you know, you can rent a bike and bike along the ocean front, and what a wonderful way to see Victoria.

Peter: 29:44

Is that a privately operated uh service from the cruise ships?

Tim: 29:47

Yeah, yeah. I think it's different, different, you know, bike tour operators that are providing their service where the demand is, right? So that's that's a notable one. I would also say, too, like there's a lot of kind of just cycling tourist people that I've chatted with that have come from Saskatchewan, say, and they've said, Oh, I've heard Victoria has this great bike network and we've rented bikes and we're exploring and we don't really know where we're going, but we're having a great time. Uh, another interesting one is kind of like the bike packing kind of tourism. So people coming from afar, I've chatted with people from the UK and America and all different destinations that have come here, and they're doing kind of almost more like gravel road type riding, which is capitalizing on some of these regional trails that connect up into the Cowichan Valley Regional Trail. So the Great Trail, which is a federal um initiative. We live in a beautiful, beautiful space, and so biking around with your camping gear and people exploring that way, which is really cool.

Peter: 30:43

And you did cover the uh inherent advantages of Victoria and the Victoria region for cycling. You've got a relatively flat topography, you've got mild climate, um, and you're fairly densely populated. Um, talk about e-cargo bikes because uh one of the videos that we'll reference in the show notes, the videographer was somewhat fixated with cargo bikes. Are there businesses that now bring move stuff around on the bike lanes as a as a sort of a cargo delivery?

Tim: 31:11

Yeah, I I I would say it hasn't exploded like it could. Um, but there's definitely delivery companies that are utilizing bikes. Lots of food delivery um organizations are, you know, you see their drivers cruising around on electric bikes. Uh, I hate to say it, but they they're usually the ones that are kind of the sketchier ones on the bike path. They're they're rushing around trying to make it dime. Um, the other kind of component is uh is in addition to you know these different kind of services, the the BC Ambulance Association, they have you know, people that are kind of cruising around on bikes with all their medical kit. The police have a you know a bike fleet and they tour around by bike. So, you know, as much as it's the delivery services and industry, it's also some of these emergency providers that are finding the efficiencies of getting around by a bike versus you know a car or a van or whatever it might be.

Peter: 32:06

Uh, whenever we talk about bike lanes, the word partnership and collaboration always comes up. And uh I wonder if you could just tell me a little bit about who else is involved other than the city and how important the advocates are, like people like organizations like Capital Bikes. And I know there were lots of people and organizations getting the lockside and the Galloping Goose Trail going.

Tim: 32:29

Yeah, so um, so the Capital Regional District has a new kind of transportation commission. So they're gonna continue to advocate for the core area. Um, funding is a is a big big gap, right? So funding is is is the kind of magic maker to see these investments come to fruition. And so the benefit of the CRD being representational of a larger population has its advantages of attracting funding from senior governments, whether it's provincial or federal. Um, obviously, the grassroots organizations continue to advocate for what they see as kind of high priority corridors, which is wonderful. Another one that I'd like to highlight that doesn't get spoken to or given credit enough is the development sector. So I mean we're seeing lots of big, big development projects. And so, as much as we're doing our capital uh projects and plans to invest in these corridors, a lot of the investments and some of the higher quality stuff is through these development frontages. And so there might be a full block that's being redeveloped, and that's the opportunity to kind of establish some notable uh cycling facilities and you know, also pedestrian improvements and new street trees. And so we're kind of stitching together, and it's a bit of a bit of a game of Sim City where there's lots of different parcels that are gonna have these frontage improvements, which will be contributing to the cycling network. And our corridor plans are acknowledging that, and they might have kind of an interim or a cheaper approach, uh, recognizing that those kind of higher quality investments in infrastructure are gonna be coming when that development comes online. And so at the end of the day, we're really trying to be thoughtful of how we best utilize you know public dollars in these investments. And so um, a lot of our projects are coordinated with you know big paving projects. So if we need to pave a road, why would we go back to the existing lane lining if we know it can be safer and improved? The biggest expense is actually the paving of the road. The bike lane is it's just the icing on the cake. A lot of underground investments that happen and traffic signal investments. So I think some people think, you know, we're making these investments in cycling infrastructure, but it really is more of a kind of a complete streets investment with cycling. It's probably like 15% of the budget of these projects, but it is the thing that stands out because it is kind of new and novel and probably gets a bit more attention, right?

Peter: 34:46

Well, you did mention that money is the secret sauce here and there needs to be money for these things to happen. And I noted that the the CRD is dedicating$50 million to cycling improvements. Bravo to that. Um, but if if another municipality were looking at the city of Victoria's budget, would they look at the percentage of money that's being spent on cycle lanes and gasp, or would that be just not that big a number? Is it it wouldn't it wouldn't it wouldn't read overly well?

Tim: 35:14

It's kind of a bit of a tricky one to interpret. So we have like a line item for cycling network improvements, but it's quite a modest budget and it's more like retrofits and little you know cleanup opportunities and smaller projects, and then our budget for our multimodal corridors is typically what we've been delivering. There's also um, you know, some of the budgets were largely supplemented in the past by the gas tax. And so the gas tax was a major contributor to how the city could invest in these corridors, and obviously, you know, that that's a a waning kind of asset, right? Um, also, too, even you know, monies from the province. They have a a program that we've used for every corridor, and that program is kind of on pause right now. So these senior levels of investment are really important, but right now it's kind of an interesting time of austerity. So we have to be creative and and and mindful.

Peter: 36:10

Well, I take your point that a lot of this wouldn't have happened without the provincial government contributions, and it's very sad to see that you can say paused. I know they say paused, but you could also say canceled. And uh it's leaving a lot of these opportunities untapped, not just in Victoria, but throughout other municipalities. So before we wrap up, I just want to ask you are there lessons that you would want to highlight from your experience that would be pertinent in other places that are maybe still in the no bikes downtown mentality.

Tim: 36:44

I would say strive for getting something built and avoiding getting hung up on perfection. So, you know, even in these times of austerity, it's it's very easy to, oh, if we do this, then we need to do that. And you know, it becomes a bit of an issue where by trying to get the perfect thing, nothing actually happens, which is not a benefit to the community. So, as much as you know, we would love to have the highest quality intersection design, and we do have really good intersection design, and we do take that very seriously, I would say that's a a little spot where the budget can bleed out. Um or you know, do you do you pave the road? There's there's kind of easier and cheaper and quicker ways to build these network components. I would also say, too, is you you want to be able to leave a project in a good standing so it doesn't get boohooed, torn out, or you know, ostracized politically so another project doesn't kind of follow.

Peter: 37:46

What do you mean, leave it in good standing?

Tim: 37:48

Well, that you don't have a project that's so aggressive. It uh irates the community enough to create a political change to have things ripped out or programs canceled.

Peter: 37:58

Well, I I noticed in the video that you did with Roy Simons from ICL Consulting, who I know have been involved as well with this, that he was quite proud of the rubber pylons that were all that was needed to scare away cars from the bike lane. But he said they look like metal, so the cars keep away. But doesn't sound very expensive to me. And uh I like that as an austerity approach.

Tim: 38:19

And and on the flip side, too, we've been very intentional to build infrastructure that is gonna stand the test of time, that does have a high cost for removal in case there is a political change. It's kind of what Toronto's going through right now, right? So, you know, rip these things out. Oh, well, did you know it's gonna cost X million to rip you know all of this infrastructure out? So, you know, building something that is permanent has its advantages as well. If you go too temporary, it's quite easy to remove that.

Peter: 38:46

I could reference the bike lane in Stanley Park, but I won't.

Tim: 38:50

Yeah, there you go.

Peter: 38:51

Just to finish off, where are you going from here? You've got everybody within 400 meters of a protected um you call them cycling corridors because they're not always bike lanes. You're going for 200 meters now, and when will that happen?

Tim: 39:04

Yeah, that's correct. It'll evolve over time. So we just recently updated our official community plan, a complete overhaul of the plan. Uh, in that we have new mobility network maps. And so our cycling network is you know envisioned to expand and continue to be equitable and distributed throughout the city. And so mapping out the idea that our municipality, which once again, as I as I referenced earlier, is quite compact and small compared to others. But yeah, having an adjacency of 200 meters within the city right now, uh it's kind of within 400 meters of everywhere. And our coverage is like if you were to put a buffer on our cycling network, I think it's about 95%. Um, but the idea is if you put a 200 meter buffer on all of our corridors, you're you're kind of covering the community. So really, really advancing kind of you know that opportunity for people to connect and and have those mobility options.

Peter: 40:03

Well, let's go back to where we started. The cycling capital of Canada. The cycling capital of North America, I gather, is Davis, California, with a 17% um bike share, uh mode share of trips. If you get this 200-meter thing in, you might be a solid winner over Montreal and maybe Davis. And you really could say that Victoria is the cycling capital of North America. So good. Go for it.

Tim: 40:29

Yeah. And and honestly, like, I don't think the city's done enough job to kind of communicate where we're at and what we are. I think we've been kind of humble in that regard. And so people come here and they're shocked. They're like, we had no idea there was such a strong cycling culture, and even, you know, different um uh different events that we go to and conferences, you know, there's other professionals coming from elsewhere that are just shocked at what they're seeing because it hasn't, you know, that that story hasn't been told enough. And so I appreciate you know, those YouTubers that are helping tell the story, and and I appreciate you, Peter, kind of helping tell the story as well.

Peter: 41:08

Well, they all start out by, who knew? What's going on here? It happened so suddenly. What's tell me about, you know, let's find out more about it. You did, by the way, of course, the city declared itself the cycling capital of Canada, so it's not totally unafraid to blow its horn. And you did win the 2024 Transportation Association of Canada Active Transportation Achievement Award, but that's a little bit inside baseball. Um, so anyway, we've discovered it. Uh the podcasters have discovered. I really I lived in Victoria for about 10 years. I'd I'm busting to go back there with my bike and explore all these places and enjoy these amenities. And I would suspect there are a lot of tourists and maybe people you always people say, well, if you have these facilities, you'll attract uh uh professionals and people who want to come to work there. And it as you mentioned earlier, so many benefits, and it's so wonderful that you're doing it. And congratulations to you on your personal investment in it and passion for making it all happen.

Tim: 42:07

Come over, visit. You'll get the personal tour.

Peter: 42:10

I will actually be visiting Victoria on October 28th to the 30th when the BC Cycling Coalition hosts the annual Active Transportation Summit. And so that will be a chance for people to come and not just enjoy the trails and the roads and the bike, biking infrastructure, but also learn from people who did it and get some tours and uh have a wonderful time upgrading their knowledge.

Tim: 42:35

Well, let's organize a tour.

Peter: 42:37

Absolutely.

Tim: 42:38

Cheers, Peter.

Peter: 42:47

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca.

A bicycle-towed, electric lane sweeper is quietly changing how cities and communities keep bike lanes safe. Peter sits down with Sunshine Coast engineer and former bike mechanic Cedric Eveleigh to unpack the origin story, the design choices behind his hybrid sweeper, and the grassroots momentum that turned broom-wielding volunteers into a movement with real tools and measurable impact. 

• Watch the video that got 5 million views on Instagram HERE

• See Cedric in action on the Sunshine Coast HERE

• Watch the Sweeper do its thing HERE

Get in touch at cedric@bikelanesweeper.com

Share this episode with your city staff or local advocates to help more people discover solutions that make everyday riding safer.

Peter: 0:06

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Cedric Ebbelay, who is a former bike mechanic who has evolved into a manufacturer of bike lane sweepers. Based on the Sunshine Coast, he's selling these sweepers all over North America, enabling people to clean bike lanes of debris. We're going to find out why we need these bike lane sweepers, what his particular sweeper can do, how he became a manufacturer of these products, and what the future looks like for his business. Welcome, Cedric.

Cedric: 1:02

Thanks for having me, Peter.

Peter: 1:04

Tell us about your latest bike ride.

Cedric: 1:06

My most recent bike ride was actually pulling a bike lane sweeper. I recently did a little bit of sweeping as part of a recent initiative that we started called Safe Cycling Sunshine Coast, where the community is actually funding us to do some sweeping. So it's something that we're now doing in parallel with manufacturing the bike lane sweepers, is that we're sweeping as a service for the community. So yeah, I was out uh a couple days ago doing a little run to Roberts Creek and back and uh just removing debris from the bike lanes.

Peter: 1:36

How far did you ride?

Cedric: 1:37

Oh, to Roberts Creek. I uh I think it's like seven kilometers each way, something like that. Uh it wasn't it wasn't a huge distance. Uh you can go way longer with the bike lane sweeper. It was definitely me the limiting factor and not the sweeper.

Peter: 1:50

So you're you're working, I'm looking at you now. You're in a uh manufacturing plant in Wilson Creek, which is between Roberts Creek and Seasheld. And you're in a room, this is your 3D printer room. What are those 3D printer things I see in the background?

Cedric: 2:04

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's a couple of 3D printers behind me. And uh we have a whole variety of fun tools here in this shop. And there's some bigger CNC machines and welders and CNC router and all kinds of uh bigger machinery in the bigger room um behind me. But uh yeah, this little room here has 3D printers, and I'm here because it's a bit more quiet than the rest of the shop.

Peter: 2:26

You have employees working there now?

Cedric: 2:28

I currently have two employees or a team of three, and we're we're doing the bike lane sweepers plus a couple other projects. But uh yeah, it's it's really awesome having having the help. I really enjoy working with the guys and with uh building the sweepers.

Peter: 2:42

So you have been enthralled with bicycles since you were a young person. Tell us about your trajectory and how you ended up becoming educated about bikes and becoming an engineer.

Cedric: 2:56

Yeah, well, I it all started when I was a youngster um uh when I was getting quite into mountain biking. And I was a I was a little kid starting to build these tiny jumps in my backyard, and then that evolved into mountain biking being my my passion in my high school years, and which led to me joining a bike shop. And I worked in a bike shop as a bike mechanic for a few years. Uh, did that into my into right into university when I was studying mechanical engineering, and I I went into the studies of mechanical engineering specifically because of my passion for mountain bikes, and um, and then I would often commute to the bike shop with a road bike, and I was just yeah, getting more and more into bikes. And um I deviated a little bit from the bicycle world in my master's. So after my mechanical engineering undergrad, I did a master's in engineering physics, and that was actually in uh research for develop developing a type of next generation nuclear power, which is just like that was a whole other topic. But uh yeah, it's just a type of nuclear power for for reducing waste and and the and the reducing the um the risk of accidents with nuclear reactors, and that was that was lots of fun. But um, and then after that, I went back into the the bicycle world with a focus on mountain bikes.

Peter: 4:09

You developed some kind of new technology for mountain bikes, I understand.

Cedric: 4:13

Yeah. So after my master's, I had a bit of an existential crisis and did some some soul searching, and I realized, you know what, it's really bicycles that make me happy. So I I I decided I wanted to go back into the world of bicycles and and try to engineer some improvements to bikes. And uh I thought long and hard about the problem of derailers and mountain bikes, because it's a common problem that on mountain bikes the rear derailer gets smashed because it dangles down and is vulnerable. And I came up with an idea that that does actually solve that problem, but while still keeping the efficiency of derailers. And so I developed that invention in my parents' basement for a total of three years, building all kinds of prototypes, and uh got a patent for that. And then I I started this business. Um, and I was I I did the prototype, like my parents' place is in Chelsea, Quebec, just north of Ottawa. And so I did the prototyping there. But after I got the patent and announced the invention publicly, I was able to raise some funds from some investors, which enabled me to move to here to the Sunshine Coasts to set up shop. Um, you know, rather than working out of a basement to actually have a proper industrial shop, is really nice. And um and to start building a team to help me with the the the the adventure of developing the mountain bike drivetrain. And um, let's see here, it was a couple years into being here on the Sunshine Coast that um that I started working on the bike lane sweepers. But um, but before I even started building prototype sweepers, I was volunteering with a local group called Transportation Choices Sunshine Coasts. It's an awesome group of people. I love them all. And they organized some events where volunteers would sweep sections of bike lanes with brooms by hand to advocate for there to be more sweeping of the bike lanes. And I I went to these events um when I first moved to the coast, and uh and that got me thinking about whether there's a better way to do that.

Peter: 5:59

Can you just describe uh what's the problem with the bike lanes? Why are you sweeping?

Cedric: 6:06

So yeah, be it be it leaves or rocks or glass or nails, it's all of this kinds of debris can cause flat tires, which is not pleasant and can be dangerous. And also often cyclists just want to avoid debris. So when there is a lot of debris in the in a bike lane or in a shoulder, it might force the cyclist to take the car lane. It's it's a bit dangerous and unpleasant. And um, so yeah, the idea is really just to remove debris from bike lanes to make them safer and uh more pleasant to ride on.

Peter: 6:35

Now I understand that track, we're gonna we're gonna get to the bike lane sweeper in a second, but I understand that volunteers from track are still doing this manual sweeping. And uh, when I was up there visiting, I I I've I began to look at it as almost a form of performance art where you're just uh making sort of mocking the lack of maintenance on the shoulders of the highway. These aren't technically bike lanes, by the way. These are we're talking about highway shoulders, right?

Cedric: 7:02

Yeah, that's right.

Peter: 7:03

So the cars are spitting this stuff out and the snow plows occasionally will push debris to the side. So they're still doing that, but meanwhile, you've developed this bike lane sweeper, and uh presumably now it's a team effort, and I would imagine most of the work is being done by the sweepers. Could you describe what the sweeper is?

Cedric: 7:22

It's a trailer that you pull by bike. So if people have seen, you know, like kids' trailers or whatever trailers they pull by bike, it's the same kind of idea. The connection to the bike is actually a little burly hitch, which is from the company Burley that makes bike trailers. And um, but the the trailer is a custom thing that we've designed and we build, and the it has a couple of wheels and a brush, and the brush is powered by an electric motor, and there's also a battery on the sweeper. So the so it's electrically powered sweeping and it's all kind of self-contained, powers itself. It's just that this the sweeper needs to be pulled by the cyclist. So that's why, especially when dealing with hills, we recommend that the cyclists have an e-bike, um, just because of the weight of the sweeper, even though the brush is powered by the motor and battery on the sweeper. And it just does a really good job at removing all kinds of debris. And um, our our latest and greatest type of sweeper, we call it the hybrid sweeper, because it combines the functions of both push-aside sweeping and pickup sweeping. Earlier prototypes of sweepers that we built, we were building sweepers that could either push debris to the side or it could pick up debris. Like we were we were building different prototypes for those different functions. And then with some um with some leaps of thinking, I came up with a way to combine both. So we have we have one sweeper now that you pull along and you can very quickly uh switch it between the modes of picking up debris versus pushing debris to the side. And that's the main type of sweeper that we've been selling now for the past year and a half.

Peter: 8:47

There is a video, uh I mean there are a number of videos that have been done about this sweeper, but uh tell us about one that got was it five million viral relays or whatever they're calling it?

Cedric: 8:59

Views. Views, thank you. That that's right. Yeah, it was an Instagram post recently, and uh and it it's uh it's a video of a sweeper, one of our sweepers that we built in in Portland, Oregon, being pulled along by uh by a volunteer there. It's it's a group called BikeLoud PDX, and they yeah, they they purchased a sweeper from us and and they've been running it. And yeah, so a lady was just pulling the sweeper along and she was sweeping some leaves off a bike lane. And it's just very satisfying, and uh it's especially very visible when sweeping leaves because you know it's it's like visually is very clear when there isn't or is leaves, and so it's just a fun video to see to see the bike lane get cleared. It's very satisfying. And yeah, that video just the the the algorithm liked it, and a lot of people were stoked about it and commenting uh uh with support. So yeah, it uh ended up getting five million views, which is a pretty crazy amount of eyeballs. But um, that that was really fun to see. And it actually resulted in a few sweeper sales.

Peter: 9:59

Yeah, we're gonna have a link to that video and a couple of other videos in the show notes so people can see because it's very uh impressive when you see these these sweepers in action. I might also add that uh as I understand it, a lot of these sweepers are operated by volunteers from bike advocates. And Cedric, tell us, is it actually satisfying? If sweeping is a satisfying thing to do. Uh, do people find it fun to ride these sweepers and have the satisfaction of seeing those leaves one one one minute they're here and then the next minute they're gone?

Cedric: 10:31

Yeah, people do enjoy it. It is satisfying, like you said. And it's just like it's not only just satisfying uh in itself, but it's also rewarding in that there's tends to be a lot of support from the community. So often when you're out sweeping, you'll have a lot of people just passing by saying thank you, or you know, expressing support in various ways. And that is really encouraging as well. Although I must say though, about the topic of volunteering, ideally bike lanes and shoulders would be maintained by by staff of municipalities and uh or you know, staff from contractors paid by the province. Like these ideally, it just would be paid staff who are operating the sweepers and doing the maintenance of the infrastructure because that's how it should be, right? Like it should be publicly funded. So when we have volunteers, I think it's awesome. But like the long-term goal is definitely to have paid staff doing this. And fortunately, we have sold sweepers so far to three municipalities who um who, of course, pay their staff to operate the sweepers. So that has been that has been awesome to have that happen. And I'm really keen to sell more to municipalities. We've also had uh one of them, I think it's a business in in Oregon where they they rent out e-bikes as their business, but uh, of course, it's beneficial if their customers are riding on safe bike lanes. They actually got a grant uh for buying a sweeper and operating the sweeper. So they pay their staff to operate the sweeper. And man, do they ever sweep a lot? It's quite impressive. Yeah, so that's a little note on the topic of volunteers. And and also on the Sunshine Coast, so it depends. Like some places there's a lot of enthusiasm for people. A lot of people want to volunteer and pull the sweepers, like in Portland, for example. But on the Sunshine Coast, it's surprising, there hasn't been too many volunteers who've wanted to sweep. I mean, there's a couple of people, uh, I'll give a shout out to Rob uh in particular who who sweeps a lot as a volunteer on the Sunshine Coast, but most people are actually not that keen about it.

Peter: 12:20

But let me just go back to your point, completely well taken, that why are volunteers required to make streets safe for cyclists? But when it comes to the roads, there's a lot of public money available to clean those roads for cars and trucks and buses. So uh absolutely I would agree with you that this is not a job for volunteers, however much they might like doing it and however useful they might be in getting it started. So just backing up to your municipalities, who were the municipalities who bought them?

Cedric: 12:55

So far, we've sold one to the city of Pentington. They bought one, and we sold one to the city of Davis in California, and also one to the town of Carborough, uh, which is another, it's a smaller town in the U.S.

Peter: 13:09

I'm I'm intrigued as a former business journalist. Tell what's your sales process? How do you reach these people? How do they come to you when they see these videos? Or how does that work?

Cedric: 13:18

Yeah, mostly it's been people coming to us. We yeah, we we have like you uh you mentioned that that video on Instagram, like that's been quite helpful for kind of spreading the word about the sweepers. We have also tried to do tried to attend some events and certain conferences. Like the first time I met you, actually, I remember was a couple years ago at the Active Transportation Summit in in New Westminster. Um so I was there with my collaborator Pierre with uh with a couple of sweepers. Um, and I also recently attended the UBCM conference with the sweeper to try to spread the word with counselors and mayors and all that about this this new sweeping technology that we're introducing that's way lower cost than pre-existing uh solutions. So um, yes, but it's been uh definitely generally people have been coming to us, um, and that has been great.

Peter: 14:06

We're gonna get back to the UBCM in a minute, but it back to the Sunshine Coast. So first the people are out there with the brooms, and then you think there's got to be a better idea, and you figure out this you and Pierre, I should add, your collaborator, came up with the design and so on. And then you've sort of, I and in my view, you're sort of shaming the ministries, contractors, into doing a better job by having voluntary like crowd fundraising. And now you've got a side business actually going out and doing the work with the money that was crowdfunded. How much did you raise crowdfunding?

Cedric: 14:39

The crowdfunding, so we're doing this initiative just on the Sunshine Coast so far, uh, which you know it's a small, like the whole area is like 30,000 people in the lower Sunshine Coast. But we um but there's a pretty solid bunch of cycling keeners here. And so far, we have 30 people who have signed up as members of the the Patreon crowdfunding for donating a small amount on a monthly basis to fund the the sweeping of the bike lanes and shoulders. And it's um so that totals the total is about a couple hundred bucks a month that we're getting. Like we're doing this as a nonprofit operation, and um, we're with how much we're we're paying the the operators of the sweeper plus a little bit of overhead. Um the it turns out that we can do about five hours of sweeping a month with those funds, about 10 kilometers an hour average speed. That's about 50 kilometers of shoulders and bike lanes that we can sweep per month with this funding from this uh the community here on the Sunshine Coast. So uh at first it was just an experiment. I had no idea if it would work, but it turns out that it does work and it's really awesome. And I really appreciate the support on the community. And on the topic though, of shaming the local contractors, I wouldn't say we're sh I don't want to say that we're shaming the local contractors because the local contractors they get a contract from the province, and the province sets the expectations for how frequently they have to sweep and maintain the bike lanes, and that's actually the core problem.

Peter: 16:01

I agree it's not the contractor's fault, but tell us what is the province's criteria? Is it one time a year, is what I heard.

Cedric: 16:10

Yeah, it's once a year that the contractor is supposed to sweep the shoulders along the highway on the Sunshine Coast, and the highway is like the artery road, it's like the way to that can to get around to between the different communities like Roberts Creek and Seashelton Gibson's. Um the contract tech technically calls for sweeping three times a year along what they call urban highway. So when the density gets higher, when there's a lot of uh intersections and things like that, the they're supposed to sweep three times a year. But even that's really insufficient. Like you could, with the amount of debris that goes on the shoulders, you could easily sweep once a month uh along the entire highway. The interesting thing is that they're like they currently use big sweeper trucks to sweep the shoulder. So like they have to block off the car lane and it's quite disruptive. And what we introduce is something that doesn't disrupt the car traffic at all. We don't block the car car lane at all. And it's way lower cost. It's a simple electric machine and like no fancy hydraulics. These big sweeper trucks are like half a million dollars, and our our bike lane sweepers, a couple orders of magnitude lessen cost to not only to buy, but to operate. So we we introduced this really low-cost option. And it's interesting that for the same price that taxpayers are paying now to have these big heavy equipment do this the maintenance of the bike lanes, we could do way more maintenance, like once a month, for example, uh for this, probably about the same price. And uh so ideally, the contracts that the province gives would can would take that into consideration. Like ideally, they it would take into consideration the fact that there are now lower cost options. And uh that's what I've been in contact with some people from the Ministry of Transportation about, is about in the future as these contracts get revised to consider this new lower cost option.

Peter: 17:50

I want to see these sweepers. I know the city of Vancouver where I live has some little machine that goes down the bike lanes, and I think does this work? Is that right? Is that one of these half million dollar or two hundred thousand dollar machines?

Cedric: 18:02

Yeah, the ones that are really compact, those bike lanes, those those kind of sweeper, compact super trucks, they tend to be more like 300,000 Canadian. But yeah, still a couple orders of magnitude more than our sweepers.

Peter: 18:13

Even so, and they are dedicated for separated bike lanes that that are not part of just shoulders of highways.

Cedric: 18:19

That's right. Although, even then, sometimes the infrastructure can have like tight um entrances to the bike lanes or or areas where even those compact trucks can't get in, where our bike lane sweepers can access. Like I have yet to encounter cycling infrastructure where we can't get into it with one of our sweepers.

Peter: 18:35

And yeah, I understand some of even some of those big specialized sweepers, if they hit some pylons or separated concrete barriers or anything, they can't go in there. But yours will anywhere a bike can go, yours can go.

Cedric: 18:46

Exactly.

Peter: 18:59

Tell us about if there's any cultural pushback from if you have a culture of people who are used to driving big half million dollar trucks and and they're sitting up in the cab and they're they're taking control of the lanes and everything. And then your option is they get down on a bike and they're off on the side of the bike lane and they're pedaling. Is that an issue for for just the culture of the street maintenance industry?

Cedric: 19:24

Absolutely, absolutely that's an issue. That's a very good point. Yeah. Uh so the yeah, the type of person, you know, who who operates the big, the big heavy equipment, you know, they tend to like their their pickup trucks and and big, heavy, you know, powerful engines and things like that. There are like you do get some some uh machine operator kind of uh public works staff who are keen about bikes. Um so recently, actually, I did a demo for the district of Saanich uh after the UBCM conference. And the a bunch of public works guys there, um, you know, like big burly dudes were riding around on an e bike pulling one of our sweepers to test it out, and they absolutely loved it. So that's Is really fun to see. Um, but in general, yeah, the culture definitely isn't super favorable to riding a bike on the job. But fortunately, we're seeing that uh we're increasingly seeing public works people and uh municipal staff are riding bikes. Like, for example, you have police officers nowadays, it's quite a common thing for them to ride bikes. Um but the on the the topic though of yeah, the the kind of culture clash, well, one solution to that though is that if the if those um those local municipalities or you know the contractors like uh Capitolina Highways on the Sunshine Coast here who get the contract from the province for the maintenance, if they don't want to hire staff or don't have the staff who are interested in riding bikes on the uh e-bikes on the job, uh what I what I would like to offer is sweeping as a service so that we could we you know we could get be subcontracted for sweeping or uh from the the local contractor here or or a cont or contracted from you know any municipality for sweeping as a service. And I'd imagine that also helps by reducing, you know, like making it less of a commitment commitment or like where municipalities can test it out. So um I haven't actually swept as a service for uh a contracted company or for a municipality yet, but uh we're technically sweeping as a service for like the local community through the crowd crowdfunding. But um, but for sweeping as a service for for municipalities and the like, um I would really like to explore that in the future, although we haven't done it yet.

Peter: 21:28

What is your sweeper cost?

Cedric: 21:30

The sweeper, the the pricing depends if uh if it's a municipality or if it's a nonprofit group. So with the nonprofit kind of cycling advocacy groups, we don't make money off them. Uh like we basically sell the sweepers for what it costs us to make the sweepers. And the pricing, it depends if you're in Canada versus the US. So to give a sense of the pricing, though, at least for Canada, our hybrid sweeper. So our latest and greatest sweeper for nonprofit groups, it's 4,400 uh Canadian dollars. And then for municipalities, it's 6,800 uh Canadian dollars for the hybrid sweeper. And and that's the sweeper with everything you need to operate it, and it has GPS tracking, so you can know where you've swept, and it's just a uh well-refined machine at this point, and almost only selling the hybrid sweeper this past year and a half.

Peter: 22:16

And then somebody has to have their own e-bike to pull it.

Cedric: 22:20

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. The an e-bike is recommended. It's technically possible to pull it with a regular bike, but if you've got hills, an e-bike is nice.

Peter: 22:26

Cedric, you should be making money out of this. Is your business self-supporting? Are you profitable?

Cedric: 22:31

No, we're not we're not profitable with the sweepers. Like it's definitely it's definitely a functioning business that can pay for itself uh eventually, especially as the the I guess the amount that we produce increases. But no, it's we so far we've sold, let's see, in the past year and a half we've sold 18 sweepers and then we have five on order. Um, but the sweepers are are not the only thing that we're doing. So we have a couple of other exciting sort of technology development projects that we're working on. Um, like for example, I mentioned the mountain bike drivetrain earlier, things like that. Um so uh but but still I'm I I'm really excited for the sweeper business. I think it has a lot of a lot of potential and it's impactful, so I'm keen about it.

Peter: 23:12

So you have a product that's about one hundredth the cost of the capital cost of an of its uh competing alternative, which is the big truck. Every government that I've ever heard of these days is desperate to save money. Um you went to the UBC at the Union of BC municipalities to to sell this thing, you would have a very compelling economic case to make. What was the response?

Cedric: 23:39

Well, there was a lot of interest at the conference. It was really, it was really great to see. I spoke to a lot of like counselors and mayors and and and staffers from various municipalities from throughout BC. And yeah, ton of interest. It's really nice to see. But then there's a question of, you know, how many sweepers did we sell as a result of that? Well, so far we haven't sold a single sweeper as a result of me attending that conference. Now, I think part of that is that uh I'm not probably not the best salesperson on the planet. Perhaps I could hire a salesperson, that might help. But uh another part of it, I think, is that the the purchasing process is quite slow.

Peter: 24:14

Could you just explain that when you say the purchasing process is slow, it means at a municipality in order to get the purchase onto the capital plan and so on, it takes a budget cycle or something like that.

Cedric: 24:25

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what I'm that's what I'm referring to. But still, it has been, I I must say it's still kind of disappointing that there hasn't been a sale as a result of that effort of me spending a week down there in Victoria. But it was still a really fun adventure. Um and I I didn't have to, fortunately, I didn't have to pay for a booth or anything like that because the booths are like$10,000 or something like that for the UBCM conference. Totally don't have that money. Um, and anyways, all the booths were booked up. There's a very limited amount of them for the Victoria uh instance of that conference. Uh, but I I called up the conference organizers before the conference happened. And I I won't name names, but the lady was really nice and supportive, and she's like, Oh, I heard of the biking sweepers, that's awesome. And then we were chatting and she started basically giving me guidance for how to do guerrilla marketing. And she was like, you know, well, if you if you stand outside this door at the conference center, there's gonna be a stream of you know, mayors and and attendees going through there, and uh nobody's gonna tell you to leave. So so I took her advice and I showed up with a sweeper and just stood outside that door and it worked out just fine. So that was pretty funny.

Peter: 25:26

You have some testimonials online from people who have bought your sweepers and really like them. Somebody in the Napa Valley, a bike advocate group there. Um what are what are some of the cities in BC that have bought your? You mentioned Penticton.

unknown: 25:38

Yeah.

Peter: 25:39

Do you remember other ones who who who have them?

Cedric: 25:42

Uh well, there's no other municipalities who've bought uh sweepers in BC, but um Salt Spring Island, there is a group, um uh Island Pathways, a great group of people, uh cycling advocates uh on Salt Spring Island who purchased, actually, they purchased they were one of the very first to purchase uh a sweeper from us. And yeah, they've been using it a bunch, and it's been awesome to see what they're doing.

Peter: 26:03

So your market is really bike advocates at this point, because they're the most likely ones to uh get onto it and make it happen. Is that your sort of strategy that you get the bike advocates doing it? And then I don't want to use the word shaming too often, but they show an example to the more formal institutionalized cleaners who then say, uh we can't not do this given the the compelling economic case.

Cedric: 26:28

Yeah, I I imagine that does that does help. Like when the volunteers are doing the work, it does I guess it must shame the municipalities a little bit, but that's not my strategy personally. Like I actually focus on trying to inform municipalities of this as a as an option, as like a low-cost way of keeping bike lanes and shoulders safe. Um, and whoever you know reaches out to us and wants to buy a sweeper, we sell them a sweeper, right? So um so and it just has happens to be that it's mostly been cycling advocacy groups that have just been purchasing sweepers.

Peter: 26:57

Well, I imagine because partly because of just the the sexy just isn't the right word, but the looking at the picture of this sweeper in action, it's pretty compelling and pretty fun. Like just some guys, persons riding along on a bike, and suddenly this whole lane is clean behind them, and uh the debris is either collected or or shuffled shoveled to the side, and uh almost no cost, and uh, how could this not be attractive to to people? So if you are uh thinking ahead, so far you've been lucky enough to people just to make sales by picking up the phone. Uh except for obviously you do these forays to the Union of BC municipalities convention and and so on. But uh what's your next step in making new sales? And uh do you think that you've got five in the pipeline? Is this I could see that every municipality everywhere could use these things. So Cedric, where do you where do you go from here with your sales strategy if if you haven't got orders from the people that you contacted directly at the Union of BC Municipalities convention, uh, but you have been having success by people just hearing about it through social media. What's next?

Cedric: 28:09

With social media, it's been interesting because we neither myself nor my business collaborator Pierre, uh, who's in California, neither of us are very good at social media. But uh when we launched the Safe Cycling Sunshine Coast initiative with the crowdfunded sweeping here on the coast, uh local videographer Justin Surcot helped out um on a kind of pro bono basis with uh with making a video, a launch video for the Patreon campaign. And that was lots of fun working with him. And he he he helped out because you know it's great for the local community and he he cycles himself. And uh, but then that led to quite a bit of good social media content because of all the videos that he were taking. And then we were seeing a lot of uh a lot of excitement on social media, and so and then after that, there was that video in in in Portland that got five million views and led to a bunch of sales. So it seems like social media is quite helpful. So we're we're uh focusing on that lately.

Peter: 29:05

Aside from the barriers of contacting the buyers through the sales process, are there any uh this is a hard question for you maybe to ask. Are there any reasons why this wouldn't work? Are there like you don't have history of how long this thing will stand up to wear? Or uh I don't know. There needs to be improvements because people have taken it and found something lacking. Are there any legitimate objections that people have that you're working to overcome?

Cedric: 29:33

Yeah, for sure, for sure. So on the topic of wear, though, it's it's a very low maintenance machine, and the the brush is the one big thing that does wear out over time. The brushes are actually custom made in in Vancouver, and uh the manufacturer there interestingly can re-bristle brushes. So they can take like the plastic tube and pull out the old bristles and put in new bristles, but uh it's pretty normal for these kinds of maintenance equipment to regularly replace the brush, so that's no big deal. Um and there's no fancy hydraulics or anything on these sweepers, so they're generally very low maintenance, it's just an electric machine. Um and uh in terms of the limitations, yes. So if you have a whack load of leaves that are allowed to accumulate in the fall, and then those leaves are allowed to rot into like a thick sludge, that becomes so heavy that our sweepers, the current iteration of the sweepers is not powerful enough to remove like a thick leafy sludge. Um, and I'm actually in the process of prototyping with a more powerful motor for making the sweepers more effective for that kind of debris. But uh, yeah, ideally with leaves in the fall, ideally they're swept before they're allowed to rot. But uh, as long as the the people running the sweepers kind of stay on top of the maintenance, then it it still is quite effective even in that season.

Peter: 30:47

Cedric, I love this story. It's such a wonderful uh green technology, let's just say, uh locally manufactured, ingenuity, innovation, all those wonderful things we're all striving for. And I really hope you can make this pay and profitable and that you can keep it on the Sunshine Coast where I'm sure they could use jobs like yours to providing. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you think is important to add?

Cedric: 31:13

Yeah, so I'm sitting here like talking about this this project and makes it seem like I'm the main guy. But uh, there's a lot of other people that have been really helpful and supportive in making this bike lane sweeper project happen. Like one, for example, is Pierre. So Pierre Lermand, who's my business collaborator in California, he actually uh had the original idea for the bike lane sweeper. So he's a software engineer and he was working at PayPal there in California. And and during COVID, he had the idea for the sweeper and he was building some very janky prototypes out of like you know, two by fours and and whatnot. Um, and then I came on board and designed the refined sweeper, and we've been manufacturing them here. Uh, and he's just been handling kind of the business side of things in the US uh lately and just been kind of running the business side. But um, it's been really awesome working with Pia. So, like his support and collaboration has been really cool. Um, other people that have been really helpful, of course, the the transportation choices group on the Sunshine Coast that I mentioned earlier, like the everybody involved with TRAC and also the group Connect the Coast, all of the people involved with those two groups are just awesome and have been super supportive, as has been the entire community on the coasts. Also, even with the the manufacturing, there's people that I have to be thankful for. So it was pretty early on. I think it was the second prototype sweeper that I built. I rushed to build it before the BC bike show. I actually pulled an all-nighter right before the BC bike show to finish building this prototype sweeper, and I brought it there, and it was really fun to show it. And at the BC Bike Show, I met a Justin Lemire Elmore, who runs Grin Technologies in Vancouver, which is a company that offers e-bike motors and batteries uh for e-bike conversions for the converting, you know, whatever bike into being an e-bike, and a really awesome company. And they've they do a lot of their own manufacturing, like they manufacture their own e-bike motors and uh they have some fancy equipment, such as a laser cutter for cutting flat metal parts. And uh Justin has been super kind to let me use their laser cutter, and so a bunch of the parts of the sweepers are actually laser cut at current technologies in Vancouver. Um, so I'm really thankful for Justin's support and yeah, just a lot of people I gotta I gotta thank. But uh it's been really fun so far, and I'm keen to charge ahead and continue uh making sweepers.

Peter: 33:24

Who's put up the money to get you this far? Is it all self-funded out of your pocket, or do you have investors?

Cedric: 33:30

Um there's a number of investors. Um, some of them are are here on the Sunshine Coast and involved in the cycling community. Uh and that has been really helpful. It's it's great that lately, like I mentioned there, the the sweeper business is like paying for itself. So that's really nice. It reduces the pressure on that front. But uh, but yeah, it's not uh it's not a cheap process to set up a manufacturing operation. So that financial support has been awesome.

Peter: 33:52

Are you looking for more investors?

Cedric: 33:54

Yes.

Peter: 33:56

Okay, we'll have your contact in the show notes, along with the picture of all of the product and some videos, and uh this is it's very fun to watch these videos and see the testimonial from the from the woman in the Napa Valley. Cedric, thanks so much, and we wish you all the best. And let's hope we can all see them soon on streets near us. Thanks so much, Cedric. Thanks for having me, Peter. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating of whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca, you know.

Pedestrians and cyclists in BC are killed and injured at a rate that would never be accepted in any other public space. We ask a simple question with a complex political answer: if automated speed enforcement cuts injuries and deaths so reliably, why isn’t it everywhere it’s needed?

Dr. Brandon Yau, Medical Health Officer with Vancouver Coastal Health, helps us unpack how speed and red light cameras actually work, where they’re currently deployed, and what the data shows about their impact. We examine the “cash grab” myth head‑on and discuss how to design a fair program with clear signage, robust technology, and transparent, revenue‑neutral operations that reinvest any residual funds into road safety.

Peter Ladner: 0:27

Welcome to Bike Tent, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Every week in British Columbia, an average of one pedestrian is killed in a collision with a car. Every day, more than six pedestrians are injured in collisions with cars. Every year in BC, seven to nine cyclists are killed by cars. And every day, more than four cyclists are injured by car crashes. We have a problem. But we also have a solution. And what is frustrating and interesting to me is that we do not implement that solution. So today our guest is Dr. Brandon Yao, who is a medical health officer for Vancouver Coastal Health. He's based in Vancouver. He has some answers for us. What really causes accidents? Why are cars still being allowed to wreak this havoc on pedestrians, cyclists, and other vulnerable road users? And what could we do about that? Welcome, Dr. Yao. Thanks for having me, Peter. So you've told me this is what you consider a priority policy topic. Could you first explain why Vancouver Coastal Health is so in so interested in this topic?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 2:07

Yeah, absolutely. So my role at Vancouver Coastal Health as a medical health officer means that I am trained in public health and preventative medicine. And it really is to do with that public health and preventative medicine piece. Part of my role is to address illness and injury in our population. One of the top causes of injury hospitalization in British Columbia, as you've mentioned, is transport-related injuries. And this is across almost all age groups. So it really is brought to the top in terms of one of our top priorities to reduce the number of people who are injured on our roads. And automated speed enforcement, the topic of today, is really one of the best evidence-based interventions that we've been able to identify. And we really want to implement more widely across the province.

Peter Ladner: 2:59

I understand that in Vancouver alone, in the city, the cost the direct health costs from these kinds of injuries and crashes is$92,000 a day. So there's a very big financial factor at play here. But could you just explain to us now what is automated speed enforcement?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 3:18

Automated speed enforcement at a very simple level is just the use of technology to monitor and enforce speed limits on our roads, as well as other road rules such as red light running and things like that. It's more commonly known as kind of red light cameras or speed cameras to the public. Well, first of all, how much are we already using this technology? Our current intersection safety camera program consists of 140 cameras at high-risk intersections, and they are in 26 communities across British Columbia. A vast majority of those cameras are only looking at red light running offenses. And then a small number of them, 35, are looking at both red light running as well as speeding offenses.

Peter Ladner: 4:07

So 140 throughout the province. I would just reckon that there are many, many more dangerous intersections than that in the province. Never mind stretches of highway and places of school zones that require people to go slower. But for some reason, we've kind of stopped there. Who decides when and where these speed cameras or red light cameras are put in place?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 4:33

There's definitely a significant need for expansion of this program. And we'd have seen across many municipalities over many years requesting that the provincial government expand this program. So there is definitely a documented, significant need for more of this type of intervention. The province's response to the 2024 resolution calling for an expansion, they are a bit more open to examining it. So what the province has stated is that they are currently reviewing the current program and considering an expansion. And uh the information that I have is that they're considering an expansion for 2027, which may include new technologies and new funding models. So that may be something that's relevant because I think that that actually may be a policy window right now as well. In terms of your second question about how we identify these intersections, um, ICBC does have a complicated site selection model that identifies higher risk intersections for crashes and fatalities and severity of crashes. And so that's how they have decided where these ones exist. But I know that many municipalities and local communities have a lot of local knowledge and are have been identifying intersections and stretches of road that need more interventions and specifically requesting intersection safety cameras or or safety cameras in general in those areas as well.

Peter Ladner: 6:05

So before I ask questions about uh fighting back the cash grab accusation, do these intersection cameras work? Are they accurate? And are they how expensive are they to put in?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 6:16

They are they're incredibly effective. We have looked into the research uh examining their efficacy as well as their impact. And most of the research that's been done on speed enforcement or automated speed enforcement are based on real life um interventions in in multiple municipalities and multiple jurisdictions around the world. What they found, what these studies have found, is that these interventions can reduce by 50% uh crashes resulting in injury, up to 40% reduction in fatalities, up to 65% reduction in speeding. So, really, those are the types of endpoints that we are wanting to achieve. And so those are all very, very important. In terms of cost effectiveness, there's a cost-benefit ratio of around 1 to 14.5. So it is a relatively cost-effective intervention that not only saves lives, but it saves our system uh money as well. The available ICBC data that I was able to find showed that our program that was implemented in 2011 had a 14% reduction in collisions in the immediate year and a half after they introduced their intersection safety camera program. So we even have really local data to show that these interventions are really effective and save our system money.

Peter Ladner: 7:39

So they work, they save lives, they're cost effective, and you say the municipalities want them. Let's talk a little more about who wants them and who doesn't want them. What is the data on public support for these? Because I've got to say the word cash grab, which inevitably comes up when this topic is raised.

Dr. Brendon Yau: 7:59

We do have uh good polling data to demonstrate strong public support for these interventions. The data that I was able to find was from 2023, a public opinion survey that showed around uh 70% of British Columbians uh agreeing with uh the use of speed on green and red light camera enforcement. What does speed on green mean? Oh, that that essentially means speeding through intersections versus running a red light.

Peter Ladner: 8:26

Okay. 70% support. And the municipalities want it, the coastal health people want it, lives could be saved, money could be saved. Why don't we have more of it?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 8:38

Yeah, I think there are a lot of benefits. One of the barriers primarily is just that the uh program brings political risk. Yeah, essentially to anyone who wants to expand the program in British Columbia. Um, we have experience here in British Columbia in 2001 with our old uh photo radar program. Uh, and we have our provinces in Ontario and Alberta uh that have gone through recent shrinkage of the program or cancellation of these programs because of public backlash. So I think it's important for us to be aware of the political uh liability of owning a program or running a program that's not well managed or well operated.

Peter Ladner: 9:19

We're gonna get to to what it would take to make it more politically appealing in a minute. But do you have data on the actual potential political damage from bringing this in, other than some angry calls to talk shows? I mean, is there really a groundswell of opposition to these when the polls show that 70% of the people are in favor of them?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 9:39

Yeah, I think I don't have any specific data to speak to that point, but I think the experience in other provinces, as well as British Columbia in in the 2000s, really demonstrate how quickly things can turn if this is not a well-run program. Uh and so, yeah, generally people do support this intervention, but uh there are definitely a lot of pitfalls to running it. So just making sure that all of those pieces are in place uh to ensure that there's a longevity of this program because we know that it can and it does save lives.

Peter Ladner: 10:14

Let's talk about what a well-run program is. But first, I just want to mention I read somewhere about some stretch of road in some town where they set some the cameras up and they were just nailing car after car after car and bringing in, they were, I think, using it to finance the municipality. And there was no warning. People were very angry because the common speed through that area was higher than the limit. And I could fully understand how people could be angry about that. But your research has shown that there are ways to set this up where people don't get angry and they understand and they feel it's a fair call. Tell us more about that.

Dr. Brendon Yau: 10:53

Yes, uh, the BC Injury Prevention Committee, which is a group of injury prevention uh folks at health authorities, uh, conducted a research study and a public opinion polling study that looked at this specific question because we do want to kind of have widespread public understanding and support for these interventions. And so some of the findings from that survey was essentially that um elements that increased public support uh included the fact that there were no surprises that this enforcement was in place. So something as simple as signage to warn uh drivers or motorists that enforce automated enforcement was in effect to ensure revenue transparency. So just again, being clear about and communicating to the public how the revenues from the fines were being directed to road safety measures. And the other pieces were more so about uh ensuring that technology is uh robust and reliable and good technical design, and then as well as community engagement as well. And so those pieces really can increase uh public support and kind of continue the um longevity of the program.

Peter Ladner: 12:03

So transparency just means putting some signs up saying caution, this area is under camera surveillance or something.

Dr. Brendon Yau: 12:10

Yeah. Essentially how this works in some jurisdictions is that there'll just be a sign to say automated enforcement in effect. So just to give people an awareness so that they're not caught by surprise.

Peter Ladner: 12:21

And when people see that, does that slow them down in itself?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 12:25

Yeah, so I mean, that's part of the effect and the brilliance of this program is that uh not only it really is one of the few interventions that addresses driver behavior, and we see that um impact long-lasting in the in the research evidence. So we see people slowing down, which is the risk factor or the behavior that is the greatest risk of an injurious crash. I just want to also mention that um the issue of the cash grab, I think one of the pitfalls that we can fall into is to try to sell this program, especially in our current economic and political times as a revenue generating system. We need to be careful about that because a well-run, effective program would not generate revenue. People would be driving below the speed limits because that's what we want. We don't want to collect lots of money from drivers who are speeding. We want people to not speed because we don't want people to be injured or die on our roads. So that's a critical piece because I hear that a lot from advocates sometimes to say, oh, we need these cameras so that we can catch those bad actors. Uh yes, we do, but it's primarily about uh reducing the behavior in the first place.

Peter Ladner: 13:43

Do you think these should be revenue neutral? I don't I'm not sure what that means, like just paying for the cost of the cameras or or what? Because that expression comes up sometimes.

Dr. Brendon Yau: 13:52

And the the evidence from other jurisdictions that have uh really well-run programs, I think Australia is one of those examples. Uh, they do have and they do run a revenue neutral program. And I think it is strategic to communicate that to the public so that they don't get this perception that it's a cash grab, that the intention is to run a revenue neutral program. And the more that they're able to demonstrate that it's revenue neutral, the more that they're really able to focus on the why of having this program in the first place. And they're not trying to um uh to unnecessarily tax their citizens. They don't necessarily want to add that. They want to reduce injuries. And so I think it uh ensures that we remain laser focused on the actual uh goal of the program.

Peter Ladner: 14:38

And you mentioned that the proceeds should or do go to road safety measures. Is that the case in BC?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 14:46

Yeah, so my understanding is that uh currently in British Columbia, the kind of the revenues from the violation tickets are combined with all violation ticket revenues, and then they're sent back to the municipalities as general revenue. Um so uh it so in based on that, I don't think that our program right now in British Columbia kind of fulfills that checkbox of being able to say back to our communities the revenues are going back to improve road safety. So it would be ideal if any of the revenue, and hope, you know, the smaller the revenue actually, the better the program is running. So the small amount of revenue that is generated should be going back to improve road safety because it it's a great kind of um self-fulfilling loop in some ways.

Peter Ladner: 15:33

I I love the idea of thinking of this as a cost-saving grab in that you can eliminate the cost of police officers huddling behind a tree with a radar gun and some up the road picking up uh speeders, which seems to me uh bizarrely and grossly uh last century way of trying to trying to identify and enforce uh speeding problems. But I also heard that when people have been nailed by these cameras, there's a very impressive rate of improved uh behavior afterwards.

Dr. Brendon Yau: 16:12

Yeah, I um I think that's kind of borne out in the the speed data that's uh in places where these have been implemented. So we often do see a uh increase in uh fines or infractions early on in the implementation of these uh speed cameras, and then they quickly drop and level out. That really demonstrates that driver behavior is really effectively impacted. Um, and I think maybe I'll just since you mentioned law enforcement, I failed to mention one of the great benefits of this program as well is that it kind of reduces law enforcement um time on enforcing speed on our roads and it kind of allows them to focus on other policing priorities. There are also some areas, uh some roads and some uh spaces where it's not safe for law enforcement to be uh on the road enforcing speed or or monitoring speed. So it there's a lot of benefits for law enforcement as well. And we try to work closely with our law enforcement partners to kind of build support for this program because I think that there's a lot of natural alignment with their work as well.

Peter Ladner: 17:21

Do the RCMP and the municipal police like these cameras?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 17:25

Yeah, I've not been in contact with RCMP specifically, but from what I've heard at the city of Vancouver is that there is what they are building support from the chief of police currently to with this program. Um, and I I think that there have been other municipalities that have spoken to their chiefs of police and RCMP. And I I think I I don't see anticipate a lot of opposition because it really supports their work and their mandate to public safety.

Peter Ladner: 18:03

Now I know Vancouver Coastal Health is not in the business of being lobbyists with the provincial government or whoever, but I you you like to say you're you're advocates for safety measures. Fair enough. Uh who else is involved in advocacy of this? I know Vision Zero is an organization that's just starting to find its feet in BC in some municipalities. There are obviously individuals on councils and and elsewhere, cycling organizations who would like to see this, but who's pushing for it and what is the most effective way, do you think, to have more of these cameras brought in?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 18:41

Yeah, I think there's a lot of grassroots um movements and grassroots organizations pushing for this. Organizations like like the BC Cycling Coalition, like Hub Cycling. Um, I've seen lots of community organizations in the Sunshine Coast within Vancouver Coastal Health really taking road safety into their own hands because they perceive a lack of kind of uh leadership at our provincial govern at our provincial level. So there's a lot of local organizing that's happening. I do think that on this specific um issue at hand, uh the municipalities really are leading the way. Um I did a review of a recent UBCM or UBC, the Union of BC municipalities resolutions in the past several years. And there have been dozens of municipalities that have expressed support. There have been many resolutions that have been passed uh year after year calling for an expansion of this program. Um there's been multiple council letters to the BC government to support the expansion of this program. So uh municipalities have really been leading the way for many, many years. And so I think part of my role is to kind of help support that with the health rationale or the health lens and to bring that to the fore. Ultimately, this is a the in in British Columbia, this is a program that's run by ICBC and Road Safety BC. So they're the ultimate um deciders, uh, but there is good movement in the past several years. And it seems like the provincial government has been a little bit more receptive in the past several years than they have been previously.

Peter Ladner: 20:28

I do remember, I think it was Gordon Campbell many years ago, who, in an act of what was seen or portrayed as populist pulse taking, saying, we're getting rid of these. There's freedom for drivers now from now on. I don't know whether that, uh, whatever data or instincts drove that decision are still at play in the provincial government and making them somewhat fearful of offending certain drivers who think they have a right to drive around and kill people.

Dr. Brendon Yau: 21:00

What's front in mind for me is just the experience in in Ontario and Alberta and how quickly it can be a political win to not have these types of programs. And so I think that that is the major challenge that we have to kind of encounter because the the argument for it is maybe somewhat more nuanced. You know, the the scary thing of being fined or taxed is always an easy sell for people. Uh, whereas the safety uh argument can be a little bit more challenging to convince uh the public. Yeah.

Peter Ladner: 21:35

We're we've talked mostly now here about cameras, uh, but there are other ways technology can be used to slow down traffic and keep people within the speed limits. Uh those signs with the readout boards that say how fast you're going and how much the speed limit is, pretty simple, uh unintrusive, but are they effective?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 21:57

Yeah, the the research that I've seen shows that they are relatively effective. That's purely educational in some ways and maybe a little bit of peer pressure. So there's no enforcement attached to that, but I think it can be insightful. People may not realize how quickly they're they're going down a road. Uh, and so those are kind of interventions that can be strategically placed that can influence driver behavior. I'm not sure if they are as effective as speed enforcement, but I think that there is definitely some evidence to show that those uh can be effective if placed in the right uh situation.

Peter Ladner: 22:34

One would assume they are because you see them so often. Uh there's another measure. I mean, I'm sure there are many. Well, a couple others I'd like to mention. One is this system where at the beginning of a stretch of highway, you're warned that the average speed on this highway cannot exceed, say, I don't know, 100 kilometers an hour. And you're everybody who goes through is is clocked or photographed at the beginning and at the end, and if your speed at that time comes out over the limit, you're fined. And you can speed up along the way to pass somebody or something, but you can't keep a consistent higher speed. Do we have any of those in the works or coming in BC that you're aware of?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 23:14

Yeah, I I think what you're describing may be something called point-to-point cameras. And it would um in my hierarchy, and I don't know if this is a correct hierarchy, but that fits under automated speed enforcement as a general category. Yeah, you're right. There's there's a camera at the beginning, there's a camera at the end, and it kind of uh kind of tracks how fast you go through by making that calculation. I I think that this is uh a potential uh addition to our current system in British Columbia, primarily because it doesn't rely on being on it at an intersection. Um I know that intersections are one of the highest risk locations for collisions, um, but highways are also high risk. So it so it's a unique application for uh highways where people may be traveling at extremely high speeds. And I believe that that is under consideration for uh for a potential expansion of our system. Yeah. That would be interesting.

Peter Ladner: 24:10

Another area that I've heard about, and I can really see the political dangers of this one. We already have governors on e-bikes. They can't go over 32Ks. We have governors on the big trucks, they have a limitation on how fast they can go. In between, all the majority of the vehicles can go as fast as they want. It would be very simple to put something in the car that prevents them from going over a certain speed. Or even in a very sophisticated world that knows what speed limit is at a particular place and then it adjusts accordingly. Do you see that coming? Is that in any way politically feasible? And if so, have you studied that at all?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 24:54

I haven't looked at any of the research on that or or the emerging research on that, I should say. Um, it's an interesting kind of potentially new intervention. Yeah, I it's it's hard to say because I don't think that this has been really studied or implemented anywhere that I'm aware of. But um, with more uh use of kind of uh satellite technology, our maps are able to tell us how fast we should be going when we're driving and we're using that technology. It would definitely be possible. It's interesting because you know the automated speed enforcement technology that we're talking about is is quite old. Um it's just and it's it's it's been proven. Uh, I think the challenge is that they've not been effectively utilized in our jurisdiction necessarily. So uh thinking about the newer technology is really interesting and how it can really improve road safety significantly more. Yeah, the best evidence that I'm aware of is is from kind of our our dated but uh underutilized technologies like ASC.

Peter Ladner: 25:58

Well, one place that they could be tested would be in municipal fleets or corporate fleets where uh those particular vehicles would be held back to a certain speed limit by something in inside the vehicle. Uh and perhaps that would be a way to test it and begin its implementation. Dr. Yao, uh I am thinking I've covered all that I'm interested in covering this in this question. With one exception, you're with Vancouver Coastal Health. If somebody were in, say, Prince George or Fort St. John and they thought we've got to get going on this, do could they call their health authorities? Would they have people in their health authorities who would also be experts in this and willing to lend some local health and and money saving data to their arguments?

Dr. Brendon Yau: 26:46

Yeah, absolutely. There are uh kind of public health teams from uh health authorities all across the province. Uh and so road safety is important for public health all across British Columbia. So if anyone's interested in working with us, we're we're always welcome to speak with them and to kind of work with our elected officials to improve road safety in whatever way we can.

Peter Ladner: 27:09

Well, thank you so much for your work on this. And uh it's sometimes these seem like strange bedfellows, cyclists and and doctors and and public health authorities, but it's all really very much the same thing. We're trying to make the roads safer for more indifferent and better or even ways of getting around. And if cars are going too fast, that's not going to happen. So thank you for your work in raising our awareness of this and keeping the research alive and helping people who want to make these, what could be politically tough decisions, have some data behind them and show that they really do make a lot of sense.

Dr. Brendon Yau: 27:49

Yeah, much appreciated for having me and for uh for the platform.

Peter Ladner: 27:58

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca

NOTE: This episode originally aired in October of 2023. Since then, Brendan and Amanda and family have moved from Whistler to Nelson, BC. They now own a family car, which they mostly use to get to the mountain to ski. They continue to cycle year-round.

Peter Ladner brings in son Brendan and daughter-in-law Amanda to expose the reality of life as a bikes-only family in Whistler, BC. We talk ice, snow, studded tires, e-bikes, singing kids, irate drivers, and Whistler's political will ... or notable lack thereof.
 
 Read about the Whistler Climate Action Plan at
 www.whistler.ca/climate-action/big-moves
 
Please feel free to reach out to Amanda Ladner at amandabelle@gmail.com if you'd like to talk Whistler, bikes, or family cycling.

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Since, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in AC. I'm your host, Peter Latvier, the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guests today are Brendan and Amanda Latier. This is the nepotism podcast. Brennan is my son, Amanda's my daughter-in-law, and they are the parents of my two of my grandchildren. Um Gavin and Soren, age nine and six. And the reason that we're talking is that Brennan and Amanda live in Whistler, and they have not had a car for I'll get the exact number of years. How many years?

Brendan Ladner: 0:56

We're moving on three years here.

Peter Ladner: 0:57

Three years without a car, and they've done everything they need to do with two e-bikes and sometimes some trailers. We're going to get into how they made it all work. But first of all, welcome Brennan, welcome Amanda.

Brendan Ladner: 1:11

Happy to be here.

Amanda Ladner: 1:12

Yay.

Peter Ladner: 1:15

Amanda, could you describe from your point of view what it's been like to have two bikes, no car?

Amanda Ladner: 1:24

Uh it's been a process that we've had to learn over time. Um, and I think that's with any uh big change you make. Uh it's a big change, so then you have to keep adapting and responding to that and uh and just making the priority about safety always.

Peter Ladner: 1:44

Can you tell us tell us what you do specifically with the kids and the bikes?

Amanda Ladner: 1:51

Yeah, so we yeah, we take them to school. Um, that's every day. Uh we take them to the mountain. So on the weekends when the snow comes, we bike them straight to the foot of the mountain and uh and get on the lift. And uh we bike them to the grocery store and we grocery shop. Uh and if we need to travel, we've even biked, uh, we've put the bikes on uh the bus and we've taken the bikes to Vancouver and then onwards to Victoria, and then we get off the bus and then we bike to where our travel destination is, wherever that might be. So we bike all around. And and as transportation becomes more accessible for e-bikes, we'll continue to expand uh how far we go. But certainly uh it has uh made our footprint smaller in the sense that we don't try to go as far places, we don't necessarily go up to Pemberton just for you know on a whim or up to Joffrey Lakes. We have to be very conscious of using and utilizing the neighborhood and the amenities that we have close by.

Peter Ladner: 3:02

Brendan, what have you learned and how have you adjusted as the years go by on e-biking everywhere?

Brendan Ladner: 3:12

Well, boy, we've learned a lot. Well, first we got an e-bike and then we learned that we needed two e-bikes because we competed for who would get the e-bike. Because you realize, for example, going to the ski hill, it's so much easier with an e-bike than walking or driving because you can drive your e-bike right to the edge of the snow, park within a few steps of the lifts, and so we used to fight about who got to take the e-bike to the mountain to go skiing because the other person didn't want to have to walk home the whole ten minutes.

Peter Ladner: 3:54

So you've got two bikes, but you've also got did you have to get trailers? Do you want the kids just right on behind you on the seat? How does that work?

Brendan Ladner: 4:02

Well, first you have to decide what bike is best suited for your needs. So in our case, we want a bike that can carry two kids on it. Uh sometimes three kids if they have friends with us. And uh so we we demoed a few bikes. And for example, the rad wagon has a very long wheelbase. It's quite difficult to maneuver. And in Whistler, uh because they've built so many impediments to the smooth travel of bicycles, you have to go through these gates and do these awkward turns and things. And it was all it was very, very difficult to do that in a safe way because you have to come basically to a complete stop on a rad wagon. So we found that the volt bike Kodiak that we got was a better choice for what we needed. It's more agile, and actually, since then, other parents have replaced their rad wagon with ours by speaking to us about what we do. So you need the right bike for that. Um, also, it's got enough enough power to be able to carry two or three people on it and get you up the hills.

Peter Ladner: 5:15

So let's cut to the winter. Everybody's thinking, how do you do this when there's ice and snow on the road? Amanda, how does it work?

Amanda Ladner: 5:25

Yeah, so it admittedly, the first year we did not have the right setup. Uh, we we I did have some slips, um, and so I definitely encourage everyone to speak to someone that does it and learn about uh how to do it. Um it it's there's multiple steps to it. One is knowing your route really well already and knowing the places that are you know potentially uh you can slip on. So knowing your route and using the same route daily because you'll see it change. Um, second for me, the big life changer was the year uh that we got snow tires. So as soon as we got winter tires with studs in them.

Brendan Ladner: 6:14

Studded, yeah, studded tires.

Amanda Ladner: 6:16

Studded tires, it just changed my life. Uh, it really made me it's very safe to ride on snow, ice, any kind of conditions. You feel very supported. Um, you still have to be very conscientious and and watch where you're going. But the studded tires has changed my life. And so now I feel much more comfortable going out in all conditions when it's snowing. Um, yeah, but certainly Brendan does the major snow days, admittedly, yes. He's he'll still do those, um, which just so that I I'm not as he feels more comfortable. Um, I didn't grow up biking in the snow, even though I grew up in Edmonton. I that wasn't part of our everyday. So yeah, the studded tires. Then the next thing is you have to dress properly. You actually have to wear a full ski outfit, um, insulated, warm on an e-bike. It is cold. Uh, you need to wear proper gloves, a helmet, and goggles because when it's snowing, you can't see as well. So you need to be able to have goggles so you can see in all lights, just like you would up the mountain.

Peter Ladner: 7:26

Brendan, can you elaborate on clothing and ways to keep warm and dry? You've got to get the kids on all the kids have to wear all this stuff too.

Brendan Ladner: 7:36

Well, yeah, the kids, it's great if the kids have uh a onesie, but they're wearing ski gear.

Peter Ladner: 7:41

Well, not everybody. Yeah, but not everybody listening to this is.

Brendan Ladner: 7:44

Okay, so let's go, let's go through what that is, right? You have a base layer, you which basically uh we live in the mountains, so I'm wearing a base layer on my pants uh starting end of October till the end of April. Every day, all day, no matter what I'm wearing, unless I'm uh at work.

Peter Ladner: 7:59

That's like long underwear.

Brendan Ladner: 8:01

Long underwear, yeah, like a merino wool base layer. Then you have whatever the pants are, let's call it a pair of jeans or a pair of pants, and then you have uh snow pants. Now, those snow pants, they gotta be loose. Right? If you have them tight fitting, which might work for skiing, it's not the same because you're bringing one knee up with the other knee down, you need more room to move, right? So I've tried, I've actually had three different pairs of pants, but I keep going back to the original pair because they have the best mobility. That pair needs to be insulated. Just a simple shell means you would need another layer of pants underneath. That gets a lot clunkier and tougher to move in. So having uh an insulated pant that is, let's call it one size too big for you, with a waist that you can get tightened, tightened. Now, also it's gonna get really dirty. Right? You're gonna get dirty slush, you're gonna get stuff off your chain, etc. etc. So uh just be ready that they're gonna get dirty. So it was easy for me to choose. I went to the thrift store, I got a pair, and then the last thing is is make sure that they're waterproof. Right? Water resistant, anything below the top level of waterproof is not good enough because you are gonna get soaked. Um, moving up the body, uh, much to my wife's dismay, I wear a workman's jacket uh from Mark's Workwear World that has the big reflective thing on it, so it's like a reflective vest because I feel safer on darker mornings, having more visibility. Also, the jacket is immediately warm when you put it on and is pretty good, except for on the wettest of days. And the wettest of days, you gotta wear the actual Gore-Tex, where you know your Heli Hansen, Arcteryx, whatever, that high-end Gore-Tex that will really keep you dry. The goggles need to be light, so yellow or clear. As if you're going night skiing, because you're gonna be biking at night. If you have any tint in them, it's gonna impede your visibility. And then lastly, uh it's the mitts, bar mitts, they're called, which are the neoprene pockets that sit on the outside of your uh handlebars. That's gonna keep your hands dry and warm and keep the wind off. I tried Hestra gloves, I tried snowmobiling gloves, I bought all different pairs of gloves, and nothing will keep your hands warm. You can wear lousy gloves in the bar beds, and your hands will stay warm because there's no wind and there's no water, there's no snow getting onto your hands. So, from the gear perspective, that's my additions to Amanda's uh insights there.

Peter Ladner: 10:41

Okay, so now you're warm and dry and you got your studded tires. Amanda, where do you go where you're not gonna be in danger of being hit by a car or a truck?

Amanda Ladner: 10:53

Well, it's an important question because where do you go? It's uh you do need to share the roads. Um, you're you're gonna be sharing the roads, and so the municipalities that are making bikes a priority, that means before cars, before trucks. That's what making biking is a priority in terms of the their those individuals' safety. It's a net gain to everyone, the municipalities that are actually trying to make biking safe. It is just an ultimate gain for all the community. And so, admittedly, I'm gonna say there's certain municipalities that are making it safe, it's doing their best. Uh, Vancouver and Victoria are some of the best places to bike. And and and I know that I spoke to the Gibson's mayor, and he is also very invested in this as well. So we'll see if he does it. Um, but yeah, where do I go? I mean, I prefer to bike on the Valley Trail. And the problem with that is that it's caused our community a quite a bit of upheaval because my e-bike goes 20 kilometers an hour and I'm moving quickly, and there's and we're sharing the path with pedestrians, cyclists that are not on e-bikes, mountain bikers, dog walkers, right? So it's becoming that traffic and that ability to maneuver around multiple flows within the valley trail system is now something that is causing us to change and adapt as a community. And as I said earlier in this podcast, it's been an adaptation and evolution since we started and moved here. Um, certainly when we first moved here, we were some of the only ones electric with electric bikes on everyday commuting versus some people will take out electric bikes just for a fun lifestyle or tourist engagement for an hour of a day, right? So it's not, there was a little bit of e-biking, but it wasn't like it is three years later. Now what we're seeing is more and more families and parents inspired and motivated to take their kids on an e-bike because it's just easier in a hilly place to get your kids around, get them to soccer practice, get them to, you know, this year we've been in baseball now three years, and we started being the only electric bike family coming in onto the baseball diamond with our two kids. But now we come to baseball and there's all those electric bikes with all their kids. Um, and that's great because uh more and more what we're seeing is that that's beneficial for children as well to be spending time outside um for that longer period of time. And and so we'll see. I'm sure that those families are also having um challenges and adapting as we've had to do. And so now more and more families will ask us about our tires and how we set up our baskets and all of this. So it's a it's a learning, it's a learning together, and we need to continue to be learning together and and helping each other out.

Peter Ladner: 14:14

So, Amanda, you've talked about how some parents have been inspired. Brendan, can you talk a little more about the reaction you get when you're riding around on an e-bike, either from parents or drivers or politicians that you're lobbying to try to get support? What's it been like?

Brendan Ladner: 14:32

Well, there's a few layers to that. Uh, because when you're biking in the winter, you have to bike where it's plowed. And the valley trail, which uh is a multi-use path, gets plowed most of the time, especially if you call them and tell them it hasn't been plowed. Uh, but they aren't, it's not always plowed ready for your morning commute. However, the roads are always plowed for your morning commute. So you end up having to bike on the road, and when you bike on the road, you have to bike where it's plowed, which means that you are in the way of people driving cars and trucks, and even though the speed limit's 30, and even though we have studded tires and we're going 30, they get very impatient.

Peter Ladner: 15:21

So just let me be clear are you out in the traffic, like in the same path as the cars and trucks, or are you just off to the side but not very far off?

Brendan Ladner: 15:29

You there's only a path wide enough for one car. You can't be on the side, otherwise you're in a foot of snow. You're talking about on residential streets or on the highway. I'm talking about residential streets on snowy days.

Peter Ladner: 15:45

Yeah.

Brendan Ladner: 15:45

Uh in fact, to get from our house to school, there is no multi-use path to take. You have to go on the road. Right? Because otherwise, if we took the multi-use path, we would take a four-kilometer trip, which is otherwise 1.6 kilometers, uh, if we stay on the roads. So we have to bike on the roads. And when it snows, you have to bike where it's been plowed, which means you are therefore in the way of a truck that is capable of going faster than the speed limit, with a driver that desperately wants to go faster than you. So uh what we find is like definitely on the snowy days when you have to go in the middle of the road, you will be subjected to aggressive behavior by impatient drivers because there's not like if it was a plastic bag on the road, people would slow down, oh, what's that? Drive around it. But if it's a cyclist deliberately in front of you, being safe with their family, I don't know if anything enrages pickup truck drivers more than that. And so we get subjected to close passes, we get subjected to yelling, people have thrown stuff at us, um, lots of dangerous driving behavior. And unfortunately, you gotta build a thick skin if you want to be a change maker because the trucks are the status quo, and we're trying to make positive change, and we're just actually trying to get around on a bike, and uh sometimes you have to I've had I know Amanda's had more experiences than me because people will uh speak down to women more than to men. So, but uh, anyways, you have to share the road. So there's confrontation, and to get through the center of Whistler, the village, which is our town center, there is no multi-use path to get around. There's only sidewalks where you have to walk your bike. So you are forced to go on the roads. So unfortunately, we are forced through the design of the infrastructure of our town to be in conflict with drivers uh on snowy days.

Peter Ladner: 17:46

Talk a little bit about the kids. Like they're what it's like for them to either be on the on the on the bike on a happy day or when somebody's yelling at you. Amanda? Do they enjoy it? Do they look forward to getting on the bike?

Amanda Ladner: 18:04

Oh, yeah. I mean, well, again, so you have to understand that there isn't an option, right? Like we there's not another choice. That's how we get around. So the kids, uh the kids are definitely of, you know, they enjoy it. When we first started, my younger one used to sing the whole time. He would just sing and he would sing me as we, you know, biked around the town and um even on snowy days, you know. So uh I I think they have, you know, what we would term a grittiness for it, um, which is is built, it's developed. Um, they know they need to dress in a certain way. They will sometimes choose to not, but that that has its own consequences. Um, but I mean, and definitely the safety, safety first. So we're always trying to be safe. Um I have to say, like, my kids don't like it when we get verbally abused by drivers. Like they will start now shouting back and uh and because they feel it and it's it's very it's very unkind towards us. Um it's uh they know that it it's it not only distracts us, but it it uh it it really impacts us. It's very stressful to be yelled at by cars and trucks and taxi drivers. Get out of the way. You shouldn't be on the road. Like, well, where are we supposed to go? Um, and so it uh I have uh contacted the municipality and telling them that we are abused because we don't have our own space to bike. And so is you know, it's more than just a safety issue uh for us sharing the path. It's a safety issue for our own uh emotional and psychological safety. Um, and it's it's very, it's it's very sad actually. It's sad that drivers are so anxious about us being on the road, they don't want to hit us. You know, they don't want to do that. And so there's a fear. There is a fear that somewhere in that anger, and I hear it and I do have compassion for it. Uh, but I just every time I just want to say, well, then tell your municipality to prioritize bikes so that we don't have to share the road.

Peter Ladner: 20:30

Let's talk about that for a minute. Uh, as you may know, the BC Cycling Coalition is championing safe routes throughout the province. And Whistler actually ranks pretty high by by the number of kilometers of so-called protected uh routes for cyclists. Um, Brendan, you've taken this pretty seriously, I know, and you ran for council, almost got elected. Uh on this is part of your platform. What has been the reaction from the politicians? Because you Whistler, along with so many other municipalities, has an active transportation plan that purports to be delivering the very benefits that you're looking for. The province has a clean BC plan that's trying to get people supposedly out of their cars to doing the very things you're doing, but it doesn't sound like it's landing very well on the road. So discuss the just tell us a little bit about the political climate, the support for what you're doing at the municipal level.

Brendan Ladner: 21:28

Well, first, uh I'm gonna question the methodology of the BC Cycling Coalition to have been able to give Whistler a good score because multi-use path is not a protected bike lane.

Peter Ladner: 21:38

Well, let's be clear. We're not advocates of multi-use paths either, but uh it's not our rankings, but other people who have said by some measures of of uh comfort and convenience and so on, you do have to be.

Brendan Ladner: 21:50

Whistler has Whistler has exactly six feet of protected bike lane. Six total feet of bike-only infrastructure, and it's not even open because they built it and never connected it on either end. There is nowhere in Whistler where bike has priority. Zero kilometers. Any not even one square inch of Whistler prioritizes cycling. Because it's all valley trail, which we is our multi-use path network here, and it says very clearly that pedestrians have right of way, dogs have right of way, the speed limit is 15 kilometers an hour, and that is the core of our cycling infrastructure in Whistler. In fact, that's the entirety of the cycling infrastructure in Whistler. And so uh, as Amanda's already talked about, you're forced into conflict with people who don't want you there. And car drivers who are taking their dogs for walks on the trail really do not want you and your family and your trailer and your kids going 30 kilometers trying to get where you want to go.

Peter Ladner: 22:57

Okay, but let's get back to the politics. You Amanda mentioned you you you talked to the Muni. What do they say? Why do are they actually going to fix it?

Brendan Ladner: 23:06

They throw up their hands. They say, We've got this amazing valley trail. What are you talking about? Why aren't you using it? Why aren't you taking this meandering trail that takes twice as many kilometers to get you where you want to go? That's the they think they've already they've already done it, and they shrug their shoulders because they don't bike.

Amanda Ladner: 23:26

Yeah.

Brendan Ladner: 23:26

The politicians don't bike.

Amanda Ladner: 23:28

Hey, yeah. Cathy bikes.

Brendan Ladner: 23:31

Kathy bikes. But also there is biking of a uh driver's mindset of cyclists who have people who have cars who think car first, and then there's people who only have bikes. And when you only have a bike, you see the world through a different lens. And I think it's psychologically impossible for the people in government in Whistler to think cyclists first. Now they've had since 2012, the tr every transportation plan that's ever been released says we will prioritize biking and walking, yet there is not even one inch of cycle-only trail in Whistler.

Amanda Ladner: 24:10

And it's our number one climate action that they're we're trying to take in our big six climate actions is to encourage people to take to bike and walk, which is so funny. It's like their number one priority, and they're they themselves, the politicians, except for Kathy, don't bike. And I so then I've called them out via letters to the peak newspaper or local saying, have you tried it? Have you actually done it? Because once you do it and you try to get to the library, to the school, right, to to the grocery store, the three most important things, you don't have safe biking. It is not safe. And I need to I need to take my kids to the library and I need to take my kids to the mountain. And so, and so every day we are negotiating our own safety. Every day.

Brendan Ladner: 25:02

And and to do it, you almost have to put your elbows out and take up space on the road so you're not pushed off the road. And by doing so, it is perceived by the drivers that we are creating the conflict when actually we just want to be safe.

Peter Ladner: 25:19

Well, I should say that uh the BC Cycle Coalition and numerous other cycling advocates have been championing a safe passing distance where a car passing a bike would have to keep at least one meter, 1.5 meters away. Uh, I'm not sure that's gonna have a lot of impact in your situation. But uh I wanted to just um change subject slightly. Uh we talked about your you're only with e-bikes. First of all, does it have to be an e-bike? Do you see people who don't have e-bikes but just have regular bikes?

Brendan Ladner: 25:48

It absolutely must be an e-bike. 125%. Uh you have hills, you have weight. You can't take two kids. And then the other thing we haven't even talked about here so far is that you have to have a trailer. Yeah. The trailer is the trunk of the car that you're towing behind your bike. That's how you carry your groceries, that's how you carry your skis, that's how you carry your picnic stuff, your festival chairs, your blankets, your coolers, uh, all of those things. So uh you have to have that, and you can't possibly tow that up a hill pedaling because you'll get you'll start sweating in 10 pedals.

Peter Ladner: 26:21

Okay, so you've got the e-bikes, but and you've mentioned that sometimes you'll be going to Vancouver, so you put the e-bikes in the in the bus because you can't drive to Vancouver in your car. Uh what are other some some other workarounds? You must take taxis at some point, you must rent cars and so on. And if you could just talk about that and also the the savings, you're s yeah, like have you worked out the dollar savings of doing this versus owning a car?

Brendan Ladner: 26:46

Either one of you can Yeah, the uh when uh the average car owner in Canada spends eleven thousand dollars a year on their car. And let's say you're being cheap and you have a beater and you don't have to repair it much, you're probably paying half that much. You know? Um so if you consider your budget of even if it's$500 per month, well, it costs nine cents to fill a bike battery from zero to full. Um so basically the cost of the energy is negligible. Uh which means that there are times where you will take a taxi, but you don't flinch at it because you've saved all this money. Of course, splash on a taxi, treat yourself. You're going out for a nice dinner, you dress nice, take a taxi, of course, take a taxi. If we want to go to uh visit our relatives somewhere else in British Columbia, we rent a car. But you have budget to do that, you don't flinch. And did you know renting a car for an entire month is only fourteen hundred dollars for a brand new car? It's not even that expensive, it's barely much more than owning a car yourself. So we do spend money on those things. Uh and when we go to Vancouver, we take the bus, and what we've learned is gosh, is it more relaxing taking the bus? You don't worry about traffic, you get to go through HOV lanes, and then we get there, we take our bikes out of the bottom and we can zip around Vancouver faster than you could in a car. And it's fun.

Peter Ladner: 28:21

Yeah, how much fun is it? Because we always say that cycling is more fun, but then those people, if you're sitting in your the comfort of your car and you're looking at somebody in the rain and the snow, and the you can't, you wonder, that's not possibly fun. Is it fun?

Brendan Ladner: 28:36

Hell yeah, it's fun. Even in the rain and snow, it's fun. Because when you're in the elements and you're out there, like actually feeling the world on your skin, it feels good.

Amanda Ladner: 28:48

Yeah.

Brendan Ladner: 28:48

And there's no doubt that our kids arrive at school, our teachers have told us this. That the kids arrive at school more invigorated. First of all, they're always properly dressed for school because they had to to get to school. So playtime and stuff, they have the right gear instead of being thrown into a warm car. Uh and we, you know, we chit-chat and we sing and we do all kinds of stuff while we're biking in the elements. And like our kids don't care if it's minus 20 and snowing. They don't even they never mention it. Is it is it a like torrential rainstorm? They don't care. Because they've got the right gear. It's fun. We're just getting over that's how we get around.

Peter Ladner: 29:28

Is it always fun for you, Amanda?

Amanda Ladner: 29:32

Is it always fun? It's both. It's both challenging. And so in that way, it is fun. Um, and uh, you know, I'm gonna be honest, some days it's very uncomfortable, you know. And so we've we're always adapting and trying to make it more comfortable, more safe. And so this is a constant adaptation. And yeah, I've you know, the more comfortable you are, uh, the more, the more you enjoy. Enjoy it. So dress warm uh and on rainy days, uh dress properly, right? So that you arrive in your place and you're you just take off all your stuff. You don't, you know, and then you're you're basically in your clothes. So the nice thing about e-biking is that you'll minorly sweat. So those uh end-of-use facilities that everyone is promoting, sure, that's good. You're it's better just to have a proper hanger for people and boots so that people can basically almost dry their stuff versus having a whole, you don't need a whole shower and stuff, right? That would be involved if you were just cycling to work. Um, so I like that. I like that you don't arrive all sweaty. Um, but you've still been outside enjoying the elements and getting to your place quicker than a vehicle.

Peter Ladner: 30:52

So we're gonna wrap up. And I'd just like to ask both of you to talk to other people in the province, uh, in smaller towns, situations like yours, maybe without a multi-use path. Um what's your what's your sort of general advice, uh overall uh suggestions to them to make this possible in their lives? Brendan.

Brendan Ladner: 31:18

You gotta start doing it. That's the biggest thing. Because the critical mass, the more people that do it, the more people will see that they do it, the more people doing it, the safer it gets. So if you have an e-bike, you have the trailer, you've got all the right gear gear, you've got, you know, not just one set, but probably a second set as well. So that if you come home soaking wet, but you need to go out again in an hour or two, your stuff isn't dry, you've got a second set. It only takes 45 seconds to take all of your wet stuff off and be in your home or office clothes, right? But you've got to start doing it, and then um as a part of that, you're going to be seen doing it, and that will inspire others because we have had other parents in Whistler come to us and say, We've seen you do it every day all winter, so we know it's possible. Like, what do we gotta do? And we are constantly coaching other people in what to do, but we accept coaching as well. We bumped into a woman last winter, she had studded tires on the bike we model we have with these obscure tire size. So we had to ask her, hey, how do you do this? What we're you know, what size? Oh, well, this version of the bike, you have to take the fender off if you want studded tires. This the version you have, you don't need to. And it's those types of things. And then when you're doing it, you're given thumbs ups, you know, you're you're cheering people on, you're given those smiles, but we're all smiling at each other. When we do it, there are smiles shared, and that's the part of what makes it fun.

Peter Ladner: 32:55

Amanda, anything to add to that?

Amanda Ladner: 32:57

Yeah, I just want to add to the real commitment. Uh, all we're asking is that you commit to doing short-term trips. So that's going to the grocery store. Just commit to biking to the grocery store. If you can make that one change, I know everyone says I have to, I have to drive my car to work. Everybody says it. So, okay, you know, but just bike to the grocery store. Just bike your kids to school. That those two things, if you can commit to that, right? And I know a lot of parents drop their kids off before they, you know, drive to work. But really ask yourself, do I need to drive? Do I absolutely need to drive? And define for yourself, like what's what's the distance, right? Do I need to, do I need to drive right now? And if you can walk or bike, walk and bike.

Peter Ladner: 33:50

That's a great note to end on. Amanda Ladner, my daughter-in-law, Brendan, my son. Uh, thank you so much for uh sharing your insights. And uh, I'm sure you're somehow available. Uh, we can certainly make your contacts available through the BC Cycling Coalition if anybody wants to talk to you. And uh, we want to uh encourage anybody listening to join the BC Cycling Coalition so we can keep doing podcasts like this and help uh advance more quickly a safe cycling future for BC. Thanks for listening to Bike Six and supporting Safe Cycling at BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support. Please consider becoming a member. Adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling at BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richard Fuel, ICBC, Moto, and the Bicycle. Visit us at BCcycling.ca.

A trail should move more than bodies; it should move history into the open. We sit down with Elder Ruth Adams of Tsawwassen First Nation to explore the Great Blue Heron Way: a bold, Indigenous‑led active transportation route that reconnects communities along the Fraser River and the Salish Sea while reviving stories long pushed aside. 

Peter Ladner: 0:06

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Christania, also known as Elder Ruth Adams from the Tuasin Nation. She is the visionary behind Smukwahiel, the Great Blue Heron Way, which is a very ambitious First Nations-led project to reconnect First Nations communities and others along the Fraser River and around the Salish Sea. It's more than just a trail, it's a journey through history, culture, and nature. So here to tell us about it and what's happened with it, what's going to happen with it. Elder Ruth Adams, welcome.

Elder Ruth Adams: 1:04

Thank you very much. I'm very honored to be here to speak about Suwasim First Nation and the Smoq Coal. This is about our history, our culture, and everything that we lost under the Indian Act. So we no longer live under the Indian Act anymore. We had our treaty in 2009, and where our chief Kim Baird said, we are open for business. So I thought, oh, that is great. Now we can talk about our history. So that was the part that I thought was really important was to be able to visit other First Nations the way we did before settlers came in to try and tell us what to do. What got me to starting this out and how that started is for our treaty. I am Carol Vignali went to Victoria to listen to our chief as she was doing the treaty, and went went, uh came upon the galloping goose, and I asked them what First Nations are in this, and they said zero. And I told them, oh, that's all right. She can come on the Great Blue Heron Way.

Peter Ladner: 2:29

When you were on the Galloping Goose and you said we want to do the Great Blue Heron Way, did you just come up with that name and that thought at that time, or had you thought about it earlier? And why Great Blue Heron?

Elder Ruth Adams: 2:42

Oh, because we have the rookery. And so I came up with the Great Blue Heron Way because what I told our youth, I said, that's our way of life. It's all about our way of life on our land and water. So that that is what that great blue heron meant because that was part of us and we are part of nature. In the old days, cowboys and Indians would say, Oh, they're so wild. Yes, we are wild, because we belong in the nature. We knew all about the land and the water and everything living with us.

Peter Ladner: 3:30

I understand that one of the first initiatives that somebody undertook or looked at was a way to cross Highway 17, which many people know as the road out to the Tuason Ferry Terminal. And you that separated your community. What was going on there and what has happened there?

Elder Ruth Adams: 3:50

Oh, because the highway going to the ferry um cut us in half. It took away our gathering place, which is there where the Great Blue Heron Way rookery is. That was our gathering place. It was a sacred place, and our our people would go out into the flats to gather crabs. And there were so many crabs that we we would take them back, and we would all eat crabs together at this gathering place, and that's where we've um put some of our history, all of all of our things along that rookery going into the water. And and and nobody cared what what they did. They went through where our longhouse was, and our little Catholic church was there, because my grandmother and grandfather had a little stove in there, wood stove, and they would uh my grandfather would do the stove and my grandma would would uh bring flowers and clean the church. So it went right between those. The road went right between those, those things, with without um, without anyone ever asking, do do we want that or do we need this? What are we going to do with it?

Peter Ladner: 5:11

Did you achieve the crossing of Highway 17? How do your people cross it now?

Elder Ruth Adams: 5:16

Uh now thank you for asking that because they put a traffic light there to cross over to for us to go over to the our little gas station that we have there. But that's a long ways to where we used to walk along the beach to get to that gathering place. So uh so our people, and we've already had an accident where our young one has not been able to marry, not to have children, because he got hit on that highway. So it's about the safety, and that crossing does not get us to the beach where we used to walk along the beach to get there. So that's the part that was broken to us. So that is where this bridge will, land bridge will go over for our pedestrians to be able to walk over there to the other side where we gather and where we have our own little park there now, too.

Peter Ladner: 6:20

Well, it sounds like your project is is a very bold and important attempt to remedy some of those breaks and disconnects and and harms that have been done. Um could you just imagine it's all done in your mind, and you've talked about the cultural healing and and knowledge that is involved, but what is it, what is it actually going to look like on the ground in your mind?

Elder Ruth Adams: 6:48

Oh, it it will it will look at how we how we can uh how we can honor what we have right now, that we can go along our boardwalk and get out to the dike, which is the Great Blue Heron Way. You can stand there and you can turn around and look at our whole nation in a circle, and then you turn around and you look at what do we have today? A port and a ferry. So um I'm I'm what I want the children to see, the youth to see, is that they can walk around our nation and do the history, have our artwork, have our signage, and even go high-tech and and have a little a little thing that you could pick on your phone and look at the thing and be able to hear us talk about what this piece of land means to us and what did we do. And and and just to just to have the tours for my great blue heron way for all of the friends in Delta, especially, who want to come to visit us to be able to hear the real history. Because I have lots of friends out there that mean a lot to me, and they want to know about us, and I will I I want to have them around us and have them be safe. So this is what the Great Blue Heron Way is. It's about our ancestors, but it's about me today, letting people know that they should get to know us and what we have done for British Columbia and Canada. I need them to know the real history, and I'm glad the governments didn't do it because they would have gotten it wrong. So we're telling our stories, we're telling our history because it's your history.

Peter Ladner: 8:52

Well, uh speaking of my history, I feel compelled to mention that that the town of Ladner was named after my great-grandfather, so I have a personal connection with that land, and I have been lucky enough to take the trip on my bicycle along the section that's built now, along the dike and that boardwalk. And uh it's very beautiful. And I would recommend people to look at the video, which will put a connection to it in our show notes, where you've done a video which basically is a representation of what you just described, standing in that place and looking all around. Yes. And we talked about Highway 17 going out to the ferry, but there's also, as you mentioned, the port, the coal port, which has a railway that that cuts that. Yes. Um, what are your thoughts about getting over through past that railway, which is now quite a bit of a detour?

Elder Ruth Adams: 9:44

Oh, it is, thank you very much, because it is the other part. It is the other part of what I'm working on along with the Suwasan Delta bicycle hub, is that that this is a big connection to Ladner. If if we could go over there in a safe way, go over to the other side, and even go along that dike right into Ladner, and Ladner can come over to us in a safe way. So that means a lot. We would love to have that crossing, a safe crossing, because it's just beautiful to go along there and it could be fixed in a in a safer way. And I'm going to say this, and and this is always all those little gossipy things that people say, oh no, the drunk people are gonna go and party down there. No, they'll have to they'll have to bicycle or walk. And if you're drunk, are you gonna bicycle or walk? I don't think so. So, no, we're we're making this for people who want to enjoy the nature, walking or biking. So, so just a I I know how people think and talk. So just for those people.

Peter Ladner: 11:05

That's uh a benefit of active transportation that we have not brought up before on this podcast. It discourages um crazy partying because you have to walk or cycle to get there. So looking at the at the municipal support for this, how how are they looking at this? I guess this is the municipality of Delta for this particular section. And uh have they offered support and what do they want to get out of it?

Elder Ruth Adams: 11:37

Well, I I think they want a nice place to bicycle in the first place that that that they would want to go along that dike, and when they get to the end of that dike, where are they going to go? They're going to come to Swasham First Nation.

Peter Ladner: 11:54

Elder Ruth, when you think about the other attracting and working with these other partners, um do you have access as Tuas and First Nation to funding that is not available to, say, the municipality of Delta that could make this project happen faster or better?

Elder Ruth Adams: 12:16

Well, we now have things that settlers had forever in their lives. We we can look into the grants now. And so there are some grants that are for First Nations. Finally.

Peter Ladner: 12:32

Uh there's a project to expand the port, as I don't have to tell you. Yeah. Uh and is it is it have you spoken to them or is it possible that they could be asked or expected to contribute to this as a give back to the community for what they're doing, which is let's just say somewhat harmful in some ways?

Elder Ruth Adams: 12:52

Well, it it's like everything else, that it's not just one big organization, the port. Uh, we did work with one part of it, and they were they were happy to do that because what you're looking at is artwork and signage, and who and the heck is Delta, and who and the heck is TFN.

Peter Ladner: 13:19

You've talked about connecting First Nations beyond just your Troisen First Nation. W what are who are some of the other First Nations that you either have involved or would look forward to getting involved in this?

Elder Ruth Adams: 13:34

Well, you have to understand that we don't do 10 or 100 nations all put together like the governments want one statement to fit all of the nations, one treaty to fit all of the nations. No, you can't do that. That is not us. So I go one by one to each nation to let them know what is happening, and all I am doing there is saying, Oh, I'm going across your traditional territory, and I want to thank you and acknowledge you for letting me pass into your traditional territory, and that is all that I will do. I will not tell that First Nation what to do, because that is their way of life, and if they want to do something, that is up to them, and if they don't want to do something, that is up to them. So that that is what this is about. Looking after everyone.

Peter Ladner: 14:45

That's the that's the key that I I hear from you, Elder Ruth, is looking after everyone. It seems that your First Nation, in spite of its um need to educate the settlers, is also open to people from anywhere to come through this route and experience your land, your territory, and the beauty that you see around you. I know that you've engaged younger people in your community to take this on and pick it up. And as you say, this is this is your handoff really to them. How are they embracing it and what do they think about it?

Elder Ruth Adams: 15:23

Well, they're excellent because when we started our treaty, it was youth that wanted the boardwalk along with me, and and the person that was doing our, and I have to mention his name because uh I told him the story of the Great Blue Heron Way, and he made the roads and everything with that name on it. So that was a youth, and now they're all grown up. I'm into the third generation of youth, and they wanted that boardwalk, and now the next youth wanted the the the pass over the highway. And and so that that is a big one. So that will be this generation, and probably the next generation will be the ones that say we want that overpass over the railroad track.

Peter Ladner: 16:24

So this is a multi-generational project. Yes, it is. Uh, there's something else called Experience the Fraser, which I've heard about, which is another some other kind of active transportation multi-use pathway route. Uh are you part of that? Is that uh overlapping with what you're doing or something different?

Elder Ruth Adams: 16:46

No, it isn't. And and why I'm involved in all of this, I'll let you know my little story. My children used to ask, why do you need to know everything? I said, because I don't want to fall in a hole along the path. I need to know there's a big hole there, or I need to know something's gonna whip me in the face, a big tree or whatever. So that is my life, knowing everything. Yes, I I have heard about the experience of Fraser, and what do I think? I think this, you're not gonna know the experience of the Fraser until you know the experience of all the First Nations along the Frasier River. So they've left out that part. So of course I'm gonna be talking about, and I do talk everywhere and anytime anyone asks me. Oh, and that is my job now. Hey, I do, I do get I do get honorarians for opening up meetings and for saying the prayer and the recognition, and that's another big thing. There's these people that say, oh, why do we have to do recognition every time? Because every time you come up to a person, that's another part of your life. You do not forget, just like you say, hello, how are you? Well, the recognition is what we that's our culture, that's our heritage. We always ask. The canoes coming in, they had to ask if if they could come in. So that is why every time you recognize the First Nation, just think of it this way: when you do that, then you're recognizing your history, not just the First Nation history, but it's your history, the real history. You're that's what you are getting when you recognize the traditional territories.

Peter Ladner: 18:46

Well, I first met you at the Active Transportation Summit in New Westminster in 2024, where you did the recognition, the acknowledgement, and the prayer and describe this project. And it was a pretty uh inspiring moment there. And uh I I'm inspired as well to hear you now. And I didn't fully understand how much of the historical part of this route was was built into it. And we tend to, at least on this podcast, look at the way bicyclists can move around and not really pay enough attention to the history of the land they're moving through and the people who were there and their involvement in these routes. So I think you're doing a a great service to all of us to pursue this and and keep this framework in our minds as we try to enable more choices for moving around and also build in more ways to understand our history. So thank you very much for doing this.

Elder Ruth Adams: 19:49

Oh, I just have to say to you, thank you, because one of my children just, oh, there is a there is a Ladner, there is a person Ladner, and I said, Yes, there is. So for you, Peter, I'm thankful to meet you, and I think we need to put that history out of um how your family came on this land and how it happened. Same, same as Sawason and Sean Hodgins, and how did they get that name? So all of that is history, and right now I just have to say, thank you, Chief Laura Cassidy. You're our hero. The same as talking to Peter Ladner of Ladner, BC. Laura Cassidy, your chief Laura Cassidy of Sawathan, the host nation between Cowchan and Lummy tribe in Washington. So you are the chief of this host nation. So I just thought I put that in because she is.

Peter Ladner: 22:01

I really appreciate your work, and we will be watching this very closely.

Elder Ruth Adams: 22:05

Thank you very much. It's been an honor, Mr. Ladner.

Peter Ladner: 22:10

Thank you. Call me Peter.

Elder Ruth Adams: 22:11

Yes, Peter.

Peter Ladner: 22:21

You've been listening to Bike Since, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca.

Two beloved B.C. fondos disappeared this year — and not because riders lost interest. We sit down with veteran organizer and Panache Cycling Sports CEO Jon Watkin to unpack the real reasons: traffic control costs spiraling to double-time rates, six-hour minimums, and newly required engineered traffic plans that turn a single intersection into a budget breaker. John explains where safety policy helps, where it overreaches, and how a one-size-fits-all approach can sink small, community-driven rides.

From there, we pivot to what’s thriving: gravel. John lays out why gravel cycling has become the most welcoming doorway into the sport, and how municipalities and tourism boards, eager to rebuild after the pandemic, are partnering to bring high-quality events to Vancouver Island and beyond.

Peter: 0:06

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is John Watkin, the CEO of Panache Cycling Sport, and we're going to talk about what's with the Fondo cancellations and why is it so hard to put on bike events these days. But before I do, I want to share a message from a listener who heard our podcast with the RCMP Media Relations Officer about enforcement of the safe passing distance. Dan Park from Bowen Island writes, I've been cycling for many, many years and from time to time speak with the police about speeding traffic. They are invariably sympathetic, but they say they just don't have the resources to be out all the time to monitor traffic. But ICBC has a neighborhood speed watch program that is run in conjunction with the RCMP. The local RCMP works with interested neighborhood volunteers who are concerned about speeding in their neighborhoods and communities and trains people to use radar guns. Volunteers are not able to issue tickets, but they can forward identifying info to the police who will send warning letters. Repeat offenders or serious speeders will likely receive a call or visit from the police. We are just getting it up and running here on Bowen Island. If you'd like to get this up and running in your community, we will post a link to the program in the show notes. So back to my guest today, John Watkins has been a commuter, a cyclist, a competitor, a volunteer, manager, and event director. He's the co-founder of the Wheelhouse Cycling Society. Maybe you'll tell us what that is. And has served on the Cycling BC board for many years. He's a former elite racer in Europe and at the highest amateur level here in Canada until 2001. Welcome, John.

Jon: 2:15

Thanks for having me, Peter. I really appreciate it.

Peter: 2:18

So just to help flesh out the introduction and give listeners a better idea of what you do, could you describe some of the events that you've founded or are currently involved with and also your most current upcoming event?

Jon: 2:33

Sure. Yeah, actually, um I cut my cloth with the uh Bastion Square Grand Prix, which has been a mainstay cycling event in Victoria since 1994. It was a legacy event from uh the Commonwealth Games. And so I inherited that in 2001. And uh you could call it Trial by Fire. Uh so I ran that event for a number of years and then pivoted to moving the venue from Bastion Square to the BC legislature, which uh continues on to this very day. Uh, if your listeners are aware of what's what criterium racing, they should be Googling the uh uh Gas Town Grand Prix. Uh there's the Robert Cameron Lost Cycling Series. So it's very spectator friendly. And uh all this time I was doing it uh while I had a new family and working a full-time job, uh, but I've been able to learn the craft. And uh just after the pandemic, I decided to go full-time and I started a new company called Panache Cycling Sports. And um I'm now doing uh anywhere from seven to nine events per year, and we've uh evolved to hosting major uh national championship events. And uh in the last uh five years, we've hosted two national cyclocross championships. And uh this summer, this past summer, we hosted the Canadian Mountain Bike Championships, and then next year we're uh looking forward to hosting the Canadian Gravel Championships and uh and then continuing our second year of hosting the mountain bike championships. So it's it's been fun and uh doing it full time has been interesting, but uh yeah, I'm just enjoying it. You could call this semi-retirement.

Peter: 4:13

What did you do before?

Jon: 4:14

I was primarily in the tech industry. I was working for a major uh Fortune 500 company uh in in sales, and then I pivoted to quality management systems and I became a trained uh quality systems auditor and uh did that for 10 years. And then I I was uh VP of business development for a product design firm uh in Victoria. So learned a lot of good things from the tech industry and uh but no pun intended, it just didn't turn my crank.

Peter: 4:46

Well, now that your crank is turning, well, first of all, you have you were gonna tell me about an upcoming event.

Jon: 4:52

Well, yeah, we've got um we're we're actually about to launch the 2026 uh BC Gravel Series, um, and we're gonna be adding uh Port Alberni uh into the mix. So we're looking at four gravel events for 2026. So that's uh Campbell River in April, Port Alberni in May, uh in the Cowitan Valley. Uh uh that'll be the Canadian Gravel Championships, and then in September will be the uh the last event, which is in Cumberland. Um and then we are hosting the BC Cyclocross Championships actually uh in two weeks. So if we're trying to look at an event that's in our community in Victoria coming really soon, uh that'll be at Layritz Park in Saanich on November the 9th.

Peter: 5:36

Well, I wanted to back down from those very impressive championship level events and have a quick look at what's going on with the fondos, because we've seen the cancellation of two big fondos in BC this year, the Victoria one and the Penticton one. And a fondo, for people who aren't familiar with one, is a mass participation long-distance bike ride, sort of like a marathon for cyclists, where there's a mass start and they're usually 80 to 160 kilometers. They're timed, but they're not races necessarily, although many of us tend to race when we go in them. They have support stops with stations with food and drinks and mechanical help, and a festival atmosphere, and they generate usually a lot of spectators. They're very fun events, and anyone who's been in one usually really loves the experience. But why are these fondos being canceled? And is that part of a larger trend of cancellation of bike events for reasons that you're about to explain to us?

Jon: 6:40

Um, I would say the there's commonalities in terms of why these events were canceled, and fundamentally it was due to uh rising costs of traffic control, and it became so high to the extent that it does not make the uh the events commercially viable, whether they're a for-profit or a nonprofit organization. So it's a common trend across the board, I would think. I don't think it's isolated. I think this is maybe a bit of a canary in a coal mined uh situation with these two events. But speaking to other fellow event organizers, I mean, I think they're seeing the same thing where the costs are rising. I think there's some reassessment of risk management from different municipalities in terms of what they perceive is appropriate risk mitigation. But the fundamental costs of traffic control are the real reasons. And um, you know, you can only imagine traffic control uh uh costs are driven by the rising developments. And if you look around Victoria, there's construction everywhere, so there must be absolutely high demand for traffic control services. So a lot of these traffic control companies can more or less charge whatever they want. And it's the small community events that I think end up suffering the most because um they're, you know, we're running on much smaller budgets.

Peter: 8:04

Well, granted that there was a fatality in the Penticton Fondo, and I think there was a problem something similar in Victoria occurred at some point. Um are these concerns justified? Are are the municipalities and regional districts overreacting to the risks?

Jon: 8:20

Do you think um well each instance needs to be evaluated on its own sort of uh issues? Um as far as the Victoria one, um, you know, the uh the traffic control plan uh had been signed and approved by both the police and the district, and everything looked good. And even to the extent that um from what's been released from the police report, there was no fault ascribed to the trap, the volunteer marshal or the driver. And it was just a tragic accident. Um with that being said, the decision to show no distinction between marshalling a small side cul-de-sac versus a major four-way intersection, that's where the issue is. And so in in our instances, when we work with municipalities, um there's a reasonable assumption of risk where if you have, if the cyclists already have the right of way and uh vehicles have to stop anyway, having a marshal there is reasonable to allow the driver of the vehicle to take the extra time to make sure that there are no cyclists passing by before they're able to proceed. However, having a certified traffic controller would not necessarily change the outcome of the situation, but it would certainly drive the cost significantly. If you can imagine a certified traffic controller on a Sunday, they they're they're they charge double time. And typical traffic control companies require a minimum six hours of billing. So if you're running a small event and you just need a single person for just an hour, it doesn't matter. You're paying for six hours at double rates.

Peter: 10:02

What what is that amount, roughly?

Jon: 10:04

It can go anywhere from $130 to $180 an hour. Yeah. So in case of the triple shot cross-fondo, my understanding is in past years they've run this event for many, many years with only seven certified traffic controllers. Um, and that uh and again, without any any issue. And now they're being asked to uh come up with 24. And this is a double time rate at a minimum, you know, four to six hours of time. So those costs just are astronomical. And I think the other new requirement is the requirement for an engineered traffic control plan. So when we've done uh events in the past, we would have a certified traffic control company create a traffic control plan. Um, and that would be sufficient to get permit approval from different municipalities. However, in this particular instance, it needs to be an engineered uh traffic control plan uh signed off by a civil engineer, and that could add more cost to the event. And I I can't I can't think of what a civil engineer costs or what their billable rate is.

Peter: 11:13

Does their contribution make a significant difference, do you think?

Jon: 11:17

We don't know. We we've never, I mean, I certainly have never had an engineer uh devise a traffic control plan. Um so I don't know to the extent of what else they would provide that uh a traffic control company uh would provide us anyway. I mean, the traffic control plans that I've seen are quite thorough. They specify positions and locations of people, the flow of traffic, the types of signage that's being used, um you know, all those things. Um so I can't think of anything else that the engineer would suggest to make it more safe.

Peter: 11:51

Could you talk a little bit about what the impact is on a community when it has a fondo? You're probably most familiar with the Victoria one. You've got thousands of riders coming in and their friends and family. Talk a little bit about the economic impact and the impact on just the popularity of cycling.

Jon: 12:09

These events, I mean, they draw so like hundreds of people from outside the area, from Victoria. They come over from the lower mainland, the interior of the Fraser Valley, uh, Kootenys. Um typically they spend one or two nights, they stay in hotels, they spend money at restaurants. So the economic impact on these events is huge. Um, if you look at an event like the Triple Shot Cross Fondo, it actually takes place during the shoulder months of the year in October, and that's when the hotels are at their lowest occupancy. So these events are critical to help the hospitality industry kind of maintain a bit of a flat line as it relates to their revenues and economic benefits. Um, and then you've got the local bike shops, travel to and from locations. So yeah, they're significant. And you know, if you were to speak to Tourism Victoria, I think they would have some very poignant things to say about the cancellation of these events because it really affects their mandate, which is to bolster tourism and sport tourism in the region.

Peter: 13:15

Tell me about the fundraising events, the cops for cancer and the and the various events where a lot of amateur cyclists uh polish up their bikes and head out for fundraisers. Are they still going strong? Are they having problems?

Jon: 13:29

Uh I'm not aware of any issues with like uh like the Tour de Rock Cops for Cancer. Obviously, they have the benefit of uh having police services and support. And you know, if you have a police uh escort of your bike ride, I mean that's that's huge. Um it's very rare to ever get the police involved with any cycling event for that matter. But I I know the the the there's a local grassroots cycling group called the Victoria Cycling League, and they've been faced with cancellation of their own events because they're trying to basically start bike racing development at the most fundamental level, which is getting young kids and young adults into bike racing. So we've seen them affected by by these changes. So just as a foot in the door getting people into learning the sport of cycling, um, we're seeing that um, you know, for the smallest uh, you know, grassroots events.

Peter: 14:23

You mentioned that Tourism Victoria is probably unhappy with the cancellation of the Fondo. You also mentioned to me earlier that you've been approached by municipalities who really want these events to come to their communities. And tell me a bit about that and then what they have to learn and do to make that happen.

Jon: 14:42

Yeah, I mean, up until I think it was post-pandemic, um, we've I've had a number of municipalities reach out to me, particularly uh City of Campbell River, and um we've developed strong partnerships with the Calaghan Valley Regional District and Tourism to Naimo. And they they see uh these types of events as being fundamental to help to uh businesses recover from the the losses during the pandemic. So before the pandemic, it was the opposite. It was us begging and pleading the municipalities and cities to host these events, and then for us having to jump through a lot of hoops to get the permits. So it was interesting to have a situation where municipalities coming to us because they they're trying to revitalize their own economies and they see these events as as being uh very complementary to what is what is already there. If you look at Vancouver Island, especially, there's hundreds of kilometers of trails and gravel roads. So if you're a a gravel or mountain bike enthusiast, it's a it's a playground. And so uh inviting people to come to the island and to take advantage of this this outdoor stadium that we have, um, they they they see the the big picture here. And so yeah, we've we've we've worked with these partnerships and most recently uh Port Alberni, um, they want an event on their doorstep, so we're working with them to make that happen.

Peter: 16:06

You talked about uh some gravel events. What's a gravel event? Is that a race? What if I were just taking up gravel biking, could I go in there and enjoy myself, or do I have to be sponsored and very fast?

Jon: 16:19

Uh not at all. Gravel cycling is probably the most uh inclusive and accessible cycling discipline in North America right now.

Peter: 16:30

Describe to me what you mean by gravel cycling.

Jon: 16:33

It's um think of uh roads that take you away from the hustle and bustle of the city, yeah, whether it's through crown land, and they just take you through these remote areas where you're just away from the city and you're you're essentially in the middle of nowhere. The the forestry industry is probably responsible for most of the gravel roads that we're seeing uh on Vancouver Island and the lower mainland. Uh, love or hate the logging industry, it's really made uh people appreciate the the wilderness and the outdoors, and especially now that people are getting so frightened about riding their bikes on paved roads. And in spite of the fact that there's all these uh separated bike lanes, um I'm noticing more and more people are scared to ride their bikes around the city because it's just too congested, it's too busy. I'm seeing more and more motorists being distracted and instances of fellow cyclists being hit or almost hit by distracted motorists. So it's becoming a more fundamental problem. But gravel just seems to invite people to like get away from downtown, enjoy your bike on the outdoors, ride on the galloping goose. Uh, I would I would consider the galloping goose as gravel riding. And um, and if you go into a bike shop, you'll see there's more offerings of gravel bikes to buy than there ever was before.

Peter: 17:51

And a gravel bike is a regular road bike with wider tires?

Jon: 17:56

Yeah, from first appearances, a gravel bike looks like a road bike. You know, it's got the the drop handlebars, but the the bikes themselves are configured so you can accommodate a tire width of about you know almost two inches. But they're they're much lighter than a mountain bike. They typically don't come with with suspension, although I think that's starting to change. There's you have to understand here the bicycle industry is is constantly trying to reinvent itself. So they'll they'll come up with a new category that's it's not a mountain bike, it's not a road bike, it's kind of a merge of of the two together.

Peter: 18:32

So people are coming to these gravel events. You don't have to be a fancy racer, you can be just a person who likes to get out in the backwoods.

Jon: 18:38

That's right.

Peter: 18:39

And that sounds very appealing. Yeah. Um are you are they getting a lot of uptake?

Jon: 18:44

Absolutely. I mean, you know, our event, we we kind of there there, we have two arms in terms of what we try to do. We want to be a sport tourism event, but we also want to be an eco-tourism event. We want people to feel that they can go to our event and not having to be too concerned about their finish time. And and we also try to select routes that bring people to the most beautiful, most scenic parts of Vancouver Island. And we have three distances. You can be just a beginner-level cyclist, and typically that's about 30 to 40 kilometers. Intermediate is about 70 kilometers. And if you're a hardcore enthusiast, you're looking at about 110 to 120 kilometers of riding. So there's something for everybody, and we even have a category for e-bikes. So if you I think I've got a couple of uh participants that are in their mid-late 70s and they have an e-bike and they're able to tackle those 20% grades without any problem.

Peter: 19:36

Uh just to wrap up, I'd just like to look at what you do in the context of cycle tourism, because uh when I think of cycle tourism, I think of a group of people who decide they're going to do the Kettle Valley Railway or something. But you also attract tourists. And do you work with other cycle tourism promoters, tour guides, what hotels, uh tourism agencies, whatever, to make that happen? And what do you think we need to be do to do to make more tourists come and cycle at BC?

Jon: 20:07

Yeah, I mean, we work with Tourism Victoria, Tourism Couch, and Tourism Nanaimo, Campbell River, Port Alberni. Uh, there's an organization called 4VI, which is sort of like a consolidated group that supports uh tourism on Vancouver Island. I haven't worked directly with any tourism offices or agencies outside of Vancouver Island, but I think the uh transportation and getting uh to and from the area is a big one. I I can only speak to being on Vancouver Island. Like if the ferries, BC ferries costs keep increasing, I think we're gonna start seeing fewer and fewer people that are gonna be able to come to Vancouver Island. We would want to encourage people to ride their bike to our events instead of driving. So that would kind of make it so that it makes it more easy for people to get to the island. But beyond that, I think it's just more of like a messaging uh thing. You know, people don't realize how beautiful uh the British Columbia is, how beautiful Vancouver Island is, and there's no better way to enjoy those, the the beauty of the outdoors than on a bicycle. And one thing I'd like to add too, like when we partner with these municipalities, we collect uh tens of gigabytes of video and and professional photography, and we share that with all uh our municipal partners so that they can then use this professionally uh produced video and photography and then use that to promote their own respective regions, right? So we we try to take an active role to making that happen.

Peter: 21:34

Terrific. Well, one day we were we're gonna get the BC Ferries on this podcast and talk to them about how they can be more cycling friendly. But until then, is there anything else you would like to add before we wrap this up?

Jon: 21:46

Yeah, uh stay tuned for the 2026 BC Gravel Series uh coming to Vancouver Island starting in April of next year. And um, if you're from Vancouver Island and you wanna um, if you don't want, if you want to ride, but you also want to support our events or even volunteer, I mean, we're always looking for people to help us out in different ways too. So uh if you visit bcgravelseries.com, uh you can sign up. We'd love to have you on board.

Peter: 22:14

Thanks, Jonathan. Uh, I think if I wanted to come next April, I should start making my ferry reservations right now, right?

Jon: 22:21

Uh unless, unless, yeah, I mean, unless if you're just a walk-on, you should be fine.

Peter: 22:25

Yeah, right. Thanks so much for telling us all these stories and filling us in on this whole aspect of cycling, which we haven't really covered on this podcast before, which is clearly a major part of how people cycle in our communities. And uh congratulations on your role in making it happen and best of luck for getting these fondos back in gear, as they say, and surmounting some of these, sometimes it seems ridiculous, requirements for very expensive safety measures. But all the best with that. Thanks, John.

Jon: 22:57

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Peter: 23:03

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca

Learn more about Jon's races at www.panachecyclingsports.com

Sign up for the BC Gravel Series 2026! https://www.bcgravelseries.com

'Slow down cars and save lives' sounds obvious, but how do we actually make that work on the ground? Where does funding for speed enforcement come from, and when fines are charged, where does the money actually land? New Westminster Mayor Patrick Johnstone debunks the myth of the speed-trap 'cash cow' and takes a clear-eyed look at BC’s pause on active transportation funding, the politics of 30 km/h residential limits, and why automated speed enforcement could be the fastest way to real safety gains.

Peter Ladner: 0:06

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is our first repeat guest on this podcast, Newestminster Mayor Patrick Johnstone. And we're bringing him back because he's that good and he's sometimes outspoken on topics that we would like to dwell on today, such as the BC government pausing active transportation grants, bike lash locally and around the world, the politics of getting support for active transportation, automated speed enforcement, and the old 30 kilometer per hour default residential speed limit. Welcome, Patrick.

Patrick Johnstone: 1:06

Thank you. Good to see you this morning, Peter.

Peter Ladner: 1:09

I'm going to start you with our standard question. Describe your last bike ride.

Patrick Johnstone: 1:15

My last bike ride was I got a little bit of time away on uh on the holiday Monday. Um, and I got a nice, I got about uh 70K in. I got to go for a road bike ride around Richmond and around uh Stanley Park and back to New West. It was a nice day. It was a nice sunny day. It was a beautiful warm day, and there were so many people outside enjoying that sort of nice fall weather in in Greater Vancouver.

Peter Ladner: 1:38

Can you just push out your front door and off you go? Do you have to drive to someplace to start your ride?

Patrick Johnstone: 1:43

No, I uh the wonderful part about riding a bike in New Westminster is every bike ride starts with a hill climb and every bike ride ends with a hill climb. It's a magic thing about our city.

Peter Ladner: 1:52

I'm glad you're up to it. Now, could you just tell us? Let's start with the active transportation grants. This is a BC government program. It's been going for a number of years, and it's oversubscribed by municipalities. Last year they gave out$24 million. Municipalities have been told that this year there will be no grants. Whether that's a pause or a cancellation, um, who knows? But could you tell us, the listeners, what the impact of those grants has been have been in your community?

Patrick Johnstone: 2:25

Uh the pause of the grant program is a huge disappointment and it's a big turnaround from just uh just two years ago when we were kind of excited because they were announcing they were expanding that grant program. Um I think the average over the last 10 or 15, 10 or 12 years of the program has been about 7 million a year. They announced, I think, a year and a half ago, that it was going to be up to about$20 million a year, maybe$24 million a year. It was really exciting. And to find out they're pausing that right now is really disappointing. In New Westminster, we have received those grants for a couple of projects. Um, the act, the Agnes Street Greenway is a project that we've built using, I think we only got about a half a million dollars for that project. But again, it's really good baseline funding to build an active transportation route in our downtown. And then we got another half million dollars just recently in the most recent cohort for a project in our Queensboro neighborhood to improve both pedestrian and cycling uh safety in the Queensboro neighborhood, connecting a new residential neighborhood with sort of the business and commercial area that's adjacent to it. Um but I don't think it's necessarily New Westminster's the best example. Um I, you know, we appreciate those grants and they really help us. They provide some baseline funding for some for some active transportation. But the number of small communities, uh, the number of First Nations, the number of organizations that just don't have uh the ability to fund active transportation in a meaningful way, the the Castlegarders and the Chetwins and the and the towns like that, uh where it can make a huge difference to get a half million dollars from provincial government to support uh an active transportation plan. Um, the planning part or the building of a new route, it's it's it's just a huge boost to small communities, especially. So um to hear that going the wrong direction is a real disappointment.

Peter Ladner: 4:12

And what, if anything, have you done about it or anybody that you know has done about it uh as far as lobbying, pushing back, um, communicating with ministers?

Patrick Johnstone: 4:23

Yeah, I know active transportation community is actually pushing back really strongly. The cycling coalition has been doing that, hub has been doing it. Um, I have reached out to our members, our our members of the legislature in New Westminster. Um, you know, there was a lot of conversation at the recent UBCM meeting around this with my cohort, with the folks around the around the province who care about active transportation. I mean, we it was we're only a little more than a year from the last from the active transportation summit, where we stood up in front of the province and said, look, this is a really great program. It needs to be funded more. It's not, it's such a small amount of money when it comes to the the Ministry of Transportation's capital budget. The Ministry of Transportation of Transportation's capital budget is in the billions every year.$20 million is not enough to build a single freeway on-ramp right now in act in transportation funding. It might seem like a lot of money uh to small communities, but compared to the budget that is spent on freeways and highways and overpasses and things like that in the Ministry of Transportation's budget, this is a little tiny amount of money, and it's really meaningful to small communities.

Peter Ladner: 5:36

We calculated that it was less than 1% of their capital budget. Is this something that in your community you bring money to the table as well, or do you depend entirely on the province?

Patrick Johnstone: 5:46

Oh, this is absolutely what, yeah. This is like I don't think many projects are 100% funded by this. This is where your matching funds come from. We also have access to some funds from Translink to do sort of last kilometer active transportation to connections to get people uh to SkyTrain stations and to bus stops. And so municipalities are leveraging all of those. But the thing about the active transportation grant is it is it is what it did provide some really secure baseline funding that allowed you to sort of plan out a couple of years in advance and plan out where you're gonna get matching funds. We're currently halfway through building an active transportation network plan out in New Westminster. Our goal is to build active transportation connections to within 400 meters of everyone's home and to all the major destinations in the city. And it's gonna take us years. It's gonna take us five years to build this out. But having knowing that in year two, in year three, and in year four, we'll be able to apply for a little bit of grant funding for this helps us put it in our capital plan. And um again, I can't imagine how a small community, I can't imagine how a city that has Fort or Prince in its name is going to uh is going to make up for that loss.

Peter Ladner: 6:56

You mentioned the UBCM, the Union of BC municipalities recently, as we're recording, had a conference in Victoria. There was a motion that was proposed at that conference to enable municipalities to do a blanket default speed limit of 30 kilometers per hour on any road without a center line, and it did not make it to the to the floor because I gather there was a lot of competition for resolutions needing decisions. Uh, what is your experience with trying to create 30 kilometer speed limits in your city without the power to just decree that all roads by default in your municipality at least are limited to 30 Ks when they don't have a center line?

Patrick Johnstone: 7:45

Well, we're working on it. We're working on 30 kilometers an hour in our community. Um, we have expanded the hours around school zones and the areas around school zones where 30 kilometers an hour is the default or is the speed limit. We have also added 30 kilometers an hour to some of our commercial areas and some other, you know, sort of higher trafficked residential areas in the community. Um it sort of came out of a sort of a safer streets and green streets program that we sort of developed through COVID as people were out and walking more and realizing that we could actually create better spaces for people walking through COVID. But it's really challenging for a municipality. It's challenging for municipality to put a 30 kilometer hour speed limit sign on every block of every street because uh the police would argue that in order to enforce it, it has to be obvious to everyone on that street and the signage implications and the cost implications and the visual distraction implications of having to do signage like that on every block and every street is limits its effectiveness in a community. So having default 30 kilometers an hour in municipalities is something we have been discussing with the province for years now. Um there were it went fairly far about 10 years ago. There were some deeper discussions with the province, but it just never came to fruition for whatever reason. You have to ask the province why. Um but the current, there are current approaches, and I like this idea that I think it was Sanich who brought forward. It was the idea that if you don't have a center line on the street, then that's 30 kilometers an hour. If there's a center line, then 50 is the default. And I think the advantage, I mean, we don't want to have in the lower mainland, for example, or in Greater Victoria, with um, you don't want to have 21 or 13 municipalities all with different rules on the street. It's really hard to enforce, it's hard for drivers to understand what the rules are in their community. It's it's difficult to make these things stick unless it's a consistent thing across the province, or at least across the region. So um I thought that was a creative way to say, look, that's a clear visual clue. It already exists. Cities can decide to put center lines down or not to put center lines down. And if people are understand that that means 30 kilometers or it means 50 kilometers an hour, it's an easy way to get us towards a place where 30 kilometers an hour is the default in residential areas. And the data is clear that 30 kilometers an hour uh saves lives. Um, you know, this is not a novel idea. This isn't a radical idea. This happens in municipalities around North America, different jurisdictions. It does happen in across Europe, anywhere where a vision zero model for traffic safety has been introduced. 30 kilometers an hour seems to sit in the middle of it. They have, I mean, 20, it's 20 is plenty, is the is the saying they have in areas where miles where miles per hour is the measure they use. But um, and again, it's really clear that it saves lives and it does not reduce the throughput of vehicles, it does not create traffic hassles. Um, it it just makes sense. And I'm I'm frustrated the province is reluctant to just bring this in as quickly as possible.

Peter Ladner: 10:44

Let's talk for a minute about why that is. There seems to be a perception, again, going back to data. I have seen data that if people are asked, should there be a 30K zone in your neighborhood? The majority, I I want to say overwhelming majority say yes. And yet there's a perception, apparently, that this is somehow going to cause a backlash. And what is it about these measures that causes politicians to be so wary of bringing them in?

Patrick Johnstone: 11:14

Oh, carbrain? I mean, and it's um Is that a disease? Yeah, it's something. Um I think that you you the way you asked that question is interesting. It's like, yeah, you're right. Everybody wants 30 kilometers an hour on their street, but they also, I think a lot of people want to go 50 kilometers an hour on other people's streets. I think there is this is something about how we think about our relationship with automobiles. What is safe for us in our community is inconvenient for us when other communities want it. The only thing that people in New Westminster want is for everyone who's driving through New Westminster and trying to access freeways around New Westminster not to come through their neighborhood. And they want us to do that in a way that they can have easy and quick access to the freeways around our neighborhood. So that's that's a challenge we have. So 30 kilometer an hour, I think, is very much like that. We see that as being uh unnecessarily onerous in areas where we want to drive, whereas we see it as an obvious safety advantage in our own communities. And that's something that we have some education to do around, and some and people have to sort of understand the nuance of that.

Peter Ladner: 12:18

Well, they also the politicians have to get elected. And you're a politician, you have to get re-elected. You must be wary of the voters' opinions on these things, and yet you have been elected, you continue to do these things. I'm assuming that you have some kind of electoral support for this. Why would you get it and other politicians not?

Patrick Johnstone: 12:39

Um I think that the reality on the ground is different than what we read on Facebook. You know, I we as I talked about the active transportation network plan in New Westminster, this five-year plan to build out these bike routes, we introduced that before the last election intentionally. And, you know, I ran on an election with that in my platform in the middle of it. We got to get this built. And so when I am told now by people that, you know, we weren't consulted on this or that, you know, this, I'm not gonna vote for you because you supported this, you know, politicians have to be bold enough to say, well, actually, I ran on this, I said I was gonna do it, and I'd be untruthful to the people who voted for me if I don't move forward on this work. There's also um, it's not top-down, you know, to say that no, I said I'm gonna do it, I'm just doing it. There's a there's a place to say that I hear your concerns. Like, how are we gonna address your concerns while we do this? Uh, to say that I'm going to do something is uh is uh a promise we all make during elections, and quite often we move back on some of those promises and realize the detail of trying to implement those things. So we have a responsibility as elected officials to continue to talk to the community about things that we've promised we're gonna do while we're doing it, and to be truthful about um about um the ways we can adjust this in order to address some of the concerns that you have, and to be truthful about when we can't adjust it to address concerns that you're being that are being raised. Um, I don't like a bus stop in my near my home is um is not something I can address when I said like we need more bus stops. We need to build bus stops, we need to build sheltered bus stops in order to make transit more accessible. Um, you know, you have to, from all children, have to be bold enough to say that actually bus stops are a good thing. They they benefit society. And I'm sorry that it's in front of your home, that's the best place for it, but it's not in front of your home, it's in front of someone else's. We live in a society and you don't own the curb in front of your home. Uh, we live in a society and we have to share these resources as best we can. People never, I mean, we rarely talk about the cost of motordub, the cost of automobile-centric neighborhoods. The fact that if we don't fund active transportation, like I even even talking about the active transportation fund, we don't talk about the fact that, yeah, they're saving$20 million on not giving out this grants this year, but what about the$200 million they're spending to fix the 264th interchange, the one interchange? Like we don't talk about the cost of the alternatives because the alternative is the status quo. The alternative is automobiles dominating all our space, of 90% of our road space being used to move and store private automobiles. We never talk about the cost of that because that's status quo. That's just the way business is. And so politicians have to do a better job of talking about that in a way that isn't judgmental. I'm not judging you because you drive a car, you you drive a car because it fits your lifestyle. Um, but we also have to find a way that um to allow other people who have different lifestyles to be safe in our communities.

Peter Ladner: 15:34

So the when you when you and I talk about this and we have a big love-in on all these issues, it's it sounds so obvious and easy. And yet it may be my impression, but it seems that this term bike lash has boiled up, and we see people opposing mayors in different cities around the world pledging to be against bikes, and for some weird reason I don't understand, this has seen to be or turned into a partisan issue where the left, so-called, is for active transportation and bikes. Certainly we see this south of the border, and the right, so-called, is uh loyal to the cars at all costs. Why do you think this is a partisan issue? And what could we do to make it less partisan?

Patrick Johnstone: 16:18

I mean, municipal politics don't traditionally fall on that left-right spectrum in a way, because there are left progressive people who are very um concerned about density. You know, you know, like it, like there are issues around urbanism, around cities that don't fit on that spectrum cleanly. And I think this is one of them. Um, I think the difference is what I was saying earlier: status quo versus change. This is about change. It's about changing a little bit about how your streetscape looks, it changes how you move around in our city. Um, there's a, I mean, a running joke I often say is that the only thing worse than the way things are right now is any kind of change. And that's the reality we face every day in municipal government. Um, people are concerned when they see change in front of their home that they don't recognize or they didn't know it was coming, or they don't understand what the impact is going to be on their life two years down the road of this change. So um, and bike lash is part of that. Uh it's a response to a change and it's a response to uncertainty. I think the real dichotomy is between status quo and change. And as politicians, uh, we our job sometimes is to talk about the change people want to see actually, and to and to talk to people who don't are uncomfortable with change about what it actually means. These are very, in a case of uh of bike lanes or change in our infrastructure or our active transportation infrastructure, it is personal to people because it's right in front of their home. It's their neighborhood that's changing, and that makes people nervous. They don't know what that change looks like. Um, they've always been able to park in front of their house. Why can't I park in front of my house now? And um we have a job to explain to people about why we're making change and how this has impacted other communities. I mean, Vancouver has this excellent example of how a lot of the early bike clash was led by the business community who are really concerned about what it meant to put bike lanes downtown. And how once they were put in, it was a there was a turnaround. The downtown business community is one of the strongest supporters of the work that Vancouver did to make it more cycling city. So we can talk about those examples from around the world, but ultimately it's it's also taking the time to hear people's concerns about the change and try to understand what the root of those concerns are. Um and and sometimes you just need to be bold and say, you know, the community is asking me for this kind of change. And I can't say no to the community because of parochial concerns. I have to answer to 90,000 new Westminster people, not just the people on one street who are concerned about a change. That's why we have representative politics, I guess, in Canada. That's the system that we run under.

Peter Ladner: 19:02

One of the solid pieces of advice that I've heard and tried to live by is don't come to a politician as an advocate with a problem, bring them a solution. Going back to the cancellation of the AT funding from the Ministry of Transportation and Transit, they're definitely in a fiscal bind. As you've pointed out, it's a relatively small amount of money, but they have to start cutting back somewhere. One of the solutions that's been put forward is to suggest that they increase automated speed enforcement with red light cameras, speed cameras, and so on. We just did a podcast with the head of the RCMP who reminded us that one police officer on the street costs about$300,000 a year after salary, cars, back end, pensions, and all that are taken into account. For$300,000, you could buy a lot of speed cameras. Why are we not doing that? And using that revenue to fund AT improvements and pick up for the lost revenue that's been canceled. I understand you've uh got your eye on some cameras, Patrick.

Patrick Johnstone: 20:11

I might have been a little cheeky on Blue Sky suggesting that if uh if anyone knows how to ship a bunch of unused traffic cameras from Ontario to New Westminster, I'm happy to receive them and put them up here. Uh a little cheeky because I don't have the legal ability to put them up here, but we've been calling for the province to enhance their intersection speed camera program for years. This came to a bit of a head last year as we had two pedestrian deaths on McBride, a road in New Westminster that is a provincial highway that has a lot of people speeding beyond the 50-kilometer speed limit on it. Uh, and I'm frustrated by it. I'm I am afraid it's only going to get more dangerous as a road with when the new Petulo Bridge opens and more traffic is funneled at a higher speed along the Petulo Bridge. A ostensibly safer bridge and a safer route is going to make the street in New Westminster less safe as a result of it. I don't know. I think the public is very clearly in favor of automated camera enforcement in British Columbia. The polls are really clear about that. One of the claims I commonly hear in my community is that people just don't respect the rules of the road anymore. Um, I mean, we all see this from our viewpoint. I think a lot of drivers see it as the pedestrians and cyclists don't respect the rules of the road.

Peter Ladner: 21:23

Which is often the case.

Patrick Johnstone: 21:24

Which is the case, and and the pedestrians and cyclists see it as the cars who don't respect the rules of the road. I think they're all it's all true. I think that um the the question of potential harm of a pedestrian not following the rule of the road versus a vehicle not doing it is a bit different. But uh we I think there is a general sense that it's it's the Wild West out there right now on our roads. And I stand, I see the province um reducing the requirements for testing for new drivers. I see them moving through ICBC, saving money by creating a no-fault system, uh, which again takes some of the burden off of drivers to pay for the cost of road incidents, of road violence. So I see them going in a different direction than the direction I'd like to see them going, which is making our roads safer. I think that automated cameras make sense. I think that modern technology of automated cameras is very different than the photo radar uh debates that we had back in the 90s. Um, I think that it's demonstrated that they make intersections safer. It's demonstrated that they reduce speeds. Um I don't know why we are resistant to installing them. And I am a little concerned about um the cash cow argument, which is the argument that's being successfully used in Ontario right now to fight them. And if we say that we are installing these in order to pay for bike lanes and active transportation infrastructure, that will feed into that cash cow argument. The argument here is that we are gonna save a whole bunch of money on accidents, we're gonna save a whole bunch of money on health care on the healthcare system, we're gonna save a whole bunch of money on police enforcement and courts, and we're gonna make our roads safer. This is a win-win for everybody. And I guess there's a capital cost to installing them that maybe the province is worried about right now. Maybe they're worried about a backlash and not want to deal with the backlash, but bring it on. I'm happy as a city to take on these cameras. Um, if they if they want to give us the authority to install them, that I will invest the money to install them. I want people in New Westminster to know that this is a city when you drive through it. If you don't follow the rules of the road, you will get a ticket. You will get you it will cost you because I care primarily about people in my municipality being safe getting around.

Peter Ladner: 23:31

Do you have the power to install speed cameras?

Patrick Johnstone: 23:34

No, we do not. We know we're not legally able to do that. We're the only the province has that authority.

Peter Ladner: 23:39

And is there a uh legislated uh place where the revenues go, or is that debated or negotiated on every installation?

Patrick Johnstone: 23:48

Yeah, this is one of the common thing feedbacks we have. People always say to me, if you just set up a police uh at the corner of uh, I'm looking at my window right now at Eighth and Royal, they'd be able to hand out tickets all day and be able to pay for all the city's revenue with that. Um the reality is ticket revenue for Motor Vehicle Act violations goes to the province. Um, it is largely returned to municipalities through grants for road safety and other things, but it is returned back on a per capita basis, not on uh like you know, so if we go a bunch more tickets here in New Westminster, I have to pay the police to hand those tickets out, I have to pay the police to go to court to make those tickets stand, but I don't get any benefit from a municipality as far as my revenue from handing out those tickets. And again, a bunch of the cost savings go to the healthcare system, the cost savings go to ICBC, the cost savings go to provincial agencies. So yeah, we can have a conversation about that math. I can see a reason why we don't want every city having the ability to hand out tickets. We don't want to, we don't want to be the Dukes of Hazard and have uh boss hogg just handing out random tickets to pay for the city's revenue. That's probably not a fair way to allocate that revenue. And it's probably, and at some point, the emphasis does go away, go to being revenue driving instead of being to road safety. And we have to make sure the emphasis stays on road safety. That's the only way people will respect and understand and support the political decision, is if we actually demonstrate this isn't a cash cow. This is about keeping your children safe when they're walking to school.

Peter Ladner: 25:18

We're gonna do a future podcast just on this topic and the conditions under which people are more willing to accept these cameras. You know, if you give them notification, if they're in the right places and so on. But I think in the interim, uh we, and I sounds like you, would continue to push for them. And I think the argument of cost savings, if people want to talk about money, then it's not just the revenue, it's also the cost savings. And those should also be taken into account.

Patrick Johnstone: 25:45

You know, a third of a third of my police of my fire department's time is spent responding to road acts. It's a third of their time. So there's this one other example you don't think of of how a municipality like New Westminster spends a bunch of money on an issue that um enforcement could help with.

Peter Ladner: 26:01

And I'm I'm gonna guess a third or some significant portion of your police officers' time is also spent on traffic enforcement.

Patrick Johnstone: 26:09

Yeah, traffic enforcement and responding to accidents. Not so much enforcement as just responding to the incident, you know, managing the traffic situations around incidents, making sure things were secure, and investigating incidents when they happen. Yeah, that takes a bunch of our time as well.

Peter Ladner: 26:23

And your police and fire budgets, I'm guessing, would be more than half of your entire budget?

Patrick Johnstone: 26:29

Uh, when you put the two together, it's almost half of our budget. Yeah, we're we're relatively efficient here in New Westminster. We have our own police department, which costs a little more than RCMP, but we get really good response for that. But it is, it is definitely the fastest growing part of our budget right now. We're looking at a 5% or 6% tax increase next year, but our police department's looking at another 10% increase after 10% the year before and 10% the year before.

Peter Ladner: 26:54

Patrick, I think we've pretty much covered it off. I really appreciate your insights and your leadership on these things. And uh, we're right there with you at the BC Cycling Coalition and other groups are eager to support you and other politicians who are willing to make those choices and make those decisions and demonstrate in the results a better city and a safer city. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Patrick Johnstone: 27:18

Well, thank you for giving me the time to chat. Yeah, nice to see you again.

Peter Ladner: 27:27

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca.

The width of a queen-size mattress. That’s the picture we keep coming back to when we talk about BC’s new minimum safe passing distance for cyclists. But how can police actually prove a too-close pass, and what tools — from dashcams to clear signage to fines — will result in safer daily rides? Corporal Michael McLaughlin, Media Relations Officer for BC Highway Patrol (RCMP), joins us to unpack what’s enforceable, what’s cultural, and where advocates can focus to move the needle.

Peter Ladner: 0:06

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Cyclists in BC have been outraged and saddened by news of fellow cyclists being killed by motorized vehicles in recent months and years. One particularly tragic and recent example was the cyclists riding in the Pentecton Fondo, who was killed. There were two cyclists killed in Prince George. One cyclist killed in Prince George and two injured during a training ride for a cops for cancer ride. And there were other instances in U Royal, Langford, Nanoose Bay. It makes all of us a little bit wary and a little bit angry and wondering what we can do about it. One response has been to pressure the BC government to pass Bill 24, which they did in June 2024, which requires cars to leave a one-meter passing distance between them and vulnerable road users, including cyclists, under 50 kilometers an hour and 1.5 meters at higher speeds, which I like to remind people is the size of a queen size mattress. But cyclists ask themselves, is this being enforced? If it is, uh has anybody ever got a ticket for this? And if we want to know, how do we find out? So I'm here to find out. And I've invited to join us today, Corporal Michael McLaughlin, who is the media relations officer for the BC Highway Patrol, which is part of the RCMP. And uh he's hopefully gonna give us some answers. Welcome, Michael. Glad to be here, Peter. First of all, can I call you Michael? I know your proper title is Corporal McLaughlin. Um is it okay to call you Michael?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 2:09

Sure. I think for the purposes of this conversation, let's get right to it and go with first names.

Peter Ladner: 2:14

Okay. So let's get right to it. And I'm gonna start with my standard question. I know you're a cyclist.

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 2:19

Yes.

Peter Ladner: 2:20

Could you describe for me your most recent ride?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 2:24

Ooh, most recent ride. Well, I'm a club rider, among other things. I really like road riding, so I think my most recent ride would probably be that. Um I tend to go on weekends for these long 100 to 200 kilometer road rides where I race my friends, have some fun that way. And I'm also a commuter. Um, so this week I'm a little under the weather, but normally I'm riding once or twice a week to work as well. So as much as possible, I'm getting on two wheels.

Peter Ladner: 2:49

So when you say ride to work, you're riding to the headquarters in Surrey?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 2:53

That's right. Yes. So I go over a bridge, sometimes two bridges, depending on the route that I take and how much time that I've got, and of course the weather. Sometimes you want to get home a little more quickly. Do you feel safe when you're riding to work? That's a great question. And I think the answer is, as I'm going to say often today, it depends. Uh, if the weather's great and I've got lots of room and I'm feeling confident and the traffic isn't too tied up, I can feel really confident. On other days, perhaps as a careless driver or the weather's poor, I don't feel as confident. So it really depends for me. And I try to engineer my riding a little bit on my level of confidence for each day. You know, evaluate each day a little bit differently because each day does bring you different conditions.

Peter Ladner: 3:39

Have you been passed by cars that are closer than the safe passing distance?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 3:44

Oh, of course. Haven't all cyclists been passed by somebody going too closely. Heck, I was even hit this year uh on my on my commute home. I had a driver not paying attention, looking right instead of left. And uh luckily I saw the car coming and was practicing some of what I preach here and didn't uh the collision wasn't too bad. But sure, yeah, being being too close to vehicles is an omnipresent problem for me too. Well, let's talk about that.

Peter Ladner: 4:10

So you got hit by a car. Car made contact with you. Sure did. Was there a fine levied for that car breaking the safe passing distance rules?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 4:20

So in this case, the car was coming out of a parking lot and crossing over a bike lane to get into traffic. And it was one of those painted bike lanes that are quite common now in the Metro Vancouver area. I think they are helpful, but they can lead to a bit of complacency from bicycle riders, which we're going to come back to later. Luckily, perhaps because of my job and I'm well aware of the risks, I'm constantly looking out for problems. So as this person came out of the parking lot and blew through the lane, I slowed down enough so that the collision was minor and actually hit the side of his car. So, yes, that would still have been a violation. It would have been a fail-to-yield violation. In this case, I wasn't hurt. Uh, we talked, we exchanged information, and my bike was okay, so I chose not to pursue a claim or any charges, and we just went about our way. Did you get mad? Uh yeah, I think it's fair to say I got mad in the moment. Um, fortunately, I controlled my tongue to a point. Um I don't think getting angry is is going to be useful in that situation, although I certainly felt that emotion. But yeah, I mean, I'm human. Uh, I don't I don't like getting hit by a car any more than the next person.

Peter Ladner: 5:32

Well, it sounds like your case may have been one of those it depends issues because the car was coming out from the side, not just going parallel with you. But uh let's say it was going parallel with you. Um is this first my first question is really, is this legislation even enforceable? Like how would you enforce, how would you know or measure or prove that somebody was too close within that forbidden distance?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 6:00

You're asking a really important question. And a lot of people get upset when uh laws aren't enforced as much as they would like. But the trick with the minimum passing distance law is you must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person was within that minimum passing distance. One of the great tools that BC Highway Patrol has now is in all of our vehicles, we have dash camera mounted video. And as each officer moves towards having body camera, that also gives us a new level of evidence. The trick is you're probably going to have to have video evidence or something similar to prove that minimum passing distance. So this is never a law that I would expect is going to get enforced in enormous numbers. Unfortunately, it might get enforced more after the fact when a collision has occurred. It does give police that extra tool if a cyclist hasn't been seriously hurt, for instance. Uh the fact that you made contact with a cyclist is pretty clear evidence that you are violating that law, so a driver can get a ticket that way. It is nice as a police officer and as a traffic enforcement officer to have that extra tool in your tool belt. Again, I caution people, I don't think we're ever going to see enormous numbers, but this is progress in terms of legislation. Also don't forget, most drivers are really trying to do the right thing. They're trying to obey the law. And when you codify these things, when you tell people, look, 1.5 meters is as close as you want to be, and it's the size of a queen-sized mattress, then most people will try to follow that law. So hopefully we, as the as our culture improves with cycling and driving, we get more and more safer and respectful of these different road users.

Peter Ladner: 7:50

Well, let's talk about that. We are both of us assuming that drivers know about this, but I would say it's a safe assumption that they have no idea. Do you have any suggestions as to how we could ensure that they at least know about the safe passing, the minimum passing distance?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 8:08

Education is always a really important part of any law. And you're you're right. Most people probably don't know that there is a law one to 1.5 meters. But slowly over time, we have to educate people. With education comes enforcement, because no matter how much education you do, there will always be some people who are scofflaws. They don't care what the legislation says or they think it doesn't apply to them. This is very common when you're stopping people for traffic tickets. They will give you an excuse that rhymes with, well, I'm special. I don't need to follow the distracted driving laws in particular, I don't need to follow the speed limit because I'm a good driver and I have a great car, this kind of thing. So yeah, education's always going to be a piece. I think one of the key things to remember, particularly in these polarized times, is getting angry and finger wagging is probably not the optimal way to convince people to change their behavior. I'm very conscious of that as a police officer. I try to use humor in discussing these things, but talk about it, talk about it a lot. Uh, Hub and the other cycling advocacy groups out there need to bring it up regularly in a way that is really meant to share the information, I think, rather than force it down people's throats. And over time, and it will take time, people will get better and better and more and more knowledgeable. Another key component is educating the youth as they're first getting into driving. Include bicycle awareness and vulnerable road user awareness in that uh that curriculum for driving schools. Make sure there's a component where they understand what the rules and laws are. Is that there now? I don't know. I'd have to talk to, and you'd have to talk to private companies who are actually delivering this because it's it's not a government-run program in terms of uh driver education.

Peter Ladner: 9:58

Aaron Powell Doesn't ICBC have a standard curriculum that the private driving schools have to adhere to or live up to?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 10:05

So as I understand it, there is standard um metrics that must be met, but these are really leading more into the driving test component. You know, you must meet XYZ behavior. And it's not so much um it's not so much telling people how they have to instill that behavior. Which is why when you're selecting a driving school, parents, I would say be very selective. Don't go for the cheapest version, go for a version that is established and that has uh that really takes their job seriously and is not just trying to educate people to pass the test, the the road tests.

Peter Ladner: 10:41

Well, I think you, in some previous correspondence we had suggested ICBC could get involved. Does ICBC have a role in this?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 10:51

ICBC certainly has a role. There's also an organization, Road Safe BC, where they do a lot of education on road safety. We work with them a bunch as well. And I see it on their on their social media platforms. They are putting these sorts of messages out. And with any sort of message on social media or any and anywhere else, you need to repeat it over and over for it to sink into people. One recent thing we've done, unrelated to cycling in particular, but we can we can get back to this and for vulnerable road users as well, is there was a law passed in 2018 called mandatory alcohol screening, where police no longer need reasonable and probable grounds, or pardon me, reasonable suspicion to believe that somebody has consumed alcohol to administer a roadside breath test. So this has been going on for seven years, and the vast majority of drivers still don't know about it. So we've actually relaunched a campaign this year to educate people on mandatory screening, and I must have put it in four or five different news releases and done a dozen interviews, and even professional journalists don't realize this law is there. So it just tells you anytime you're trying to educate people on a relatively new law, like the vulnerable road users law, which is only a year old, it's going to take some time and a lot of repetition and effort and patience.

Peter Ladner: 12:10

And money. Because in Ontario, the Share the Road Coalition has launched a very big ad campaign with TV videos and all that to make to bring this uh point across. But another idea that's been put forward, which I'd love to hear your thoughts on, are is to change the road signs that say share the road, and they have a picture of a car and a bicycle, and insert in between them 1.5 meters and two little arrows pointing at each at each of the two parties. And that would be a constant reminder, like a little mini billboard that the drivers are seeing all the time, over and over, at no real significant cost, and you don't have to pay for media and TV ads or whatever. Is that something that you would support or you think would be useful?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 12:56

Well, anecdotally, do I think that'd be useful? Sure. I I think there's anytime you're dealing with changes like this, it's got to be a multi-pronged approach. And you've got to bring in creative ideas. I like the idea of road signs. Now, one thing I have observed from talking to many, many people at the side of a road is drivers don't absorb every road sign they see, to say the least. And the more complicated you make a sign, the less likely they are to understand it. But could that be a component? Could you put it in some or on more signs? I think that's a great idea. You know, once uh once you look at the cost, it sounds to me like it could be a fairly low cost, um, effective, and again, not preachy way to get this message across. So just as we're talking here, seems like a great idea. Let's let's see if uh let's run it at the flagpole and see what happens.

Peter Ladner: 13:45

Would you support us if we went to somebody and asked to have that to make that happen?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 13:49

Officially, as a member of the ERCMP, I don't advocate, so I couldn't I couldn't go that far. But as a cyclist, would I like to see creative ideas like that? Absolutely.

Peter Ladner: 14:15

So we don't have any data, I gather, on uh say passing distance enforcement. Um, we don't know. Uh is there a way that cycling advocates and and uh safety advocates in different communities around BC could get that data or work with their local law enforcement agency, in many cases the RCMP, to educate drivers more or enforce it more? What could we be doing?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 14:43

So yes, there I think there's different things we could be component doing. When it comes to the statistics side of things, ICBC is the best organization in BC. As police, we tend to use a couple of different databases, primarily the Prime database, also a database called TISMIT, where we collect enforcement and ticket data respectively. But it gets really complicated. Our databases aren't set up for gathering province-wide statistics. They're really set up more for detachments, individual areas, individual units to track uh to track enforcement for court purposes, first of all, and then secondly for the priorities of that community unit or detachment. So that's one of the reasons it takes ICBC quite a long time, typically a year, to vet all the information, put it all together, crunch the numbers out, make sure they're they're accurate. So certainly approaching ICBC about that is one thing for advocates that they make one avenue advocates may consider taking. In terms of local detachments and units, absolutely, there's no reason a local cycling community organization can't approach their local detachment, can't approach their local BC Highway Patrol station and ask about doing something cooperative. There are people like me whose job it is to do public relations, to do that outreach to the community. And really, my job in some respects is no different from any other police officer on the road. Public safety number one, protect life and limb number one. And if cycling advocates can come with that goal in mind and show that, hey, you know, we're doing this to protect not only current road users, but the next generation of cyclists coming up, I think that there could be a real appetite for that. Even approaching like community liaison officers working in schools might be a way of doing it. So there are many different avenues that we could take that maybe don't cost as much money. And I encourage you to get creative and get local when you're when you're trying to get these messages out.

Peter Ladner: 16:46

I want to do a little sidebar here on you mentioned the BC Highway Patrol Office and the RCMP as though they may be different. Can you just explain the difference between the two?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 16:57

Well, BC Highway Patrol is essentially a part of the RCMP, but what we do that's different, though we have when you when you see an RCMP officer in uniform, they're what we call a contract police officer. That means we're part of the provincial police. We're doing uh enforcement in Coquitlam, Ashcroft, communities on Vancouver Island and around the province. BC Highway Patrol doesn't have a detachment where it's answering 911 calls like those, like a place like Coquitlam. What we're doing typically is focused on numbered highways, so major arterial highways in the province, and we are doing mostly enforcement, plus, we have a mandate to do serious collisions involving fatalities and suspected criminality, where we're the primary investigating agency. So it's not as easy to walk up to a BC Highway Patrol office and propose something simply because we don't have a front counter where people approach and do a criminal records check and make a complaint, et cetera, et cetera. That tends to be a detachment. But we work hand in glove with our RCMP uh compatriots around the province. We have the same powers of arrest, the same powers of investigation, and our primary goals, which is public safety and enforcing the law, are exactly the same.

Peter Ladner: 18:15

So you would advise if people wanted to talk to the BC Highway Patrol, if you go to your local RCMP, they that's the conduit to the highway patrol.

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 18:24

Yeah, that's a great place to start. Um you can also do a good old internet search and come up with a BC Highway Patrol uh contact on the internet. It'll probably end up in my inbox, actually. And I'll if I can't answer your question, I I know somebody who will. So yeah, we we've been approached by people in the community many times. I get multiple emails um every week and sometimes every day from interested members of the public. We try and answer everybody's questions. We try and the you know the the best service we can with the resources that we have.

Peter Ladner: 18:56

Um You may I'm not gonna ask you, put you on the spot and ask you your thoughts on the BC government's uh pausing/slash canceling of their active transportation grants to communities to make roads safer, a mere one less than one percent of their budget. Um but one of the proposals that we've come up with is that uh, because of course they have to deal with financial pressures that are pretty extreme right now, um, to step up automated enforcement and use those revenues to pay for design improvements and bike routes and so on. What are your thoughts on automated enforcement uh red light cameras and or speed enforcement that doesn't require extra police personnel, in fact, could save money on police personnel and be effective, fair, and of course revenue generating, which I know sometimes triggers people, but still if they voluntarily break the law, they should be okay with paying a fine.

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 19:56

Yeah, that's a that's a serious and important conversation to have. Uh, as a police officer, I can't advocate one way or the other. Um I think these are worthy conversations. We have to figure out um that right balance between giving up some of the perceived liberty on roads so that we are safer and that we have resources to apply to whatever priorities that we want to. As a police officer and as BC Highway Patrol, we're going to enforce the laws that are out there. We're going to work with the resources you you give us as a government and as taxpayers. While we can't advocate, we do encourage creative ideas. You know, come up, come up with whatever you think is useful and we'll make it work when you tell us what that is.

Peter Ladner: 20:41

So the RCFP has never taken a position on automated enforcement, camera enforcement.

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 20:47

Publicly, we're not taking a position now. Uh there are some times with the BC Association of Chiefs of Police where they'll come out and do some particular advocacy that where they've all worked together. But certainly as a unit, BC Highway Patrol would not do something like that. No.

Peter Ladner: 21:02

Are the penalties for dangerous driving? And I I saw that when you were discussing the priorities of the RCNP, the priorities, they were uh Well, I'll let you say them. There were three things. Speed.

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 21:16

So yeah, we we tend to be uh evidence-based, data-driven. That's the that's the big thing in BC Highway Patrol these days. Consistently, the three things that cause the most fatalities on BC rows are, in no particular order, speed, distraction, and impairment. So those are our priorities when it comes to enforcement. Particularly, speed tends to be wrapped up in in almost every highway collision that we deal with. So we do a lot of enforcement around those because those are the things that are going to save the most lives. Is there room for other priorities? Sure, but those are the things that are going to be at the top of our list based on those numbers.

Peter Ladner: 21:57

Totally understandable. Uh now I want to refer again back to Ontario, where as a result of a police officer being killed by the side of the road while riding a bicycle, um his widow, Eleanor McMahon, who's been on this podcast, lobbied for and achieved something called Greg's Law, which was heightened penalties for people driving, particularly while their license was under suspension, or I assume also impaired, distracted in other ways. Do you think that the penalties that we have in BC are sufficient to get people's attention and make a difference in safety for cyclists?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 22:38

Well, it's a good question. And it's tough to say. I think the the real answer is it probably depends on the person you're you're giving enforcement to. And we all want to have blanket solutions because I think they're easier, but the truth is every situation is a little bit different. And I get to uh read into the weeds of some of the fatal collisions that you've mentioned earlier involving cyclists, for instance, in this province this year, some of the high-profile ones. And every situation is different. In some cases, cyclists are doing behavior where they're not uh they're not helping themselves. In other cases, you're dealing with motorists who are well outside the acceptable behavior uh for any any modus. We're talking like impairment, excessive speed, distraction, the very things that we mentioned earlier, which creates this incredibly sad outcome when you're hitting a vulnerable cyclist. But again, as a police officer, I can't advocate, nor can BC Highway Patrol advocate for particular penalties. We're going to work with what we've been given. I can certainly say that in the past decade, we've seen marked changes in BC around impaired driving, where we have immediate roadside prohibitions that have given us more of those tools in our tool belt, which are very useful. The excessive speeding fines and particularly the impoundment, um the impoundment powers have really dramatically increased over the past, what is it, five years? And that really stings. When you get an excessive speeding ticket, you're not just paying the ticket, which isn't around about$400. Your car is getting impounded, and you are also facing serious insurance and um and licensing premiums that can add up to two or three thousand dollars very quickly. Could there be more? I mean, I'm a police officer. I always think there could be more. So uh, you know, I I and I understand why people who've lost loved ones want more enforcement. I completely understand. That's just outside of the police purview. Our job is to enforce the law that you, the people, and our legislatures decide is appropriate.

Peter Ladner: 24:49

You piqued my interest when you said that you have the opportunity to delve into traffic reports on some of these accidents involving cyclists. When the cyclist got killed in the Pentincton Fonda, which I've written in a couple of times myself, and has now been canceled. I'm not sure why, but we're going to find out about that in a future podcast. Um I was unable to find out what happened. Was the driver charged, convicted, fined, penalized in some way? Do you happen to know on that particular case what happened and what the outcome was?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 25:24

I do have some information that I can't share on that case. As I understand it, it is an active investigation. Now, typically, I won't speak to that investigation in particular. I'm going to pull back because it'll be relevant to your question. When you're dealing with a serious investigation involving death and potential criminality, it is usual and expected that an investigation will take a year to two years before charges are recommended or the case is concluded, depending on what the evidence shows. So it's not a surprise from an investigator's standpoint that that hasn't been, it hasn't been concluded to this point, or there haven't been charges laid. I am hopeful, given the incredible tragedy, that that they're they that they can make some good progress and have some um, let's say, heartening or supportive news for the families that are involved. But it's not my investigation, and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to share the details that I do know, other than to say I have confidence that that is a priority investigation and they're working hard on it, as they should be.

Peter Ladner: 26:26

So speaking of fondos, one of the issues that organized rides, cops for cancer, fondos, some celebration ride around town, typically faces very high policing costs. And I don't have the data, but I'm gonna guess that they've been going up and they're and they're probably not gonna go down. Uh, can you offer any comfort or rationale on why policing costs have to be so high and if there's anything race organizers or ride organizers can do to minimize those costs?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 26:59

Well, there might be ways to minimize costs around route planning. Certainly, the more major routes you're you're using, the more routes you're using through major centers and arterial roads, the higher the cost is going to be. Look, policing's expensive, and I wish it weren't so expensive. But when you're when you've got one police officer on the road, you're looking at two to three hundred thousand dollars a year to maintain that officer and all their equipment and the administrative costs and the radios, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's a very expensive, uh it's a very expensive resource. Um I think it can be very effective. I think it's necessary in these large events. But I, you know, other than changing route planning and working with the municipalities, I it it that's a tricky one. How do you reduce those costs? That's up to greater minds than me, and it really depends on the particular event.

Peter Ladner: 27:48

What frustrates you most about cyclists who disobey the law? Because there's a whole range of uh complaints we all often hear, everything from not wearing a helmet to busting red lights and stop signs, um, not right not riding with lights. As a cyclist and a law enforcement officer, where do the um where does the bad how does the bad behavior look to you and what should cyclists be doing better?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 28:15

So two things really frustrate me. One is you are misrepresenting every other cyclist when you're acting like a jerk, and you're building rage that sh and you're building this division between car drivers and riders. It shouldn't be there. I like to say I'm a motorcyclist, I'm a driver, I'm a pedestrian, I'm a cyclist, I'm all of those things and none of those things. And I think most of us are that way. There's there's a blurred line. So acting like a jerk means other people are going to assume that other cyclists are a jerk. You're also putting yourself at risk in a battle that you're going to lose. As a cyclist, there's a certain reality, much like being on a motorcycle, you are more vulnerable. I can tell you a hundred reasons of why I love cycling, but I won't deny that it does make you more vulnerable. So do the things to make yourself more safe, your family more safe, your kids more safe. And again, try and dial down that confrontational us versus them attitude. We're all sharing the roads together, and we all benefit if everybody can treat each other with more respect and with safety in mind. Great advice.

Peter Ladner: 29:22

Would you yesterday I talked to a cyclist who was telling me about an experience he had where he had to go out and take the lane because there was no shoulder, and he was going, he's a very serious cyclist. He was going 35k or so. A car came up beside him, and the guy rolled down the window and threw a fully loaded star cup of coffee from Starbucks in his face. He was so outraged. Are you seeing and and perhaps you could say, well, you know, he's blocking the route. What do you expect? Somebody's gonna get mad. Are people getting madder now? Is there more road rage than there used to be that again, cyclists should be aware of?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 30:00

You know, that's that's a tough question to answer because really we have to go with anecdotal information. I would say that as roads get more crowded, and they certainly have been, you do see higher instances of rage and bad behavior. There's also a difference between saying some bad words at somebody and throwing something at them. And if somebody throws something at you as a cyclist, it's time to call the police. Like that's that's beyond uh that's beyond, you know, road rage saying nasty things to each other. Not that I think it's smart to say nasty things to each other, but at the end of the day, you know, you can walk away and everybody goes home and can tell each other what a jerk the other person was and nobody's hurt. Um but cyclists have to be aware, you know, there there, I think as you deal with more congestion, there is more potential for rage. And perhaps as a society, we don't um we don't embrace the consequences enough, the potential consequences enough of that kind of behavior. And uh it's unfortunate that we are seeing that level of rage.

Peter Ladner: 31:05

This is not really fair to pin on you. It's not fair at all to pin on you, but I have had an interview with somebody who was hit by a car and knocked over and had a bad injury, and was told by the police officer, uh, it was a municipal officer at City of Vancouver, actually, that the cyclist had no right to be not getting out of the way, completely out of the way of that car by pulling over into little individual parking spaces and so on, uh which is contrary to the law. Do you think that police officers all fully understand the laws relating to the rights of cyclists? And are they educated in some way?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 31:47

Well, there we are educated in some way. Do we all get it right all the time? Frankly, no. Uh sometimes we don't. And if we don't, there are mechanisms for complaint. And I encourage people, if if they have been treated poorly, if you've gotten a you know an injury like like was described just now, and you think the police officer didn't do their job, then you should let that person's supervisor know. Follow up with that. Again, I encourage people to be as measured as possible, to be as polite as possible, but also to be persistent and to let us know as supervisors, to let our bosses know if you don't think we're doing a good job. We do hold each other to account. Uh, I'm in this job in this profession because I really care passionately about trying to do the right thing and making my community safer. There is nobody more annoyed uh at a police officer acting poorly than a police officer who isn't acting poorly. So follow up. Um if we get it wrong, then we need to know and we need to do better.

Peter Ladner: 32:51

Michael, I'm kind of out of questions. You've given some pretty good answers. And uh, is there anything else you think that cyclists and cycling advocates and people concerned about these issues should know that you'd like to share?

Corporal Michael McLaughlin: 33:05

Yes. So I'd like to talk about this idea that there's a real divide between drivers and cyclists. And I think we need to do our best to shrink that divide. The reality is the majority of cyclists are drivers too, and many drivers are also cyclists or their loved ones cycle. So when you're cycling, do yourself a favor, be as safe as you can, be visible, try and obey the rules of the road, don't be a jerk. And as a driver, give more room than you think you need. Take a breath. Imagine that's somebody you know and like on the bicycle, and try and give them a bit of grace. And even if you can be 20% nicer, a 20% better driver, a 20% better cyclist, then that's an improvement. And I'd love us all to make that effort.

Peter Ladner: 33:51

Great note to end on. We'll go to work on that, Michael. Thank you so much. Michael McLaughlin from the BC Highway Patrol, RCMP. Thanks so much for talking with us. My pleasure. Thank you, Peter. You've been listening to Bike Since, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca

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Imagine riding along dedicated trails through ancient forests and pristine valleys, stopping at local cafes and wineries along the way. This vision of cycle tourism isn't just a cyclist's dream – it's a billion-dollar economic opportunity, as Let's Go Biking author Colleen MacDonald reveals in our captivating conversation.

Colleen brings unparalleled expertise to the discussion, having completed 150 cycling trips across 44 countries and authored three definitive guidebooks on cycling in British Columbia. Her philosophy is refreshingly practical: build cycling infrastructure for locals first, then connect communities, and finally invite the world to experience what BC has to offer. 

Whether you're a cycling enthusiast planning your next adventure, a community planner interested in sustainable tourism, or simply someone who appreciates BC's natural beauty, this episode offers a compelling vision of how cycle tourism could transform our province while preserving what makes it special.

Released: Oct. 1, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Colleen MacDonald is one of the most active grandmothers I know. She's written three books on cycle touring. She's got a new one in the works, she's taken 150 cycling trips in 44 countries and I'm very happy to say she's recently joined the BC Cycling Coalition as a board member. And I'm very happy to say she's recently joined the BC Cycling Coalition as a board member so she can work on cycle tourism and that is something we're going to talk about what it is, why we like it, what it takes to make it happen and what are the next steps in BC to realize its full potential. Welcome, colleen. Hi, thank you Great to be here.

Colleen MacDonald: 1:08

First question tell me the last bike trip you took. Well, we were in Spain and Portugal. We actually did two trips back to back and discovered the Costa Brava, and then we did Porto to Lisbon. So that was very fun to explore over there. Do you ride an e-bike or a regular bike. Both my husband and I are in our 70s now, and e-bikes came along at just the right time for us.

Peter Ladner: 1:31

So you're an e-bike rider? Yes, so these rides that you're enamored of and writing about and describing these, are suitable for people who are not super serious, you know, trained up Fondo type riders, but just regular people who can ride e-bikes or whatever kind of bike.

Colleen MacDonald: 1:49

Exactly, and all the rides I like to do are smell the roses kinds of rides. So something fun and easy.

Peter Ladner: 1:56

So, other than giving you an opportunity to smell the roses, why do we want cycle tourism? What's the big deal? Why are you so interested in it?

Colleen MacDonald: 2:05

Well, I love cycle touring around the world. I'd like to do more in BC and actually we have a lot here, but it is fun to go to other countries because their networks are so organized and it's easy to travel around. It's fun to go to restaurants and things like that.

Peter Ladner: 2:23

What are the lessons when you go to other countries and you go to some of these places? What are you thinking about? Oh, we should be doing this in BC, we should. We should do X, we should do Y. What are some of the things that you think about that we could do relatively easily?

Colleen MacDonald: 2:37

Oh, it's just amazing what we could do here in BC and we're already doing quite a bit. But you know I get tired of taking plane rides places and I just like to go right out the front door or in my neighborhood or take a ferry and explore our own world. Here we have so much to offer for locals and tourists.

Peter Ladner: 2:57

Where do you live, Colleen I?

Colleen MacDonald: 2:58

live in the Lower Mainland near Port Moody.

Peter Ladner: 3:02

And do you have a favorite route out your back door that you like? Well?

Colleen MacDonald: 3:04

we love the Poco Trail. It's an amazing route and I can go right from my house around the Poco Trail and connect all kinds of places. There's so many great things, places to explore in the lower mainland.

Peter Ladner: 3:18

Tell us about some of your favorite rides around BC, because I know you've written books about just about rides in BC. Tell us about some of them and make me want to go on it.

Colleen MacDonald: 3:29

Oh, there are so many favorite rides. I just love the Okanagan, especially what they're up to. They're connecting all their routes. The island is an amazing place to ride, Even just locally here in the Lower Mainland it's fabulous. And of course, Whistler is just one of my favorite places. So we have a lot to offer.

Peter Ladner: 3:50

Now it seems that one of the secrets of successful cycle touring routes is a circular route that people can do. Can you describe circular routes we already have in BC and some that we could have, should have circular?

Colleen MacDonald: 4:05

routes we already have in BC and some that we could have should have. Well, one of the most popular circular routes is on the South Island. Goes from Victoria up to Cowichan and then over to the Gulf Islands, so that's a very popular route. We have other larger circular routes that are popular, mostly with road bikers because the infrastructure is not there for the kind of riding that I like. But yeah, loops are good but linear is fun too. Like the Okanagan Rail Trail is one of my favorites. It goes from Kelowna to Vernon but the Okanagan is getting very, very connected all the way along.

Peter Ladner: 4:42

What does it take to connect these routes, because I know, and I'm thinking about routes that are not just for people who are willing to brave the highways. But you mentioned the Cowichan to Gulf Islands route and I know that there's a section on Salt Spring Island that's not protected and maybe the last section of that route that isn't. Have you talked to those people in Salt Spring Island or figured out what it would take to make it all protected or somehow more attractive to regular, safety conscious cyclists?

Colleen MacDonald: 5:13

Definitely. I'm really in contact with Salt Spring Island and they're very excited to know that the CRD is planning a route across Salt Spring. It's going to be a two-phase route. It's going to be a two-phase route. It's going to be one part done in one year and the next part done in the next year and that will really close the gap on the Three Ferries route, which is a really popular route on the island. Most people who live on the island do that route at least once or twice a year. Now the big complaint is the dangerous riding across Salt Spring Island. But with the CRD planning to put in safe, separated cycling across there, it's going to be one of the key routes in BC that would be a circular route.

Peter Ladner: 5:55

Say that near big centres of population that you can point to, that. Say, if we could just get to work on this, we could really have a showcase example.

Colleen MacDonald: 6:12

Well, the Sunshine Coast is working on the Connect the Coast. They have done their preliminary studies. They know it's doable. They're working on getting funding for their completed plan and their vision is to connect the Sunshine Coast from the Langdale Ferry to the Egmont Ferry, which will be a huge, huge boost to cycle tourism for the links that we have on the South Island. A lot of people like to do that route now, but they're mostly road cyclists who are really confident riding with big trucks and cars not something that I could ever do. When the Connect the Coast safe, separated cycling route is created, it will attract a lot more visitors visitors like me who like slow biking but it will also connect the local communities. So again, we start with the locals and then we move on to connecting the communities. It's going to be a fabulous, fabulous project. Now they just need a little bit of funding. Like a lot of funding.

Peter Ladner: 7:12

They actually need a lot of funding. There are no shoulders on that route and you'd have to cut into cliffs and stuff. But what about the rail line from Squamish North to Prince George that has recently been abandoned? There's the routes already there. Oh, my goodness what does it take to turn that into a cycle?

Colleen MacDonald: 7:32

How many years have I driven up and seen that empty train track? It hasn't been used for a couple of years. And I just think, if we had the rail trail as a rail trail, as an active transportation corridor, well, I think more than that. I think it would provide egress, like they have done in the Miller Creek Trail in Whistler. That is emergency egress, and this Sea to Sky Trail could be emergency egress and also active transportation. I think, oh my goodness, it would be a dream come true if that happened.

Peter Ladner: 8:08

That's an interesting angle to think of these as escape routes. In the case of a forest fire, for example, which would be a very big problem at Whistler and I know some people who've already envisioned themselves escaping on their e-bikes. They've got extra batteries and a go bag ready and imagine a lot of people streaming down that railroad track and another way to pitch it to justify funding as well.

Colleen MacDonald: 8:35

Well, I think it's a natural fit, and you know, but some people want to get the rail service up and running, and if that's a possibility, that would be nice too.

Peter Ladner: 8:51

But if that is not a possibility, then I would be. Oh, I couldn't wait to ride that trail. Well, that'll be an ongoing debate, because that debate is going on in the Vancouver Island as well. And do we give up on the trains, or do we try to accommodate trains and cycles, or just make it cycling?

Colleen MacDonald: 9:03

Well back to the island. The E&N Rail Trail is just a natural spine for connecting communities up and down the island and will also be an amazing cycle tourism draw, I know, and also someplace in eastern US which you see as somewhat comparable to BC where tell us in New Zealand what they've done and what the impact has been on their economy?

Colleen MacDonald: 9:35

Well, new Zealand. We went on a bike ride about a year and a half to New Zealand and we were absolutely delighted with what we found. The cycling network there is absolutely off the charts and a real role model for us in BC. Now, in 2002, they started with one rail trail in Otago by 2009,. They were looking for some diversification away from the mining industry, and so the government seeded a $50 million fund to grow cycle tourism, cycling and hiking tourism in New Zealand.

Colleen MacDonald: 10:08

Well now, fast forward to now, they have over 2,800 kilometers of rides and their economy their cycle tourism economy is worth $1 billion annually. So for them that's a 1 to 20 return on investment. But beyond all the numbers, as a rider, the trails are fun, they're accessible for all skill levels. They've solved gaps creatively with shuttles, ferries, suspension bridge, even a jet boat through part of the Roxborough Gorge. We just couldn't believe what they have done and are doing in New Zealand, and we're so excited about it. We're actually going to go back next year and see some of the new connections that they have built. So we're pretty excited about the role model that New Zealand offers for BC.

Peter Ladner: 10:56

Well, the fact that you want to go back there is a pretty strong indicator that these are tourism attractors. But you've also made the point that they work best for tourists when they work for the locals. Can you just describe why that makes sense?

Colleen MacDonald: 11:15

Well, I feel that you build first for the locals. You can go right out your door and connect to local trails, either leisurely trails or like transportation, active transportation links. I feel you should go right from your door and then, when we have people who can go right from our own door, then we can invite others to come and visit our communities. And then you start connecting communities and pretty soon you have a cycle tourism network.

Peter Ladner: 11:44

You start connecting communities and pretty soon you have a cycle tourism network. Now I expect that New Zealand has a pretty active and sophisticated marketing system. If they've got that kind of money flowing into the country, what do they do to coordinate promotion of all these routes?

Colleen MacDonald: 11:58

Oh, it's absolutely fabulous their marketing and their infrastructure. You can go and find any trail that you want to explore. You can find service providers from that website. They make it fun. All the trails have great names that make it really enticing. The West Coast Wilderness Trail and their marketing is just world class. But we're doing similar kinds of marketing in BC. We just have to get a little bit more coordinated and really promote what we actually have.

Peter Ladner: 12:28

I think Colleen, what role do fondos and organized events, bike festivals, if there are any play in all of this? Because I would think, for example, there's a fondo in Kimberley around the time of our conference and I imagine there will be hundreds of people coming there, many of them from out of town, because somebody's organized something for them. Is that important? Is that useful?

Colleen MacDonald: 12:52

Well, I think the events are hugely important. The events and the bike parks bring a lot of cycle tourists to BC. I don't personally go in the Grand Fondo, but a lot of people do and they're coming to BC. They're saying, okay, I'm going to do the Fondo, but what else is here for cycling? And you know, we had Crankworx in Whistler recently that brings people from all over the world. There's the BC Bike Race, even the slow food rides that we see in communities. These all showcase our neighborhoods and they showcase BC around the world. So this is an important part of our cycle tourism.

Peter Ladner: 13:29

I love those slow food rides. I did one by Pemberton one time and one around Chilliwack and you get to stop and eat and just watch cows getting milked and find out about cheeses and beer and potato vodka and all this kind of stuff.

Colleen MacDonald: 13:47

Slow food rides are fabulous. That's my favorite kind of riding kind of writing.

Peter Ladner: 14:04

Well, in some ways you're a one-person marketing machine because you have written three books about. Your three books are all about BC. Did I get that right?

Colleen MacDonald: 14:08

Yeah, Vancouver first, Okanagan next and then, just in the last two years, I wrote Vancouver Island. So I'll tell you something about my books. I wrote the book I wanted to buy.

Peter Ladner: 14:23

Ah, so domestic market first, and then the outsiders will come and read it.

Colleen MacDonald: 14:27

I wanted to know where I could go writing. So I found out where I could go writing and then I figured if I needed a book to find, or a map and a route and a book, then other people might too. And so I do my book writing and my blog as my volunteer work. It's not for profit. Any money that is made from book sales I put back into cycling advocacy with donations to BC Cycling Coalition Hub, cycling and Trails BC and other local groups. So I really believe that you know, it's just a way of sharing the great things that we have here in the cycle world.

Peter Ladner: 15:05

So if we wanted to promote cycle tourism, why don't we just tell people to go buy your books and go to your website? They're called let's Go Biking. And are we done? Is that it? What more do we need to do?

Colleen MacDonald: 15:14

No, no, no, no. There's so much more we could do. Since I've written the Vancouver book, there's been so much infrastructure that's put in place that I am actually working on a rewrite of that. It takes a couple of years to write a book, but I'm working on a rewrite to show the connections that we have. I'll just give an example. Out in Langley, I had a standalone ride here, a standalone ride there, and now Langley has built so many connecting routes and trails that I'm going to be able to link them all together. So I'm excited about the progress that we've made that I see personally in the last 10 years all over BC.

Peter Ladner: 15:50

Well, I like that your books go out of date, Colleen, because it means we're making progress. Someone told me that Chilliwack is now laced with all sorts of impressive bike trails. Have you been there?

Colleen MacDonald: 16:00

Oh yeah, the Vedder Trail loop in Chilliwack is one of my favorite rides. They have many other connecting the Canyon to Coast Trail, which is one of the BC routes that we're all working on here in BC, has a great first section right there out of Chilliwack. So yeah, I love the Chilliwack area and Hope and Harrison and Agassiz and Abbotsford Just get me excited on the great things that we're doing here in the Fraser Valley.

Peter Ladner: 16:30

And why can you tell us about how First Nations are involved in these projects?

Colleen MacDonald: 16:35

Well, I am really excited about the First Nations aspect of trails. I'll give an example in Tofino, from Tofino to Euclid, the First Nations there was given funding to create the Upscheek-Tashee Trail which connects Tofino to Euclid and honestly I think it is one of the best trails in the world. The construction, the planning is just outstanding. It's fun. It's like riding a whoop-dee-doo ride. If you haven't gone to Tofino, you better go, because it is an amazing experience.

Peter Ladner: 17:12

I've wanted to do that. We did a podcast with Josie Osborne, who's the former mayor of Tofino, about that route and I haven't been on it but I'd sure like to have you done any. Tell us what you know about the Great Blue Heron Way.

Colleen MacDonald: 17:24

Oh, I'm so excited about the Great Blue Heron Way. This is Elder Ruth Adams from the Tawasin First Nations and she's working together with Trails BC and First Nations, and she's working together with Trails BC and a route has been planned and now they're looking for funding to connect sections of the route. It's mostly on greenways throughout BC and she's worked extensively with the team from Trails BC. Leon LeBrun is one of the key people who have created the route for the Great Blue Heron Way and now we're just looking for some support from the government, some encouragement, some funding to get this underway. This will be a fabulous draw for people locally and from around the world and the stories that they're telling along the way. That's the key thing. Her vision was to connect First Nations back together the ones that have been severed by highways and trains and things like this and to provide a link for First Nations people, but other people too, to tell the stories of the Stolo, the Salish Sea and the islands. I'm so excited about the Great Blue Heron Way.

Peter Ladner: 18:35

How close is it to completion?

Colleen MacDonald: 18:37

Oh, no, no, Not close to completion. They're at the mapping stage and the identifying stage. Now we need some signage, we need some encouragement, some connections on something Like the biggest drawback there is the Delta Port how they have severed the crossing from the Tuasen over to the. It used to be called Brunswick Point, it's called Canoe Pass, now named Ladner. You know there's things like that, that you know a pedestrian bridge or a tunnel there could quickly solve that problem and allow the connection of the trails.

Peter Ladner: 19:12

Colleen, does your book just deal with trails for road bikers? Where do mountain bikers fit into this? Because I know there are a lot of somewhat more rugged or demanding trails that will take you ever more places, and I know the mountain bike situation seen in BC is so alive. Do you tell people about or do you see those as tourism potential?

Colleen MacDonald: 19:34

Well, for me personally, most of the mountain bike trails that are in bike parks and things like that are too difficult, so that wouldn't be my first choice of riding. But it does have a very large draw and a large cycle tourism draw. Mostly the kind of routes I find are easy, like Whistler Valley Trail, around Stanley Park kind of thing, the Okanagan Rail Trail. I mostly look for the kinds of rides that I can do and there's a large market of I call them slow riders, slow bikers.

Peter Ladner: 20:11

Is there a municipality or region that you think really gets it in BC and is showing the way for others to follow?

Colleen MacDonald: 20:21

Oh man, there are so many. The Galloping Goose and the Lockside has been an amazing accomplishment. And that one for people who don't know it goes from From Schwartz Bay Ferry to Victoria and then out to Souk, the Galloping Goose. Galloping Goose was one of our first cycle tourism kinds of routes and what I'm talking about there is the highest searched route on my blog.

Peter Ladner: 20:50

Wow, so you are the data source on this. I was just going to say do we have data on how many people, how many tourists let's talk about tourists how many tourists come and what they add to the local economy?

Colleen MacDonald: 21:02

Well, I don't actually have the data on that.

Peter Ladner: 21:05

Well, your searches. Wouldn't that be like some kind of data point?

Colleen MacDonald: 21:09

Yeah, Well, I'm just searching for rides that I would like to ride. Now I'll tell you a little bit about my process on that. I can't know where all the rides are in the Okanagan or on the island, because I'm not there very often. So what I did when I was writing the books was connect with the local groups. Ribbons of Green in Vernon has an amazing resource and I connected with Ingrid Newman from Ribbons of Green and together we put Vernon on the map in terms of routes, and they've done a lot since the book was written and Ribbons of Green has all the routes that they need. Over on the island, in Comox, I met with the group of riders over there. We did a lot of Zoom calls. They would tell me their little secret routes and where they like to ride and together with all these groups all over BC, I found where the locals like to ride. So it started for me from the local base and then we invite our neighbors and then maybe from there we invite the world, who knows?

Peter Ladner: 22:13

So, from a provincial point of view, other other than you, who seem to be pulling a lot of these people together, who else, if anybody is, is trying to coordinate all this? And maybe you can say something about what you're planning to do at the our conference in kimberly in september 10th to 12th, which will be happening after? Some people will be listening to this, so I'm not just using this as a promo for the conference, but what needs to be done to get beyond your personal efforts to link people together and show these roots to the world.

Colleen MacDonald: 22:47

Okay, well, I will tell you, most of the grassroots level, or the wheels on the ground level, want cycle tourism here in our province because, like I say, we just want to go out the door, we want to be close, we want to just be able to explore our communities, we want to go and visit other communities and connect with them and then after that, as I said, we would invite the world. But what we need, the people in the communities know what needs to be done, they know what they need to enhance the gaps they need to improve and they're ready to go. They have their answers, but they need some help with the funding. And this is where I believe the government needs to step in, like the New Zealand government did, and create a board that actually works to work with the local groups to create a cycling network in BC.

Peter Ladner: 23:41

Who do you see being on that board? Was it the Ministry of Tourism? The Ministry of Transportation and Transit? I don't know, somebody from the UBCM.

Colleen MacDonald: 23:52

Well, yeah, all of those people need to be there. We met on Salt Spring Island with Lana Popham At the time she was the Minister of Tourism and Sport and she was so encouraging and so enthusiastic and said that you know they were going to be doing some cycling routes, or at least signing some cycling routes in time for FIFA. But we haven't seen solid evidence of that yet. So we're about a year out. So maybe some miracle will happen and those routes will be at least signed and created. But you know, we just really need to work together, pull together and make this happen, and I really feel the time is right. I feel that we have the market for it, we have the desire for it, we have the need for it for active transportation, and I think we can do it.

Peter Ladner: 24:43

Can you just say what impact you think the upsurge in e-bike use and ownership has on all of this?

Colleen MacDonald: 24:53

Absolutely humongous. It's been a game changer, for for myself. I've been riding an e-bike for about 10 years, and not so much from a physical need but for more of an exploring need. I can go farther, I can go places that I wouldn't be able to go on just a regular bike, but it really opens up doors. So, for example, there are routes that I might have put in my vancouver book initially, but they were too hilly. Well, now they're going in the next book for sure, because now they're great e-bike routes and I have seen so many people over the years who have rediscovered the fun of cycle tourism or cycling even in their neighborhood. With the advancement of e-bikes they're just really opening up possibilities.

Peter Ladner: 25:38

Tell me if you know about any chambers of commerce or tourism businesses that are active on this, because I see cycle tourism as getting beyond your usual cyclist constituency into an economic development zone that I would think would be of some great interest to chambers of commerce destination promoting organizations. Do you see them stepping up?

Colleen MacDonald: 26:07

It's been my experience that most chambers of commerce and tourism really are in favor of cycle tourism, really are in favor of cycle tourism. My sense is they don't have the money either and they're busy supporting so many other aspects of the tourism industry. But I feel that cycle tourists just add so much to the travel in a community. For one thing, they're out of their cars it's a slower pace. You're stopping by more stores and restaurants and coffee shops, wineries, this kind of thing. They're out of their cars, it's a slower pace. You're stopping by more stores and restaurants and coffee shops, wineries, this kind of thing. When you're out and you're on the ground. And even businesses in Vancouver have found, when a cycle path goes in front of their businesses, like the ones along Union Street, that their business has increased. So my sense of it is without actual numbers to back that up is that, yeah, absolutely, communities want a cycle tourist. A cycle tourist is a low-impact, high-economic-benefit type of tourist.

Peter Ladner: 27:15

Are there any provinces in Canada that are setting an example, Because I know so often if somebody in a policy or financial decision-making position can see it working somewhere, maybe even visit there and see the impact? We've talked about New Zealand, but something closer to home that we could sort of find is comparable.

Colleen MacDonald: 27:36

Well, quebec started about 15 years ago doing exactly what New Zealand has done over the last few years, and their routes now are connected routes over 5,000 kilometers all throughout the province and it's spilling into the bordering area along Ontario. Ontario now has what's called the Waterfront Trail which goes on many sections of the Great Lakes, and they're also using the same kind of funding government funding, government support, government marketing. That the Route Vert is doing so it makes for easy visiting. That the route Baird is doing so it makes for easy visiting, easy access, easy travel. And this is why I'm saying I really feel the BC government has a huge opportunity here to enhance cycle tourism and, let's say, active transportation tourism. So it's just one more component to make to show BC off. Bc is so amazing. Let's just show it off in different ways.

Peter Ladner: 28:42

You've identified in some cases, businesses that grow up to or have grown up to service this not just hotels or cafes, but actually people who take guided tours or rent bikes and can you talk a little bit about that whole aspect? Because that would both create jobs and investment, but it would also make it easier for tourists. They don't have to bring a bike or perhaps research the routes, they just go to some tour guide or store somewhere and off they go, it's all figured out for them.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:15

We'll have a great example of that.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:19

Paul Taplin from Ireland saw BC as just a great place to show off and he married a woman from Victoria so they moved together here and he had the vision to take people on tours.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:34

So he started off just picking people up at their hotel in Vancouver, taking them over to Lynn Canyon for a hike, telling them about the trees and the wildlife and everything over there.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:44

Then he'd take them in his shuttle van out to Pit Meadows and take them for a cycle tour around Pit Meadows, have lunch out at one of the local restaurants and make a real day of it, showing people an aspect of Vancouver that was different than Gastown or Granville Island or Stanley Park around the park kind of loop. And so he started about 10 years ago and now he's grown that business. He takes people from all over the world on cycle trips to Vancouver Island, the Okanagan and the Kootenays, but more than that trips to Vancouver Island, the Okanagan and the Kootenays, but more than that he's fun and he actually has become quite a good friend of ours and we went with him on a cycle tour back to his native Ireland and his mom and dad helped drive the shuttle van and we had a group of about 15 of our friends along and we just had the most fun. Anyways, that's an example of someone who saw the opportunity here in BC and has grown into a fantastic business and he offers guided and self-guided tours and it's really fun.

Peter Ladner: 30:49

You have mentioned that signage is important and I'm thinking about quick wins. I mean, it would be great to spend the $600,000 per kilometer which I understand it would take to take the E&N rail into a fully functional cycle route. But are there some quick wins with just better signage where the routes are there but people just don't know about them?

Colleen MacDonald: 31:13

Absolutely, and I feel that maps and signage are our first thing. We do Map signage and also putting a technology on an app, just letting people know where they can go. There was a little yellow sticker with a little black arrow and that was enough for us to know we were on the right track. We weren't deviating from where we should be. So signage can be simple or signage could be more complex. Now, when we look at the canyon to coast route, that starts out well. It continues throughout the Lower Mainland. You can see sections throughout the Lower Mainland, but the start section out in Chilliwack has great signage, a real nice logo, and it's really clear when you're riding the route that you're on the route. So I think signage is one of the first things we could do to make more routes accessible. I just want to say something about that too.

Colleen MacDonald: 32:10

In New Zealand, they have a great route called the Alp to Ocean, so they start at Mount Cook and they go right down to the ocean. It's quite a few days. You can ride this route or you can do it in pieces if you like, but they have signage all the way. Now, this is not a designated, ready-to-go mop cycling trail. This is a route, and so what we're talking about here in creating cycling tourism in BC is not so much the actual infrastructure like the Okanagan Rail Trail, but signing a route, but making sure along the route that there are nice shoulders and things like that. So we could get started with signed routes, I would think next year.

Peter Ladner: 32:51

Colleen, you've done a great service to this province and to this cause. Well, you've done a great service to this province and to this cause and I just have to commend you for that and encourage you to keep going, and I really would love to see you. Your new book is about cycling around the world, is that right? Yeah so then I would want to go to Albania or something.

Colleen MacDonald: 33:10

We've been to Albania I bet you have. Yeah, so there are so many places to ride around the world, but you know we've got it here too and, uh, I just love making maps. I'm pretty excited to get going on the cycle tourism bigger maps to encourage people to connect our communities and, uh, and find their way around bc would you be open to people contacting you directly who want to follow up on this?

Peter Ladner: 33:38

get more involved, do something in their area.

Colleen MacDonald: 33:41

Oh, absolutely, I get so many emails from people all over the world. In fact, I had someone from down in the southern states, carolina I think, this morning, say I'm coming to the island, would you help me decide where to go? I said, oh, absolutely, that sounds like fun. So, yeah, I am really keen. I hear from people all over and I'm always glad to know that they have found a fun place to ride, walk or roll?

Peter Ladner: 34:09

Is there a role for a more institutionalized response to those emails, like a government website or a I don't know Velo BC website or something where people could go and find out all this stuff?

Colleen MacDonald: 34:22

Well, I think we're going to do that on the BC Cycling Coalition website, aren't we?

Peter Ladner: 34:26

Okay, let's do it. Anything else you want to add or tell us about?

Colleen MacDonald: 34:33

Well, I'll just summarize by saying I truly believe cycle tourism in BC is doable, it's practical and it pays off. And I hope the government is listening because I think they could have a nice profit segment if they paid attention to the cycle tourism which they are doing with active transportation. But we could always do a little bit more and then, once that's in place, we're going to have to share our story and then more people will come to our neighborhoods and more people will come from international places. And when people explore around and visit communities, businesses grow, communities thrive and BC will become an even better global cycling destination.

Peter Ladner: 35:20

Thanks, colleen. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. Cyclingca. You can help us amplify BC cycling coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

To read more about Colleen's adventures, order her books, or connect with her about Cycle Tourism, visit www.letsgobiking.net 

Follow Colleen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/letsgobikingnow

Trail Rep for the Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association, Founding Member of the Mission Community Cycling Coalition, former bike-shop owner, and also motorcycle enthusiast Rocky Blondin reveals how the once-clear distinction between motorized and non-motorized vehicles has become dangerously blurred. 

Release Date: September 10, 2025

Transcript: Season 3, Episode 9 – When E-Bikes Become Motorcycles: The Gray Areas of Electric Transportation with Rocky Blondin. Sept. 10, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. It's not all roses in electric mobility land was a sentence that came to me from today's guest, rocky Blunden, telling stories about issues of e-bikes and e-scooters and irresponsible cycling behavior. You may have heard about the 12-year-old cyclist who killed a pedestrian in Calgary. You may have seen gangs of 14-year-olds on e-bikes and e-scooters behaving somewhat recklessly in a town near you. You may have heard about the UK police impounding e-bikes that are actually not e-bikes they're just motorcycles in disguise. In disguise, and Rocky Blundin is the trail rep for the Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association and a founding member for the Mission Community Cycling Coalition, so he straddles both the mountain bike issues related to this topic and the ones in the cities. Welcome, rocky. Hi Peter, thanks for having me the cities.

Rocky Blondin: 1:43

Welcome Rocky. Hi Peter, thanks for having me.

Peter Ladner: 1:45

So, before we start, I just want to ask you what was your latest bike ride that you've done?

Rocky Blondin: 1:55

Last night Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association had a social ride here in Mission up on Bear Mountain, so I rode to the hills and did some trails in light rain with about 30 or 40 others.

Peter Ladner: 2:02

Very nice, yeah, right around the same time I was at the opening ride for the Granville connector in Vancouver.

Rocky Blondin: 2:08

Oh fun.

Peter Ladner: 2:09

How many bikes do you own? Honestly straight to the point here 11.

Rocky Blondin: 2:16

Whoa.

Peter Ladner: 2:19

That's just you, I have six.

Rocky Blondin: 2:22

There's 11 in my garage. Your wife has the other five, my wife has two, my son has two and my other son has one. I don't know if that adds up to 11, but I'm pretty sure there's 11 down there.

Peter Ladner: 2:33

Okay, so you qualify for the podcast I I it full disclosure.

Rocky Blondin: 2:38

I used to own a bike shop. I got caveat that that I owned a bike shop up until 2023 and therefore comes with the territory you kind of have to as a business practice.

Peter Ladner: 2:46

So oh, okay. So I was going to ask you how you got involved with cycling advocacy.

Rocky Blondin: 2:53

Uh, that is a good question. So I started mountain biking in 2003,. Give or take, my college roommate dragged me up to SFU and then I found out there was a group working on those trails, got interested in what that meant, I went to their AGM and sat down. It was my first AGM I'd ever been to for any organization. I was in my early 20s and they said at the end of the meeting they were looking for extra board members. They said, well, we need a couple more board members so we're giving away a hat.

Rocky Blondin: 3:19

Anybody want a free hat? I said, well, that sounds great, I'll take a free hat. So I signed up for the board, not having no idea what that meant, and I quickly became a board member of the Burnaby Mountain Bike Association. And from that point forward I've been on the board of the Burnaby Mountain Bike Association, involved with the Tri-Cities Off-Road Cycling Association and now here in Mission with the Fraser Valley Mountain Biking Association. And through that affiliation I got pulled into call it urban cycling advocacy. The city of Mission formed a cycling task force and my name was on the list of people to pester to join that to figure out where to put bike lanes and such in our community.

Peter Ladner: 3:59

Now you have a special status in my heart and mind because you're a podcast fan. You approached us about this podcast and you mentioned that, as a result of listening to this podcast, your wife, I believe, was going to, or would like to, start a chapter of Cycling Without Age, taking elderly people around in trash hos. Is that happening?

Rocky Blondin: 4:21

Yeah, I feel a bit of first-time caller, long-time listener here, and so we've listened to the podcast on and off and one of the episodes did inspire us to investigate what that looked like. That community has been welcoming to learn about and my wife's taking the lead there. Cheryl she's looking into opening a chapter here next year. They did caution, all the challenges associated costs and logistics, so she's working through those, but it's looking promising and it just sounds wonderful because it resonated with me. My mom died a couple of years ago and had some cognitive decline and all she really wanted in her elder years was to to ride a bike again, and I would have loved for that program to exist. If I could have taken my mom for a bike ride, it would have basically, yeah, made her year.

Peter Ladner: 5:09

So to do that for others would be wonderful. Why did you contact me?

Rocky Blondin: 5:15

So I reached out because I'm working on an awareness advocacy campaign contained within electric mobility awareness advocacy campaign contained within electric mobility. I'm seeing a common element between what challenges related to e-scooters and e-bikes and they overlap so you can almost capture the whole problem within without identifying each element. And it amounts to. Historically, we had a very clear delineation between a motorized thing and a non-motorized thing. So you had, if it had an engine like a dirt bike, it was a motorized thing. If non-motorized thing, so you had, if it had an engine like a dirt bike, it was a motorized thing. If it was a pedal bike, it was different.

Rocky Blondin: 5:50

And it's only with electric mobility that those lines have crossed over, and it's especially with e-bikes because a pedal assist class one, e-bikes is treated in our, in bc, uh, as a cycle, as a bicycle, it's not any different. So you can ride on trails, you can ride in bike paths, and so that's the legal framework around. It Sounds great, I support that and think it's wonderful. However, that opened kind of the fox into the henhouse and now electric motors of bigger and more powerful means are going on the trails, are going into bike lanes and, like you talked in the intro about motorcycles couching themselves as e-bikes. When I encounter one of these devices that shouldn't be where it is, the first thing out of their mouth is I say well, that's a motorcycle, you shouldn't be here. And they go no, it's an e-bike and it's an electric motorcycle, but it's the first thing.

Peter Ladner: 6:40

So where would you draw the line between motorized and non-motorized?

Rocky Blondin: 6:48

So for me and that's where e-scooters and e-bikes do have a bit of a delineation E-bikes it's pedal assist, only 32 kilometers an hour, max 500 watts, and those are the regulations that the provincial government has put onto trails and for most bike paths. I think this is where the regulatory environment is really confusing, because the off-road use and the on-road use rules don't overlap. They don't overlap perfectly, and so it creates gray areas.

Peter Ladner: 7:18

Why, then, is it possible to sell an illegal e-bike? I've seen these ones with the little faux pedals sticking out that I don't even know if they even move, but they're supposed to make it look like an e-bike, I think. And yet it's all souped up and way over the limits you just described.

Rocky Blondin: 7:35

Yeah, funny enough, that problem is, I think, as old as time, because I remember as a kid gas-powered mopeds having little pedals hanging off the sides, so they were low power motorized vehicles, couching themselves as something else, and the pedals were purely decorative. So that's not actually new, that the means of powering it it can be, you know, gasoline, it can be electric, it could be a nuclear reactor, it's all the same. Outcome here it's that that's a motorized machine and it shouldn't be where it's going. And but the e-bikes being allowed, there is the thing that's now blurted because you, you're letting that person with pedals and a motor in. Why can't I go?

Peter Ladner: 8:14

why does it matter?

Rocky Blondin: 8:16

um, so I can. I could speak to the trail side and then my urban environment side. So I live in a suburban environment. Um, we've got e-scooters, the gangs we talked about, rolling around teenagers everywhere. I think it's one part. Wonderful, and then also terrifying when they're doing 80 kilometers an hour on a sidewalk and cutting into traffic. That's terrifying 80.

Peter Ladner: 8:35

Wait, hang on 80 kilometers an hour on a sidewalk that actually happens are moving yes, okay not all that, they all come.

Rocky Blondin: 8:45

They all come in various power levels, um and so, but there's some. There's a one specific in our neighborhood, absolutely it's doing 80, 90 like yeah okay, so speeding, dangerous behavior, dangerous riding yeah, and the speeding comes with the inertia behind it.

Rocky Blondin: 9:01

You've got a machine and a person doing a lot of you know, uh, got a lot of power there, and so they can hurt themselves and others. Um, so that's on the urban side. And then we've got, um, these things are normally called surrounds or, you know, commonly called surrounds, but it's an electric motorcycle or electric dirt bike and we see those running around the city parks. We built a pump track here for cyclists and they're riding the pump track and endangering the kids that are using that, because now it's a motorcycle that can land on a kid who's on a scooter. It's it's a mismatched use. You typically don't want, you know, you don't want your kid playing in traffic. You don't want a motorcycle on a pump track. That's a bad idea and it is illegal. That's explicitly forbidden on the science, but people are doing it so if it's illegal, what sort of is there?

Peter Ladner: 9:44

Does anybody ever go to a bike shop and say, what are you doing with that bike? Or, like they did in the UK, do the police go around and grab these bikes and take them away and pound them or confiscate them in some way?

Rocky Blondin: 9:56

Here in Mission I'll speak to that. So our community has gone on the record. The CAO has stated that the RCMP won't enforce e-scooter and e-bike regulations because they're too busy dealing with other things. So it's a case where the you know from call it management directive is that's not a crime we're worth pursuing. But then it's also, I don't think historically we've had a lot of enforcement in these areas because you know, when I was young, friends of mine would ride their dirt bikes around town.

Rocky Blondin: 10:26

We lived in a rural part of Langley. You typically didn't worry about police. You were far more concerned about social enforcement. I think that's actually a huge component that's kind of missing today where, if you understand what the social norms are we were more concerned about getting caught by somebody's mom on the dirt bike than we were by the police. Norms are we were more concerned about getting caught by somebody's mom on the dirt bike than we were by the police. And if those social norms are kind of clear, if that scooter is okay on the sidewalk because it's low power, low speed, or if that bike is an e-bike with pedal assist and all the power limits and accepted where it's supposed to go, then it'll be okay. Then people can identify that and be okay with it and, conversely, criticize somebody who's not a pedestrian on the sidewalk and say, hey, you're not supposed to be here, but right now the pedestrian on the sidewalk doesn't know the rules. The RCMP honestly have had a hard time understanding the rules. I've met several officers that aren't clear on the legislation.

Peter Ladner: 11:19

So, rocky, you talk about social norms, but where do these norms come from? Do people, are they expected to be educated in? I don't know school about rules of the road, is it something? There's no driver education or testing because these vehicles are all unlicensed and uninsured. How does somebody learn what they should and shouldn't do?

Rocky Blondin: 11:42

Great question. I'm not a sociologist so I will do a poor job of answering, but in my opinion I see this through parenting and the like and it amounts to a lot of the challenges with youth on these devices, amounts to parents that have purchased them for them and kind of just unlocked them with them and said all right off, you go without any boundaries. And that's not critical of the parents, it's just an observation that social norms you know culturally I mentioned before about. You know I was worried about getting caught by my friend's mom on the dirt bike. You know the parents created that social norm for our teenage community and then we as adults do for each other too.

Rocky Blondin: 12:20

I talk to my friends about oh, you're doing what with your e-bike? Oh, that doesn't sound right. There too I talked to my friends about oh, you're doing what with your e-bike? Oh, that doesn't sound right. And I, you know a sour look on my face will indicate just the emotions contained within and my friend might adjust his behavior. And then if I encounter somebody on the sidewalk and I'm personally doing this trying to have that conversation I did it with a person on a gravel path in a park on an electric motorcycle. This thing looked like a Honda street bike and I had the conversation. It's a tough conversation. It requires me to say hey man, can you stop for a second? I want to talk to you about what you're doing, and what you're doing isn't legal and it's not right. And he refuted it. He didn't agree with my perspective, told me it was an e-bike, told me he was allowed to do it. Told me the RCMP had told him it was okay.

Peter Ladner: 13:02

Do you think that he was just being devious, or did he actually believe all that?

Rocky Blondin: 13:12

I genuinely think he was telling the truth when he said the RCMP accepted what he was doing, because I've heard it myself from RCMP officers.

Peter Ladner: 13:17

Wait, they're okay with people going 80k down the sidewalks on an illegal e-bike.

Rocky Blondin: 13:22

I'd suspect that any RCMP officers that saw that happening would intervene. But this person was just on an electric motorcycle in a city park, traveling at low speeds, so therefore doing something that doesn't appear objectively problematic but is inherently illegal. Because you're riding a motorcycle in a city park If I took my Yamaha in there, it would stop me right away but because this thing has a plate on the back that says e-bike and is powered by a battery, they're acting and reacting differently.

Peter Ladner: 13:51

And was that person riding under 32 k's per hour?

Rocky Blondin: 13:55

Not with any technological enforcement. And that's the thing about an e-bike that is regulated to that speed. It's done through software and through a speed sensor and that device the device that I saw this gentleman on, could do 80, no problem, or more, I bet you. It could go 120.

Peter Ladner: 14:12

So you used to be in the business. I understand. It's not that hard to take the governors off these e-bikes and turn them into real motorcycles.

Rocky Blondin: 14:22

Now that I'm a former retailer, I can say Did you ever do that, Rocky? I've never done that. No, I don't own an e-bike or operate any of these things.

Peter Ladner: 14:29

but Do you know people who've done that?

Rocky Blondin: 14:31

Yes, and it's not hard. Oh, okay, yes, and it's not hard, okay, no, you just have the light of the speed sensor. Not that I'm teaching kids how to do this, but you just have to tell it the information it needs to know, and then you can unlock. Yes.

Peter Ladner: 14:44

So it sounds like the bike retailers are in on this game, like they're making money from selling these illegal e-bikes.

Rocky Blondin: 14:51

I'm glad you asked because I put a lot of thought into this aspect, being a former retailer, so I've heard people say, well, they shouldn't be selling these. They the colloquial they. The retailer is responsible to sell products that comply with the laws, and they're doing that. These aren't illegal devices. There's no law that says you can't sell an e-bike that has a power level. You just can't operate it in certain places. It can go out the door and be ridden on private property and it's legal. So that's, it's not an illegality question at the retail level.

Rocky Blondin: 15:24

And uh, also speaking from a retailer's perspective, it's difficult to make a go of a bike shop these days. Specialty retail is a hard thing to do and so you're going to have a hard time turning down a high margin sale that can help you keep the lights on for the betterment. If you, even if you feel that way and I talked to our bike shop last night at our social ride he agreed. He's like these things are a problem. They're breaking our bike hoists. We can't, they can't facilitate a big e-bike in the shop because they're going to injure their staff. So it it's. It's having these external issues and that's not reconciled in in what's happening.

Peter Ladner: 16:00

So I want to go back to the parents, because you said I asked you a question where would the social norms be imbued in riders? You said well, the parents get in these bikes, they should? I guess it's implicit. They should tell them out of be careful. Here's what you're supposed to do. But a lot of parents probably don't care, or might well they should care, because their kid could die. But let's say they don't even know what the rules are. Who would pass on that knowledge or who would share that knowledge? You said the police don't want to deal with it. I know there's some education at schools, but I don't know how thorough that is.

Rocky Blondin: 16:35

Speaking, I got two school-aged children. I don't think there's a lot of this being talked about. When I went through school, we had a bike rodeo. I learned my hand signals in grade four and they still hold true today, and they don't have that education in schools anymore.

Peter Ladner: 16:51

Well, that's not quite true. I know hub cycling has been paid by the province to go and do that in grades three and four in certain schools in certain cities or towns around the province.

Rocky Blondin: 17:00

I was just about to say we as an external group have gone in to do this, but it's not curriculum, it's not like an element of a given piece of a program. It's if a teacher is interested, they can contact the local advocacy group, like hub, like the Community Cycling Coalition, and we will then go and do some of this stuff. Yeah, now.

Peter Ladner: 17:21

I know you've been talking to other organizations about this elsewhere in the province. What's the discussion and what solutions have you come up with?

Rocky Blondin: 17:30

and so that that came from. On the mountain bike side, we saw impacts on trails. We're seeing these electric dirt bikes. They're tearing up the trails and we were really upset about that locally. Uh, we kind of reached out to other stakeholders in the province and found out the it's happening everywhere in varying amounts. The worst was in Kamloops. We came to learn they had a real bad case of the electric mobility blues, um, damaging public facilities, a really bad accident with two kids on these things that got maimed. So it was really rampant there and so we talked about okay, well, we all identify what the problem is. And to your point now, what? What's the solution For us? On the trail side, we're talking to provincial land managers talking about they've established the legal regulations for what an e-bike is an e-bike and what isn't, but it's not clear and it's not clearly marked.

Peter Ladner: 18:21

So we want to improve, improve signage, things like that so at the entrance to a trail, I would say non-legal e-bikes only, or limited to something or other exactly, and I've seen elements of this down in places like in arizona on trails.

Rocky Blondin: 18:35

So here we're looking to do more of that where we make it clear what is and isn't acceptable. You know, 32 kilometers an hour, 500 watts, that's it, no throttles. And then hikers reading that sign can see something that's breaking those rules and say something. If you see something, say something. And now if they know the rules, that'll help.

Peter Ladner: 18:55

So we're looking to improve kind of that social and real enforcement, although in the forest real enforcement's few and far between you're suggesting that the enforcement in off road it pretty much has to be by peers and other people out in the trail. There's not going to be some park warden or police officer wandering around giving out tickets no, those people do exist.

Rocky Blondin: 19:14

There's jobs within BC Parks and Rec Sites and Trails that do enforcement, but there's so few in number covering so much area, they'll never solve this problem. We're asking for that. We're also asking and this is the piece I think super important is, we can get a government, either the federal or provincial government, to make changes to what's legal for sale. Because you asked about is it the retailer's fault? No, is it the manufacturer's fault? No, still complying with the laws, although many bike companies aren't. By the way, they're putting stickers on that are lying because they say it's 250 watts power and it's not, because they advertise a torque number that's way in excess of that. And torque and power are correlated through RPM, like it's just formulas. And so if somebody was enforcing the manufacturers to put real numbers on these things, then it would have a decal that states what it is. That would be a step.

Rocky Blondin: 20:08

But what I'm proposing and advocating for provincially is that they make it very clear what's safe and legal. So on the e-scooter side, they've made a designation for a 25-kilometer-an-hour limit and a power limit I think it's 250 watts, but I'm not 100% certain and that's in the province's proposed legislation that the city of Mission, as one example, is chewing on ratifying here locally. If they did that, that's great. But how do you know something's compliant? It needs a big green sticker on it. Shiny can't peel it off. This thing is cool and it can ride on a sidewalk and it can be operated by a teenager. That's okay. Everything else you see doesn't have a sticker. Good, it's not okay. And, like you were talking about in the UK, that'll make it really clear to start dealing with these things, confiscating them. If it's on a sidewalk, take it away.

Peter Ladner: 20:55

That's one thing that could happen, but the other part of it would be if it's not a legal e-bike, it should be licensed and insured, correct, both on and off-road. Yeah, is that going to happen? Does that ever happen?

Rocky Blondin: 21:10

That would require enforcement. On-road. You've got licensing, but you do have then federal Transport Canada regulations you have to comply with for a road vehicle. You have to have headlights, turn signals, all the stuff that say a motorcycle would have, and then it would have to be safety rated. So I don't know if there's a legal path to getting an e-bike to become a motor vehicle. I'd suspect not, but that's plausible. On the off-road side I can say that an e-bike that exceeds the power levels of a Class 1 e-bike can absolutely ride on dirt bike trails. That's fully okay, and they would just have to get an ORB plate just like a dirt bike.

Peter Ladner: 21:44

Okay, I wanted to talk for a moment about rentals, because there's a lot of e-bike, shared e-bikes, now shared scooters. People rent them and I have heard stories about kids getting on these bikes. I know from when I used to ride a motorcycle that the first 10 rides or something are that, whereas 80% of the serious accidents occur. People start to get a little false confidence and then they get stupid and they don't know what they're doing and off down they go. Um, is there anything that the renters people who are like the charity bikes or e-scooters is there any qualifiers for? If you want to pick one up, do you have to know anything about how to ride one of these things? Does anybody caution you not to go too fast or watch out for those big potholes with those tiny wheels, or whatever?

Rocky Blondin: 22:34

yeah, having rented. I've rented public e-bikes in Vancouver. It was a wonderful experience. My son and I bombed around downtown and had a great day. I think if you enforce and have that power limit and that speed limit, then you're also restricting the risk here that I think inherently comes with it when you learn to ride a motorcycle. I was given the advice that I stuck to to get a small one and I did, and now I've got a very big one and that's all fine and well. Um, but I didn't learn on that. And if you keep the power levels low, it keeps the weight low. That's the thing about a small motorcycle and a small e-bike is it's gonna have limited mass and therefore limited risk to others. If you crash into somebody with a 48 pound bike, it's probably not gonna do too much damage. If you crash into somebody with a 48-pound bike, it's probably not going to do too much damage. If you crash into somebody with a 120-pound thing, with a 200-pound rider there's a lot there and it's going to be a lot worse.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

And there's not just the physical damage. I know UBC researchers presented at our last AT conference the results of a study where they asked people for their perception of danger and discomfort in a bike. Separate a bike lane from different types of vehicles that are going by. And the one that was off the charts for discomfort and perceived danger and perhaps real danger was these false e-bikes that are actually motorcycles that are going so fast. So even if they're not actually hitting people, they're rattling people and maybe keeping them from wanting to go out in those bike lanes themselves.

Rocky Blondin: 24:00

Yeah, I see a version of that on the trails. When you're riding a mountain bike and ascending, so going uphill, you're moving pretty slow. You've got high gearing, except if you're on an e-bike, and so, as somebody on a regular bike is going uphill and then gets passed by an e-bike that can be doing 30 kilometers an hour uphill while I'm, you know, going eight, it's, it's upsetting, it's to the whoa, what's that? You get startled, yeah, and it does. It does take away from the experience, but that's a bit subjective. Um, the bike lane side, I could absolutely see that. It's that speed, delta, right, that's. What's upsetting is if you're moving at 10 kilometers an hour and something else is moving at 50, it's a lot to process. And if it's in close quarters I've seen those videos of semi-trucks passing people on bikes that are kind of being exposed to that risk and getting startled by it. As an avid cyclist, it's terrifying.

Peter Ladner: 24:50

Well, in some ways, this is a great problem to have. We've got more people out on active transportation, We've got kids actually moving around and getting exercise and not depending on their parents to drive them. We've got less congestion. We've got cleaner air all those good things. So I don't want to make it sound like this is all horrible, but it's pretty clear from talking to you that there are some issues that have to be dealt with.

Rocky Blondin: 25:13

I agree with exactly what you said. The three things that I kind of uh capture this with is electric mobility has been a blessing. Um, the two blessings I mainly see are democratized cycling. It really kind of makes it accessible. You could flatten hills. When I used to sell e-bikes I'd say, hey, push this button, the hill's gone and so now you can ride a hill so much easier. I love when I see a 70 year old grandfather riding out with his 20 year old grandson, like, and they, they can do the same trails together. What a, what an amazing thing and the husbands and wives too.

Peter Ladner: 25:46

Whichever one is the weaker rider gets to come along and stay and keep up I've experienced that exactly with my wife.

Rocky Blondin: 25:53

Yeah, we did e-bikes and it was the great equalizer, even though she's a very good cyclist. What it did is it just created a leveled up playing field. So, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it also provides motorized mobility at a fraction of the energy. So like, if you go to run errands in your car, you're talking about 75 kilowatts. You can do the same thing on something like this for 0.75 kilowatts. So you can do the same thing on something like this for 0.75 kilowatts. So we're 100x less energy and for a sustainable future, we have to reduce our energy load like this. It's just the way we have to go. So we've got the blessing.

Rocky Blondin: 26:26

Prior to this, you and I have talked about the curses, which are the other side of the coin. We're learning about the unintended consequences. They're dodging and weaving and they wear things out. Mostly, tires and trails like the tires wear out faster on these machines at a bike shop. They're going through. They're consuming more resources. It takes energy to do something as well as put the tires on everything.

Rocky Blondin: 26:47

And then the first thing out of an e-motor. It's created. This gray area this is the huge problem is now the first thing out of an e-motorcycle when they get caught doing something they shouldn't be is it's an e-bike, so that's, you know, part of the curse. And so the third thing is I look at the future, and the future is we can change the regulations. We've got some Like there's transportation regulations that exist. They just need to be modernized.

Rocky Blondin: 27:12

The policy being proposed here in Mission, that's a provincial policy. I think it's okay. It restricts to 16 years old for e-scooters and I don't think that's fair. I see 12-year-olds out on these things. That's awesome. This is better than them getting driven around in a car. They can and should be on a power and speed limited one. There's nothing wrong with that. But if it does 80 kilometers an hour, I don't put my 12-year-old on a motorcycle for a reason that's not going to end well.

Rocky Blondin: 27:38

So we can update the rules. We can make enforcement both legal and social enforcement easier to do with better indications. This thing's legal, this one's not, because as soon as there's a motor involved, it's a gray area. But let's clear up that gray area. Big green sticker, just like the eok for the hov lane for your electric car right. Big green sticker, eok in this bike lane, and then this can make it all sustainable. Then we can have, uh, the right things in the right places and be responsible with the use and the one thing you didn't mention was affordability too like, and freedom too.

Peter Ladner: 28:14

Those kids can now get around on their own, they've got agency in their own lives, and parents don't have to have numbers of cars and pay for all those trips. So it's a future we'd all love to see, but we've just got to figure out this thorn in the it's all roses future of e-bikes yeah, the last thing that, as a former retailer, I'll throw out is, um, that I.

Rocky Blondin: 28:42

I think the right to repair would be an important element here too. Um, a lot of these e-devices are being sold by websites, so e-commerce only, or, say, a big box retailer. You can go down to your local Walmart, for example, and get an electric mobility device, an e-scooter or an e-bike. You can get them at Best Buy even, and so that's all fine and well. You can't get it fixed there, and so what then ends up happening is that thing, a part, fails, they bring it to their local bike shop. They would bring it to me, and I can't get the part because there's no supply chain for it to me, and I can't get the part because there's no supply chain for it. I can't go to Best Buy to get a motor. So now they spent $2,000 on this thing, that the motor failed and it turned into a pumpkin. So I am of the opinion that if you can't fix these things, you can't sell them.

Peter Ladner: 29:25

Now does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed to sell something with a sealed box or with no parts? Or does it mean you're just advising people only go and get one at a bike store where they'll be able to fix it because they'll have parts, because it's a brand name?

Rocky Blondin: 29:40

My advice to anybody thinking of getting something like this is exactly that that go somewhere that can't be fixed, because then the part supply is available. I mean, if you do buy them online, typically there is a part supply there, but then you're fully in DIY country. You line, typically there is a parts supply there, but then you're fully in diy country. You don't have a local resource that can help you for a flat tire, dewire the motor, because sometimes you have to take all the wires out just to change a flat tire. Yeah, and it's um like. I talked to the bike shop last night. They did one tire on one e-scooter and they'll never do another one, because it was 14 bolts and wiring to get the wheel off, and now they inherit that liability, so they're not interested. So now you've got how do you fix it? You get a flat tire. That's, that's simple. That can happen now what wow?

Rocky Blondin: 30:21

so I think if you're going to sell them as a retailer, you should have the capacity to repair them. You don't have to take it there for repair. But if you aren't fixing them, then there you're creating a waste stream that then can't be fixed, and then this is just more batteries and more motors and more wheels into the world that just get thrown away because of flat tire or less.

Peter Ladner: 30:41

And if you're a prospective buyer, beware of the lure of the cheap online price or the ones in the lineup at, let's say, london Drugs, where they used to put them as an impulse buy in the lineup and support your local bike dealer, who's probably, as you said, struggling a little bit. Drugs, where they used to put them in the as an impulse buy in the lineup and but and support your local bike dealer, who's probably, as you said, struggling a little bit and needs the business and will be able to serve you better than the online cheap one I agree with that.

Rocky Blondin: 31:04

I will say and I used to tell my customers this not all big box bikes are created equal. They do sell some good ones too. That's not all bad, but they have the capacity to sell some really bad ones, versus that local bike shop typically will sell something that they can stand behind because they've got to fix it. It's going to show up eventually, come back with a brake adjustment. So they want something they can get parts for and it's not a nightmare.

Peter Ladner: 31:27

Rocky, how close are we to the green sticker?

Rocky Blondin: 31:31

Zero On a scale of one to ten. I'll go one because the idea is conceived, but I'm just getting out to a point. We had a provincial meeting on the trail side, um when you say provincial meeting, who comes to these meetings?

Rocky Blondin: 31:44

so the outdoor recreation council of british columbia, um, the who else was there? The mountain bike tourism association and then a couple of us as local trail advocates and we're having a zoom call on all right, this is a problem provincially. What are we going to do about it? We're talking about going to the ubcm and making some awareness there. Um, and so the green sticker idea is something I conceived as a response to that social enforcement thing.

Rocky Blondin: 32:08

And I think local places, a municipality or a trail association like the one I could volunteer for or that I do volunteer for, they could do that. Our city could be inspecting these devices and say, yeah, look, that's one that's compliant, it's speed limited, it's power limited, here's your decal. And then they're good to go. And our trail association could do the same thing. Hey, that's a pedal-assist e-bike, it's not going to hurt the trails thing. Hey, that's a pedal assist e-bike, it's not going to hurt the trails. Here's your sticker, your e-bike approved. So these are something we can do as a grassroots initiative to create that social enforcement. These laws don't hold water legally, but they're.

Peter Ladner: 32:41

They're that social piece, and then, ideally, the province or the federal government can do this at a manufacturer's level I love that you uh have so much confidence in social norms and peer enforcement and people looking out for the situation and just being good citizens, because it would be lovely if that would be a widespread practice and perhaps even solve this problem.

Rocky Blondin: 33:07

I'll say that comes from being in the forest. That's much more commonplace on the trails. That's where this whole notion came, because from 20 years of being a trail advocate I've noticed that the norms are socially created. There's no legal enforcement around, there's zero. So here in the urban setting you do have police to enforce things but, as I've been told by their management, they've got bigger fish to fry, so it's kind of being left to us anyways fish to fry, so it's kind of being left to us.

Peter Ladner: 33:36

Anyways, rocky, thanks so much for telling us all these stories and educating us to these problems and so on. Is there anything else you want to add?

Rocky Blondin: 33:41

I think we've covered the gamut. I'm really grateful A for your podcast, sharing this wisdom of all your guests, and I'm grateful to have this opportunity to talk about something I see as important. The thing I want to get in front of the tragedy I'm trying to stop is if an e-scooter with a youth on it gets hit by a car and killed, we'll see a reaction that kid's parents will react. There'll be a new law I call it Jimmy's Law but it's going to be a knee-jerk reaction to a real big tragedy and we can avoid that if we get in front of this, if we create the regulations. We have these discussions.

Peter Ladner: 34:20

Well, let's stay in touch and anything the BC Cycling Coalition could do to help you along, we'd be happy to do that. We're trying to get the RCMP to come out, the Highway Patrol to come out to our conference in Kimberley on September 10th to 12th to talk about their view of enforcement. The issue that we would, of course, want to raise with them was that safe passing distance enforcement and other things, but generally safety for vulnerable road users from whatever dangers are out there cars and trucks more particularly, obviously, but also, uh, bad cyclists and bad machinery, that excess power that's being used irresponsibly.

Rocky Blondin: 34:55

Yeah, ultimately, anything that exceeds the power levels. I call them for what they are they're motorcycles and these are motorcyclists. I'm a motorcyclist and therefore I'm advocating for people to be safe motorcyclists and respect everybody else.

Peter Ladner: 35:08

Thanks, rocky, great talking with you. Thank you, great talking with you. Thank you. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

What does it take to transform a car-dependent small town into a place where cycling feels safe and accessible? Ruth Lloyd is finding out firsthand in Williams Lake, BC.

As a returning resident to her hometown, Ruth experienced the stark contrast between places where active transportation was normalized, and her pickup-truck dominated community where, as in many small cities or towns, the highway consititutes Main Street. Rather than accepting the status quo, she co-founded Streets for All Williams Lake and began methodically building support for cycling infrastructure through creative advocacy.

Ruth's approach blends journalistic storytelling with strategies such as lending an e-bike to the mayor to bring him onside. Now she's tackling an even bigger obstacle: provincial highways that create barriers within communities. 

Find out more about Streets For All Williams Lake HERE.

Release Date: August 19, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. We've all heard how small groups of dedicated people are the real agents of change in the world. Today's guest, in my opinion, is one of those people. Ruth Lloyd is a journalist in Williams Lake who seems to have unlimited energy to campaign for safer cycling in her community. I invited her on the podcast not just because I too, used to be a journalist in small town BC, but because I was bowled over by a few of her initiatives that really seemed to be moving the dial in Williams Lake. Today we're going to talk about those. Welcome, Ruth.

Ruth Lloyd: 1:08

Hi Peter, Thanks for having me. I feel like one of those people on the radio, a long-time listener, first-time caller.

Peter Ladner: 1:16

Well, I introduced you as a journalist, but that doesn't explain to me how you got into being an activist for cycling in Williams Lake. Can you tell us how that happened, how long have you lived there and what prompted you to get active?

Ruth Lloyd: 1:31

Well, I'm actually from Williams Lake originally. I grew up here and you know I was kind of born into the I don't know driving culture of Williams Lake. I took it for granted that driving was how you had to get around, though I did spend my childhood riding my bicycle around my neighborhood. That's how I spent my evenings and I loved it.

Ruth Lloyd: 1:54

And then I got away from it. And then I just moved away for university, lived other places and when I came back here it felt like Williams Lake was on the right track. And then I moved away again and I lived in a place where everything was close. I was walking and cycling to all my errands and then I moved back and wondered why can't we do that here?

Peter Ladner: 2:20

Do you have a vehicle? Do you have a F-150? Do you have a vehicle? Do you?

Ruth Lloyd: 2:23

have an F-150?. Oh well, we actually. Yes, I have a vehicle. I live a little bit out of town from the downtown and we have 20 acres, so we have a truck and we have another vehicle, but I prefer to bicycle if I can.

Peter Ladner: 2:41

Do you bicycle into work?

Ruth Lloyd: 2:43

Yes, I do.

Peter Ladner: 2:45

And then what happened?

Ruth Lloyd: 2:50

You discovered that it wasn't what it ought to be. Yeah, there's only a short stretch of highway that I have to take and then I can kind of get on side streets and go different ways. But I'd been living these other places where I was just so used to acting like a car, as you're supposed to able to move with traffic and kind of take it for granted that you could follow the rules and feel okay doing that. But unfortunately here drivers aren't used to seeing bikes on the road and acting in that way, and I had a lot of really negative experiences that left me wishing for safer infrastructure and I found myself breaking the rules way more than I normally would to make myself feel safer.

Peter Ladner: 3:36

What do you mean by breaking the rules?

Ruth Lloyd: 3:38

Riding on the sidewalk, having to sometimes take, yeah, just kind of choosing my route in a way that wouldn't you know, I'm kind of making connections via sidewalks and some other things that aren't necessarily how you're supposed to do it.

Peter Ladner: 3:58

Well, on a more positive note, you did a program with some of your counselors where you got them onto bikes to have that same experience. Tell us how that worked and what happened.

Ruth Lloyd: 4:12

Yeah, it was really great. It was in 2023, and we got a grant from Emotive BC and we do these electric vehicle grants, and so they opened it up that year for e-bikes as well. And so they opened it up that year for e-bikes as well and we thought that it would be really great to try and show people. It was kind of a combination you not only get to show your elected officials some of the experience of riding a bike in your community, but you also get to highlight how much an e-bike is an advantage in an area like ours.

Ruth Lloyd: 4:48

We have a lot of hills. We're in a valley, so it's really advantageous. Once you have an e-bike, you flatten out those hills and basically anyone can get around without, you know, getting too sweaty and out of breath. And we actually didn't just do councillors. We had our mayor, we had MLA Lauren Dirksen, our local provincial representative. We had some different leaders from community groups. We even had the Citizens on Patrol, community policing leader, lead our parade. He does a lot of work at the parade. Thousands of people come down to watch it and we had him out there riding around to do his work for the parade on e-bike to show off its advantages.

Peter Ladner: 5:40

So you managed to get an e-bike from somewhere with this grant and then you offered it to these people for 48 hours or something, or how did it work?

Ruth Lloyd: 6:05

He had it for. He didn't want to give it back actually, but he had it for over a week. He took it to City Hall for City Hall meetings, parked it right in the room in the chambers while they were meeting and he brought it to his gurdwara for his Sunday at the temple and then he yeah, he took it on rides. We would try and escort them on a ride so that we could film them. So at least part of the demonstration was filming them riding the bike and then we could do social media posts around it to help raise awareness. And some counselors or users just wanted to have it and then take some rides and they wanted to do their own videos. So it varied actually, but we worked in partnership with two local bike shops and they helped us out with Lampus.

Peter Ladner: 6:57

Were some or most of these people first time e-bike riders.

Ruth Lloyd: 7:03

I think it was probably two thirds or so. We actually did a dozen different community leaders on these bikes, so we had the M. Our MLA learned Dirksen. He had it. That was his first e-bike ride and he had it, for I think he had that bike for four days maybe. And he had it for I think he had that bike for four days maybe. And yeah, our mayor, he hadn't. He'd grown up riding a bike in India and then he came to Williams Lake in the 70s when he moved to Canada and he hadn't ridden a bike the whole time he lived here, and so then he got on this bike and he said it made him feel like a kid again. It was really fun.

Peter Ladner: 7:46

Oh, nice to hear it Now. You have also been very active in promoting I don't know whether I should say initiating getting an active transportation plan done for Williams Lake. Tell us about that.

Ruth Lloyd: 8:03

Yeah, I definitely can't take all the credit. We've had this amazing active transportation working group that was formed through the city transportation working group that was formed through the city. We were asking for the city to kind of lead something like an active transportation committee or working group. To look at that, because our city had had one in the past and so we wanted them to revive it and when they got that group together they were amazing. Everyone on that group is, you know, we have this passionate team and some of those people.

Ruth Lloyd: 8:34

We were out canvassing for people to fill out the survey during all the engagement sessions and we had the most responses on the survey that the city had ever seen and just really worked hard and so much input and positive engagement. It's been really great. We had, you know, quite a good turnout for our live in-person engagement session with the planners. It was really positive. But yeah, we just started asking for the city to apply for the provincial funding to do a transportation active transportation network plan and we had this great person at the city who was staff at the time. She applied. She's no longer with the city, so then it kind of was on pause. We kept kind of pushing and then they hired a consultant to kind of help move it forward again. And then urban systems came in and did the project and they did a great job.

Peter Ladner: 9:40

So it was definitely a team effort now you mentioned an active transportation advisor group or council or something, but when you say we are you part of an association. Do you have your own cycling advocacy society or organization, or is it just random citizens getting together?

Ruth Lloyd: 9:58

So the Active Transportation Working Group is a group that has a bunch of different stakeholders and I personally represent and one of the members of that group, but I'm also a representative from Streets for All, Williams Lake, which is the advocacy group that my friend and I co-founded.

Peter Ladner: 10:19

Streets for All Williams Lake. So that active transportation plan has passed. Is it now an official plan?

Ruth Lloyd: 10:27

Yeah, so the city has adopted it and it is part of the city's yeah active transportation. Well, it is the city's. They paid for it because it was partly paid for through a provincial grant that they applied for and then the city had to check in as well. So it's the city's active transportation network plan. They've adopted it and now they are currently working on a official community plan review and we're hoping that that will be integrated into it, so it will basically be embedded in ACP going forward.

Peter Ladner: 11:07

Now you haven't stopped at Williams Lake because I know that you've been involved in some way in a motion from I think it's one of your counselors to the North Central Local Government Association asking for the Ministry of Transportation and Transit to take the lead on active transportation infrastructure on highway rights-of-way. First of all, what is the North Central Local Government Association?

Ruth Lloyd: 11:37

So the local governments in the province have different groups and North Central Local Government Association is the group representing local governments within the kind of northern half. In fact, geographically Williams Lake is not actually quite in the north but definitely fit into that demographic. So the North Central Local Government Association gets together and has a summit every year. Local leaders get together, talk about issues in the north and then a lot of those issues will then be brought forward to the Union of BC Municipalities Conference which happens every year in the fall. So that's all of the local government leaders meeting with provincial leaders every year.

Peter Ladner: 12:34

And you brought a motion. Tell us what the motion is.

Ruth Lloyd: 12:37

So one of the big barriers in a lot of communities, and absolutely especially in the north and central parts of the province, is the highway infrastructure, and so these highways comprise major throughfares. Sometimes they're the main streets of town, sometimes they create. In Williams Lake, we have Highway 20 and Highway 97, which divide different sections of our community and because those are provincial infrastructure, they cannot be changed by the municipality. So, even though we've got this active transportation network plan, we want to create a more safe, connected active transportation network that's going to help everyone get around, safely access all the amazing things we have, like our crazy, awesome mountain bike trails. But unfortunately they're all divided by these highways and the highways create major barriers, like in Williams Lake.

Ruth Lloyd: 13:45

Highway 20 is a separation between the west side of the community and the main downtown and the north side, so we've got mountain bike networks on the west side and the south side that you would need to use Highway 20 to get to if you were going to get there by bicycle, but most people feel very unsafe using that and unfortunately the city can't change that. The province has to leave that. We're asking for the province to take the lead on putting in active transportation infrastructure within those highway right-of-ways within municipalities have you tried a direct ask to the regional ministry official saying let's do this?

Peter Ladner: 14:36

Do they have the power to put some active transportation infrastructure alongside or related to the highway right away?

Ruth Lloyd: 14:47

Well, theoretically that would be who would do it, but they're not doing and I don't know why it's not being implemented. In terms of previously, the province had set a mandate the ministry of transportation it was the ministry of transportation infrastructure at the time for active transportation infrastructure to be a priority, but regionally we didn't really see that play out and there wasn't any follow-through in terms of creating, you know, ensuring that paving is happening, that ensures good, wide shoulders that are kept clean for active transportation, just minor things that would really enable it. But the counselor at the meeting with the city had just been discussing the active transportation network plan. The city was saying you know, we put all this money into it. This councillor said we've got this plan. How are we going to make sure that, you know, these highways don't continue to be this major obstacle for us? And maybe we should put a resolution forward, and so she drafted this resolution.

Ruth Lloyd: 16:05

It's Councillor Joan Flasspuller and she drafted this resolution. She's talked to the local representatives and so she has a better understanding of what the local ministry of transportation representatives can and can't do, what their barriers are, and so I think she was hoping to try and get that kind of push from the province, provincial level, to try and get everyone to say, look, these are basically our main streets. You know, you've got Townsend Burns, like we've got 14 June, you've got Houston, you've got all these. You know, chatwin, these are places where the highway is straight through the community and, you know, creates this major obstacle that really limits people in feeling safe, this major obstacle that really limits people in feeling safe.

Peter Ladner: 17:01

So you came to the conclusion that it would much help your local manager to have direction from on high to make this happen, and I would confidently say that this is the feeling of many, many communities in BC who feel frustrated. Some of them seem to depend on the passion of that local manager for cycling or not for cycling, which is a kind of a flimsy basis for building out AT infrastructure around the province. And we often hear that if there's a passion from the minister or the senior officials in the ministry that send down the ranks, that it will enable people to do this a lot more. So good luck with that and I hope it gets to the UBCM which I think is in September in Victoria this year, and the BC Cycling Coalition would like to be there.

Ruth Lloyd: 17:48

Yeah, the City of Williams Lake is going to put that resolution, a resolution forward that basically asks the province to take the leap and help make sure that active transportation infrastructure is being integrated into these municipalities. When you've got the highway going through town going through a pandemic.

Peter Ladner: 18:10

But you obviously felt that having that request amplified by support from all the other municipalities in that local government association would be helpful. So you've done that interim step. Has it gone to that association? Have they approved it?

Ruth Lloyd: 18:25

My understanding is it was passed and now and that's hopefully going to spur something in the province. But you can only try and hopefully the province will start to listen.

Peter Ladner: 18:40

So you've been doing this for several years? How many years now in Williams Lake?

Ruth Lloyd: 18:45

Well, I moved back here in 2020. And I guess we started now. I think we might have started Space for L Williams Lake in 2022.

Peter Ladner: 18:59

So let's say you've been doing this for three years. How are you feeling? Are you making you feel like you're making progress, that it's worth it, that you're going to get somewhere in the end?

Ruth Lloyd: 19:11

Oh, this is such a good question. I mean, what advocate doesn't have days where they're what am I doing? Is this even making any difference? And other days you think, oh man, this is so exciting. I mean, there's been great, great community building that's resulted, and I think that that matters. We might not have seen any actual difference in terms of there's no bike lanes happening yet, but we have. You know, we we've done a lot of things that I think have helped up the profile. I think that the response the community gave to the city you know we had over 700 people respond to our serving and that was the most the city's ever had so, um, it was, yeah, really satisfying to see that happen, and I think that the city's now has heard that this is something people want to see, especially with the mountain biking culture. Young people are out riding the trails and then parents want to know that if their kid wants to go for a mountain bike ride and they drop them off at the top of the trail, they can ride back to their house safely.

Peter Ladner: 20:30

So have you been working with the mountain? Does the mountain biking people have their own association?

Ruth Lloyd: 20:36

They do. They're the Williams Lake Cycling Club and yeah, they. You know we've tried to try and communicate and support what they're doing and they've tried to support some of what we're doing. And you know we have definitely a parallel interest on that and you know we have definitely a parallel interest on that.

Peter Ladner: 20:54

Well, speaking of parallel interest, you are coming to our Regional Active Transportation Summit in Kimberley on September 11th and 12th and you're going to be having an opportunity there for people who want to talk about getting their communities more motivated. So do you have any thoughts?

Ruth Lloyd: 21:22

Can you share any more about that and what you hope to come out of that?

Ruth Lloyd: 21:27

Yeah well, I'm really excited to get down there and get together again with all the people who are excited about active transportation.

Ruth Lloyd: 21:32

It's really just so rewarding to share knowledge and meet people who are doing the same things or similar things and share information. And when I went to the one that was last year, it was that New West it was amazing, it was so great. But I really felt like I wanted to be able to connect more with other advocates, because we just started this group in williams lake, we didn't necessarily know what we're doing. We just wanted to try and support safer cycling and safer active transportation for everyone, and I guess I was hoping to to try and connect with with more advocates, and so we wanted to create a an opportunity at this summit to just share some of what people have have done, what they've learned, their successes, their challenges and how we can kind of support each other to amplify our messages. When we're doing things like this Maybe CM resolution, for example, and other ECCC you know initiatives that they're trying to do on a provincial level how can we all kind of work together to that ship?

Peter Ladner: 22:53

well, that's a pretty good question and I don't think we're going to answer right away, except if you can make it. I'm speaking now to people listening. If they can make it to the conference september 11th, you can sign up at the bc cycling coalition website. Our early bird tickets for those listening to this podcast in July may still be available. Ruth, thank you so much for doing the podcast and for the work you're doing and setting an example, if I might say, for others to emulate and maybe get an AT plan in their community, maybe get an actual expanded continuous bike route network. That will light up the community and let people have fun and have more choices of how they get around other than that wonderful pickup truck that you own. Thanks, ruth.

Ruth Lloyd: 23:45

Oh, now I'm pegged as the pickup truck owner. Well, guess what?

Peter Ladner: 23:48

I own a vehicle too, so that's fine.

Ruth Lloyd: 23:52

Well and it's one of those things. We you know, so many of us, I think grew up riding our bikes in our neighborhoods, and you just see less and less of that in North America now, and it would be so lovely to ensure that you know younger generations are going to be able to have that choice and have that opportunity, because I think it's very transformative.

Peter Ladner: 24:15

We're all working on that. Thanks, Ruth.

Ruth Lloyd: 24:17

Thank you.

Peter Ladner: 24:26

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At peterladner at bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member. Thank you.

Transportation Engineer Allan Kindrat's groundbreaking work on the Cycle 16 multi-use path connecting Smithers and Telkwa recently earned a Gold Award from the Planning Institute of BC, recognizing two decades of persistent community advocacy finally bearing fruit.

The project represents a watershed moment for active transportation in BC. What began as a grassroots initiative championed by the Cycle 16 Trail Society has evolved into something much bigger – the first major project taken over by the Ministry of Transportation and Transit under their new Active Transportation Capital Program. With $85 million allocated across approximately 11 projects province-wide, this represents an unprecedented commitment to building dedicated cycling and pedestrian infrastructure within highway corridors. This ministerial involvement sets a promising precedent for similar initiatives across BC, including the Connect the Coast Society's efforts on the Sunshine Coast, where Kindrat now serves as project manager. Get your how-to's here!

Release Date: August 08, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show.

Peter Ladner: 0:37

As we all know, the expansion of active transportation depends heavily on safe infrastructure, and outside the denser urban areas of our province that usually means multi-use paths on longer routes that serve local commuters, recreation and, with luck, tourists. Many of them are on Ministry of Transportation and Transit rights of way. Some of them are on old rail beds, and building such routes, as we've covered on this podcast, requires First Nations buy-in, usually millions of dollars of provincial and regional funding, years of work, community advocacy, political will, but all eventually require a project manager who can actually build them. Alan Kindrat is such a person. He's a senior transportation engineer at WSP Canada and he lives with his family an extended family in Smithers where he stick-handled the construction of Cycle 16 route to Telqua, and we're going to ask him about that and other projects he's working on and just how to get these things done. Welcome, Alan.

Allan Kindrat: 1:42

Thanks, Peter. I'm excited to be here to chat with you about all the exciting work happening in the province right now.

Peter Ladner: 1:49

Well, I know your recent excitement was you just won an award for your work in Smithers. Can you tell us about?

Allan Kindrat: 1:54

that, yeah, we worked with the Regional District of Bulkley-Nachako, who is the regional district in our area, is the regional district in our area connecting the communities of Smithers and Telqua, on a application for the award earlier this year and just last month we were down in Vancouver to receive the award. It was a gold award for excellence in planning practice in small and rural areas and Cycle 16, the regional district and WSP received the award. So it was really exciting to see the work that we've done being recognized by the Planning Institute of BC.

Peter Ladner: 2:38

What was special about that work, besides the fact that it actually got done?

Allan Kindrat: 2:44

Well, there are a lot of things about Cycle 16 that are special. It spans three local governments, so the town of Smithers, the regional district of Bulkley-Nachako and the village of Telqua. So it took a lot of coordination and it was a project that was championed by a nonprofit cycle 16 trail society. Um, really, for for over 20 years, from the time it was conceived, uh, as an idea to to when the first phase of the project was built. So it, uh it did not happen overnight, but it has been extremely successful. It's been really kind of the honor of my lifetime to be a part of the project.

Peter Ladner: 3:34

Describe what's happening there right now. We're recording this right after Canada Day. Were you out there on Canada Day? Were there lots of people out there? How is it working?

Allan Kindrat: 3:43

Were you out there on Canada Day? Were there? Lots of people out there. How is it working? Yeah, maybe I'll back up just a moment and give a bit of an overview of Cycle 16, if that makes sense.

Allan Kindrat: 4:01

The project was led by the Trail Society for a number of years. The project was originally planned to be three phases, which were all within the regional district of Bulkley-Nachako's municipal boundaries, but as the project evolved over time it became a five-phase project because the town of Smithers needed to incorporate a connecting trail to it, and likewise for the village of Telqua. In 2020, the first phase of the cycle 16 project was funded and in 2023 construction on that was complete. And that was a pretty pivotal moment for the project because it was no longer just an idea. It was something tangible that people could actually go out and ride.

Allan Kindrat: 4:47

Just last month, the next phase of the project was opened to the public and that's the Town of Smithers piece. So we've now got two operational phases of the five-phase project and last year the Ministry of Transportation actually took over the project. So it was a project that was being led by Cycle 16, with the regional district and other local governments agreeing to own and operate the pieces within their municipal boundaries. But last year the ministry announced a new funding program, the BC Active Transportation Capital Program, and they selected Cycle 16 as one of their projects that would be funded under this program.

Peter Ladner: 5:29

Alan, I just want to get clear. This sounds like a pretty big breakthrough for the ministry. Can you tell us how much of a precedent this sets and how that is being seen in other places?

Allan Kindrat: 5:42

Yeah, so the Ministry of Transportation and Transit's Active Transportation Capital Program that was announced last year, to my understanding, is the first of its kind, not only in BC but also nationwide. I was at the Transportation Association of Canada's conference last fall, and there was a lot of interest from transportation ministries in other provinces in what BC is doing here, and so I believe that they're viewed as a national leader in active transportation capital projects. So not only is the province building and expanding their highway network, but they're now committing substantial money to building out active transportation corridors in their highway rights-of-way.

Peter Ladner: 6:29

Does that mean new highway projects will automatically have multi-use paths or corridors involved in that project, or does that mean taking existing highways and adding multi-use paths?

Allan Kindrat: 6:45

It won't mean automatically that new highways get multi-use paths, but I believe that there has been a policy within the ministry for a number of years now that any major highway expansion looks closely at including active transportation elements. But the capital program is specifically for active transportation projects within their highway corridor and so they are standalone projects, such as the Cycle 16 project, and they're not necessarily just multi-use paths. They can be protected bike lanes, they can be other forms of active transportation infrastructure, but multi-use paths are what we're seeing most commonly, connecting communities.

Peter Ladner: 7:25

So if other communities are planning on doing something like this, is this where they should eventually aim to have the ministry take over these projects.

Allan Kindrat: 7:34

Yeah, that's a very interesting question. Working closely with Cycle 16 over the years, we all believed that this was something that should be the Ministry of Transportation and Transit's responsibility. The multi-use path is within the highway corridor and it is a form of transportation, and so we really viewed that ministry as being ultimately responsible for it. But it's not something that the ministry had done before.

Peter Ladner: 8:03

So this was the first time the ministry had taken ownership of one of these projects.

Allan Kindrat: 8:08

To my understanding, yes, the capital program is funding active transportation projects in their highway corridor for the first time as major works projects.

Peter Ladner: 8:18

Can you say anything about what it took to bring the ministry into the picture? I know that they've been spending a lot of money on active transportation projects in different ways, but if this is a new way, was there something about this project that attracted them? Is it something that you and the advocates on the ground had to do to bring them in?

Allan Kindrat: 8:37

Yeah, the Cycle 16 Trail Society and WSP, as their project manager, worked closely with the ministry for a number of years leading up to the construction of the first phase. Because the project is in their right of way, they have final say on the design and whether or not to permit the trail in their right of way. Originally, the plan was to have the trail constructed and the regional district would have a license of occupation to operate the trail within the highway right-of-way, and so it took very close coordination with the ministry to ensure that the project could be approved and constructed and ultimately operated in their right of way. Now, one thing that we've been very fortunate about in Smithers is having the support of the local ministry district. They have been absolutely fantastic to work with. They are local cyclists and advocates themselves, and so having the support from the local ministry district was a really big deal for the project when the ministry announced the funding for the capital program last year it was $9.3 million for the remaining phases of cycle 16.

Allan Kindrat: 10:04

$6.3 million for the remaining phases of cycle 16. I believe they announced $85 million total spread across about 11 projects in the province.

Peter Ladner: 10:13

You were saying, when they announced it, that signaled the final stage of funding it and readiness to finish it?

Allan Kindrat: 10:21

That's right. So prior to them announcing the funding, we were working closely with the regional district, the town and Cycle 16 to apply for grants to fund the construction of the remaining phases. We had a lot of momentum with the project, but we really were at a point where we're just waiting for the right grant to move forward with the next phase. And with the ministry announcing the funding, it's now taken all of the uncertainty away from ensuring that the project gets complete, because the funding is in place now and we're working through the final stages of design on the remaining phases. Phase three of the Cycle 16 Trail was actually put out to tender a little over a month ago and has now been awarded to a local contractor, and construction will begin later this month.

Peter Ladner: 11:13

We hear this a lot, that the involvement of the ministry depends quite heavily on the local ministry manager, and would you say that that's something that communities have to accept or work with? If they have a manager, for example, who's not as supportive, are projects like these even likely or possible?

Allan Kindrat: 11:40

It's a great question. I would like to believe that they're still possible, but you certainly have more of an uphill battle if you don't have the buy-in from your local ministry district. They are key to any development within the highway right-of-way, which many of these projects rely upon heavily.

Peter Ladner: 12:01

So there's no overriding policy that's coming down from the top in the ministry that requires all these district managers to be on side with projects like these.

Allan Kindrat: 12:13

Not that I'm aware of. This is a very new thing for the ministry, for them to be taking over these projects and leading them, and so I think that they're still working out what those policies are in terms of operations and maintenance of active transportation infrastructure in their highway right-of-way, how they manage the maintenance of these new trails right-of-way how they manage the maintenance of these new trails.

Peter Ladner: 12:37

Well, I'm pretty excited about this because I know from my experience in the city of Vancouver, when the city engineers first figured out how to build a bike route, it took a lot of engineering, back and forth and figuring, and once they got it, then the next bike routes were way easier. Would you say that would be the case in this example, that once they figured out this right-of-way active transportation corridor, then the next ones will be easier?

Allan Kindrat: 13:09

I believe so. Yeah, and I think Cycle 16 and other projects in the province have began to set a bit of a precedence, and it's exciting to see that the ministry has taken this one over, because it gives hope to many other projects throughout the province that are in similar situations.

Peter Ladner: 13:29

Let's talk about one of those projects, because I know you've been hired by the Connect the Coast Society on the Sunshine Coast. What are you working on there and what is your role and how's it going?

Allan Kindrat: 13:43

My role on that project is similar to my role was on Cycle 16. I've been hired as their project manager to help liaise with local governments and ministry agencies with local governments and ministry agencies and they've also hired us to do the conceptual design for their priority segment, which is from the edge of the town of Gibsons to Lower Road. It's approximately three kilometers and the first section of that is within the town of Gibsons and the final two segments are within the Sunshine Coast Regional District. So it has a lot of similarities to the Cycle 16 project, where it's spanning multiple local governments and the infrastructure is within the highway, right-of-way. And so right now we're developing the conceptual design to help prove the feasibility of the project, and we also have a significant component in stakeholder engagement, and so we were actually down in Gibsons in February, meeting with the local governments as well as many of the elected officials to discuss the project, to get input and feedback on our design and to strategize how best to move the project forward.

Peter Ladner: 15:11

Now the three kilometers. Is that towards the ferry at Langdale or in some other direction? It's actually towards Sechelt. Oh, okay, going the other way, Right, yeah, and what are your challenges? Progress reports on that one.

Allan Kindrat: 15:29

Well, the Highway 101 corridor is extremely challenging along the Sunshine Coast is extremely challenging. Along the Sunshine Coast it's generally pretty narrow and there are a lot of utilities and properties and topographical constraints, drainages that make designing a multi-use path within the Highway Right-of-Way very challenging and expensive.

Peter Ladner: 15:55

How about raising the money? You mentioned that you were hired by the local society, so the local advocates had to come up with the money to pay you.

Allan Kindrat: 16:03

That's right. Yeah, so they rely heavily on grants as did Cycle 16, to fund these early phases of the project, and what their role is is really championing the project and helping prove out the feasibility of it and developing a social license for the project. The ultimate goal is that they can take the project to a stage where local governments are fully in support of it and see the value that the project will offer to the community and eventually take it over. On that note, there's kind of two different paths that the project could take. Path one would be the local governments choose to own and operate the trail. They would also be responsible for funding the construction of it. And path two would be that the Ministry of Transportation and Transit would take it over, which is what happened with the Cycle 16 project. So the Connect the Coast Society is pursuing both paths and working towards trying to to find an owner for it.

Peter Ladner: 17:23

Alan, it sounds like you are technically an engineer. I mean, you are an engineer, but your job involves a certain amount of if I can call it politics, of bringing people together and coming to consensus on roots funding and all of that stuff. Is that a big part of what you're doing?

Allan Kindrat: 17:40

It's funny, I don't think of it as politics, but there is certainly an element of that. Certainly, we do a lot of stakeholder engagement, and so building those relationships is key. Yeah, I bring a few elements, I guess, to the project. I'm a professional project manager so I have good experience on what it takes to deliver projects, but I also have a lot of experience in stakeholder engagement and helping build support for the project. And then I've also got the technical experience of a transportation engineer, so I understand a lot of the technical challenges that go along with projects like this.

Peter Ladner: 18:26

I imagine understanding the technical challenges would be pretty darn important, because it's easy to say, oh, we should just put a route along here, without realizing we've got to cross all these intersections and drainages and sewer pipes, whatever. Realizing you've got to cross all these intersections and drainages and sewer pipes, whatever. The one in Smithers, the Cycle 16 project, you said, took 20 years but it culminated in a breakthrough funding initiative and responsibility by the Ministry of Transportation and Transit. Do other advocates have to expect to wait 20 years for their projects to come to fruition, or do you think?

Allan Kindrat: 19:04

we're now on a much faster track because of some of this recent work that you've been involved with.

Allan Kindrat: 19:17

Yeah, I do think that some of the groundwork that has been done on projects like Cycle 16 will help us move more quickly on some of these projects, and I do think that the province itself is in a different place today than it was 20 years ago when it comes to prioritizing active transportation and capital projects, and so and I think we're in an exciting place where we're seeing a lot more funding being allocated to these types of projects.

Allan Kindrat: 19:40

With that said, it certainly does take a lot of effort to get these projects to the point where local governments or the ministry are willing to take them over, and having an organization, or multiple organizations, champion a project is really important. That was certainly the key to success for Cycle 16. I think it's the only reason the Sunshine Coast project is making progress as well, because the Connect the Coast Society is championing the project. Hopefully, one day we're in a place where that's not necessary, where boards of volunteers don't have to dedicate their time to ensure that these important projects get built, but that certainly is a key piece of the projects in today's environment.

Peter Ladner: 20:33

Well, we're working hard through the BC Cycling Coalition and this podcast to help these advocates learn how to do it. But I certainly appreciate your point that it does seem a bit weird. You don't hear local advocates having to get together and raise funding for the consultation on building a highway interchange, for example. It just gets done Now with the ministry getting involved. How are they measuring success? What is their desired outcome? And is there data being collected, say on the Cycle 16 path, to prove that money was well spent?

Allan Kindrat: 21:04

Yeah, we've got eco-counters, which are bi-directional pedestrian cyclist counters, installed on each phase of the project so that we can collect data on the usage, and so that is something that the province is collecting on all their projects to show what the return on investment was for the total capital investment versus the total usage in the end. So far, cycle 16 has been getting a lot of use, which is really exciting to see. We've got a local bakery at the end of phase one, and so every Saturday they've got a what they call a bikery event. Um, and we see upwards of 350 pedestrians and cyclists commuting out to the, to the bikery every Saturday Wonderful.

Peter Ladner: 21:53

You got, you said you. You told me you had two, two kids, two sons, five and seven. That's right. Have you been to the bikery? I have, yeah, and what's it like? What's the feeling out there? You must feel pretty good about this coming to fruition because of you, and here you are with your friends and relatives.

Allan Kindrat: 22:11

It's amazing. I just yeah. I feel very fortunate to have been a part of this project and to see it contribute to our community and to see my kids use it and hopefully, one day, their kids. I never expected to design these types of projects for a living. It really was the Cycle 16 project and the opportunity that was given to me that put my career on a path of almost exclusively designing these projects, so it's really neat. I feel quite fortunate for it.

Peter Ladner: 22:40

Are there other people in your organization and around the province who have this expertise and are also getting involved in this? Because the way you've described it, it would sound like fingers crossed. This is a growing employment opportunity, let's say, and opportunity for companies like yours.

Allan Kindrat: 22:58

Absolutely. Yeah, we've got a growing team of transportation engineers that are designing trails like this throughout the province. Wsp has a very large landscape architecture team and transportation planning team and so they contribute important components to to projects like this and they work a lot with local governments on active transportation network plans and, yeah, it's an exciting space.

Peter Ladner: 23:27

Before we let you go. Are there people in Smithers, where you're most which is what you're most familiar with who you wouldn't have thought would care or be involved with this, who have find themselves now supporting it, now that it's there, and they've experienced how, let's say wonderful it is.

Allan Kindrat: 23:47

Absolutely yeah. So before the first phase of cycle 16 was constructed there was certainly some opposition to the project Maybe not a good use of taxpayer dollars or expectations that it wouldn't get a whole lot of use. And that piece of trail has been in operation for two years now and we see a ton of use on the trail and a lot of people commute to town and they're driving by the first phase of cycle 16 and seeing their friends or their grandkids biking on the trail. And it certainly has flipped the perception and support stage because people can see it getting used and can see it acting as a safe means of transportation for many, which riding on the highway shoulder was pretty scary and continues to be scary for a lot of people, and so seeing a separated bike path where kids and families can ride is pretty special.

Peter Ladner: 24:55

Fantastic. Do you have any other advice for other organizations that might be interested in this kind of project things?

Allan Kindrat: 25:03

they should get ready before they even call someone like you yeah, um, in my experience there's more support in communities for projects like this than most people realize, and so it's drumming up that support and building a social license for the project, and that does take a lot of effort, but it is a key step in advancing a project. And so if you have a project in your community that would help improve the community, then you need to work with some of the local organizations and build support for it. There's a lot of grant funding out there to help advance projects like this. Grants from where. There are grants that the province has through the BC Active Transportation Program program. They offer, I believe, $50,000 per year for active transportation network plans and up to $500,000 for capital projects. There are federal grants and then there's lots of local organizations that grant money to projects like this.

Peter Ladner: 26:12

So, alan, will we see you at the Regional Active Transportation Conference in Kimberley September 10th to 12th. So, alan, will we see you at the regional active transportation conference in kimberly september 10th to 12th yes absolutely.

Peter Ladner: 26:19

I'm looking forward to it. Fantastic, so people who come to that conference will have a chance to ask you more questions about these projects and, uh, hopefully advance them in their own communities. Thank you so much for your advice and we look forward to following your progress on connect the coast and wherever else you might be lending your talents. Thanks, alan, thanks peter. You've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the bc cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. Peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

Find out more about Cycle 16 (Smithers to Telkwa) HERE

Find out more about Sunshine Coast: Connect the Coast Trail HERE

Visit Allan Kindrat HERE

Learn about B.C. Active Transportation Infrastructure Grants (and find out which projects have received them) HERE

What does it take to transform personal tragedy into meaningful policy change? Eleanor McMahon's story provides a masterclass in effective advocacy that transcends political divisions while saving lives on our roads.

After losing her husband Greg — an Ontario Provincial Police officer — to a careless driver in 2006, McMahon channeled her grief into founding the Share the Road Cycling Coalition. With her background working for two Prime Ministers and her extensive political connections, she embarked on a methodical journey to research international cycling advocacy models before creating an organization to fill the gaps she discovered in Ontario. The results have been life changing and life saving, and carry huge ramifications for cycling safety in BC.

Release Date: July 18, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today we're moving out of BC on this podcast for the first time to welcome Eleanor McMahon, a powerhouse lobbyist for safer cycling in Ontario, canada and indeed the world. She's a former press secretary to Jean Chrétien, she's a former Ontario Minister of Tourism, culture and Sport, she's a former CEO of the TransCanada Trail and today she is the chair of the board of an organization she founded which interests us the most, which is the Share the Road Cycling Coalition in Ontario. Welcome, eleanor.

Eleanor McMahon: 1:09

Hi, peter, thanks for having me.

Peter Ladner: 1:11

Perhaps you could just share with our listeners the reasons why you have found yourself to be a cycling advocate in the first place.

Eleanor McMahon: 1:20

I've ridden my bike most of my life and I grew up the youngest of seven children in a family in Windsor, Ontario, and back then, certainly in those days, we walked everywhere, took the bus, rode our bikes everywhere, and bikes were freedom, just like today. And my parents certainly only had one car so I wasn't getting a ride anywhere. So, hoof it, take the bus, get a ride with someone or, gosh, take your bike were our choices of transportation. We were multimodal back then, just like most people are today. So, as someone who loved to ride her bike and and you know, it was a bit of a lifelong passion and someone who did triathlons later in life, the sad part of this story is that my late husband, with whom I used to enjoy riding a lot we lived in a part of Ontario because he was an Ontario provincial police officer that was fairly remote and very rural and so we could go on a three-hour and not see a car, Uh and um.

Eleanor McMahon: 2:25

When he got transferred to the greater Toronto area in Burlington, where I live now, um, it was much more congested, obviously much higher dense, densely populated. We'd both lived in the Toronto area previously. So in fact, Greg and I met when he when he was, uh, uh, on on duty in the Toronto area, and so we, we were ready for that. But, honestly, uh, cycling in in a much more densely populated, higher traffic volume area was something that it took some getting used to. And, uh, Greg was often saying to me you know, make sure you're safe. Um, we, when we went on rides together, even though he was much more powerful than me, he would ride behind me to make sure that I was okay. So, obviously, being a police officer, he had a lot of concerns about safety and wanting to make sure that we were both safe.

Eleanor McMahon: 3:12

And sadly, that didn't help him because on June, the 6th 2006, he went out for a training ride on his bike. We were training for a triathlon that we'd entered, which is something we love to do, just not seriously. We weren't Olympic athletes or anything, but it was something we loved staying fit and swimming and running and cycling. And Greg had just bought a new bike. It was the month of June, as I mentioned, He'd just got his tax return refund from the government and went out and bought a bike. He was ready to get a new one and very excited, so he took that money that was burning a hole in his pocket and off he went to this great store and bought a bike and the last words I said were I love you and I'll talk to you later. And he was hit by a careless driver just north of our home here in Burlington while on his training ride and he died in hospital later that night.

Peter Ladner: 4:13

I'm so sorry to hear, Eleanor. I know that triggered you to start the Share the Road Cycling Coalition. What is the Share the Road Cycling Coalition?

Eleanor McMahon: 4:23

If I may, it is a good question because after Greg was killed, I I decided that I um as I um grieved for him, um, and I do come from a very large family of seven kids and um fairly wide network, and so many people said you know, how can we help? And I got lots of calls from politicians because, as you pointed out, in my early career I worked for two prime ministers and so I had a pretty vast political network. And the premier of Ontario called me I knew him, I still know him, dalton McGinty and asked what could he do. And I said I need you to stay in touch with me because I don't know what it is, but we're going to do something because Greg's death was so tragic and preventable and silly really. So all of it's so silly and preventable and you know, this was someone who I never thought would die, would have his life taken doing something he loved. He was in a very risky profession for which he was highly trained and I never worried about him. Risky profession for which he was highly trained and I never worried about him. But somehow there he was enjoying his training ride and overtaken carelessly by a motorist who had several convictions for driving under suspension. We'll get to that later.

Eleanor McMahon: 5:37

But as I began to cope with Greg's death, I started you know I mentioned I got several phone calls from people who wanted to help. But I also started to really think what could we do? And started to do some research, peter, about what existed, and then I realized there really wasn't any cycling advocacy organization in Ontario that did the kind of work that I thought needed doing. But before I did anything I needed to do more research. So I traveled internationally. I spent some time in the United States. I started looking at jurisdictions that had the kind of legislative constructs that we desperately needed in Ontario and really started to learn a lot. Went to Europe my city, burlington, is twinned with Appledorn in Holland. We all know that the Netherlands is really so advanced in terms of cycling, and so I started spending time in Europe and developed a network of colleagues at the European Cyclist Federation in the UK and mainland Europe France, germany, italy, netherlands and really started talking to as many people as I could about how do you do things where you live and started to learn about all of these programs. And then I spent some time here in Ontario as well and talked to Canadians. I did travel to BC, met with folks at the BC Cycling Coalition and had a chat with them and, of course, velo Quebec our dear friends in Quebec and started to really talk to people here in Ontario.

Eleanor McMahon: 7:04

And the reason I did that, peter, was because I wanted to make sure that if we started something, we were really doing it as a result of what was needed and filling gaps, and it was more research. So I was invited to give talks and I would go to talk to city council and do deputations. I would speak to cycling advocates and I traveled around Ontario and I learned about what we had at the time and really what we didn't. And so I asked people if we build this, will you come? Will you support it financially? Will you? Because, on a practical level, as you know, non-for-profits need funding and what kind of organization should it be and what do you think we should be addressing as a priority?

Eleanor McMahon: 7:44

And then was getting very encouraged by what I saw, which was a huge hole. As someone who'd spent most of her life either in political work or in non-for-profit advocacy work, I realized that a lot of what was needed at the community level were savvy advocates. A lot of the people that were in communities were lovely and very passionate, but didn't know what I knew. Didn't know how to influence better outcomes, how to work with politicians or how to build community, and so that was one of the big areas of focus that we had and we still have, which is building a better advocacy community and equipping advocates with the tools to be successful.

Peter Ladner: 8:27

Can you give me an example of how that would work, and let's pick one community that needed a lift.

Eleanor McMahon: 8:33

Yeah, sure, I'm thinking of Halliburton, which is a rural community in the Muskoka area. They'll kill me for saying that because they're not Muskoka. They're adjacent to Muskoka.

Peter Ladner: 8:45

Our listeners won't know the difference. It's okay.

Eleanor McMahon: 8:49

They had a really great group of advocates there. I was invited by a woman who'd heard about me and wanted me to give a talk, and she worked in public health there, and so I went up and I this again. They said would you come? We have this evening open. We'd love you to come. So I came.

Eleanor McMahon: 9:06

I spent the after the talk, we had a social time and I talked to everybody in the room. Peter and I asked them what do you do? So what would you like to see? And, just really good thing, I'm so outgoing. I talked to as many people as I could about. So how do things work here? Tell me, did you know that this is happening elsewhere in the province, which was another really interesting opportunity for us.

Eleanor McMahon: 9:27

It was quite clear that municipalities weren't aware that there was progress in other places and there were things going on, and that was a big disconnect. But really, at the advocacy level, just understanding how people were trying to influence outcomes and not being successful and I could see them getting. They're hitting their heads against the wall and getting frustrated, and human behavior dictates that when you get frustrated, we're not at our best. I can say that I'm not perfect. I get frustrated all the time, and when I get frustrated, I get crabby, and when I get crabby, I don't really show up as my best self, and I don't mean to make fun or make light of these issues, because our safety on the road is deadly serious. And what I saw, though, were a bunch of people who had been frustrated over the years and not able to make the change that they wanted to see, and so meeting with them really and talking to them about how to be effective led to some more formalization a lobby day at our legislature and all party cycling caucus, which we can talk about, an advocacy toolkit that we developed online for people to share to really help them to be more effective, and some webinars on training advocates to really teach them about.

Eleanor McMahon: 10:40

You know, as I often say, you know, I remember this one woman who was lovely, and her partner joined her, and the two of them were quite, quite frustrated, and he said to me oh, I'm just so mad, you know, I can't, we can't get anywhere, it's so frustrating. I said, well, tell me, what have you done? Whoa, we, we went to this thing and we did, and they were really not setting themselves up for success. So I said. You know, as human beings it's normally an okay to get frustrated, but you know you don't like it when people punch you in the nose and poke you in the eyes. So politicians don't like that either.

Eleanor McMahon: 11:10

And your job is to make friends with as many people as you can and bring as many people along as you can, because there's a lot of joy in cycling. So your joy you're, you're. You are the ambassador of joy. So your job is to get people on side as quickly and as often as possible, and it's going to take a while, but trust me, it's worth it.

Eleanor McMahon: 11:28

I did the same thing with a fellow in Sault Ste Marie who, years later, after the mayor, said to me oh, we can't deal with that fellow, he's so angry all the time. And I met the mayor at the Association of Municipalities of Ontario meeting and he said we can't. His name is Andre. He won't mind me talking about this lovely guy. He came up to me years later and said you know what? Your advice to me was a game changer. I said really? He said yeah, you just told me to be fair and friendly and be nice to people and show up and have all my facts and try to make friends. And boy, did it ever change him? He said cause I'm a Francophone and I'm feisty and I'm an emotional person. And I got mad and I said all those things are okay, but save those for your friends and family or your pals over a beer. When you're in public and you're talking about cycling, don't forget that you're competing against a lot of really professionally, highly trained lobbyists and other people who want exactly what you want, and so the best thing that you can do is be fair and friendly and say hello and can we talk and then just carry on as you would in any professional setting. So those are some examples of some of the work that we did.

Eleanor McMahon: 12:32

And then again, as I said, we began to realize that this was a big area of business for us and we began to raise funding to do these on a project basis and we started training advocates en masse. And whenever I went to a municipality, I would meet with the council and meet with the councillors, and most municipalities in Ontario anyway have a bicycle advisory committee of some sort, and I was on the bicycle advisory committee in my own community because I wanted to see how it worked, and I would meet with as many people as possible. So when I went to a city I would give a talk usually, and then spend the rest of my time talking to decision makers, influencers. I'd shop, I'd go to the bike shop and talk to people there and really start to spread the word organically about our organization.

Eleanor McMahon: 13:19

And again, as many times as we could, ask people their opinion how are we doing? What should we be doing that we're not doing. And then, peter, once I spent some time continuing to talk to people, we realized that there was room for an organization, and so we incorporated and, as a non-for-profit organization, appointed a board of directors and then started grant writing and hiring staff and building a good strategic plan, which each non-for-profit should do. Everybody knows that. And so we got some funding to do a really robust strategic plan and talked to as many people as we could again about where they wanted to see us in five years and then got to work at the Ontario Legislature, meeting with politicians and with bureaucrats and talking to them about what we needed to see.

Peter Ladner: 14:09

So run me through some of your. You've had some remarkable successes. Can you just give us a quick thumbnail of some of the things that you implemented through this organization?

Eleanor McMahon: 14:19

So the first piece of legislation that we passed was in Greg's memory. I went to the commissioner of the OPP, the Ontario Provincial Police, and I asked him if he would help me to lobby for a change in the Highway Traffic Act to deal with people the fellow that killed my husband. So he had five convictions for driving under suspension, four convictions for driving without a license, $15,000 in unpaid fines and two months after he killed my husband, he hit someone else and he was a commercial driver. Months after he killed my husband, he hit someone else and he was a commercial driver. So you can imagine, especially as the spouse of a police officer. Cops are notorious for coming home from shift and saying, oh my gosh, and telling you how was your day, how was your day, that's what, that's what. That's what spouses do. And, um, I would hear the frustration in Greg's voice. He was a kind and lovely man, but he would get frustrated at his own inability to deal with the lack of safety that he saw on the road. And that spirit and that dedication and that determination was something that I carried with me, and so when I started doing research on legislation in other provinces, I realized that Alberta and Saskatchewan had legislation that dealt with people who habitually drive under suspension, and people who habitually drive under suspension have a propensity to take risks, and so I was fairly certain that those are the type of people that probably cyclists need to be concerned about. Those are the type of people that probably cyclists need to be concerned about.

Eleanor McMahon: 15:58

And so, again, I went to the commissioner and I laid out a business case for changing the legislation, after doing all my research, and I said we have the busiest roads in the country. We don't have this legislation. Alberta and Saskatchewan have it. We need to have it. Here's what I'd like to do. Would you help me? And he said, yes, I will absolutely help you. And I said, okay, I will absolutely help you. And I said, okay, I'll do the politics and the media, you do the public service. And he said, okay, you're on.

Eleanor McMahon: 16:27

And so, less than a year later, we had Greg's law, which heightened the penalties for people who drive habitually under suspension, three quarters of whom are driving still, which is really not great, because if you get hit by someone who's under suspension, they don of whom are driving still, which is really not great, because if you get hit by someone who's under suspension, they don't have insurance. Now, it may be different where you are because you have a different regime of insurance, but in Ontario, if you're under suspension, you're not insured, and if you hit someone, that just adds to the tragedy. So that's the first law that we did. So Greg's law was passed and it went into effect in 2009. And that was our first piece of legislation, so that that this, this, led to bigger and better things, but that was the first thing we did.

Peter Ladner: 17:14

We left off. You were talking about Greg's law and what it would do. What are some of the other successes that Share the Road Cycling Coalition has had?

Eleanor McMahon: 17:25

In 2009, we started the Ontario Bike Summit, and this was because we realized that municipalities weren't sharing best practices about cycling and there was no forum to do that or mechanism to do it, so we decided to create one.

Eleanor McMahon: 17:38

We also wanted a forum for political conversations and advocacy and to allow advocates the opportunity to learn from each other and municipalities to learn from each other and to invite municipal, federal sorry, provincial ministers to come and join us and to hear what was going on, because nothing was happening provincially.

Eleanor McMahon: 17:59

And in parallel, we were lobbying at Queen's Park and starting to make traction with some of the public policy work that we needed. But the Ontario Bike Summit was important for one other reason as I had started to work and lobby at the provincial level, I realized that there was no cycling strategy in Ontario and I knew that there was no way that the officials were going to do that. And, to be fair, when Bob Ray was briefly premier in Ontario, there was a cycling strategy, but that had been 20 years prior and there had been nothing done since. And I knew that if we were going to get that done, we had to do it ourselves. And I knew that if we were going to get that done. We had to do it ourselves. So I raised some money and I hired a pollster and we started doing extensive research and we reached out to as many people who would talk to us law enforcement municipalities we went to AMO, they gave us their list and so we did a big survey.

Peter Ladner: 18:48

What is AMO?

Eleanor McMahon: 18:51

The Association of Municipalities of Ontario. I think you probably have a similar construct, Peter, having been a municipal politician yourself.

Peter Ladner: 18:57

UBC, yeah, yeah.

Eleanor McMahon: 18:58

And so we went to AMO and we said would you allow us to do a survey of your members? And they said yes. So we took all that survey data and we wrote a fairly extensive report when Ontario Bikes, ontario Benefits. And that public policy document, which called for extensive changes across an array of ministries in the Ontario government, laid the groundwork for the first Ontario cycling strategy in Ontario four years later. So after we wrote that report which I wrote in BC, by the way, during the Vancouver Olympics in 2010, I stayed with my friend in Vancouver and I wrote that report, I took all the research and data and I pulled it together. And then I walked into the office of the Minister of Transportation who was later the Premier, kathleen Wynne, and I said here is a comprehensive look at cycling from people that you care about Police, law enforcement, municipalities, public health, cycling advocates and citizens across Ontario. Here's what they want their Ontario government to do, and you're not doing it and you need to do it. And here it is, here it is, you don't have to do another thing. And she said right.

Eleanor McMahon: 20:06

I came down from that meeting and on my way down, the Deputy Minister of Transportation was in the elevator by happenstance, and he said so I hear we're doing an Ontario cycling strategy. I said, well, good news travels fast. The minister had already, in the time that it took me to get to the elevator, actioned into the deputy that we were going to be embracing an opportunity to do a cycling strategy in Ontario, with any inherent tourism benefits, by the way. So we didn't forget about the economic economic side of cycling which, as you know, peter, is so important. That was another success. We laid the groundwork for a cycling strategy and at the ontario bike summit we amalgamated everyone and said we're going to do this, this strategy, and we want your help.

Eleanor McMahon: 20:47

And then, a number of months later, less than a year, we did a press conference, conference in Ontario and Toronto and we released the results and we showed everyone this is what Ontario needs and this is what they don't have. And the government sent an MPP to comment favorably on the with the media there, glenn Murray, who was later my colleague in cabinet, to comment very positively. He was Toronto Centre, so the largest number of cyclists in the country, aside from Vancouver and Montreal, live in Toronto and so Glenn, being a cyclist himself, said, yeah, I'm in. So that started some really great momentum provincially for us. And then, three years later, we had the first Ontario Cycling Strategy. But there's a story there too. But I'm going to let you ask me another question. So that was another early win. That was another early win.

Peter Ladner: 21:40

Could you briefly describe the impact of the cycling strategy? What difference did it make having that strategy versus not having it?

Eleanor McMahon: 21:49

Game-changing. I mean it started to really demonstrate the opportunities inherent in the provincial government playing a much greater role. It also showed them that people that they cared about cared about it. Not just cycling, not just cyclists, as if we didn't matter. We do.

Eleanor McMahon: 22:05

But I went to people that they listened to municipal leaders, law enforcement, public health, law enforcement, public health. When you had those people saying it and you start to build civic society around your argument, you can't you know, politicians can't say no to that. So we put together a report that was based on feedback and interventions from those people that government cared about. And that's how we got their attention and they started working right away to build some capacity within the army. Because I was, I was meeting with mto, I was meeting with the ministry of transportation, I was getting nowhere, um, and I actually had and and they're not bad people, they just they just needed someone to nudge them along, peter, and that's what we did well, you're painting a picture that there's all the support for cycling from the municipalities, the health authorities, and we all know that and have heard that, but and imagine that sometimes in our mind to be more than it is.

Peter Ladner: 23:01

And yet today in ontario, um, that doesn't seem to be calling the shots in from the provincial government. They seem to have turned on cyclists. How are you responding to that and how is that affecting these initiatives?

Eleanor McMahon: 23:19

When we launched the first Ontario Cycling Strategy in 2013 and then I was invited to join the government in 2014,. Our work really escalated from there, because then I got into cabinet shortly after that and the Premier invited me to do much more change, which we did. We started to operationalize the ontario cycling strategy and really, really drive it home and and address the things that were called for, and we held ourselves to account. Based on that that feedback that we'd have from citizens, people said this is what we want you to do, and we started doing it and which were?

Peter Ladner: 23:47

what were those?

Eleanor McMahon: 23:47

things, um, invest in infrastructure, pass more changes to the highway traffic act, including a one meter safe passing law, which ont. Ontario was the second province in Canada to do and really start to hone in on the economic impacts of cycling tourism and embrace that which we did and which, as when I was tourism minister, I did the first Ontario cycling tourism strategy in the history of the province, and the Ontario cycling route, which is now almost finished. The province and the Ontario cycling route, which is now almost finished. So so, yes, the current government has taken a step back. However, governments don't last forever. I think they're making a huge mistake. They know that. But we are working quietly and behind the scenes to mobilize, to make our voices heard in a in in the kind of behind the scenes, to mobilize, to make our voices heard in the kind of behind the scenes way.

Eleanor McMahon: 24:36

We are an organization that works proactively and productively with government and we made sure, peter, that cycling remains nonpartisan. If we take a partisan approach, then we're no better than the people we point fingers at and say don't make cycling partisan. People's lives should never be a political argument. Don't politicize cycling for your own benefit. And so we shouldn't either. And so we work across party lines with everybody in the legislature and, yes, there are members of the government caucus who have quietly said to me I don't support what the premier is doing. And so we have friends on all sides of the legislature and we're mobilizing and the mayors. We just had our Ontario Bike Summit. A panel of mayors said resoundingly that the best thing that the government can do for us is more cycling infrastructure funding. So we're clear on what our lobbying strategy is, because our stakeholders and partners have told us what it needs to be.

Eleanor McMahon: 25:32

But the fact is that we have a majority government in Ontario right now. We have a premier who has a decidedly 1950s view of the municipalities and he's fighting old battles when he was a councillor at the City of Toronto when his brother was mayor and he's also got a very, I suspect, peter. He politicizes things because that's who he is and he's got a very antiquated sense of who cyclists are and what they are. He's decided that cyclists are Birkenstock-wearing, cappuccino-sipping liberals and NDPers and those people don't vote for him anyway. So it's our job to mobilize civil society and say wait a second, that's not right.

Eleanor McMahon: 26:13

And our public polling, peter which we do because polling influences outcomes tell us that 87% of Ontarians are cyclists and motorists at the same time. So it's a false paradigm to enter into this you versus me thing because it doesn't exist. So we call BS on that every chance we get, peter, because it's simply not the case that it's you versus me. And people who create that false paradigm and that construct aren't interested in solving problems. Well, it's the government's job to solve problems. That's why they're there. And so you know, I think there's some. We're making some some, you know, behind the scenes headway and we're continuing to keep cycling alive in a very positive way, because governments don't last forever.

Peter Ladner: 26:58

What is the role of the all party cycling caucus that you have in Ontario?

Eleanor McMahon: 27:04

It's a great question. So it is a common ground forum is a place where people from all sides of the legislature it's co-chaired, by the way, by Mike Schreiner, who's the leader of the Green Party in Ontario, and Mary Margaret McMahon no relation a Liberal MPP in Toronto and who's a cyclist, and both of them are and we have chosen an NDP member, catherine McKinney, who's also a member of our caucus, and we are working very hard to get someone from the government caucus Again. We know that we have people within caucus that are sympathetic, and so it's like I say about everything Peter, the train's leaving the station. If you're not on it, you can always join us later on. It's okay.

Eleanor McMahon: 27:47

You know it's okay when you see us having fun without you, then you can join, because we're meeting over the summer with the members of the caucus and we're devising our legislative strategy for the fall. So we've got some private members bills that we're'm bringing that back to Ontario because we need to have a nonpartisan forum to really have a fact-based, evidence-based conversation that's non-political, and our conversations are all about finding common ground, peter and fact-based, by the way, and evidence-based, not political. There's no room for politics. It gets checked at the door.

Peter Ladner: 28:49

Okay, I have a question for you about evidence. You brought in a one meter safe passing distance. We now have that in BC one meter when you're traveling under 50K, and 1.5 meters, which people are always surprised when I tell them that's the width of a queen-size mattress. Have you got any evidence that that has made a difference and how are you getting that enforced?

Eleanor McMahon: 29:13

Evidence? I don't know, I'd have to ask my friends in law enforcement about that. Second, as officers in places like Toronto will tell you, it's just helpful to have the charge on the books, and if someone is careless or is aggressive towards a cyclist, then the charge is there for them to leverage. Right If it wasn't there. I mean if it wasn't there. And it's also a great forum for awareness. So you mentioned the mattress thing. We just had the commissioner of the OPP. We just launched an awareness campaign featuring the commissioner of the OPP, who's a huge cyclist, and I called him and said would you help us do this? And he said yes, and so the one meter safe passing law is front and center. The campaign is about the one meter law and it's about reminding motorists that they need to give cyclists space, and sharing the road is not just a fun idea In Ontario, it's the law, and so we just launched that a month ago fantastic.

Peter Ladner: 30:15

something else that your organization does that fascinates me and we did actually a whole podcast about this, but I'd love your update on it is bike friendly communities, and I know that your summit in part is a way to announce the latest winners and who's gold, silver and and whatever and can you tell us how that works and how effective that's been? And also I want to know what it would take for us to get it here in BC.

Eleanor McMahon: 30:43

It's a fairly resource-heavy and intensive research-heavy exercise. We brought the Bike Friendly Program from the US in 2010. We helped to launch it in Quebec with fellow Quebec. A number of years later, we launched it at again the AMO conference, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. I invited my friend who'd been the mayor of Madison, wisconsin, dave Cheslevich. I invited a mayor to speak to mayors.

Eleanor McMahon: 31:13

So don't listen to me. Here's a guy who said stood in the room and said I was elected three times on a cycling agenda. They were like what Politicians' ears perked up? How did that happen? Well, here's what I did and this is how he did it. And like the lineup to talk to him was out the door because politicians were making assumptions.

Eleanor McMahon: 31:33

No one wants cycling. 87% of people in this province are multimodal. Don't let the false arguments and false paradigms rule your world. It's bunk. It's not true. Don't create a construct to serve your political ends.

Eleanor McMahon: 31:49

So the bike-friendly program has been a game changer for us, the biggest thing I think it does well, there are three things it does. Number one it measures progress and honors municipalities in a really positive way. We need more positive in cycling, peter. I'm really keen on this. We just need more opportunity to embrace. Peter. I'm really keen on this. We just need more opportunity to embrace progress. Better is always possible. The standard of perfection that we set ourselves sometimes and I've seen advocates do this a lot and it kind of makes my hair stand on end Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. When there's progress, salute it every single time, because progress begets progress. If people are doing things well, tell them thank you. It's just human behavior. And what the Bike Friendly Program does is it really helps municipalities have a different and very positive conversation about cycling versus. Oh my gosh, we really suck, we're terrible. Well, actually, you're not. You're doing a lot of really good things.

Eleanor McMahon: 32:43

So it works on the basis of an application. It's very extensive, um, and we we help municipalities through it. We have a panel of expert judges who are planners, engineers, city builders, urbanists. I'm on the panel. I'm not sure how I fall into that. I'm not an engineer or planner, um, I just care about this stuff and we adjudicate. There's also a section of the application excuse me that is highly weighted towards municipal feedback.

Eleanor McMahon: 33:13

So it's a really great way for municipalities to hear from their citizens about how they're actually doing, and it's not for us, as judges, to come in and say we're having this conversation with the city of Windsor right now, by the way, because we just had the summit there and always an outcome of our summit is a revisiting of their bicycle-friendly community designation, and there's a desire to do that.

Eleanor McMahon: 33:35

Cities are hungry for how to be better, how to do it differently, how other municipalities are doing it, and a platform that allows them to share that information is exactly what the bike friendly program does, and it really does reward success, and if you're not quite there, it says, okay, you're doing great, but really, if you want to progress, here are five things that you should do immediately. Here are five that maybe you want to address in the medium term and in the longer. You have to demonstrate progress towards implementation of a cycling network and a bicycle master plan, for example, an AT master plan that's a vibrant part of your transportation master plan. This is how it works in Ontario anyway.

Peter Ladner: 34:19

How do you deal with communities that are very small and maybe don't have even a traffic planner or transportation planner? Because I noticed that in qualifying for this, you have to get a group of people together in your municipality, you have to include the politicians and the engineers and so on, and if they're very thinly resourced, how do they deal with it?

Eleanor McMahon: 34:46

I've actually never had a problem with that. I mean, even in small communities you can still manage to pull together one or two staff from the city Sometimes it's the CAO, sometimes it's that you can pull in public health, because in Ontario anyway, public health is a regional responsibility. In Ontario anyway, public health is a regional responsibility and they have, especially in large catchment areas, you know, public health staff and adjoining municipalities, even if you don't have one in your municipality. So it's, it's really you need a champion in this in the community.

Peter Ladner: 35:15

Is that a requirement that public health has to be involved?

Eleanor McMahon: 35:18

No, but it's helpful.

Peter Ladner: 35:20

But they're useful allies, of course.

Eleanor McMahon: 35:21

It's really useful allies and, again, they are the evidence-based people who say, well, we do lots of campaigns for anti-obesity and quit smoking and better heart and all these things, and cycling is really connected to all those things and, by the way, when you do it, you should really be safe. So, by the way, get going on implementing better infrastructure and, oh, by the way, get the tourism people involved too, because we know that cycling tourism is hugely beneficial to communities and there's lots of data we've done and others have done that looks at measuring the impact of cycling from a tourism perspective. So it's really about finding allies where you can and even small municipalities can pull together. You know folks who are interested and the other thing is that we match them up with other municipalities who've been successful.

Eleanor McMahon: 36:10

As I mentioned Windsor, we're going to do a workshop in the fall for the Go for Silver workshop in Windsor.

Eleanor McMahon: 36:19

That will bring together all the usual suspects city staff, advocates, politicians again public health all the law enforcement, city staff, advocates, politicians again public health all the law enforcement everybody into a room to have a conversation about where do we see Windsor in five years. And then we're bringing into that forum probably the city of Ottawa or one of our gold bicycle friendly communities to really give them a picture, because I think most people are visual, peter, and if you can tell them where they want to get to and then give them some idea on what the route looks like and how to get there, I think there's a lot of gratitude for that, because everybody wants to be in a constant improvement mode. Most people do, and if you tell them, you know, in five years, this is where, this is where you want to be, maybe and we can help you by introducing you to municipalities who are there already and they can tell you what's possible and how to do it. Can I give you another example that's not bike-friendly related?

Peter Ladner: 37:13

Sure.

Eleanor McMahon: 37:15

When I was in government, I learned that New Brunswick was trying to pass a one-meter safe passing law because they'd had the death of a high profile cyclist who was a professional cyclist, and she died, sadly, in the same way that Greg did. Someone pulled up to pass her and on a one lane road, and that's what happened with Greg. And so this is what you can do when you're in cabinet. So I found out who the minister was. I looked at his social media feed and I saw that he was advocating to get this done. So I arranged a call with him and he said oh, eleanor, the premier's really dragging his feet. He doesn't want to do it. And I said why? Ontario's got it? We have the biggest roads, the busiest roads in the country. If we can do it, you can do it. And then I gave him a bunch of information. Then I said CAA, by the way, one of our biggest allies on everything we do, but certainly on road safety, things like this, and he's like CAA. I never even thought of them and I said boom, you should reach out to them. So voila, caa got involved in Atlanta, canada, they passed the law.

Eleanor McMahon: 38:17

And the reason I share that story, peter, is once you can show that somebody else who's done it. So he said I talked to him after. He said I told the premier what you said and I said, oh good, goodness me, I hope that's okay, but you know, pointing out to him that the place with the busiest roads in the country was able to do it. You just have to have that. Yes, we can. Attitude Peter.

Peter Ladner: 38:41

What's your opinion of automated safety enforcement red light cameras, speed cameras and so on? They would be, as I see it, immensely effective, but there's obviously a political issue there. Have you ever taken that one on?

Eleanor McMahon: 38:59

I've never taken that one on. I know it's being debated in in toronto right now um people are going around and destroying.

Eleanor McMahon: 39:08

There's a message it's really quite distressing. Um, yeah, uh-huh. Um. Well, no one likes to be caught, um, and punished. Um, uh. I remember when, uh, I was talking to the commissioner of the OPP about doing Greg's law and I said why is it that penalties? Money works. What is it that changes people's behavior? Because, peter, when you do cycling work like we do, it's about behavior change. Getting people to think differently about cities, getting people to plan differently, put in infrastructure, thinking about their city to plan differently, put in infrastructure, thinking about their city modal mix differently and changing people's behavior in the context of law enforcement means short chart penalties sometimes that say to people you broke the law and now you're going to pay the consequences for that because we live in a lawful society. So I don't personally have an issue with speed enforcement that reminds people about how they need to drive or should drive. Anything that reminds people to stay safe on the road is, I think, a really good idea. I don't know, I don't know if that answers your question.

Peter Ladner: 40:16

It's one of those things where I think there may be a perception that the public is against it, and you mentioned some of those cameras got smashed. I'm reminded of the recent referendum I believe it was in Paris about whether they should allow e-scooters, and it was defeated. So they don't have e-scooters, but 5% of the people voted, and just one angry person smashing a camera may give the impression that everybody's against this, but you do the polling and your polling data would probably show. As ours shows, for example, on a 30-kilometer speed limit in residential areas, 75% of the people across the province think that's a great idea in their neighborhood, but the politicians won't touch it.

Eleanor McMahon: 40:59

We did it when we were in government. We did it.

Peter Ladner: 41:02

As a default across the province. And was there pushback? It's allowed in BC, but the it as a default across the province. And was there pushback? It's allowed in BC, but the municipalities have to each take it on.

Eleanor McMahon: 41:14

And we're advocating it should just be blanket across the province. Yeah, that one's so sensible to me. I remember Jeanette Sadek-Khan, the former commissioner of transportation in the city of New York under Bloomberg, and she now works for Bloomberg at a city's Institute. But, um, she oversaw, uh, under his direction, the the greatest transformation in New York city from a cycling point point of view. Um, probably ever. Um, really, uh, if, if you go to New York and I do have been a little while I'm not going to the States much these days, but one of my best friends works at the United Nations in New York, so I'm and I cycle when I'm there and I'm quite safe and comfortable.

Eleanor McMahon: 41:49

It's remarkable what she did closed down Times Square to vehicles. Yeah, there's always going to be pushback. Remember before I said you know people don't like change. People don't like change, peter, you know this right. And we're asking people to change and we're asking them to share the road, and we're asking them to be kind and we're asking them to give up space, and we're asking them to give in to people's instinct to improve the planet, their personal health, mitigate congestion and lower their own personal costs, which is everything that cycling does. And why is any of that bad? Back to Jeanette, what she told me about how they succeeded in New York was, she said I just made it about congestion and safety. So to your point about how municipalities push back, if you start to talk about children in community safety zones, which is what we did, who can be against saving children's lives?

Peter Ladner: 42:41

yeah, exactly who.

Eleanor McMahon: 42:43

Who can be against that? Right it just and, and you know when, when you're in Europe, in the UK, where I spent some time there after this global cycling conference in Gdansk recently, just last week I came home on Sunday and a bunch of neighborhoods that I was in I spent some time with friends cycling. I did a bike bus with a group of women that I met in Gdansk, in Glasgow, and they had these signs all over the neighborhood. 20 is plenty. 20 is plenty. Miles an hour, by the way, because they do miles in the UK, but it was interesting 20 is plenty. I thought that's so perfect, right? I mean, why do we need to go quickly, peter? Why can't we slow down in our neighborhoods and look after each other and our neighbors and our friends? Slow down.

Peter Ladner: 43:30

Well, politicians will frequently think of the frustrated motorists just wanting to get somewhere faster. But when you ask the question from the point of view of your neighborhood, do you think cars should go slower in your neighborhood?

Eleanor McMahon: 43:42

Overwhelmingly people say yes, Eleanor, we got to wrap this up, but before we go, you were in Gdansk. You talked to the European Cyclist Federation, was that it? Yeah, so the ECF has a global cycling conference. It was in Vancouver, by the way, in 2010. It's been in Canada twice. 1992 could have been 2012.

Eleanor McMahon: 44:00

Sorry, peter, I'm old now I forget stuff, but they have the Velocity Cycling Conference every year and it brings it's a global conference. About 2000 people attend. Uh, I've been going since 2009. Uh, I've been most years. When I was elected I didn't go, but um, I, uh, and, and, and it and. It brings together cycling advocates, professionals, city leaders, european. It's a very gravitas conference and I was asked to speak on a panel with colleagues from Paris, brussels, poland, the United States about bike clash. So a bit of what we're talking about now how there is pushback against, pushback against uh, cycling, um, and how we deal with that and how we manage that. So that was the conversation, uh, that we had. So it was. It was interesting and great for me to see longtime friends that I only see once a year, once every couple of years, my Dutch and Danish friends, for example. So great, great to be in that venue and lots of things that I've learned. It's always really inspiring to be there, peter.

Peter Ladner: 45:10

Well, speaking of conferences, the BC Cycling Coalition and the Planning Institute of BC are doing a regional cycling conference in Kimberley in September 10th to the 12th and I keep throwing that out there in these podcasts to encourage people to attend, and I'll talk to you later about that, because maybe we can get you there.

Eleanor McMahon: 45:29

Yeah, if you want me to come, maybe I'll look at my calendar and see what I can do. I love coming to BC.

Peter Ladner: 45:34

But I wanted to ask you one more thing about conflict that I'm now hearing about between, and I'm thinking about Europe and all the different modes of travel, the e-scooters and the faster, bigger, better e-bikes.

Peter Ladner: 45:47

It's now the line between non-motorized and motorized transportation starting to get very blurry. And there's we're hearing pushback again. I don't know if it's just people who are finding another reason to be angry at cyclists or actual. I think it's more as much from legitimate cyclists, for, for example, a friend of mine I heard who got knocked off her bike by passing e-bike going too fast. What are your thoughts about congestion in the bike lanes and these new technologies? Are they legitimate partners or do we have to somehow find a new place for them?

Eleanor McMahon: 46:30

new place for them. I'm going to a session on e-bike regulation in Ontario in a couple of weeks that the provincial government is putting on. I think, peter, it's a couple of things. I think this is fairly straightforward and it feels complicated because people don't know what to do, but we regulate cars from a speed point of view. We don't let people just go any speed they want. We have controlled zones and we control people's speeds and, you know, depending on where they are, I think it's probably a good idea to, because people make bad choices, peter, whether they're behind the wheel, and sometimes you and I have seen this, we've all seen it.

Eleanor McMahon: 47:10

I've done so many media interviews and I've never defended people who are careless or unsafe, because we are human beings first and cyclists and motorists second, and that human beingness means that we make silly decisions sometimes, and silly choices when they impact other people, then we have to pay the price for that. Sadly, however, there's laws that prevent and mitigate our behavior. So if there's an opportunity to look at people's choices when they're in the bike lane and if their behavior is causing those places to be unsafe, then we should have a conversation about how we put limits on people's speed If they can't behave responsibly.

Peter Ladner: 48:00

Makes sense to me.

Eleanor McMahon: 48:01

We may have to do that. We do it with cars, peter, and, as I said earlier, in Ontario anyway, 87% of people are motorists, and cyclists too, and so I think this is just like any other group of road user. If people are not behaving well, then we have to say to them you know this is a privilege, not a right, and you need to govern yourself well and to ensure that you do, to protect you and the people around you, we're going to put limits on your speed and then do enforcement, peter.

Peter Ladner: 48:33

Wow, it's so great hearing your story, and I hesitate to say this, but I think that part of your story is your strength as a person and your connections and your energy, and if there were one of you in every province in Canada, we'd be well on our way. But failing that, we'll see you as an example of what can be done from a personal level. And, of course, your strength is in mobilizing other people to do the work together and bringing all these people together. What a great story.

Eleanor McMahon: 49:03

Well, thank you. Happy to chat anytime.

Is it all over for trains on the abandoned E&N Rail line stretching 289 kilometres along Vancouver Island?

Alastair Craighead, Chair of Friends of Rails to Trails Vancouver Island, thinks so, and is one of many people working with regional districts, municipalities, businesses and land-owning First Nations to convert these derelict tracks into a world-class trail network.

Peter Ladner talks with him about the millions of dollars already invested in planning this cycle route, and what has to happen to complete it.

Release Date: July 03, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. All over BC, cyclists and tourism promoters are justifiably excited about converting abandoned rails to trails, and they have been doing this for decades. There have been some notable successes the Kettle Valley Railway, even the Arbutus Greenway in Vancouver. But maybe the biggest dream is the 289-kilometer E&N Rail line on Vancouver Island, stretching from Courtney to Victoria. My guest today is one of the champions of this conversion of that rail line into trails Alistair Craighead. He's the chair of the Friends of this conversion of that rail line into trails, alistair Craighead. He's the chair of the Friends of Rail Trail Vancouver Island. Welcome, alistair.

Alastair Craighead: 1:11

Good afternoon, Peter. It's a pleasure to be here.

Peter Ladner: 1:14

Alistair, you're based in Victoria and you have some history already with converting rails to trails in Victoria. How did you get involved in that and tell us what that was about?

Alastair Craighead: 1:26

We got involved in about 1987. We decided that another unused railway that runs from Victoria through to Sooke and also out to Saanich. We saw the real potential for doing something there that would connect all of the communities as the railway once did, something there that would connect all of the communities as the railway once did. And so what we did? To begin with, we started the Greater Victoria Cycling Coalition and the first project of the Cycling Coalition was to get that conversion started.

Peter Ladner: 1:57

And it's been a remarkable success. As far as I can tell, and I guess what happened there has whetted your appetite for this much bigger project, and I wonder if you could just describe in your dreams if all your dreams came true, what would it look like?

Alastair Craighead: 2:15

Well, in actual fact, I'd say the Galloping Goose really is a model, because it's an active transportation corridor that's used for many things. It's used for people commuting, it's used for recreation, it's used for many things. It's used for people commuting, it's used for recreation, it's used for anybody who wants to get out and get away from cars, really. So to see that extended up island, and it would be an extension, because if we extend that up island, that will connect not just the island but through ferries, it would provide a circle route which would go all the way around. So you'd come in at Swarch Bay, you'd go on the Galloping Goose, you'd go from the Galloping Goose to the Island Corridor Trail, you'd go up there to Comox, from Comox across to Powell River, down through the Sunshine Coast and back into Vancouver. So that, in fact, is the real dream. It could be part of a whole circle route. That would be absolutely amazing for tourism, nothing like anywhere else.

Peter Ladner: 3:11

Now you're talking about tourism and our new board member, colleen MacDonald, who wrote let's Go Biking, has made a comparison between BC and New Zealand in about comparable population sizes and they have something like a $1 billion plus cycle tourism industry. Has there been tourism interest in the Galloping Goose Trail? Do you have any data that people coming to Victoria to do that trail?

Alastair Craighead: 3:41

Well, we're interested in two ways. From tourism there's an organization on the island called 4VI or 4TVI. Now that's the old tourism Vancouver Island organization that was started to promote tourism. But the other element is we have also in our feasibility study some numbers there. We're talking in the millions here about how much economic impact it would have. Probably something like 100 million a year it would build to that. And that's not just an estimate. That's looking at another trail in the? U, the US, which is very similar in demographics and in fact on that trail it's not just an economic impact, it's a creator of business. On the Gap Trail about 40% of the businesses on that corridor corridor's called the Great Allegheny Passage. 40% of the businesses on that corridor owe their existence to that trail. So that's the kind of impact it can have.

Peter Ladner: 4:50

Okay, let's get into it. This project has been underway, or talked about, for many years, but you're not the only organization that has designs on this rail corridor. On this rail corridor, the Island Corridor Foundation seems to be promoting more of a mixed use of rail perhaps a little bit of freight, perhaps some commuting on the tracks, and you're saying that you think it should be no tracks, all biking and hiking. How are you?

Alastair Craighead: 5:23

reconciling those two Biking, hiking and active transportation generally. It's not so much a reconciliation, it's actually an either, or there is actually trail already developed in the capital region beside the rails. The rails in the capital region are not used and they won't be used. There's a study showing that that's not where LRT will eventually go in the capital city. It will go on the corridor where the highway is, so it won't be used. There's a study showing that that's not where LRT will eventually go in the capital city. It will go on the corridor where the highway is, so it won't be used.

Alastair Craighead: 5:49

Anyway, there was a lot of money spent $2 million a kilometer to start the last kilometer built beside the rails $3.4 million for that kilometer. That's clearly not feasible to do that all the way up island not feasible to do that all the way up island. On the other hand, we know there's no funding for rail. We have a good relationship with the ICS. We're quite cordial in our relationship. We just disagree in what the future is, and part of the reason for that is the ICF has in their purposes that a charitable organisation is to support rail. So their purposes have to be changed in order to get it to happen. Five First Nations tried to do that a couple of years ago and they ended up leaving the ICF because the ICF wouldn't change. So that motion is still there on the books, it just hasn't been dealt with.

Peter Ladner: 6:39

Just to be clear, ICF is the Island Corridor Foundation.

Alastair Craighead: 6:43

Island Corridor Foundation. It's a federal charitable organization.

Peter Ladner: 6:47

Now this route would have to go through many jurisdictions. You've got 13 municipalities, five regional districts and anywhere from several to 14 First Nations, depending on land claims. I guess Now in my earlier discussion with you you said getting the agreement of the First Nations is critical to this path going through. Can you elaborate a little bit on that and what's happened in that regard so far?

Alastair Craighead: 7:18

Well, the corridor actually runs through First Nations reserves. The original corridor. The land was basically taken away from the First Nations reserves. The original corridor the land was basically taken away from the First Nations. So, to cut a long story short again, they went to court. They got their land back. One of them has actually lifted the rails from the corridor through their First Nation reserve and put a trail in place. So that's kind of the direction we see most of the First Nations that are actually on the corridor going.

Alastair Craighead: 7:43

There's a number of other First Nations that may not be so keen. But going back to the whole, reasoning behind doing an alternative is that rail is simply not viable. I'd love to be able to step on a train in Victoria and go to Comox. Nothing, I'd like better. It's not going to happen.

Alastair Craighead: 8:01

Federal and provincial government have made it very clear over the past 10, 15 years that there's no funding for rail and I know that the ICF was told that again very, very recently. There's no money coming for rail, so the corridor is a default solution. It's likely to happen sooner or later. One thing everybody agrees on, including the ICF and us and this is one of the reasons we're able to talk is that the corridor is a very valuable transportation asset. It would be a shame to see it go. So when everybody's agreed on that and we know that rail is not viable, we're the default solution. So it gives us a little optimism. It may take a while. Galloping Goose took about 15 years to get built out and you know all the regional districts. Yes, there's five, but the Capital Regional District is the manager for the Galloping Goose Trail. They lease it from the provincial government. I've absolutely no doubt that that model would work for the whole island. It's very well managed by the regional districts a good management model.

Peter Ladner: 9:08

And it's not for lack of study that this project hasn't advanced. I see that the provincial government, the Ministry of Transportation now Transportation and Transit gave $600,000 to each of the jurisdictions at First Nations along the route to do consultant studies and so on. So there must be. What was the result of all those studies? Did that bring you any closer to agreement?

Alastair Craighead: 9:31

I don't know how quiet to put this. It's a little bit of a political football, because a decision has to be made and the whole idea that the government would do this study came from a court a potential court decision that was going to give the land back to the First Nations and basically say that's the end of rail in the corridor if you don't put the money up right away to do it. So the government knows it's a waste of time to try and put money into rail, so they don't want to put the money there, so they start the project. It's been renewed three times. It started off as 18 months. We're over two years now and it's got another six months to run. So we're not too sure.

Alastair Craighead: 10:12

That's necessarily where the answer is going to come from. But there is to some extent a deferment by the regions to the First Nations. There's one First Nation, that's Nenonoas, north of Nanaimo, who are doing a study off the whole corridor using the funding that you mentioned earlier, peter, and we're very optimistic that that will be the best of the studies that will be done. We've seen one completed and you know, one of the first things the study says is we're not going to make a decision on what we think would be best for the corridor. Well, enough said.

Peter Ladner: 10:55

So this is 289 kilometers and I know there are offshoots to Port Alberni and Lake Cowichan that are all part of the plan but, as you said, it was 15 years just to get the galloping goose going. Clearly it's not all going to happen overnight. Are there some sections that would work short of the whole thing? That would be incremental improvements that are reasonably doable early on, given that your studies show that the cost of this is around $600,000 per kilometer.

Alastair Craighead: 11:28

That's right. That cost is about the same as the North Okanagan Trail. It was started by a First Nation who got a $12 million Splats and First Nation. They got a grant from the Federal Active Transportation Fund. Comox is probably the least of a political football, partly because the rails have already been lifted there by a First Nation that's just known as First Nation. So the rails are up there for two kilometers. You're not going to build a railway somewhere else to make up the two kilometers. So we're kind of optimistic. And the other thing is that the Trans-Canada Trail has given us a letter of support for that section. They're supporting that, that section go to trail and they've got a fair bit of influence.

Peter Ladner: 12:17

So that would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail.

Alastair Craighead: 12:20

That would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail Now the Trans-Canada Trail south of that on the island, a large part of it's on an old logging road called the Niagara Main. It is not a pleasant bike ride. It's better than nothing. But if we see that Nanaimo section go to the Trans-Canada Trail, I think that would probably drive the process further south as well. That's only one scenario, but that's a possibility.

Peter Ladner: 12:47

Well, if the Nanaimo to Comox one were done, you would have another circle route to Powell River, to Comox, nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay. Indeed, you would, yes, you would have another circle route to Powell River, to Comox, nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay.

Alastair Craighead: 12:55

Indeed, you would. Yes, you're absolutely right, that would be a shorter circle, but that potential is there all the time too, and it's one of the keys. I mean, we're seeing car-free ferries, if you like to call them that, beginning to operate out of Nanaimo and are very successful, so we may see more of that from other parts of the island too. It's getting very, very expensive to go to Vancouver in a car from the island, so I think the potential for these ferries that would carry passengers and bikes as well is very good.

Peter Ladner: 13:26

Well, I know just a side note on that that the BC Cycling Coalition and Hub Cycling are both working with and pushing the ferries to be more cycle friendly. Yes, so who else is involved? We've mentioned governments and your organization, but are there businesses like Tourism Victoria I don't even know if there is such a thing or Destination BC, or the Ministry of Tourism? Are there others who share your excitement about the tourism potential, who are willing to support it both politically and financially?

Alastair Craighead: 14:01

Yes, indeed, the organization that I mentioned earlier. They call themselves 4VI and they were originally called Tourism Vancouver Island, but the 4 stands for the four sustainabilityples that they use for future tourism. So they're also working quite closely with First Nations and they're very clearly in support of our trail. They're very careful politically about how they say that, but we know them well and we know that we've got their support.

Peter Ladner: 14:30

Well, without trying to make generalizations about First Nations or double guess what they're thinking and doing, can you give us any indications of? Is there a consensus among the First Nations about how this corridor, what we?

Alastair Craighead: 14:47

call the island corridor. That's the coast corridor. There's the coast corridor which is 225 kilometres and then, as you mentioned, there's a spur off to Porto Berni. But off those five First Nations the Snaanaanaas has their land back, the Halaal is another First Nation who they want their land back, and the Cowichan First Nations, which is one of the biggest First Nations groups on the island, they also want their land back. So the corridor is going to be broken in three places.

Alastair Craighead: 15:20

And we've actually spoken to two of the other First Nations. I mentioned perhaps the Cowichan first. We spoke to them about two years ago and they did not want a trail on the corridor through their reserve, where it was located, but they'd be quite happy to reroute a trail either around the outside of the reserve or through a different part of that reserve. So we believe they're somewhat amenable. Uh, the last time we spoke to them was that we made a presentation. They said well, we're definitely not saying yes, but we're not saying no either. So they're obviously watching to see how the winds go and I think the Sinaloa study may be the one that actually drives it for First Nations.

Alastair Craighead: 16:02

But that's the First Nations on the corridor and they're the ones that are most important, two other First Nations in Victoria. The Esquimalt First Nation is one of them. The trail in the capital region is already built around their reserve. Well, it kind of shows that it can be done. So it's already there. So we believe First Nations and many other parts of Canada really see benefit coming because it allows them to have people exposed to their culture. And in fact, the Splatsen First Nation, who are responsible for the North Okanagan Trail. They saw the potential for them as a First Nation to have a trail like that going through their traditional lands, their traditional territory. They saw it as a connector for their traditional territory. We've spoken to them about that and we thought that was very interesting that they saw that potential as a benefit for the First Nation.

Peter Ladner: 17:06

Well, I remember when greenways were being introduced in Vancouver and there were people alongside the route saying, well, we don't want these cyclists, you know, crowding our neighborhood. But it was quickly pointed out that people on bicycles are about the least intrusive visitors you can ask for. They can't. They're not going to break into your house and steal your TV and take it home on their bicycle. They're just and they don't make any noise, they don't make any pollution. They may stop and buy a meal or an ice cream cone or stay somewhere. So it does, on the surface, sound like a big benefit for any territory that's got this trail.

Alastair Craighead: 17:40

Absolutely. We ran into that with the Galloping Goose. There was a girls' school actually on the route and they were very expressive of their concerns about what might happen to the girls with all the riffraff from town coming out past their school. But it quite quickly calmed down and you know, right now I mean practically every politician that was elected eventually was a person that started the galloping goose. You know, everybody claimed it was their own and that's where we want to get. We want to disappear and give it to other people, let them think they did this. It's one of the things that might work politically. Do we want to disappear and give it to other people? Let them think they did this? It's one of the things that might work politically.

Peter Ladner: 18:18

Are the lessons from the Galloping Goose transferable to the rest of the route? Well, some of them are Because it's got a higher built-up density and there would be more commuter and utilitarian trips rather than tourist trips.

Alastair Craighead: 18:39

But some of that route goes through some pretty uninhabited territory. Well, not really I don't want to contradict you, but it goes through some beautiful territory and it is unspoiled. But there's about almost 40 small settlements on that corridor on the coast corridor, and the average distance between them is less than 10 kilometers. So that allows for a lot of potential for local people to use this corridor for active transportation. You've got an electric bike. You can get to a store in five kilometers. Why are you going to jump in your car on a beautiful day? So there's potential there. Anyway, you look at it really.

Peter Ladner: 19:10

Well, I did read that 10% of the population of vancouver island lives within sorry 80 of the population is within 10, 5 to 10 kilometers of this rail.

Alastair Craighead: 19:18

So it is a central spine it is a central spine, a connector spine and, as I say, the demographics are very, very similar to the gap trail in pennsylvania, which is about the same demographics with people close to the corridor, and it's an amazing success.

Peter Ladner: 19:35

So what's next? What are your next steps? What are you waiting for? What's the best chance of a breakthrough?

Alastair Craighead: 19:42

Well, yeah, you can call this the tipping point if you like, but there's really more than one tipping point. One of the tipping points that was of a lot of concern to people was well, is rail coming back? Well, I think we're long past that. You'll still find lots of people say they want to. You know, you'll get thousands of people on a petition saying we'd love to have rail I'd be one of them, but there's no rail coming by.

Peter Ladner: 20:07

the economics just doesn't work just hold that thought for a second. The couch and valley regional district did a survey and 79 percent of people say use it for passenger rail, 49 percent said hiking and biking and 42 percent said freight rail. And the island uh corridor foundation, which, as you said, has built into its purposes that they have to do something about rail, is championing this high rail thing where you kind of get a bus, that's, that's when you you can have the wheels and then it pops up. Some things pop down on it, like those, those four, those pickup trucks that go on the rail tracks and it can be a little commuter through a section and they have found, apparently, that that's operating somewhere around Lillooet. They think that might be useful for a certain section of this trail. Is that a non-starter in your view?

Alastair Craighead: 20:56

I think the one that operates in Lillooet is operating as a kind of school bus and it might carry about 100 people a day. The cost of reestablishing this corridor? Remember it's closed for safety reasons. The corridor is broke. As far as rail is concerned, the existing infrastructure is no good. So are you going to spend several hundred million dollars to run a school bus? I don't think so.

Peter Ladner: 21:22

Okay. So I was asking about your next breakthrough and you were just saying it won't be rail. So then what?

Alastair Craighead: 21:28

Well, we're quite confident that we've passed that kind of tipping point, that rail is coming back, but we've got to get to the point where. How does this happen? There's many ways it could happen. It can happen through one regional district, it can happen through one First Nation.

Alastair Craighead: 21:41

The way the Galloping Goose really took off was a politician, a minister of the Crown, andrew Pedder. You may know his name, I think he was the chair of Simon Fraser. Latterly Anyway, we spoke to him, the president of Simon Fraser, president a big part. He at that time was responsible for an organization called the Capital Commission, which is now gone, unfortunately, and he picked this up and he ran with it. And another politician whose name you probably remember, mose Hota. He joined in and that was really where the thing took off. Someone at some level who is a decision maker has to champion this at some point. We really don't have anybody identified yet, but we think that as the pressure mounts from business, from tourism, that it's likely somebody will have the vision to see this, because when you actually look at this on paper and we look at the studies that have been done, you look at how successful the trails have been. You mentioned New Zealand. That's right in our feasibility study. I mean, I hate to use the term no-brainer, but it kind of is.

Peter Ladner: 22:49

Well, we are going to be championing this at our regional summit in Kimberley September 10th to the 12th. Colleen MacDonald will be there and try to bring people together and do these next steps, but it's interesting that we haven't yet seen any senior, influential politicians step out and try to own this and give it the leadership that it obviously needs.

Alastair Craighead: 23:13

Actually we did have one politician and I won't mention names, but one politician did a minister in the last government. She was very confident and very enthusiastic about it, but it was not something the government wanted to deal with at the time and I think that really is part of the problem. There's so many other issues at the moment that weren't there when we started the Galloping Goose, but I'm pretty confident at some point there is going to be an Andrew Pedder that will say this is a good news story. People love trails. We can make political capital out of this.

Peter Ladner: 23:54

And do you think that it will be the economic tourism potential that will make the difference?

Alastair Craighead: 24:00

I don't think necessarily that is the only thing that would make the difference. The Galloping Goose is still not promoted for tourism. It does get some tourism, especially up at the West End where it goes through an amazing area called the Sooke Potholes. It's second to none.

Alastair Craighead: 24:18

It's a scenic place in the west coast of the island. But there's lots of reasons why people would support this. Tourism is just one. But active transportation is growing. It's right there in the provincial government policy, the South Island Transportation Study. Two priorities are public transit and active transportation. Federal government. They had the fund. We got money from that fund. So it's kind of like there's a lot of things just waiting to happen there. I must admit, I'm kind of hoping I make it to your active transportation event this year because I'm sure it's going to be a pretty interesting discussion.

Peter Ladner: 24:56

Well, I hope so, and tell me more about your organization. I mean, you've been going for how long and how many people are involved with that and what does that take to keep it going.

Alastair Craighead: 25:07

I've been involved for five or six years years I think it was going for a few years before that but when I became involved we decided to actually become a provincial society and things took off. From then. It opened doors. We've seen the provincial transportation ministers two of them so far probably half a dozen times, but you really have to have the constituency to get this to happen and that's what we're really focused on building right now. We're focusing on Comox in the near future and we have a couple of business people up there involved with their organization, who are you know they've got some credibility when it goes to talk to the Chamber, when they go to talk to the Chamber of Commerce up there involved with their organization, who are you know they've got some credibility when it goes to talk to the chamber, when they go to talk to the chamber of commerce. And you know we've got everything from university professors to economists on our board, you know, really good board, solid board, all of whom are working board members.

Peter Ladner: 26:01

That's fantastic and I want to give a plug to your video that you've done. You can tell people how to reach, I guess.

Alastair Craighead: 26:09

Fortvica is our website.

Peter Ladner: 26:11

Fortvica.

Alastair Craighead: 26:13

And there's lots of information on there.

Peter Ladner: 26:15

And you have there people like a councillor from Qualicum and a vineyard owner from the Couch and Valley, I think would love to see bikes coming by his place.

Alastair Craighead: 26:23

Well, the councillor for Qualicum is my favourite. I think he basically says everybody loves trains, but nobody wants to pay for them, so let's do a trail.

Peter Ladner: 26:32

And so I guess your job now is to cultivate more people like that, who will speak out and solicit support from their region.

Alastair Craighead: 26:38

Yes, there are more and more all the time we do a newsletter. It's well over a thousand now in circulation. We've got about 300 members and membership's growing, so it's growing steadily.

Peter Ladner: 26:49

Well, thank you so much, because this is one of those things that I particularly like as a cycling advocate, because it crosses so many different constituencies and it's not just a few geek cyclists, it's communities and hotels and commuters and families getting to school and doing their work and just visitors coming to BC. I know that the head of the Island Corridor Foundation dreams of having people coming to the World Cup to be doing this or some part of this route, so that'll be a quick turnaround, but hey, let's dream big.

Alastair Craighead: 27:24

Well, with a trail, it's all ages and abilities.

Peter Ladner: 27:28

Fantastic, yeah, around. But hey, let's, let's dream big. Well, with the trail, it's all ages and abilities. So fantastic, yeah. Well, we'll keep an eye on this, alistair, and maybe, uh, see you at our conference in kimberly in september. And I do hope so and, and hopefully the bc cycling coalition, can help you and other organizations like yours work on these projects and bring them to fruition. Thank you absolutely, absolutely.

Alastair Craighead: 27:45

We really appreciate that, peter. Thank you.

Check out Friends of Rails to Trains Vancouver Island HERE and be sure to watch their delightful video.

For another view on the corridor's future, see the Island Corridor Foundation.

How can we transform young children into lifelong cyclists? Maya Goldstein's innovative Kids on Wheels and School Bike Bus programs teach biking to children as young as age two, and bring out as many as 60 kids at a time to ride to school together. Listen up to find out how you can get your local young'uns on wheels before car culture takes hold.

Release Date: June 17, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. There's a saying attributed to the Catholic Church that if you can instill beliefs into a child before age six, they will become a convert for life. Our guest today, maya Goldstein, has taken this same approach to cycling, instilling a belief and a practice of cycling into children as young as age two, and she has developed two programs we're going to talk about today. One is Kids on Wheels and the other is a school bike bus program and brought kids into the world of cycling in a way that might never have happened were it not for those programs. Maya, welcome to the podcast.

Maya Goldstein: 1:11

Thank you, Peter. Thanks for inviting me. It's great to be here.

Peter Ladner: 1:14

I had the opportunity of riding with you and your husband, gilly, and your two kids now aged 10 and 6, two boys in your bike bus on the last day of the bike to school week last Friday. This is now we're talking about early June and I was reminded it reminded me of being on a critical mass ride because there was a whole swarm of kids all milling around, kind of weaving a little bit, and their parents. Your husband had the boom box going out front and when we came to an intersection there were too many kids to pass. During the time the light was green and we actually stopped traffic. I thought that was quite fun and, of course, other groups were joining us at different intersections along the way. By the time we got to your school it was a big biking party and I thought I imagine you would have been pretty happy at that result. Was that an unusually happy day for you?

Maya Goldstein: 2:11

Yeah, definitely Fridays. It's the day that we do bike bus in my kids' school and it's not just a happy day for me. I think it's a happy day for all participants in the bike bus, if it's kids, if it's parents. We also had the school's principal joining us once, a teacher, we had many guests and everyone that started day on the bike bus. Just have the best day after that.

Peter Ladner: 2:36

You can't not well, that's our dirty little secret among cyclists that when you start your day riding somewhere, you you're having a happy day. But before we get to that, I want to go back to Kids on Wheels, which is a program for preschoolers, age two to four, to get them on the balance bikes the very beginning of cycling. Can you tell me how that program works and why you were drawn to start it up?

Maya Goldstein: 3:09

drawn to start it up. Yeah, so Kids on Wheels. It's a program for children starting at age two and going all the way to preschool, age four, and even we do in community center till age six. How I got started with Kids on Wheels takes me back to when I did my master's at UBC. I did it in the Faculty of Education and kind of as a side job. I also worked at childcare centers and since I got to see a variety of different daycares and centers.

Maya Goldstein: 3:36

What I noticed is that there was a big car culture in many of the classes and outside in the courtyard or where they played, but there was nothing about biking.

Maya Goldstein: 3:49

There were no bikes around for them to practice, there were no bicycle toys, there were no books.

Maya Goldstein: 3:58

It was all very much car-dominated trucks and that's all the kids kind of got to to be familiar with.

Maya Goldstein: 4:06

So I thought that's interesting and also I found it a little bit problematic because I think it should be open to different mode of transportations and as someone who really loves, I could see a huge benefit for kids to start biking as an early age, but also for them to be exposed to it as kind of a daily life, something that you can do as a commute you can go to daycare with your bike, you can go to the beach, you can go to the park. So I developed this program that it's not only for kids to be practicing balance bikes outside, it's also about getting them familiar with the concept of biking as your daily, daily life. So we read books, we do art activities, we have one day, which is really fun, where they get to create their own maps, so places where they can go biking around Vancouver or wherever the program is, and it's really kind of expand their minds of what is doable and what they can do on the bikes and also they impact their families that way.

Peter Ladner: 5:20

Maya, you're talking about being at a preschool and kids learning this as part of their way of being throughout the year.

Peter Ladner: 5:29

But the Kids on Wheels program has evolved or become a one-week program that's offered through community centers and so on, and you had worked for the BC Cycling Coalition in making this happen and now it has expanded somewhat in making this happen and now it has expanded somewhat.

Peter Ladner: 5:49

But it's one of the problems I want to have to feel I have to address is the funding model, because it does depend on external grants.

Peter Ladner: 5:56

We've typically got them from the Canada summer jobs, from the federal government, and the parents only pay I would call it a token amount like 125 bucks or something for a one week of summer supervision, daycare-ish kind of programming. And this has turned into a bit of a problem because this year we have not got all the grants we require at the BC Cycling Coalition and we're having a problem finding ways to finance it. So I'll just put that out there and if there are any listeners who are passionate about this and haven't already heard our fundraising pitches, we'd love to hear from you and have some support from you, because this is the way to make it go. Now, maya, you developed this program so that it can be picked up anywhere in the province or, I suppose, anywhere in the world? Tell me the framework that you offer, that now is offered through the BC Cycling Coalition, which enables, say, a community center or a preschool to pick this up and do it on their own, a preschool to pick this up and do it on their own.

Maya Goldstein: 7:04

So there's a lot of ways where people around the province or community center can pick it up. We can offer training. It's not very complicated to learn. A lot of early childhood educators can do it on their own. Everything is child-based and child-friendly and, like I said, a lot of games and a lot of play and kids just love it. The program itself is not very long it's top one and a half hours because we know that the attention span of kids is limited, especially in that age. So we kind of frame it that it fits children a different age, if they're really young and need to nap in the middle of the day, or if they're really young and need to nap in the middle of the day, or if they're very active and need to get their energy out. So it's really kind of perfect for everyone.

Peter Ladner: 7:53

Well, I've mentioned the funding challenges, but what are some of the other barriers? If somebody wanted to do this at their community center or preschool or something I can imagine you'd need to find the bicycles for one thing.

Maya Goldstein: 8:06

Yeah. So the bicycles if we want it, through Kids on Wheels, through the BC Cycling Coalition here in Vancouver, we actually provide the bikes. We have the bikes here, we have helmets, we have all of the setup to go so we can come to the daycare and have bikes to every child. We have different sizes, different size helmets. We have the stop signs to set up the traffic garden outside. We have the books. We have all the equipment.

Maya Goldstein: 8:34

So some of the challenges are not actually around that part. It's more about the space where they can run the program if it's the outdoor part or a gym and then the storage, because if we come for a week for a child care center, we do want them to store the bike for that period of time. So those challenges are not um, I think we can overcome them easily. We can always find a corner where we can stock the bikes for a week. The advantages here is that the bikes are really small. They're not big. When we think of bikes sometimes we think of adult bikes, but really balanced bikes are very small. So even 20 of them, they don't take that much room.

Peter Ladner: 9:18

Well, what if somebody in Prince George wanted to do this, though, and they don't have access to the bikes that the BC Cycling Coalition has they? How would they go about that? They would have to get their own bikes.

Maya Goldstein: 9:29

Yeah, yeah, they would need to get their own bikes or children can are also invited to bring their own bikes. But I think that BC Cycling and Kids on Wheels are now partnered with Strider Bikes so we can offer a package deal for community centers or places that they want to run the program. We're actually working right now with denman island and they're going to get those strider bikes from strider through kids on wheels and they can start their own kids on wheels on denman island. We also worked also worked in Victoria with Pisces and they started Kids on Wheels over there and they got the bikes Also, mostly through Strider. So definitely there's ways to get those bikes and get the Kids on Wheels program started in other places around the province.

Peter Ladner: 10:21

I would assume that the parents have to be pretty closely involved with this. They may be present during the whole time. And what's it been like getting parents who may not be cyclists themselves, or maybe just not that knowledgeable? What's it like getting them involved?

Maya Goldstein: 10:39

Yeah, parents, we have two programs actually in the community center. One is parents participation, that parents need to be there. That's more for younger kids till age four, two to four. And then we have a program also for slightly older kids from three to six, and parents are not required to stay. So there's two options.

Maya Goldstein: 11:01

But really for the parents if they're not cyclists it's not a requirement. They're not even getting on their bikes for this program. They really just need to be there to be engaged with their kids, to be happy and kind of encourage them and help them. But it's not a whole lot on the parent side but what it does it does do is that the parents feel more confident to get their kids outside with a balanced bike. We practice stopping so they know if they say stop the child needs to listen, because they learned it in the program kids starting to recognize stop signs, they're recognizing crosswalks, so they know not just not to continue. They learn to wait for the parents and I think for some parents this is huge and then they feel more comfortable just letting their kids go out with their balance bike when they're really little.

Peter Ladner: 11:59

This started when you were doing your master's degree in education. Have you done any research? Has anybody done any research on the difference between kids who go through kids on wheels and their later cycling habits, and those who don't?

Maya Goldstein: 12:14

Yeah, I don't know if specifically on kids on wheels, but there has been a lot of research done on balanced bike compared to bikes with training wheels and definitely the answer is that balanced bikes are kind of the more natural way to learn how to bike pedal bikes because you really can separate the balancing part from like everything else. So they learn how to balance. So naturally they can move on to pedal bikes without fear because now they learn how to balance. So what we recommend is to move from balance bike to pedal bike.

Maya Goldstein: 12:57

Don't go to that training wheel stage because that will set them backwards. Now, if they go back to training wheels, they lost everything that they gained with balance bikes because now they're on these wobbly training wheels. I've seen it with my own kids how they in 15 minutes picked it up from being ready to pedaling, and I've seen it with other kids it's not just my kids like someone who practiced balance bike for a while. They glide, they feel comfortable, they lift their feet. Kids know when they're ready and they will kind of tell you or you'll kind of pick it up and then they'll be ready to go to move on to pedal bikes.

Peter Ladner: 13:37

Well, speaking of moving on, maya, let's we're going to leave that one behind and just again say that the BC Cycling Coalition continues to promote this program. It has all this information available and we'd love to hear from anybody who wants to bring this into the community. But you have moved on to hub cycling and done something again with your own kids. That's turned into a province-wide initiative the bike bus program. How did you get started on a bike bus? What is a bike bus anyway?

Maya Goldstein: 14:10

So a bike bus is a group of kids biking to school together, usually on a planned route, on a sent route, with adult supervising, so adults are there to kind of guide the ride and be in the middle, be in the back, but really it's the children who are kind of taking taking the road, taking the lead, taking the initiative and just getting to school. It all it all. It is it's their route, that they do to school but they're on bikes and with they are with friends and they do to school but they're on bikes and they are with friends and they get to connect with friends before school, they get to chat, they get to not be driven to school and it's just really, really fun. And yeah, you need to see it at action to kind of experience it and see how cheerful the kids are.

Peter Ladner: 14:55

I would agree with that and we will have a picture up on the podcast to show that. But in your case, the one I participated in, everybody had to meet at a certain place, so you've got to have a rendezvous place to start and you presumably don't need a protected bike route to do this. You're just out on the regular.

Maya Goldstein: 15:15

These were residential streets, but there's the safety in numbers aspect that makes it work yeah, yeah, we start, um, every bike bus start starting stop one, we call it or meet up point, but we do pick up kids along the way. That's kind of what makes it the concept of a bus, uh, that there's stops along the way. Our group is really big right now so we don't officially stop on the ride and kids joining, we slow down, they join, it's kind of they flow together. Kids get very excited. Also, the kids that are waiting in the stop to see the bike bus coming, and also the kids that are riding to see their friends in the corner joining. It's always hi, good morning. How are that are riding to see their friends in the corner joining? It's always hi, good morning. How are you good to see you? And they're just, it's really nice to hear them kind of being so nice to each other and happy to see each other what's the biggest bike bus you've ever been on?

Maya Goldstein: 16:11

the biggest bike bus I've been on was the one in portland. I can tell you that story and how I got started, because bike buses are worldwide and Portland really picked it up with coach Sam Balto. I went to that bike bus just before I started my own, so over two years ago. I heard about this bike bus in Portland. This is really how I got familiar with the concept, so I joined the, I took my bike, I took the train down to Portland, met Sam Balto. He's one of the main leaders now in the bike bus movement and just joined his bike bus. It was very similar to what you saw on Friday a group of kids biking to school. Their route was very similar actually not that much longer but so many kids and it was so cheerful. And even though I already had that idea in my mind and kind of started promoting it in my school, that's when it kind of clicked that I have to do it, I have to get it going. It was just so, so, so awesome. But for our bike bus, I think the one last Friday was one of the biggest.

Maya Goldstein: 17:21

We have every now and then kind of special events, so that was the end of bike to school week. We've done it in the last two years. The end of bike to school week tends to be big. We also do an Earth Day bike bus around Earth Day. That one typically is big as well. Bike paths around Earth Day that one typically is big as well. And then just the spring is a great time to get a bigger turnout of kids. But we also run it around over the winter and going through rainy days and windy days and everything, the biggest bike path. I think we had over 60 kids riding and it's just so so much fun. And it's so much fun even if you're walking to school because you see that kind of sworn of kids biking and the music and the cheerfulness.

Peter Ladner: 18:19

What does it take to get a bike bus going at a school? If someone wanted to start one up, you would probably, I assume, have to get the cooperation of the school itself, some kind of liability questions, and then a whole lot of parents would have to show up.

Maya Goldstein: 18:37

Can you just run us through the different ways that people have to get involved in order to make this work, the different ways that people have to get involved in order to make this work. So, yeah, there's different ways to start a bike bus. The way I run it in my kids' school is parent-led. So, like I said, I had the idea, the initiative, and I took it to the Parents Advisory Council, the PAC Every school has a PAC and kind of asked them what do you think about this idea? At that point I was not involved in the pack.

Maya Goldstein: 19:04

I was a parent and one of the reasons I got the bike bus started is because, as a parent and I had one child in the school at that time we didn't feel very connected to our school community. It was kind of post-COVID times and when he started kindergarten there wasn't a whole lot going on in terms of after-school programs, way to meet friends, so we felt we kind of missed on a lot of those social interactions. So that was one of the reasons I got to I got the idea of getting it started. The other one is that we were one of the very few families kind of biking regularly to school and I always came with my son and there were, the bike racks were just empty and it was just. It made me really sad because we we do have good bike racks in the school, so it's not about like where would you leave the bike that some other schools face, it was just, um, I don't know.

Maya Goldstein: 20:11

I didn't know what it was, why kids weren't biking to school that much and when, when we got started, we were very few. We have a picture of our first bike bus. We're barely like 20 people there with parents and all that. And then we decided we'll keep it going every Friday. So it's really about keeping it consistent, the commitment and being there and getting other kids and parents excited and involved. But also, when you get it going and you get it started, you see that it's not that complicated and once you're there and you have that commitment, yeah, you can do it every Friday and it's just seeing the excitement. It's just really, really worth it.

Peter Ladner: 20:57

But there are some things that have to happen. You have to have parents who have bicycles who can come along for the ride, so you have to have cycling parents. Was that a? Have you made some parents into cycling parents in order to make this happen?

Maya Goldstein: 21:11

yeah, um for sure there's some parents that started biking again thanks to the bike bus. We heard stories about parents saying, oh, I haven't biked in 15 years, but now my kids, they really want to do the bike bus. So we dug up this old bike and made it work and now we bike into school. For some parents, they started biking to work because of the bike bus, because they're already there with their bikes. So it's like, oh, now just biking to work because of the bike bus, because they're already there with their bikes. So it's like, oh, now just continue to work. So it's really it's impacting in so many different levels. It's not just the kids on the bike bus or just the parents, it's also the whole school community. Even if you're not on route or you're not on the bike bus, you just see that excitement. We have kids from different directions that started biking because it kind of normalizes it.

Peter Ladner: 22:00

Do you have kids who walk along because you're not going very fast?

Maya Goldstein: 22:04

Yeah, this Friday we had a kid who was running alongside, but we don't usually get kids who are walking. I mean there are kids that are walking that are not part of the bike bus. Walking, I mean there are kids that are walking that are not part of the bike bus. We did have over this winter a couple of times where the roads were just too icy. We had the snowstorm and after that 8th Avenue, where we go, wasn't cleared, so it wasn't safe to get the kids out on their bikes. So instead we decided to do a walking bus or walking school bus, and just started at the same midpoint, went along the same route, we started a little bit earlier to give people more time to walk, and it was really, really fun to just we actually got other kids who don't bike normally, so they joined us for the walk.

Peter Ladner: 22:57

Now you've taken this individual effort and you're now working for Hub Cycling since last fall. Tell me what you're doing and again, I think you've got some funding from the provincial government to roll this out.

Maya Goldstein: 23:11

Yeah, since I already mentioned how we did the walk-in school bus just twice this year, I want to mention another program called the Walk-in School Bus that is run by Society for Children and Youth of BC and this is our delivery partner, who we work with and thanks to this provincial funding. And walk-in school bus is the same idea that kids walk together with groups, with supervised leaders, and this program is actually happening in some schools every day. So it's a way for kids to walk to school, to and back from school with supervised leaders, with friends, and get to school by walking.

Peter Ladner: 23:55

When you talk about supervised leaders for these walking school buses, are these paid people from the school or are they parents that have to go through some kind of screening, or how does that work?

Maya Goldstein: 24:06

Yeah. So for the walking school buses, they have two models. So one is a parent-led, like we do with parents volunteers, but the other one that's the one that they now started going in Vancouver Island it's paid leaders, so they hire people to walk these kids, and it's really also to give parents a little bit more time, a little bit more freedom, so parents don't have to walk with their kids to school in this program and they don't need to be there at pickup to pick them up. So it's really also about getting some time back to the parents. Some parents find this particular time of day very challenging, so having that option is amazing in some communities, for some parents, for working parents.

Maya Goldstein: 24:57

With our bike bus program we have trained instructors that are doing the bike bus programs in schools. They are the ones who are leading the hub cycling bike buses. They are trained, they have their criminal record checked, they have first aid training. They're very, very knowledgeable about working with children and interacting with children. So it's really a great kind of partnership. And to bring everything that hub cycling teaches in schools about road safety and how to behave on the road. This is when they really get to put it in practice, because this trip to school. It's something that they do every day, every single day.

Peter Ladner: 25:47

Is this program available anywhere in BC?

Maya Goldstein: 25:50

So it's available now in Metro Vancouver. We have three bike buses running through the program in Vancouver and we have one in South Surrey and then we are working with Capital Bike on Vancouver Island that they have one bike bus started this spring in Saanich and we really hope to get it more province-wide and into the interior hopefully the north in the next school year.

Peter Ladner: 26:19

And is that up to you to do that, or do you expect somebody to contact Hub Cycling and ask to be involved?

Maya Goldstein: 26:26

It's really I don't have a defined answer right now. Right now our goal is to continue with Capital Bike on Vancouver Island to get them to do one or two more bike buses and then hopefully maybe in the spring we can get it into other places. We really need a community partner to do that. What I learned through this program is that basic knowledge is key when we do our route planning. Even when we did the one for Surrey, I don't know South Surrey at all, so we really needed that key parent volunteer to help us with the mapping where it would make sense to do the bike bus.

Maya Goldstein: 27:18

And I went to South Surrey actually last week to join that bike bus and it was just amazing for me to see all the work we have done, kind of put it into action and see, oh, this is the route, this is what I saw like on Google Maps or Google Earth. This is how they do it and it's been two months since they started, so not that long. But everyone knows exactly what they're doing. The parents know where they need to crop, the parents know where they need to crop, the kids know where they need to be. They have like a few groups like us joining along the way and they know to wait and then kind of join for the bike bus, so it really can work everywhere.

Peter Ladner: 28:00

Well, I would assume that there would be some organic growth to some parent who heard about it at another school or their kid moved to a different school and they wanted to get it going. Has that happened where you don't even have to be involved and the parents just figured it out and made it happen?

Maya Goldstein: 28:17

Yeah for sure.

Maya Goldstein: 28:18

Even before I started this role at Hub Cycling as the bike bus manager, I got contact a lot from other parents, from other schools.

Maya Goldstein: 28:27

That's really what also got me to talk to Hub Cycling or to other organizations about running a bike bus program, because I saw that there was really a need and what parents or teachers or whoever wants to start a bike bus what they really need is that initial support. They're they're a little bit lost with how to to get it started. But once you get them through the the stages and how it works and once they get it started, like I say, many of them realize it's not that complicated. It does require commitment and it requires community efforts, but they can, they can, they can run it. And the idea also with our hub cycling program is that eventually it will pass on to the parents to continue the effort on their own and then we can use our resources to get other schools started to get more kids biking. And definitely it's like a snowball effect More kids want to join because they see their friends and more schools want to join because they see other schools doing it.

Peter Ladner: 29:33

I assume some of the information about starting these up is available online through the Hub Cycling website.

Maya Goldstein: 29:39

Yes, yes, yeah, we did put resources for parents-led bike buses to help more schools and more municipalities to get bike buses started.

Peter Ladner: 29:50

I'm going to ask you the same question as with the kids on wheels. Is there any data that shows that kids who, for example, start riding to school on the bikes through the bike buses or walking through the walking school buses?

Maya Goldstein: 30:07

continue doing that when the supports are taken away and they get older. One of the interesting, I think, studies around that is around actually activism and how children feel empowered that they do something around climate change, that this is how they can contribute to their environment. It starts small, it starts with one day a week when they're biking to school, but it's really something that they feel ownership about. It's also about good connections, not just with the school community but with your school, like you're getting to school First of all, it was your choice. You brought yourself to school. You biked yourself to school First of all. It was your choice. You brought yourself to school. You biked yourself to school. You weren't driven, you weren't like taking from point A to point B in like a close space. You made that decision. You're back to school and you're like we said, your whole day will be better if you started it with biking and being with a group of friends.

Peter Ladner: 31:04

Something that occurs to me, a benefit of this which I discovered with my own children when they were in elementary school. At one point they wanted to do a field trip to one of the Gulf Islands, but it required all the kids to have a bike and the bike had to be in working order. So the school organized a mechanics day where you could bring your broken down bike and they'd oil the chain and get it all working. And I would imagine once a kid has been up on a bike bus, now they have a working bike and they can start to do whatever they do on a bike and ride around and have fun with each other. Have you found that to be the case?

Maya Goldstein: 31:41

Oh yeah, definitely so. Now because we have more bikes and more kids biking to school. Many kids stay after school and all they want to do is bike around the school. In our school these last few weeks we also have the school streets program, so we have a closed block outside just in front of the school with no traffic before and after school. So it gives kids a little bit more of extra space where they can practice their skills.

Maya Goldstein: 32:13

On Fridays we have bike ramps that we put outside and they can practice, you know, a little bit more of this risky play and going on the bike ramps and going up and down. It makes the whole experience of school a lot more fun. And for kids who are having a hard time at school, this is really exciting because this is something that connects them with other friends outside school and also connects them with friends who are not necessarily in their classrooms. So for children who might be struggling socially in their classrooms, then they get the opportunity to connect with kids who are biking, not in their classes, but they have something in common right off the bat they are biking. They don't need to talk much, they don't need to interact that much, but they are biking around, they're going fast, they're having fun. It's just really, really great to see that.

Peter Ladner: 33:13

Wow, it's a very heartwarming story, Maya. Is there anything? I think we have to wrap it up, but is there anything else you'd like to add that we haven't covered?

Maya Goldstein: 33:21

One of the stories I want to mention in terms of infrastructure, of doing with our own bike bus.

Maya Goldstein: 33:27

If you notice that intersection, when you said McDonald's and when our group started to grow last year, we noticed that we don't have enough time to cross that intersection. So I contacted the city of Vancouver and I asked them to add a few more seconds to that intersection and it wasn't just around the bike bus, because this intersection is close to the library, it's close to the supermarket, there's a lot of seniors that cross that road and it was just not enough time even if you're walking. So I gave them all those reasonings and they were very open and supportive and over the summer they worked on that and a few weeks after we got the bike bus started in this school year they increased our timing and it's been amazing. It just makes the difference if you have a few more seconds to cross that and I really hope that with our hub bike bus program we can get those changes into other routes where children are walking and biking to school, to just make it safer for everyone.

Peter Ladner: 34:35

Well, as with so many conversations about cycling, this one circles back to the need for safe infrastructure, because, although there is safety in numbers in the bike bus, you can go down and, let's say, any street with a whole bunch of kids and everybody's going to make way and give room. When those kids are out on their own.

Peter Ladner: 34:51

It's not the same, and I not only would I'm sure they learn that, but then they would be looking for safe places to cycle other than just around the schoolyard yeah, definitely we will continue our campaigning for that, as I'm sure you will, and these kids, hopefully, will become ambassadors for cycling in a way, and they and their parents will be demanding more safety along the lines of what you just described at that intersection.

Maya Goldstein: 35:21

Yeah, and I hope that we'll get to a point actually where bike buses are not needed, that we can do them because they're fun and it's a great community connection, but that kids feel safe enough and parents feel safe enough that they can let their kids biking or walking to school on their own.

Peter Ladner: 35:39

Well, thanks so much, maya, for all the good work you're doing and your example that you're setting and the guidance that you're providing everybody else and I would encourage anybody listening to step up and do the same. Do more, make it happen, because, as you've said, there are so many benefits and there's just a lot of happiness and community building and all that good stuff. So, thanks so much, maya.

Maya Goldstein: 36:03

Thank you, peter, thanks for having me here.

• SUPER CUTE Gordon Elementary Bike Bus CoV video June 2023

• HUB Bike Bus program (Funded by the BC Provincial Government Ministry of Transportation and Transit)

• Parent-led Bike Bus Resources

• Portland Bike

• BusesBike Bus World

Check out Maya's Bike Bus musings on Linkedin .

Contact Maya at maya.goldstein@bikehub.ca

What happens when 30,000 km of trail must serve hikers, cyclists and motorized users? In this episode, we sit down with Léon Lebrun, Director of Trails BC, to unpack nearly three decades of behind-the-scenes stories from the creation and evolution of the Trans Canada Trail.

From navigating conflicts between ATVs and hikers to pushing for local voices in trail management, Léon offers a candid look at the triumphs and tensions that have shaped one of the world’s longest recreational trails — and what still needs to be done in B.C.

Release Date: May 28, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today we're going to talk about the longest multi-use trail in the world, better known in our parts as the Trans-Canada Trail, and it's the result of the work of many people over many years. But perhaps in BC nobody has worked harder on this trail for more years than my guest today, Léon Lebrun, or in French, Léon Lebrun, 1995, as a school teacher, and at that point he was a school principal, and he's also been a festival organizer and he now is a director of Trails, bc.

Léon Lebrun: 1:12

Welcome, léon.

Peter Ladner: 1:12

Good afternoon, Léon. You say you were a festival organizer. What festival did you organize?

Léon Lebrun: 1:21

Oh well, I belonged to an organization called Société Maillard-Ville and as a member of this organization and I was a school principal at the time we decided to found a festival called the Festival du Bois. Oh yeah, and this is in Maillard-ardville, so in Mallardville. So at that time Mallardville was really quite French. When I went to school here in Mallardville, I spoke only French to start with, and at home we only spoke French, even though I was raised here in British Columbia, in this community called Mayerville.

Peter Ladner: 2:12

Does the Trans-Canada Trail go through Mayerville?

Léon Lebrun: 2:16

No, it doesn't actually.

Peter Ladner: 2:18

Oh.

Léon Lebrun: 2:20

But I mean, coquitlam is quite of course. Mayerville is in Coquitlam, and so it's in Coquitlam. It's quite large actually, and so the trail itself doesn't go through that community. No, not at all.

Peter Ladner: 2:39

How did you get involved with the Trans-Canada Trail? You must have fallen in love with it in some way to have devoted all these years, 29 years of involvement with it. How did that start?

Léon Lebrun: 2:54

Well, I guess I retired when I was 55 years of age, years of age, and soon after, when I'm turning 56.

Léon Lebrun: 3:12

I went to the Canada Trust at the time and at that, and found there that there was a brochure called the Trans-Canada Trail Concept so I picked it up and phoned the people there, because I've always been interested in trails and always brought the students and so on out to experience the wilderness and so on, and I thought, well, that's something I can do as a retired person and it turned out to be my career for the next 29 years.

Peter Ladner: 3:50

Are you a cyclist more or a hiker more, or just love the outdoors?

Léon Lebrun: 3:56

Well, I've been more of a hiker, I guess, but I've cycled a lot. I've led cyclists a lot.

Peter Ladner: 4:35

I've led cyclists, I've put out in our website for people and discovered, when these people would join me, how little they knew about their own community and is cycling on the Trans-Canada Trail a way to learn about your community?

Léon Lebrun: 4:47

Yes, I really believe that the best way to learn about your community is to first of all take your time, try to see what's around you, and the best way to do that, of course, if you're in nature as much as possible, of course, going through urban areas there's a lot of interesting things that people can stop and appreciate. In fact, our communities are very, very varied, and when people start realizing that there are more things to see than to just watch the ground as you're cycling away or walking, so could you describe how the trail works?

Peter Ladner: 5:42

Because it's not just a trail through the woods that goes across Canada. It mixes up, it goes through cities, it's all different forms. How does it work in the parts that you've worked on it?

Léon Lebrun: 5:54

well, I started this in 1996 and at that point we didn't have much of an idea what that trail was going to look like, because it's really equestrians that started the whole idea and the first thought was to hike really is what we were thinking about. So I started to explore all these trails, like the Bidding Powell Trail, the Centennial Trail, that kind of thing, the Ben Powell Trail, the Centennial Trail, that kind of thing, and there was this realization all of a sudden is that we weren't meeting the people when we were doing that kind of thing. It tended to be a solitary kind of thing, and so all of a sudden we had this idea that really our trails should connect our community somehow. And the realization was especially here in British Columbia is that our communities were not connected. Suggest a trail to connect with the next community.

Léon Lebrun: 7:08

We had to go and go to their maps. In other words, they concentrated on their own maps and if they had any trails there and of course they always did in communities such as this they kind of didn't think about the idea that they would somehow connect with other communities. So the whole idea of the Trans-Canada Trail was to connect communities and over time we started to learn about our First Nations as well, because a lot of these maps that we were looking at there were holes that were where the bands lived in their reserves, and so there was an attempt here to try to connect with First Nations. And it's in recent times where we're really making some strides with that, with a program that, with that, we call the Great Blue Heron Way.

Peter Ladner: 8:17

We won't get into a lot of detail the Great Blue Heron Way because that's a whole podcast in itself. But let me ask you generally do you think that the trail has in fact connected communities?

Léon Lebrun: 8:28

Yes, as a matter of fact, I think we were very successful in doing that, and one of the ways, of course, is to use the regional districts along the way and having them help coordinate that kind of thing.

Léon Lebrun: 8:49

And of course, regional districts think about connecting communities. So that was a good place to start, and it was the regional districts that would bring the representatives from each community to say, okay, what do you think about the Trans-Canada Trail, in a way, and and at that time I was ready to suggest how we might connect, and so the community say, through Metro Vancouver Regional Districts and the Fraser Valley Regional District, where I live, they jumped at the idea, actually, jumped at the idea, actually, and and so the way we managed to get started is to first of all explore all the various trails that were in these communities and then go to the planners and say what, what do you think about this? And of course, you can't get the planners to work until you talk to the councils, so they would invite us planners to work on this with us. So they were outside all the way. As a matter of fact, when it came to selling the idea of the Trans-Canada Trail, there was no selling to do Right away. People say well, of course.

Peter Ladner: 10:46

And who paid for it? I'm assuming there would be a lot of different funding sources, but did you have to find money in order to attract interest from these municipalities and regional districts?

Léon Lebrun: 11:01

Well, it works in a variety of ways. For sure, you need funding to do this kind of thing, but when you're presenting to the communities, they have their own infrastructure and we would suggest what already exists to start with. So and say, well, now we need to close some gaps in between that and try to get these communities to close the gaps. And we're still doing that to this day.

Peter Ladner: 11:38

The Trans Canada Trail Foundation now is. They give out grants for people of all different types of organizations to do these trails and they are working on the parts of the Castle Garden Nelson Trail. They help pay for a separated bike lane between Pandora and Government Street, right in the city of Victoria, and they are they are working on a trail between Ladysmith and Chimenas all over the province. Would you say that the Trans-Canada Trail is now complete?

Léon Lebrun: 12:11

Definitely not, far from it, I would say. However, there are provinces that are doing better than us. Quebec is a real good example of that. Prince Edward Island has done a magnificent job. They have a complete trail from one end of the province to the other. In Quebec, they've completed their trail as well, so those are the only two provinces that really have successfully done that. In British Columbia, we have huge gaps and, as you probably know, in British Columbia we have a lot of public land. In British Columbia, we have a lot of public land, and so it's not just a question of trying to make these connections between these communities. Somehow we have to get government involved and so on, and a huge percentage of British Columbia is crown land or public land. Now, some of it is in parks and we take advantage of that, but on the whole, there are some really very big gaps. There are some really very big gaps, and to try to close those gaps would take an awful lot of funding and it takes a lot of resources.

Peter Ladner: 13:57

Well, you're a director of Trails BC and I know Trails BC has taken this on. What is it that Trails BC can do and is doing to help fill these gaps and fulfill the goal of the TransCanada Trail?

Léon Lebrun: 14:13

Well, like any organization, we do a lot of lobbying, of course, lobbying, of course. The biggest problem that we have is who will be using these trails and how compatible these trails are for all users. And we know that to this day. This is quite a challenge because, first of all, since we started this whole idea, trails were kind of sort of single-use. You know single uses. So you might have been on a bike trail, you might have been on a motorized dirt bike, but most of the people at that time thought of trails as hikers. So we were basically hikers. And so, with the TransCanada Trail, this whole idea of multi-use trail was kind of a new concept. It really did not exist before, and this is where we got the idea. Oh, with the multi-use trail, we can connect communities much better and, of course, we get the people involved. So that's what. So this is what we set out to do, this was our mission, and but a big part of our mission is that we wanted it to be a natural trail as much as possible. Again, like I mentioned before, when it comes to connecting these trails and the multi-use trail, you want to experience as much as possible.

Léon Lebrun: 16:14

Unfortunately, not all uses are compatible for all surfaces where we have trails. And you know, there are places where trails get overpopulated by walkers. As you know, going around Stanley Park, for example, we have a situation where we have a multi-use trail but we separated the cyclists from the walkers along the seawall. Well, that's kind of the idea that we had in mind, and wherever we are on urban areas, the idea of motorized trails such as ATVs and dirt bikes and 4x4s and all that kind of thing, we're not nearly as it's not that much of a problem most of the time, but the moment that we're on Crown Land we're into a different world. There's a kind of a free-for-all that goes out there and there's an idea that wherever you can run your vehicle you will do so. Then you will do so.

Peter Ladner: 17:46

I noticed in the literature provided by the Trans-Canada Trail Society that it originally started out as, and one of their goals is to promote and advocate for active transportation, and they very reluctantly it seems started allowing motorized transit, atvs and dirt bikes and such on sections of the trail. But, as you say, they make it very difficult. I think once a motorized vehicle gets on the trail they take it over because other people don't want to be on there when there's a motorcycle whipping by, or when it all gets chewed up by big tires and it's unsafe for hikers and so on. Up by big tires and it's unsafe for hikers, and so on. So it sounds like that this is a pretty tough issue. Who resolves this issue? Is it just hikers standing in the middle of the trail saying you shall not pass to dirt bikes? Or the dirt bikes just say, forget it, we're here and we're going to be here to stay.

Léon Lebrun: 18:38

We're here and we're going to be here to stay. Well, first of all, we have to come to the realization that we are incompatible most of the time when it comes to trails, but they can have their own trails and we have to understand that. We're in a big country here that has a lot of resource roads that people can use and we can share those resource roads. So that's a way of doing it. These trails, in other words, these motorized vehicles, might turn the trail into mud or potholes or tracks. If you take your bike on such a trail, you're not looking at the environment, you're paying attention to where you're riding, and not only that, it becomes so difficult that it discourages you from doing that kind of activity. So we are, in fact, incompatible for most situations situations, and so we would like to have a way of talking to each other much more. We have an example of this here in the Chilliwack River Valley. We started to build a trail up through the valley there and soon after, these ATVers and dirt bikers were right on our trail, turning the whole thing into mud mainly mud and potholes and all that kind of thing. So we actually I have to say that I did this on my own. I assembled the vehicle, people into a coffee shop and said we have to make up our minds here. We are incompatible and therefore we have to find a way to do this. And if we don't get together, if we don't talk to each other, of course governments and people don't want to get in the middle of these disputes and so if we talk to each other, then we're more likely to get support from governments. When I say support, I mean financial support and so on, because it serves more people. So we have done that. As an example, the Chilliwack River Valley. And what we've done is we're involved with an organization, not an organization, but with the government agency that's called Rec Sites and Trails BC. We started with an organization called LUCO and anyway we got together. We got the, in other words, this government agency, rack Sites and Trails BC, to bring us together and we're doing that to this day, and probably the only place in British Columbia where we're actually talking to each other. And what happens when that, what happened in this case is that, okay, we can share resource worlds. A lot of our resource worlds go through natural country, forests here and, of course, mining country and that kind of thing. So we agreed if we're not on a trail but on a resource road, we can share that and find ways of supporting each other.

Léon Lebrun: 23:12

By having done that, this particular government agency decided to pay attention to the motorized people more than they did before and they organized parking lots for them, allowed them areas where they can practice their sport and that kind of thing, a little bit like the downhill cyclists as well. Their types of trails are very difficult for well motorized people don't use those trails so much and they do it for a different purpose, so they are actually kind of difficult on walkers or hikers, so they need separated areas or they tend to be compatible, especially for walkers. So there's an example of where this can happen. There can be. We need to talk to each other.

Léon Lebrun: 24:28

So there's an organization called Outdoor Recreation Council of BC here who bring all these different recreations together. But we still haven't come to terms with the fact that, for instance, on rail trails. We think rail trails are perfect for cycling because of their grades and so on, and they appeal to all kinds of views, lots of abilities, and therefore it's perfect for cyclists in particular and of course, for walkers and in some cases with equestrians. So this is one of the reasons why rail corridors are just perfect for what we're doing.

Léon Lebrun: 25:26

Dikes and rail corridors have good surfaces to them and you know hard surfaces. But the problem that we have there is that they bring up all the rocks and they create potholes all over and they track it. So you know, we wouldn't mind doing it with them, with ATVers and dirt bikes, but for that purpose it makes the cycling nearly impossible for most people. People who love that kind of challenge, that's one thing, but the vast majority of people who want to tour and to explore their surrounding and appreciate their environment and so on, they don't want to fight potholes and that kind of thing. And, for that matter, in some places you have to walk your bike and push it through mud and that kind of thing.

Peter Ladner: 26:34

So it sounds like you're basically reinforcing what you said at the start, that these uses are incompatible. And so then it comes down to if we're on the side of the cyclists and the hikers and the active transportation people. You've mentioned lobbying, and it sounds as if the authorities are actually being lobbied harder or feel more pressure or support from the motorized people. They're going to put the parking lots in there and encourage them to go there. So again it comes back to this age-old thing of the cyclists and the other users have to get organized and make their voices heard.

Peter Ladner: 27:13

And also, I would think there would be a role for signage. I mean, if there was at least a sign that said no motorized transportation past this point, it would at least set up an expectation, if not result in direct action. But it's a step there. And I noticed that the Trans-Canada Trail Foundation does give money and grants. They gave five, almost five and a half million dollars in funding, which goes across all of Canada last year. It doesn't amount to very much in each jurisdiction, but they do give money for signage and some of these other ways that these trails can be prioritized for active transportation uses. Is that enough?

Léon Lebrun: 28:00

The quick answer is probably no, okay, mainly. Well, there was a time when we started all of this. We started this as a grassroots organization, and as a grassroots organization, we used to meet with people locally and it was the people who were making this happen, and that's what happened in the Chilliwack River Valley. It's the local people. We got together, we talked with the motorized people together. We talked with the motorized people. By the way, the motorized people are there policing our trails there and making sure that we can work together. So it can happen, but it seems to be happening rarely.

Peter Ladner: 29:04

You've written a critique of the Trans-Canada Trail situation and I gather you have yet to get a response from the foundation, but one of your main points is that it's no longer a grassroots organization. What would it take Supposing you didn't have to, or want to, wait for the central office to make decisions on this? Is there a way that people in BC could rise up or get involved at a grassroots level without needing approval or being part of the formal TransCanada Foundation?

Léon Lebrun: 29:37

Well, to start with, that's the way we started.

Peter Ladner: 29:41

Yeah.

Léon Lebrun: 29:41

And until about 2017. And since that time, the organization has changed and I can see why it's difficult to run a national organization to deal with all these different groups, because all of those groups are all different in every province. You know, we govern each other, we govern differently and so on, but that was at a time when we worked as partners. So Trails BC was a partner of the Trans-Canada Trail. We still aren't in a sense. In other words, they consult with us from time to time, but at that time it was ongoing to the point where they had an employee with each Transcanda Trail that worked with us to help with the coordination with the central office, to put up the mapping and all that kind of thing, and we used to meet with each other. So there was communications between the provinces and the central office a lot more. Now, what they're doing now is that they've got leaders that look after aspects of the Trans-Catatral it might be for the First Nations aspect, others it's for signage that someone else is for some other reason and they tend to connect directly with the communities that we were connected with before, and so they try to connect directly with all these communities right across Canada, asking them to do various things and they've done that in a way where we've kind of established this whole idea of the Trans-Canada Trail.

Léon Lebrun: 31:59

But at that time when we did it, we did it with a lot of people and we were meeting with people all the time. We had pavilions along the way where people would donate and put their names up and all those kinds of things. In other words, they were actively involved with the trail system. Now they depend an awful lot more on the community governments to do this work. Where we're working with regional districts or with the government, the provincial governments, we have a lot of public lands as well and there they're dependent on volunteers, but they're dealing directly with these government organizations rather than with organizations like ours that are true partners to make this happen. Just to give you an example of what I'm talking about this happen. Just to give you an example of what I'm talking about the city of Vancouver have you tried to follow the signage?

Peter Ladner: 33:16

To be honest, I've seen signs here and there, but short answer no, I've not ever felt, oh, I'm on this trail and it goes here now. It goes here now.

Léon Lebrun: 33:21

It goes here now it goes there, it's, it's nearly impossible, and the reason why is because, uh, it's been, it's, it's being directed by someone in nova scotia do you get the idea?

Peter Ladner: 33:37

I got it okay.

Léon Lebrun: 33:38

Those nova scotia people they're, they're well-meaning, they're trying very, very hard, but they're talking to a planner somewhere and saying you know they need this and they need that, but they don't do it Through the city of Vancouver. All the signage has practically disappeared like we're.

Peter Ladner: 34:06

We're at a bit of an impasse here, but, uh, I think we've got to wrap this up, but I I think that your example of how you've worked in it over the years is certainly one that should be held up and not forgotten and appreciated for how it can bring, as you say, the grassroots people into the, the movement, because, honestly, a trail of this complexity 29,000 kilometers across Canada I don't know how many in BC obviously cannot be managed by one or two people, or a few officers or a few leaders or something. It's got to be able to engage the community. Thanks, leon, and I appreciate your insights and guidance on getting this right and making it better and really making this TransCanada Trail all it could be. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Léon Lebrun: 34:49

A la prochaine.

Peter Ladner: 34:51

Merci. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

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Reach out to Léon directly at LebrunL@telus.net to get involved!

Curious about cargo e-bikes but hesitant to invest thousands without trying one first? North Vancouver has created an elegant solution that's transforming how families approach transportation decisions. All you need is a library card to check one out.

Duncan Wilcock, co-founder of Better North Shore, joins Bike Sense to share the story behind North Vancouver's groundbreaking cargo e-bike library program.

Release Date: April 30, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Even for those of us who are longtime cyclists, the world of e-bikes is sometimes a bit of a mystery. For people who are already e-bike riders, like myself, the world of cargo bikes is definitely a mystery, and there is somebody in North Vancouver who has dedicated a lot of time to come up with a program to help solve that mystery. His name is Duncan Wilcock. He's our guest today. Duncan, welcome to the podcast.

Duncan Wilcock: 0:58

Thank you, peter, pleased to meet you. Thanks for having me on.

Peter Ladner: 1:01

Could you introduce yourself and describe how you fit into the world of cargo e-bikes.

Duncan Wilcock: 1:08

My day job. I'm a sustainability consultant with Prism Engineering and in my passion projects I've co-founded an organization called Better North Shore here in North Vancouver and a few years ago I approached the city, approached the district of North Vancouver with an idea. I came up with an idea with a neighbor of how some of our neighbors were not using they were buying a second car and we were thinking how can we help them explore, look at options, transportation options, including cargo bikes. My neighbor had a cargo bike. He's a real hardcore cyclist, so his isn't even electric assist. But we realized wouldn't it be nice if you could go to the library and see them? It's actually Lynn Valley Library, it's a beautiful space and it's a square, if you saw them there outside and you could just take one from the library and test it out and maybe have it for a few days and see how it fits into your life. So that was the idea and we went from there.

Peter Ladner: 2:14

Could you, just before we get into it, what's it like riding a cargo bike? How is it different? You have a child. Describe what it's like for you to ride around with a heavy load and enter that world a little bit.

Duncan Wilcock: 2:28

That's right. I have a seven-year-old. He's been riding my bike since he was one year old. I got my bike around the time he was born. It is such a joy. He's a little boy and there's no better tool than an electric electric bike or cargo bike to get right next to a construction site. Sit there for hours and just watch the machines and the changes happen. It is just magical. He's right there with me, I can talk to him. I can stop immediately at the side of the road if he has questions. We're never stuck in traffic. We have no traffic Easy parking. I can talk to him. I can stop immediately at the side of the road if he has questions. We're never stuck in traffic. We have no traffic Easy parking. It's just fun.

Peter Ladner: 3:12

Now just describe the bike though, because your son is sitting behind you on this bike. He's not in a box out in front, is that right? And if he's behind, how do you make sure he doesn't fall off?

Duncan Wilcock: 3:21

Oh, so he's held in securely with bike seats. He's one from Thule, which makes a great one for a long time when he was in the younger years and now got a little bigger one that's made for his weight. He's about a 50-pound kid and I think it'll be good for another few years with him. So my bike is not a cargo bike. I don't personally ride a cargo bike. I have definitely explored them and looked closely at them and because I have one child I'm able to make it work. But the attraction of being able to put a bag of soccer balls in the front and take him to soccer practice, that's where my passion for cargo bikes has come from. And knowing that most of the other families I know have more than one kid, certainly you're trying to move more than one kid. You really kind of need the extra space that you can get with either a cargo bike with a long seat on the back or a box bike with a big box up front.

Peter Ladner: 4:21

You did a program to help introduce people to cargo bikes. Before we get into all of it, do you have any stories of somebody who got involved in your program and had some kind of life-changing experience, or at least wonderful experience?

Duncan Wilcock: 4:37

Here's one example that I saw. I was out riding in this beautiful trail called the Demonstration Forest in North Vancouver. It's about 10 kilometers of paved road that's through the woods and no car traffic on it. It's a great destination. And I was riding up there with a colleague from work who I was introducing to an e-bike her and her husband or partner I guess and we came across a family of five who were out. They'd borrowed the two e-bikes from the library, so the long tail two wheel version and the three wheel um, three wheel trike version, with the box up front for the less confident riders, and they had the three kids in these and they'd gone up the demo forest, had a picnic, just had a great family adventure. Another friend said they saw that same family because it was just such a joy to see later, down on what's called Grand Boulevard I don't know, they probably had a 20-kilometer adventure or something. It was just a joy to see.

Peter Ladner: 5:40

Now I presume that your dream goal in setting up this program again we'll get into the details shortly was that somebody like that would then go aha. I now understand how this could work and I will go and buy a bike, change my life, not buy that second car. Whatever. Has that indeed happened? You have some data now I'll ask you first Tell me about the program.

Duncan Wilcock: 6:10

It's a bike's available at a library, just one library, Multiple libraries. So the program started in September last year. It got, you know, from idea to get it, you know, going was you know a couple of years. It takes a little time for the government to sort of sort things out, Just pause for a second there.

Peter Ladner: 6:24

What has to be sorted out? You mentioned getting a counselor on side. Do you have to get a bike store on side? Do you have to get the library on side? How many partners need to be engaged for this to happen?

Duncan Wilcock: 6:36

So the initial idea was I took the idea to my councillor, jordan Beck, one of my councillors he's a great councillor here in the district of North Vancouver Rides a cargo bike himself with his two young kids. Is it one of the ones?

Peter Ladner: 6:50

with his name on the side of it, like another councillor in North.

Duncan Wilcock: 6:54

Vancouver? I haven't. It's not like Tony Valente that you're talking about. It's a different one from Tony's. I don't think Jordan has his name on it, but I bet when he goes out campaigning he does he certainly. He just uses it to get around town because it's the fastest way to get around town.

Duncan Wilcock: 7:08

Okay, so Jordan's on board. Then what? Yeah, he worked out how to take it to council as a report to council and secured some funding. How much District of North Bank? About $60,000 was the initial kind of estimate.

Duncan Wilcock: 7:23

I'd done a bunch of legwork to. You know, the initial concept was that the district would buy the library and the district would buy the bikes. But that, you know, after going through the, you know the government and working the mechanisms, working out the best way to do it, it was actually provided by Evo, the car sharing and bike sharing company that's the BCAA run. That's right, that's right. So lots of credit for them for stepping up. And so we met with the librarian. But none of this was necessary to get it going. Really, what happened was it went through staff and the staff at the District of North Van worked out okay. We'd like to do this, but we don't want to take on the liability of owning the bikes and sending them out. So they wanted to get an external contractor. So they got an external contractor. They put on the request for proposals and all that. And that's when BCAA, I think, stepped up and was the successful proponent Is BCAA operating.

Peter Ladner: 8:19

Do they have this capacity throughout the province? If somebody in Salmon Arm called them up and said we want to do, this.

Duncan Wilcock: 8:26

I believe they are interested in taking it further. Okay, yeah, their representative has given me that indication. I'm sure they have to look at it on a case-by-case basis, but this was a pilot, certainly a pilot for the District of North Van and it's a pilot for for bcaa. But it's um. It is through their main app. So if you have the evo app on your phone, you can just go to the evo return tab and see the the cargo bikes available there are.

Duncan Wilcock: 8:51

There were four libraries when they started in september. I think there are two currently. They've got a couple of construction issues going on, so they're right now they're at the Lynn Valley Library here in the district of North Van, and then we have the city of North Van which also has at their library the Lonsdale Library and there's two bikes available at both locations. There should be another two bikes available at those other locations in the months ahead. How much were they used? So I mentioned it starting in September kind of a late season start really and the summary from staff was they were blown away with the adoption. It was tremendous. They had 136 total trips in the two late season months of September to October 2024. 1,500 kilometers were ridden. That's more than two trips a day, with only seven bikes on offer. 88 individual people took part and 92% of the 88 riders were infrequent or occasional riders, meaning they ride less than three trips per year to date in September.

Peter Ladner: 9:57

Are you talking about riding cargo bikes or riding any bikes?

Duncan Wilcock: 10:02

Riding any bikes.

Peter Ladner: 10:02

That's the the my reading of it and do you have any data on what they did afterwards? Did it change their right, their transportation habits?

Duncan Wilcock: 10:12

I don't have that data yet. Um, I, I've got some. I've got an anecdote from, uh, uh, a couple of bike shops. One that comes to mind is the Lynn Valley bike shop. They certainly sold a cargo bike to a family that said, oh, we went and tried it out and buying a cargo bike tried out at the library and they're buying a cargo bike.

Peter Ladner: 10:32

So what are the barriers to buying a cargo bike? Because I know somebody who had one and it broke down, need to be replaced, and she said, oh my goodness, I don't even know where to start. Like, how do I assess models and test?

Duncan Wilcock: 10:46

them out and know the costs. I'm in the middle of writing an article on this right now, actually for our Better North Shore website. So you've decided to buy an e-bike. I think you need a place to store it, a safe place to store it. That's the first one and that's a, you know, that's that's a real motivator for me. I don't have a garage. Um, I uh, you know I have a, uh, a lockable utility trailer is what I use and, um, um, knowing whether it's going to fit in there, how long? The bikes are a bit longer. So that's a part of the fitting it into your life. Where are you going to store it? Do you have a safe place to store it? No, it's not going to be stolen. End of trip facilities is the, is the the term, as I'm sure you know, and hub cycling has a great uh pdf on on good end of trip facilities. Um, cost is a barrier. You know they're not. They're more expensive than a regular e-bike what's the cost range?

Peter Ladner: 11:34

what? What's the minimum you you'd probably pay for? A decent one yeah, they're.

Duncan Wilcock: 11:40

You know I see a lot of people what they call on the, the rad power, they call them dad power bikes and that's what jordan back rides and those, those I think you can get into. For you know, 2500, 3000, they're long tail. Long tail tend to be a little easier and may seem you know some people. The initial take is that's really expensive. But as soon as you put it beside the price of a car if it's a car replacer it's really it's a bargain.

Peter Ladner: 12:01

I just paid four hundred dollars to get my car service routine servicing yeah, twelve thousand dollars is average cost a car for everyone per year.

Duncan Wilcock: 12:10

You know we're talking about purchase price. And then no insurance. No, no ongoing. You know usage insurance, maybe some theft insurance if you like. Um, and then, uh, you know you can buy. There are really nice ones with particularly the box, more the european style, the box bike on the front.

Peter Ladner: 12:25

It can go up to the 10 000 mark are these widely available at bike shops, even, let's say, on the north shore? Do you have to order?

Duncan Wilcock: 12:31

them especially. Um, there are a number of bike shops on the north shore I could name that have them. I can think of three or four, four offhand. I know of several over in the city of Vancouver as well, so they're readily available. I believe it's part of a wave that's coming. All this micro mobility and electric bikes really just so game changing.

Peter Ladner: 12:55

Do you have any data on how many people here in, let's just say, bc Data on how many people here in, let's just say, bc use cargo bikes compared to other jurisdictions? Because I know I was recently in New York City and there was a whole world of couriers who just ride e-bikes and cargo bikes around. And we see pictures, of course, of Copenhagen, with the moms all lined up at the coffee shop with the cargo bikes all parked outside while they go and have coffee with their kids or whatever.

Duncan Wilcock: 13:22

Canada Post and FedEx have been using them for deliveries in the city of Vancouver, downtown Victoria, calgary, for a few years. I don't have any data data specifically to your question. No, I can tell you. Was it? 12 or 13 people turned up to the cargo bike race that we held here in North Vancouver, uh, in August 2023. That was a real hoot, got some great photos and got a news article about it. Uh, it was, uh, it was um, it was uh. It's worth telling about it. It's a. It's a mixed um. It's inspired by one in Portland. That's a. It was a emergency response dressed up as a cargo bike race. So this, this, so the scenario is the earthquake, the big one, has just happened. It's three days into the earthquake. You're running low on water and medical supplies. You have a cargo bike. You can help Because you're with bridges out and that sort of thing. It's actually a very resilient vehicle. You could manhandle it across the look some of the rivers if we needed to.

Peter Ladner: 14:21

I know my son and daughter-in-law were living in Whistler and calculated that in the event of a fire there, with one road out north, one road south, it would take about 10 hours for all the cars to finally find their way out. And he had a cargo bike loaded up with his emergency bag and figured he could just slide up the side of the backed up cars and get his way out of there. So the pilot was completed and you've got the data. Is it going to continue?

Duncan Wilcock: 14:57

So the pilot isn't completed. It was in two parts. It took a pause over the winter months, paused at the end of October, probably because it can be pretty hard on the bikes with the salt, and it's just how they define the pilot. The bikes are back on the street, so the pilot is ongoing until end of August. So it's exciting and I would love to.

Duncan Wilcock: 15:17

One of the great things about the person who put this program together was that he told me he made it open sourced so that it's very easy for another local government here in BC or elsewhere perhaps to copy the model, copy his documents, work with BCAA or an RFP for another proponent, and I'd love to see this spread elsewhere throughout the province. Where would someone go to get that open source information? I'd be happy to take. Yeah, I'd be happy for someone to contact me and I can connect them with the staff member at the District of North Van. Okay, they could also contact the District of North Van. They have a yeah, they have an email. If you search, if you Google cargo bikes at District of North Van, it'll have an email address for you there as well. We'll put that in the show notes so people can see. Yeah, yeah, we can put my email address in the show notes and everything too.

Peter Ladner: 16:15

Do you have any recommendations of A box versus a long tail versus a trailer, which I assume are all different ways of carrying cargo and bike?

Duncan Wilcock: 16:26

It's a great point. In the cargo bike race we had bikes with trailers. I have a bike with trailers so I've kind of used mine as a cargo bike. I've definitely explored and looked at buying a dedicated cargo bike. I've chosen to stick with the standard length bikes for some other reasons. I think, like a lot of these questions, it depends on your needs, really exploring it.

Duncan Wilcock: 16:47

I think the cargo bike box up front is the I don't know most versatile. There's a real joy to having your child or the people that you're talking to just in front of you. So having the box in front and you can engage with them better and see your cargo, see if your box of soccer balls or your bags of cement or whatever it is you're trying to move are falling out. The lower cost alternative and most popular alternative is the lower cost one and the most popular around North America is the longer tail. So that's one of the options offered at the library.

Duncan Wilcock: 17:21

It's not just a district North fan, you know. I think believe it's not limited to just people who live in the district North fan. Other people from Metro van can try these out through the Evo app. And yeah, the bike trailer is I prefer having having. I personally don't find the bike trailer as as as I find a little less less versatile than having it all in one, having your kid on the back with you or, uh, or your cargo on on with you. So, but it's, uh, it's a less expensive alternative. It's one I use, so that covers the range.

Peter Ladner: 17:56

I can remember seeing in Copenhagen families where I counted four kids in one of those boxes and one mother was riding them around. So let's talk about the riders for a moment. You come to the library. Do you have to have any certification? I know there's a certification program for cargo bike delivery people. They have to learn, pass some kind of a test. Do you have to be specially fit? Do you have to be know something about riding e-bikes? Is it difficult to learn? How do they teach?

Duncan Wilcock: 18:26

no, no, it's, it's not difficult. Um, and you know, I, I can understand the reason for the, the cargo one you're talking about. I mean, on your podcast recently about cycling without age, they talked about, you know, carrying two adults 500 kilograms the thing's going to behave differently. But carrying a, a few kids, uh, you know more like two adults 500 kilograms, the thing's going to behave differently. But carrying a few kids, uh, you know more like a hundred, a hundred pounds of weight. A hundred pounds of weight, uh, was 500 pounds, was probably the got the unit wrong there. Um, so, uh, a hundred pounds of weight doesn't make as much difference. Um, they all.

Duncan Wilcock: 18:58

All the person needs to do is, um, I think I've created an Evo account, so download that Evo app, which the instructions I guess we can put in the show notes. But also, if you search for Distries of North Van cargo bikes and they are available in the city of North Van as well It'll give you the instructions. There's no, you just turn up, it's free, there's no charge for taking them and there's no test or license. How long can you take them for? You can take them for as long as for a full library day. You book how long you're going to take it. They don't stay out overnight.

Peter Ladner: 19:33

Are these bikes all or typically pedal electric, where you have to pedal to stimulate the motor, or do some of them just have a Correct? They're pedal electric, no, just straight up throttles.

Duncan Wilcock: 19:44

Neither of the ones that they have are throttle. These are really nice, high quality bikes. The one is I think it's made by Specialized is a long tail two-wheeler, and then the three-wheel box bike is I don't recall the brand, but is a really high quality one. Yes, they're pedal electric. To finish my last question, I think so you can get up to nine hours of an adventure. You know if you went from sort of 10 am till 7 pm or something like that Time for a nice ride down to the demonstration forest and a picnic and the return trip Picnic and a trip down to the shipyards for ice cream.

Duncan Wilcock: 20:23

Some of the data that returned in the first couple of months of it showed some sample trips and they're really wide-ranging. They go all over our area and, as you can imagine, the North Shore is a very hilly place. We go from zero to 300 meters of elevation and people have enjoyed those trips. Do you know anything?

Peter Ladner: 20:43

about the users? Are they typically recreational users, commuters, businesses?

Duncan Wilcock: 20:51

I think the main thing I know about them is that 92% of them are, you know, infrequent or occasional riders, so I think they're probably not commuters. They're, you know, recreational and e-bike curious, cargo bike curious.

Peter Ladner: 21:07

So what would be your dream goal for this program? Presumably seeing it work in North Van, and then Could you see this working everywhere could see it working everywhere.

Duncan Wilcock: 21:18

I'd say my two dream goals are for it to continue in North Van. It's a pilot, so at the moment it will end after a year. I'd love to see it continue here. I think it's already proven itself successful and I think it's going to bring a lot of joy. And beyond that, I'd love to see it spread elsewhere in BC and beyond. I think it's another. Libraries are such a fantastic resource and I got to credit Jacqueline Van Dyke, the head of the DNV public library. We met with her and spoke with her and she immediately saw the.

Peter Ladner: 21:53

She wasn't an e-bike rider, but the whole conversation turned would require $60,000 to make this program work, and then BCAA stepped in. If you were to do it again or extend it, what would be the cost to the municipality?

Duncan Wilcock: 22:11

So that was the initial budget. I don't know the costs to the municipality. The initial budget included purchasing three cargo bikes and some maintenance contracts and things. So that was the initial concept, I suspect. With having BCAA do it it was probably less expensive per bike and maybe that's why there's more bikes than we initially proposed. So I know the District of North Van also partnered with the City of North Van, so that's why we have it at both libraries. So it's an idea that spread to both North Vancouver municipalities. If it weren't, for this program?

Peter Ladner: 22:44

are you aware of any other cargo bikes that are available through your typical bike rental, like bike rentals from a bike store? That's a great question. Bike share program.

Duncan Wilcock: 23:00

I am not aware of other cargo bike rental or I think only if you're considering purchasing one here in North Van. I mean, I hear about them overseas. I think the city of Freiburg in Germany just has them on the side of the road for free use when you need to move, which is amazing. But I think this is a great step in that.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

Duncan, congratulations on this program, and I know you wanted to have a whole bunch of other people on here because you don't want to take all credit for it, but we can only really work with one person. So I'm glad to hear it from you and I'm glad you're happy to credit the other people.

Duncan Wilcock: 23:39

You know I'm just a guy with the idea, like, if I can briefly mention, jordan Back, the counselor, brenda James, who came up with the idea, michelle Lamb, who worked hard on it, mac Fitzgerald, the other key person at the District of North Van there's probably some people I'm missing Jacqueline Van Dyke, the head of the District of North Van Public Library. You know, ideas are one thing, but execution is really what matters, and Brendan and Michelle really executed on this idea, made it a reality. So they deserve all the credit for this and I'm just tickled to see it happening. It just brings joy to my face, just like Jordan's, whenever I see anybody on one or when I use them myself.

Duncan Wilcock: 24:13

I've used them a few times myself to take my son to soccer and to see precisely would it fit in the bike storage space I have and how does it feel? I mean, my little guy was like, no, no, I want to take the three-wheeler, let's take the trike. I'm like, no, I want to ride the two-wheeler, but okay, we'll take the three-wheeler, that's what you want to do, so fun.

Peter Ladner: 24:31

Well, I remember something we learned at the Active Transportation Summit about how the key for all these programs is political will, and it sounds like you had some people both on your council and in your bureaucracy and, dare I say, in the library system, who had the political will to push this forward and carry it through. Do you think that would be difficult in some communities?

Duncan Wilcock: 24:54

Oh, of course, you know there's politics. This is different depending on the people involved. You know I should also give a lot of credit to the, the counselors of the district of North Van, who unanimously voted to allocate some money and give this a try. So there was no pushback from your council. There were questions, you know. There were questions. You know I think Jordan did a good job of of putting together it in a way and we, you know, price it out and you know it was a a motion to explore it and it was a motion to explore it and it was explored and made a reality.

Peter Ladner: 25:26

Well, with the possible demise of subsidies for electric vehicles that we're hearing about, the BC Cycling Coalition is actively advocating for a repeat or expansion of rebates for e-bikes. A repeat or expansion of rebates for e-bikes, and this would, I think, be a very big selling point in helping. Once people have this introductory ability through the the library rental program, I could foresee a much bigger intake uptake of cargo bike use, which would enable so many more things to be done with a bike in a more affordable, healthy, happy way and, from all I've heard, kids really like them too. It's more fun riding around a bike than in the back of a car.

Duncan Wilcock: 26:14

It sure is, sure is. I feel like my son has a tremendous connection with his community and awareness of space from all the bike riding that we've done around our community together and it just makes our city better. Libraries have so much to give the community in more than just books. They have carbon dioxide sensors, they have 3D printers. At our library they have a podcast recording studio and a video recording studio, and this is yet another thing that they can introduce to the community that it's just a win, win, win.

Peter Ladner: 26:45

Thank you, duncan. Thank you for your work in this, Thank you for your inspiration, and I really hope other communities are listening and able to take up your offer of the open source access to how to do this and make their cities bigger, small, better places. Thank you, peter. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

Contact Duncan at duncan@wilcock.ca
or at BetterNorthShore.ca 

More info for people wanting to start up a cargo bike lending program in their own municipality:

• DNV Libraries Cargo Bike Program

• District of North Vancouver Cargo Bike Pilot Program

• The Joy of E-Biking on the North Shore

Nick van Egmond, CEO of Bicycle Broker, introduces 'Sundays' — a comprehensive insurance solution designed specifically for cyclists that covers theft and damage for all types of bikes across Canada. 

Traditional home and tenant insurance typically demands a high deductible and leaves gaps in bicycle coverage. This new product provides 24/7 protection both on and off your property, with much lower deductibles. Nick also offers a few pro tips on new ways to keep your bike safe and recover a stolen bike.

Find out all about Sundays specialist bike insurance at sundaysinsurance.ca. You can also visit bicyclebroker.ca to learn more about bicycle insurance options.  

Release date: April 3, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. We all know somebody who's bought a new bike and is afraid to ride it, not because of an accident that might happen, but that it might be stolen. When you've spent $3,000 on a bicycle if you buy an e-bike, it may be more than that this is obviously a very warranted concern. We talk a lot about ICBC and accident liability, but this whole other world of insurance and worry from cyclists has until now not been addressed. But now there is an answer, and to give you that answer and explain how it works, we've invited on the broadcast today Nick van Egmond, who's the CEO of Bicycle Brokers, and they have a new product that we think you're going to be pretty interested in. Nick, welcome to the podcast.

Nick van Egmond: 1:17

Thank you so much, peter, excited to be here. I'm chatting with you in March, right before the snow melts, so this is a good time to kind of talk about the spring cycling season and what's new, what's available to help the bicycle community.

Peter Ladner: 1:30

We're going to get into what you offer in a moment, but perhaps you could just tell us how you got into this.

Nick van Egmond: 1:36

Well, it kind of started as I was racing bikes and traveling and having some insurance issues a lack of availability for emergency medical, leaving Canada at one point and doing races to then saying you know, that could be a way I wind down my bike career and like a new entrepreneurial venture and something to give back and to help my beloved bike community. Why don't I see what it would look like to build an insurance resource? It seems like enough people have questions or concerns and there's not a central point. So bicycle broker kind of came from that and the first thing I started to talk about was travel insurance, which got me answering a lot of questions with oh, I don't have something to cover your bike. I can cover you If you go to a hospital, you leave Canada, there's an accident, there's an ambulance, et cetera.

Nick van Egmond: 2:30

There was great products if you were the broker and you knew what to offer, but then they're like well, what about my bike? What if it's in transit? What if it's stolen? On this trip I've been planning and saving for for years and it kind of irked me to go there isn't anything great. We can see how this works through home insurance. This is going back a couple of years and, yeah, I've been working on a solution for that since.

Peter Ladner: 2:57

What is your solution?

Nick van Egmond: 2:59

The solution is a new brand on our platform called Sundays, and it's actually been operating for the better part of 15 years around the world, in other countries, and so our company, bicycle Broker, is now the conduit to bring that to Canada. An easy online click and review within seconds what is out there for your bike and how do I customize a policy for my individual needs, all the bikes in my household and how they're covered, not just while they're in the household, but how they're covered 24-7 and, if needed, worldwide.

Peter Ladner: 3:36

So, just to be clear, this is not just for racers, it's not just for people traveling, it's for anybody who owns a bike and is concerned about the financial loss from damage or theft of that bike. Is that right?

Nick van Egmond: 3:47

Absolutely. This is for all types of bikes. Definitely. E-bikes are a big demographic for us and whether you're a commuter with a couple hundred dollar bike right up to it's replaced your car and you've bought the highest end bicycle that is out there Like, we want to chat with you and show you what's what's available to protect your investment and your beloved bike.

Peter Ladner: 4:14

I've always operated. I have house insurance. I don't know how people who rent have house insurance, If that's also something they have. I know you can get insurance for your furniture and so on, but I always thought that would sort of cover it. Am I wrong if my bike was stolen from my home?

Nick van Egmond: 4:32

No, not wrong. I mean, that's been the best available option in Canada for decades, right, if you have that conversation with your home insurance broker and you kind of treat your bike the same way you would a piece of jewelry, some fine art hey, I bought something expensive. If it goes missing from my house, um, you know what's, how does your home insurance respond? And so a very similar, whether you rent or own a home, a very similar piece, right, it's it's kind of boxed in where it's just treated the same as your television set, or so if your home burns down or if there's a burglary and your bike is vandalized, if your bike is stolen off of the property, that's kind of all we had. And so the thing for us is, well, that doesn't really cover the full spectrum of how you use your bike. Your exposure is back to 24 7. You know what happens if the bike is stolen while it's at my office, while I'm at the coffee shop. And then, to take it a step further, what about damage to the bike?

Nick van Egmond: 5:36

With the rise of the values of bikes we have e-bikes, as you mentioned in the intro three, five, five. I mean we're helping customers who are buying $20,000. Beautiful bicycles. So the damage that could happen in a crash that doesn't fall under warranty can be detrimental financially. So how do we offer an all-encompassing coverage?

Nick van Egmond: 6:01

Every single quote you would look at on Sundays has damage and theft across canada automatically in the base policy, and then from there you're making some custom tweaks which go back to that question of is it just for racers?

Nick van Egmond: 6:14

No, you have to actually like click a button and pay a little bit more to cover yourself in races and big events like grand fondos. Um, and the same thing with the basic policy will cover you across canada, because not everybody, especially with an e-bike right now, we're really not set up to fly with them. You know you got to probably leave your battery at home and then see about trying to either purchase or rent one when you travel. So we're not there yet. Um, so you can click a button to kind of take your policy worldwide and there's just a couple more buttons Like I. I'd say, go through the website is a good way to educate yourself with what are these different functions and you need to compare it more like car insurance on your bike than than what you did previously, which was like a home insurance dynamic of just your personal property.

Peter Ladner: 7:02

Could you give us an example of the gap you're trying to fill between what ICBC will cover, say, you have an accident, your bike is banged or destroyed by a car or truck on one side, and what the house insurance will cover for theft on the other side? What's missing and how are you helping out on that?

Nick van Egmond: 7:25

Well, I think in that dynamic we want to and this flows through to how you need to look at this new type of bicycle insurance is it doesn't have anything to do with your house insurance and isolating that can give you a lower deductible. So if you have to make a claim out of pocket on your home insurance, you could have a $1,500 bike and a $1,000 deductible. And if the only thing that happens is, yeah, during some type of commuting accident, your bike is damaged, and then you have that mathematical scenario you end up not making a claim, your bike is damaged and you just have to absorb that cost, whereas with our new program, yeah, your deductible is between $150 and a maximum of $350. So it's good in that respect, the fact that it's separate from your home insurance and you're not calling them is a positive. And then there are a lot of dynamics to where, yeah, icbc is not going to respond to the damages to a bicycle right.

Nick van Egmond: 8:29

In a no-fault system, those are oftentimes part of the claim that gets left out. It's more about pain and suffering than it is about the loss of a piece of property. It would fall back on that individual who's riding the bike to have some other type of insurance, and so it fills that gap. You don't have to have ICBC. You don't have to have ICBC. You don't have to have home insurance If the most important thing to you is your bike. You just have to have a Sunday's policy and then that takes primary spot. You deal with us and we walk you through the claim process.

Peter Ladner: 9:06

Can you give us a rough idea of how much a cyclist might be paying to get the necessary minimum of insurance coverage for this gap you've just described?

Nick van Egmond: 9:20

I can. I think it comes up on the site within seconds and it is based on the purchase price of the bike. So, said a different way, I mean we're definitely helping people that are paying less than $10 a month on an entry-level bicycle to to have that extra level of peace of mind and go and ride more, um. But on the opposite end, like yeah, we, we work with families that have a collection of bicycles and e-bikes um, you know that could have $50,000 of value in their garage, just a bicycles, right? So it's full spectrum with us.

Peter Ladner: 10:00

So if I were to shift from my house insurance to your product, would I get a deduction in my house insurance? Would it cost me less?

Nick van Egmond: 10:08

Great question. I would absolutely think that everyone should have that dialogue of if Sundays make sense and you purchase one of those on one or all of your bicycles, you would want to contact your home or your renter's insurance, because if you're paying extra to cover your bicycles on the home policy and then you've got extra coverage with Sundays, you want to eliminate what's on your home policy and try and negotiate a lower price. Absolutely Like don't double insure yourself.

Peter Ladner: 10:41

So you mentioned to me that you don't just insure the bike but you could also insure the I don't know a helmet that got broken or some parts of the bike that were damaged, or if somebody was carrying something on a bike. Is that covered by insurance? Just get into a little bit of the range of what would be covered that a cyclist might be worried about.

Nick van Egmond: 11:06

Yeah, certainly, because this is an insurance designed by cyclists to make it as comprehensive and useful as possible. It thinks about what we all do with our bikes. Some of us put it on an airplane so the policy can respond to while it's in transit. Some of us buy pretty fancy accessories a helmet, nice cycling kit. We deal with a lot of head.

Peter Ladner: 11:29

Sorry if my Garmin computer got wrecked, fell over and it smashed. Is that the kind of thing that would be covered?

Nick van Egmond: 11:36

As long as it's triggered by damage or theft to the whole bicycle, and that is a part of the claim. Absolutely Right. So you've, your bike, is in transit in your car and unfortunately it gets stolen. Someone steals a nice helmet, a pair of shoes and and a garment and you've added accessories onto your policy. You're going to get covered for the bike and those accessories. So it's a very quick, easy website and dynamic. To just add that and then I can expand on a little bit more. Like I said, it really thinks about cyclists on on. You know an entry level right up to.

Nick van Egmond: 12:12

If you're listening to this and you've got that collection of bikes and you've been riding for a long time, you know a lot of us sometimes have a second set of wheels.

Nick van Egmond: 12:21

You might have this pair that's really fancy and you only use it on big rides, or you might have one that's got fast wheels to get you to work and then some bigger fat tires for the weekend so you can go play in the dirt and you can click and add a set of wheels. Bicycle Broker works a lot with bike retailers. Most of our business is the business insurance side of the cycling industry and one thing we work together on is how do we make this an easy process to put in front of people on new bike day and one of the ways we incentivize that is, if you have one of these policies on a bike within the first 60 days of purchase, you're able to click a button on our website and eliminate depreciation. So, as long as you have a Sunday's policy, if you put it on there when the bike is new, that's just another functionality of it to kind of incentivize people to look at one of these policies seriously, because depreciation can happen very quickly on a bicycle.

Peter Ladner: 13:28

Could you describe your company's relationship with Project 529 and tell people what that is?

Nick van Egmond: 13:34

company's relationship with Project 529 and tell people what that is. Yeah, most definitely so. We're in a position to. We're kind of at the end right. I'm covering through insurance, worst case scenario Bike is very damaged, stolen, et cetera.

Nick van Egmond: 13:47

But we work as closely as we can with anybody who's proactive with bike theft, and so registry of a bike is super key to that Part of our process.

Nick van Egmond: 13:59

Even if you buy one of these policies, the second you complete the sale, your document sent to you via email, if you haven't already done it, register it on the Project 529 platform.

Nick van Egmond: 14:10

So if it does get stolen, 529 is I treat it like a VIN number on a car and if that bike is recovered after a theft, most likely by a police station, they're able to log into a 529 platform which is shared between every owner of the bike who's registered their bike and police stations and police officers across all of North America to then track that recovered bike back to its original owner. That's huge to reduce the financial effects of a bike theft and to reunite the bike with its owner. It's a beautiful, beautiful program that we fully support. It's integrated into our process, not mandatory, but really, um, really pushed by by our team, in the same way that we're starting to to work a lot with and promote bicycle trackers. Um, just today in the UK they're looking at legislation to bring bicycle trackers more to the forefront because bike theft there is like, yes, it's absolutely a problem in Canada, but the UK is seeing numbers that are astronomical just with the volume of bike thefts.

Peter Ladner: 15:32

And how does a bike tracker work?

Nick van Egmond: 15:34

just with the volume of bike thefts.

Nick van Egmond: 15:36

And how does a bike tracker work?

Nick van Egmond: 15:37

So a bike tracker would be whether you're using, if you think about the Apple, airtag, or a lot of them now have a proprietary piece of hardware and software.

Nick van Egmond: 15:46

So when we talked earlier about bike registry, you're kind of doing the same thing. You're registering your tracker, which is a little piece of hardware that can be hidden on the bicycle, and then if it is stolen, imagine it has a gps air tag, if you will, and that proprietary software is how you can connect and contact police, track the bike and aid the recovery. You know it's not to go vigilante and chase down bike thieves and you know do that yourself, but it is to aid the recovery of your stolen bike. And then again you would kind of take one of those trackers and definitely utilize 529 to kind of complete that piece, not without the other piece of this which we have to touch on. And as we evolve our program, the more expensive your bike, the more we would want to see a better lock used. So we are developing a kind of Canada-wide approved lock system just for the promotion of better quality locks and how to lock and speak about that through our blogs and our communication and training.

Peter Ladner: 16:57

So would you require your customers to have one of your approved locks and or a tracking chip in their bike and or registration with Project 529?

Nick van Egmond: 17:12

Um locks are required in certain scenarios to prevent your claim being declined, which is let's use the example that a lot of us know would be I ride my bike to a coffee shop. You need to lock it outside. You know, we we do have, like, there's pretty intense wording around the likelihood of getting your full claim paid if you're not even locking up your bike while it's outside. Um, so that one is, yes, it is a prerequisite. The bike trackers and registries no, they're. I mean, I don't know if you've personally, or the listeners out there, have gone through a bike theft. It is mentally it really tough, and so just how nice would it be to get your bike back.

Peter Ladner: 18:03

So we have to promote that, we have to talk about it, but it's not mandatory, no, Speaking of getting your bike back in Project 529, what can you tell us about their success in retrieving stolen bikes? I know I've registered. I can't even remember if I paid. I don't think I did, but I'm never sure if that's going to make a difference if my bike disappears and it would have to be found by the police who look on the registry of 529. Is that how it works?

Nick van Egmond: 18:32

Yeah, correct. I mean, in the case of any theft right over a certain amount, you're going to call the police and have that police report. And if you can add to the police report, my bike is already registered on five to nine and a lot of people do it a little reactively of I just had a bike stolen and then they post it on social media and talk to their friends. I watch those posts all the time and one of every two comments is if you haven't already done it, register it on 529. So that is kind of common knowledge amongst cyclists. But go ahead.

Peter Ladner: 19:10

You can register after the theft.

Nick van Egmond: 19:13

Absolutely, you can do that reactively.

Nick van Egmond: 19:16

This isn't like insurance where you need to have the policy active before the theft or the damage. For anybody listening here who might very recently or in their network, be involved in a bike theft, if you have your proof of purchase, serial numbers, some descriptions, maybe a recent photo, you're able to upload all of those on 529 and aid the recovery of your bike. Absolutely Right, because, like the scenarios that are out there are, you know, let's use downtown Vancouver as an example. That's where the bike theft begins, but it's generally moved as quick as possible to another town, to another province, or it starts a worldwide tour. It could get recovered in another country and 529 is a now global safety net for recovered bikes that can slowly get that back to you, right? I mean a bike could end up in Mexico from Vancouver very easily. I mean the stats on the 529 site are pretty alarming. Two million North Americans per year are involved in bike theft. You know that's including the big population of the United States, two million cyclists we're talking about victims, not thieves.

Peter Ladner: 20:31

Correct, okay.

Nick van Egmond: 20:33

Yeah, it might be tough to count the amount of thieves, but, yeah, two million victims of bike theft and the market itself for the black market of bicycles is half a billion dollars annually. That's staggering numbers, right? So that's why we talk so much about these proactive measures.

Peter Ladner: 20:52

I thought that when bikes get stolen, they get taken apart and the parts get sold. Is that not the case?

Nick van Egmond: 21:00

I mean, that's a question for a criminal. No, that is the case. I mean the way we look at it is, if the bike is recovered, great, there's still most likely going to be a claim on your insurance because the bike could be spray painted or some of these nice parts could have been taken off and swapped with lesser parts, devaluing your bike or treat it as vandalism. And so every bike that is recovered, we push our policyholders to please go into your trusted local bike shop, have your mechanic do an assessment so that we know for sure that you know is there a claim? How do we make you whole again, right? How do we get that bike back to the same condition it was at before it was taken?

Peter Ladner: 22:02

Nick, you mentioned that this is a common type of insurance in other countries in the world. Why has it taken so long to come to Canada and how prevalent is it and how popular is it in other countries?

Nick van Egmond: 22:11

I mean, I look to the UK as my North Star. It tends to be the home of insurance. You know, people know, maybe like Lloyd's of London or it's where there's new products are made, and so if we look at this type of specialist bike insurance, the standalone kind of coverage that we're doing through Sundays in Canada if we were on this podcast in the UK we would have more than a dozen options for cyclists to look at, to go. I want to compare this bike insurance company versus that one. Who's got better rates? Who's got better coverage? Am I a part of a club or does my local retailer have some type of deal and discount? It's a big infrastructure. Or another way to look at it is you're a cyclist in the UK and the insurance on your bicycle comes from a special insurance policy for bicycles. They're a decade past thinking about my bike is insured under my home. Those days are gone. There's been a polar shift. Right, the bike insurance rules. It's that, or people just risk it and they pay out of pocket if something happens.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

Well, it sounds pretty exciting and I'm excited for you because I know this is a whole new chapter in your life and this product is now available and we're going to put all the links up on our show notes. Is there anything else you think people need to know about the gaps that this fills or the products that you offer that we haven't already talked about?

Nick van Egmond: 23:53

I think the best thing for the public is to, yeah, visit our websites, because it does link to a live team of Canadian brokers. We all ride bikes and we're here to answer those questions. There's a toll-free number set up, live chat email. We're actually looking for feedback from the public, right? This is a brand new type of insurance and that's not always easy for people to get, so we're here to answer questions. If you're challenged with how it works, give us a call.

Peter Ladner: 24:25

Does it apply equally to all places in BC? What if I'm in some smaller community? Will I get the same service?

Nick van Egmond: 24:35

We are currently operating and offering this coverage, which is identical to all residents of british columbia, alberta, ontario. Later this spring we will open manitoba and nova scotia. Going into next year the hope is to be across all of canada. But yeah, it's the same. There's just difference of taxation in. Yeah, it's the same. There's just difference of taxation in your province. That's it. Otherwise, same product. So this podcast could go nationwide. I hope it does.

Peter Ladner: 25:05

And you're sitting there in the Sunshine Coast masterminding all this. Do you have a network of brokers around? Let's just talk about BC. Does it matter where they're located?

Nick van Egmond: 25:22

Well, our brokers are all located relatively close to Vancouver and they're all licensed to work with any resident of British Columbia, so it doesn't really matter. We promote back to transportation even within the company. It's a work from home, digital right, so you're not going to a bicycle broker office to buy an insurance policy. You're dealing with over the phone, um or or through our website communications.

Peter Ladner: 25:50

If I remember of a biking club, would there be an opportunity for the whole club to get some kind of a discount deal with you?

Nick van Egmond: 25:59

That's where I want people to connect directly with myself through the website. We are, this summer, starting to release partnership programs for larger organizations, clubs and a retailer program. Most definitely, yeah, so that's all coming soon. You can use our website. There's a contact at bicyclebrokerca email address and just subject line partnerships.

Peter Ladner: 26:26

Well, nick. Thank you so much for filling us in on this. It's a pretty exciting new development which I hope will make life easier for cyclists and make more people more inclined to not just buy a bike but actually ride it and not be so terrified of having it stolen or damaged. We really appreciate your participation and we will put all the necessary links up on the show notes.

Nick van Egmond: 26:51

No, thank you so much to the BC Cycling Coalition all of your listeners. It's a pleasure interacting with you. I'll be at your trade shows and look forward to the feedback. Thank you so much.

Peter Ladner: 27:10

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. An original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. Email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

Find out all about Sundays specialist bike insurance at sundaysinsurance.ca.

Visit bicyclebroker.ca to learn more about bicycle insurance options.  

Find out how the simple act of feeling wind in your hair can transform a day of isolation into one filled with joy, connection, and even awakened memories.

Jennifer Reid, Co-Founder and Director of Vancouver Cycling Without Age Society, joins us to explore how specialized three-wheeled 'trishaws' are creating magical moments for seniors across British Columbia. What began with one bike named after Jennifer's mother has grown into a fleet of six trishaws serving 12 partner facilities throughout Vancouver, and chapters operating in 14 communities across BC. The program, which started in Denmark, now thrives in 41 countries with 3,500 chapters worldwide.

Release date: March 20, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show.

Peter Ladner: 0:40

I first found out about Cycling Without Age when my friend Stu his wife was very ill and facing the end of her days and he was taking her out on bike rides in a tri-shaw. She was unable to move on her own but she could sit in the front of this tri-shaw and be out in the outdoors riding around in Vancouver with the wind in her hair, and she and he both loved doing this. And then I found out there's a whole organization of people who do this on a regular basis. So I brought in today to talk to us about it, jennifer Reed, who's the co-founder and director of the Vancouver Cycling Without Age Society, which is one of 14 societies like this around BC, and indeed there are many in Canada and countries around the world. This around BC, and indeed there are many in the world. Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. Could you describe to me a moment that sticks in your mind when everything was going right with one of your rides.

Jennifer Reid: 1:42

Well, we established vancouver cycling without age society in 2018, so it would have been 2019, just before the pandemic. I was taking a gentleman and his wife, Harold and Maureen, for a trishaw ride and, um the care home where harold lived, uh called me and asked if we could lift because he no longer walked. So we had to use a special lift. That is a machine that helps pick them up, put them in the tri-shaw. Maureen sat beside him. We went for a lovely ride along the seawall here in Falls Creek and we got to where one of the marinas was and I pulled over and sort of I don't know, they were enjoying the scenery, they were holding hands, it was really lovely, nice big blanket and cozy. And so I said, hey, how did you two meet anyway? And Maureen sort of looked up at me, cause we sit behind them on the bike, and she looked at me. She kind of winked and said, hey, let's see if he says anything.

Jennifer Reid: 2:37

Harold suffered dementia and we didn't know if he was going to communicate or not. And he slapped his leg and said, yeah, that's a great story. And off he went to talk about their first date, which precipitated a conversation about White Rock and parking tickets and pubs and really great. And I turned and looked at Maureen and she had tears running down her face and she was obviously very, very happy. And he, from that point on he just kept talking. And so I learned that he was a very famous hairdresser in Karesdale. He did all the hair for all the movie stars that came to town that were on movie sets way back when. And yeah, he was just a lovely guy.

Jennifer Reid: 3:18

I think what really impacted me when I took them back to the care home was the care home staff said what did you do to this guy? And I said what do you mean? And they said he came in, he was hungry, he hadn't eaten in days and he slept well that night. His wife was super happy and I said I think it was just the fresh air and feeling the connection to community and and being feeling alive and uh, and it just brought great joy to all of us and so that's the most memorable one. We get a lot of couples that live in care homes together and they love to sit together and hold hands and cozy up with a blanket and talk about stories. So many many stories to tell you, peter.

Peter Ladner: 4:02

So what is a tri-shaw and how does it work when you're in it?

Jennifer Reid: 4:06

So a tri-shaw is a three-wheel bike. Two passengers sit in the front and the person riding the bike, which we call a pilot, is behind and they get pushed around. So it's a bit different than a rickshaw, which would have the person pedaling in front rather than behind, and so that way the people in the front get all of the scenery. They see everything in front of them. It's purposely designed Trishaw. They come from Copenhagen so they're imported. I think the people in Denmark know how to make bikes and they've got these blankets. They have little hoods, they're very safe and very comfortable. They're also electric assist, so as we're pedaling around, we do get a little bit of power assist when we're on a hill climb and yeah, so they're a great bike.

Jennifer Reid: 4:55

So how the care homes got involved I guess I'm going to take you right back to the beginning is my mom was in long-term care and at the time I would go and drive to the care home and take her for a drive in the car, and that then precipitated a whole bunch of other seniors standing at the window gazing out longingly, saying take me with you. So I got a van and I started taking people for rides and I just realized that being inside a machine or inside a vehicle wasn't the same experience as being outside, and it was during that time. A friend of mine said hey, jen, have you heard about cycling without age? And I said no, I hadn't. So did the research, signed up to be one of the chapters here in British Columbia and got approval to do that, and then we started fundraising for our first bike.

Jennifer Reid: 5:48

During that time of fundraising for the first bike, I thought I better go talk to some care homes and see what they think of this idea about us riding up and taking people outside for a bike ride. And every care home that I chatted with was on board with the idea. What they really liked about the idea was the conversation that happens with people sitting side by side, and also the fresh air, and also the idea of a bit of respite for the caregivers, the families, and the families sometimes come with us and it allows them the families, not to have to focus on, you know, feeding or toileting or any of those other things. They just get to sit and enjoy the experience with their loved ones. So between the research that I did early on with the care homes, active adult daycare centers, I also spent some time with the city of Vancouver asking about the bike lanes and how they would feel about our tri-shaws, because they're quite wide.

Peter Ladner: 6:43

When you say they're quite wide, are they wider than a cargo bike?

Jennifer Reid: 6:48

Yes, because two people are sitting side by side with them. So envision the bike lanes here around Falls Creek or around Stanley Park. Well, first of all, we don't go around the Stanley Park seawall.

Peter Ladner: 6:59

Because of those barriers.

Jennifer Reid: 7:00

The barriers correct. Where we actually spend our time in Stanley Park is inside the park around the lake. They love the nature and the outdoors. So Beaver Lake. Having said that, the City of Vancouver and the Park Board at the time, back in 2018, kind of went what was coming into play with bikes and scooters and other things. Once they understood that our bikes are electric assist and not a sort of throttle drive, then we wanted to go eight to 10 kilometers. So we do not want to go fast, we want to go slow. And then they understood our cargo, which are seniors and the ability to get seniors out and enjoying fresh air and back in community. They were very supportive and to the point where they actually helped us financially with one of the first bikes that we got.

Peter Ladner: 7:55

Have you heard from other chapters in BC how they're managing these issues when they don't have protected bike lanes?

Jennifer Reid: 8:05

Vancouver is probably in my experience of talking with the other chapters around British Columbia which, by the way, they're in some pretty amazing places like Fernie and Rosland and Trail and Penticton I'm pointing out the ones that are quite hilly but also in Kamloops and Vernon and other places so those areas aren't as well structured with bike lanes yet I would say Vancouver is. So I think our tri-shaws help create that conversation in their communities, which I think is a really lovely combination of recreational senior activity and cycling. I think almost every senior that we've taken has ridden a bike at some point in their life and so they understand that feeling and that freedom that you get when you're on a bike.

Peter Ladner: 8:53

I love the fact that this runs counter to the narrative that you've got to be some sort of sort of very fit young man to be a cyclist. This is showing how cycling can serve people of all ages and all abilities and all disabilities. So talk about the finances, Jen. You mentioned that the city helped you out with purchasing your first bike. These bikes you mentioned are made in Denmark. How much do they cost?

Jennifer Reid: 9:19

They're about 25 grand to purchase it, to get it here and also to insure it and store it. So we also add a little bit of annual bike maintenance that we need. On the trishaws. You can well imagine that we have a lot of flat tires, and brake pads are a big deal when you're carrying up to 500 pounds of weight, um. So that's that's the hardcore cost for us is 25 grand, um.

Jennifer Reid: 9:45

The other high cost for us, uh, between the bike, the insurance, the operations, there is storage because they are so large. We're very, very grateful that we have a partner here in Vancouver right now that, uh, we pay rent to store our bikes, but we are looking for other storage areas around the city, primarily in for other storage areas around the city, primarily in the west side or the west end and also the east side. It would just make it a lot quicker and a lot easier for us to go from a hub somewhere within a community out to where those senior care homes and parks and recreation areas are. So, yeah, that's going to mean that it's a lease or some rent or a really great partner that wants to get behind the initiative that we got going on.

Peter Ladner: 10:32

Do the people who take these rides pay anything?

Jennifer Reid: 10:38

So we have service agreements with the care homes and the adult daycare centers, just as the families would pay for their loved one to go on a bus ride around Stanley Park. It's very nominal what they pay, but the agreement is there as a contribution to our organization to keep our bikes on the road through things like insurance and maintenance and those types of things. So there's two major programs. One is our partner program which includes those care homes, community centers, neighborhood houses, adult daycare centers, wherever you're going to find seniors hanging out. That's where we kind of hang out into running this program.

Jennifer Reid: 11:25

I was getting phone calls from family members who were looking after their loved ones at home, not in a long-term care home, and they said, hey, how do we bring our loved one to you to take them for a ride? Like we can put them in a car and bring them to Jericho Beach, for example, could you take them for a ride? And we said absolutely so. We built out a community program which just allows us to have a scheduled location, pickup point and time so people can join us, and that's by donation. So most of the folks just figure out what a nominal fee is. That helps us with our operations.

Peter Ladner: 11:58

To give us some idea of the scale of this, could you tell me how many bikes you have and how many bikes they have in, I don't know, fernie or Kamloops or somewhere? By comparison, how big is this operation?

Jennifer Reid: 12:11

Well, worldwide, I can tell you that it's in 41 countries around the world in 3,500 chapters. So a chapter is like us. We're the Vancouver chapter, no-transcript the scotland chapter, who organized that relationship with the government to understand how they do it. And here in british columbia we are talking with our own government to see what that might look like so we can expand our operations as well. But, but to answer your question, in 2018, we started with one tri-shaw. It's named after my mom, since she died, so it's called the Jill.

Jennifer Reid: 13:14

And then we are now at six tri-shaws and we have 12 partners that we schedule on a weekly basis and community ride program. We haven't set it up yet for 2025, but usually it's a weekly. We pop up somewhere usually the West end or the West side or trout Lake or somewhere in those different areas to uh. We usually connect ourself to a senior community activity going on so we can be there to support, to support the seniors that just can't walk anymore. Sometimes it's fun just to show up at the farmer's markets and spend some time, you know, hanging out there as well, so there's always a conversation happening. It takes us a lot longer than the average person to get through a farmer's market.

Peter Ladner: 14:01

So you bring your, your riders to the pilots, bring the riders to the farmer's market and then just chat with people, or you just bring the empty tri-shaw to show them how it works.

Jennifer Reid: 14:12

Yeah, so, um, during the pandemic it was, it was more people showing up there. I mean, once we were clear to ride again in 2021, um, we, riley park was the main lead where we would go and people would meet us there. They were already going to go to the farmer's market anyway and I just said, well, hey, bring your senior loved one, parent, grandparent, whatever, and we'll just go slow, you know, through the booths and chat with people, and it just made a nice conversation and a feeling of connection to the community that they're in conversation and a feeling of connection to the community that they're in.

Peter Ladner: 14:50

So these are clearly different than the rides that most of us do every day for recreation or commuting or whatever. Could you describe some of the features of these rides? How are they different?

Jennifer Reid: 14:57

we go slow. I would say that's the biggest piece when we're training people. Right now, we're in the middle of training 30 new pilots for the 2025 season and the biggest aha, I think, of everybody is first of all, you're on three wheels, so they're tippy right. You have to go slow because you can't take a corner like you would on a two wheel bike, um, but I would say that, uh, the weight and it's the, it's the ability to um, command the tri-shaw in a way where you're using the power application to your advantage and not thinking, oh well, I'll just stand up and, you know, use my body power to make it work.

Jennifer Reid: 15:35

Almost everybody realizes pretty quickly you can't stand up and ride on these things. You have to sit, and it's really about you getting the understanding of the mechanics in a way that that the bike is working with you because it's all when you put, you know, a few hundred pounds of weight in it, it's, it's an experience, right. So we learned that it takes a long time. You know our training program each new pilot gets, you know, 15 hours of training time to learn how to ride these things, and that's not even with the seniors. You know, that's just understanding the bikes, and then on top of that, we also help train them on working with seniors and what it's like to work with people with dementia and what the conversation may or may not sound like working with somebody with dementia. So we're grateful that our care home partners actually partner with our training program to help us with that.

Peter Ladner: 16:29

It reminds me of. One of my relatives got involved with something where you're comforting people in times of trouble and going for walks with them, she said was very good because you didn't have to talk all the time, and I would expect to be the same with this. You can just ride and not worry about engaging in conversation, and as you might if you were just having a coffee with somebody.

Jennifer Reid: 16:54

Yeah, it reminds me of Joseph and Margaret. That's one of the couples that goes for a ride with us almost weekly during the summertime and Joseph isn't on verbal anymore and dementia, but he sees the bike because it's red and so there's something about the color of red that he lights up, he gets a smile on his face and we know he's happy. And then when his wife snuggles in next to him and he looks at her and like I get to go with the ride, so he, he just loves it. She talks the whole time.

Jennifer Reid: 17:24

Um, funny story about her is first time I took her for a ride, she brought a pair of little scissors with her and I was like why is she bringing scissors with her? And she kept saying her English was broken, so she's a English, cantonese, and so I said, margaret, why do you have scissors? And she kept pointing at the flowers in the gardens and she wanted to cut them and I said we can't do that, these are public parks. So she said shh, just do it anyway. And I said no, no, no, we can't do that. I felt bad. And so the next time I went to the care home I took her some flowers that I had purchased. And it was funny because the care home staff said Jen, come look at this, and I walk in and the whole kitchen area and the whole dining room were just covered in flowers.

Jennifer Reid: 18:05

It turns out Margaret was a very famous florist and she just wanted to just keep making flower arrangements.

Jennifer Reid: 18:11

And so when you take her for a ride and she saw the tulips or whatever was out in bloom at the time, she just felt compelled to have to cut them down.

Jennifer Reid: 18:20

So in the very long end of that story is that there's a few floral shops that when they're ready to throw out flowers or sort of end of life, they just kind of ship them over to that care home and she just makes these amazing flower arrangements and shares them with everybody in the care home. But so I had to sort of tell our staff hey, if Margaret ever comes with a pair of scissors, please don't let her cut the flowers. That's not what they're there for, but anyway. So once I diverted her attention away from that cause, she too had dementia and got her thinking about her husband and and what was going on. And she's very, very chatty, waves at everybody like the queen and um, but her husband was just happy to sit, you know, and uh, and you knew he was happy, you know, just being with her. So he recognized her and so he loves to go out.

Peter Ladner: 19:11

Jen, one of the things that strikes me as you're talking is this notion of the joy and happiness that comes from cycling, which those of us who cycle understand intuitively. But when you're trying to sell this to, let's say, a government that wants you, think you want to get to support you, they like data, like can you prove to me that people are happy? Can you show me data on joy, or what is your measurable that you can use to get support for this?

Jennifer Reid: 19:46

You know, statistically, fortunately, we have a new person in the seniors initiative at the city of Vancouver who's doing some great work on behalf of seniors in the province. In the province of British Columbia alone there's over a million seniors and it's just going to grow with the baby boomers getting older, so we know there's going to be more and more demand. Having spoken to the ministry and which ministry is this? It's the seniors group. I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly what.

Peter Ladner: 20:17

It's the seniors ministry, but not the transportation ministry.

Jennifer Reid: 20:20

I don't remember exactly what the seniors ministry but not the transportation ministry, no, no, we tend to.

Jennifer Reid: 20:22

That's kind of an interesting conversation, peter, because years ago we got very aligned with the transportation side of cycling and that helped when we were advocate for better bike lanes, better access to, you know, disabilities, to people that are blind, to autism, to all these other things, and I thought, well, I thought, wow, yeah, we could go anywhere anytime.

Jennifer Reid: 20:55

But I said I wanted to stay strong with why we started the program in the first place, and Cycling Without Age has always been about the seniors and those with disabilities as well. I think the pandemic did it. I think when all those seniors were passing away in long-term care, we started really paying attention to how we house our seniors in care homes and what life is going to look like for them as they age. So we're looking at aging in place, we're looking at ways to keep seniors connected to the communities that they have lived and worked in, we're looking at ways to keep seniors living at home longer before they have to move their transition to somewhere else, and so the conversations are getting deeper, which I'm appreciative of, so that we can figure out together, you know, how our program, as a recreation program can support some of the desires of care homes and their recreational needs, and we just need more bikes and more spaces to be able to do that.

Peter Ladner: 21:49

What are the barriers to scaling it? Finances, I'm sure is a big one, and how are you dealing with that?

Jennifer Reid: 21:57

We have fantastic fundraising initiatives that go on. I think the awareness is getting better over time. We've been actively operating for over five years, I think, being a part of something that's a global initiative. All of us can relate. We all have a senior in our life at some point in time that is aging or passing away. So when people hear about us, they you know we always get the thumbs up, we always get the wave, we always. But you can see the wheels turning like, oh, that's really cool. And then you know behind that comes our story, behind that comes a great be a part, help us figure out how this works.

Jennifer Reid: 22:36

So our biggest barrier right now is looking at locations that we can expand to in the communities where we ride. So, again, thinking of the West Side or the West End in particular, we work with the South Vancouver Seniors Network, which is fantastic, and they are a huge, strong group of people that are advocating for seniors and seniors needs especially the low income seniors and housing and things like that. So we get into those conversations with them all and what we're looking for is like hey, do you have a warehouse? Hey, you know, do you have a storage space in a recreation center in a community center. I mean, wouldn't it be great if we could connect all the community centers around Vancouver and build a program with them? I think that would be because the seniors are already coming to those locations. So all those conversations are happening, but it takes time.

Peter Ladner: 23:26

We're focusing on the riders, but tell me something about the pilots because, going back to my friend Stu, he's in his 80s, he has difficulty walking but he can ride that bike still and I gather you told me you know him and he's still taking people for rides. Are the pilots also benefiting from this? Are they two typically seniors or who pilots Family members?

Jennifer Reid: 23:51

Yes, stu's actually an interesting story. So, stu and his wife, they ended up with one of the tri-shaws that we were going to purchase and it was at the time where his wife was no longer mobile and and he really wanted to take her out and and get the fresh air and the enjoyment and he would ride all the way to steves and for fish and chips. You know, I'm nothing, he's a fondo rider. So, just so you know, he just had a double knee replacement. So he's ready to roll, he's ready to go. He still rides with us. Go, he still rides with us. He still owns his own tri-shaw. He comes with us, he helps us out whenever we need, so he gives us the seventh bike that helps us. Be lovely if we had some public that wanted to buy a tri-shaw for their own and then they wanted to be involved in our program. I think that would be great. Like you say, he's a very active man. He's probably our oldest pilot and our youngest pilot.

Jennifer Reid: 24:42

Weirdly and excitingly at the same time, she is a nurse that is graduating university right now. She came out with her grandma on Grandma's Day, so we had a three-generation ride with Madeline and she's, I would guess, in her late 20s, early 30s. And when I asked her why? Why do you want it? You're a busy young woman, you're finishing your nursing. I'm sure you would like to do way more fun things with your own generation, and she said no, this is incredibly important.

Jennifer Reid: 25:13

She goes. I only have a limited amount of time with my own grandma. I can imagine that most people only have a limited amount of time she goes. I want to be a part of this. Even if I can only ride once a week, which is what we request of our pilots. I want to be a part of it. It really helps me and she's thinking about gerontology as her nursing degree because of her grandma. And so one ride that we did last September on Grandparents Day got her hooked, and she one ride that we did last September on grand grandparents day got her hooked, and she's in our training program right now.

Peter Ladner: 25:45

So if I wanted to be a pilot, I would have to go through a training program, and then how long is the typical ride like from the beginning to end of the pilot's time?

Jennifer Reid: 25:59

Yeah, so it's a three hour volunteer time slot once a week. That's what we request Most of the pilots. So we started with myself and another co founder and we built it up to 22 pilots. Last year with four trishaws, we now have six trishaws. We're going to need probably about 40 different volunteers so that we can go out to the different areas.

Jennifer Reid: 26:25

Most of the time we're sending two or three trishaws together at a time because the social aspect of riding together is also fun, because we'll pull up to the Maritime Museum out in Kitsilano and look out at the ocean and start a conversation, and so it's a safety thing for us us, but it's also a social part of riding together. So, point being, we're going to have different pilots if we've got all six bikes going um on seven days a week. We need a lot of people. You come to the warehouse and prepare a bike to go out and then we get to a long-term care home. Most of the time what we're doing is we arrive care home. Most of the time what we're doing is we arrive and we have one hour slots and we do two of them back to back. So we'll have a group of four or six seniors come out. We'll go for a one hour ride, come back, drop them off, take another group, do another ride, drop them off, then the pilots go back to the warehouse. So it's about three hours each shift.

Peter Ladner: 27:20

Is it weather dependent?

Jennifer Reid: 27:22

Yeah, yeah, that's funny. We were just this weekend. You saw the weather. On Saturday I had to cancel the training because it was just so wet and miserable. We have gotten caught in the rain with. We've had seniors, but the the hoods that go over their head don't cover the entire body and the blanket doesn't either, and most seniors, their metabolism and everything keeps them a little cooler than the rest of us. So we're constantly trying to keep them warm so we don't ride in heavy, heavy rain. I mean, if it's light rain and the sun's going to come out, we'll go, because they kind of like it, they think it's a little bit of fun, right?

Peter Ladner: 27:58

What about winter?

Jennifer Reid: 28:00

No, we only ride from May to October. Right now we're in training from February to April and then we get rolling full-time May to October.

Peter Ladner: 28:10

If I were in a smaller community in BC that does not have one of these chapters and I wanted to start one up, what would I do?

Jennifer Reid: 28:18

Well, that's interesting because when we didn't have a tri-shaw, I phoned Carson at the time in Victoria, who had a tri-shaw, and I said, hey, carson.

Peter Ladner: 28:26

Who's Carson?

Jennifer Reid: 28:27

Oh, carson. He was one of the founders of the Victoria chapter. There's also a Sydney, british Columbia. There's a whole list of chapters that you can find on the website and also on the Canada website.

Jennifer Reid: 28:38

Well, it was hard to talk about a bike when you didn't have one. So I was going around to care homes doing presentations saying, hey, look, this would be wonderful. And they're there. They just couldn't sort of get a sense of it. And so I realized very quickly I needed a bike, I needed a trishaw, and so I phoned Carson. I said, hey, wheel that thing on a ferry and I'll come pick you up with a moto van and um, and then I could then roll it around the city and do demo rides and it really, really helps. So all of us who run chapters have that very that pay it forward sense. So, as a matter of fact, maple Ridge came and did a ride with us and they're busy fundraising to get a chapter going, and I said, hey, if you have a special senior event we'll come out and you know, help you out with it. So I think what you'll find in the other chapters around the province, you know, if there was a small community that wanted to get going. Whoever the closest chapter was to them, would be more than willing to come and help for a day or so, because we've all been stuck with this feeling of how do we get started when we don't have a bike? You know, fundraising is the cart and horse is what it is.

Jennifer Reid: 29:43

The most common way that people start a chapter for cycling without age is through a care home. So they build a relationship with one care home, usually because their parent is in the care home and the care home goes, hey, we'll store it, we'll insure it and we'll, you know, you ride it from here, which was lovely. But when I was looking at it, I said, well, it and we'll, you know you ride it from here, which was lovely. But when I was looking at it, I said, well, that's really limiting though, because then that Trishaw sits in the basement for all the days that nobody wants to ride it and the rest of the community is not getting a chance to to be a part of that. So when we sat down and talked and said, okay, this is going to be the hardest way to do this, but let's, let's establish ourselves as a non-for-profit society with charitable status, and that'll allow us to go where we want to go.

Jennifer Reid: 30:30

So that's when we decided that we were going to build relationships with what we call partners and we weren't obligated to any one partner. We could do what we needed to do to expand the operations. So yeah, I think for us, because of the way that we've done it, we have sort of a, we have a way to keep those wheels on the ground and rolling and the bikes maintained and insured and all those other things that we have to look after them. We have hired an executive director for our program and he's now looking after all the fundraising and other things for us. So that allows us that growth that would naturally happen.

Jennifer Reid: 31:09

Whereas if you're established with one care home, it's a great program don't get me wrong but it is limiting to do it that way. Having said that, the chapters around British Columbia, like in Penticton it runs out of One Sky, which is a community center. Up there In Vernon it runs out of one of the care homes, but they have partnership agreements with other care homes. In Fernie it runs independently and then they actually ride in the snow. They put studs on them and ride in the snow. It's awesome. So every chapter just kind of figures it out and does it differently.

Peter Ladner: 31:47

Well, thinking about that nurse who's got a future in gerontology. Gerontology is coming on strong and there are many of, I must say, us seniors and I would think the demand for this is pretty huge, like almost unlimited. And you're just scratching the surface. Are there places like in Denmark, for example?

Jennifer Reid: 32:13

where there really is. It's a big proliferation of these bikes and providing this service. I can't speak to Denmark, but I think the countries that are run by the government are probably the biggest. Singapore is huge. I don't know exactly how many bikes they have. Scotland, I know, is huge. I don't know exactly how many bikes they have. Scotland, I know is hundreds.

Jennifer Reid: 32:26

And I only know this because I went to their head office, which happened to be near the Kelpies and near their Falkirk wheel, if you know where that is in Scotland and all of their tri-shaws were stored on in a. It was like an old greenhouse on a golf course. No-transcript. You're going to need it. And that was my first question to the gang in Scotland was I said so what's your biggest hurdle to get over? And they said, well, it bike maintenance. So when something breaks or like literally breaks, not just a flat tire, you know how do we get to them in a very remote community to fix them. So they've figured that out by building up sort of a train, the trainer bike mechanic program, and they go around the country and they do all that.

Jennifer Reid: 33:36

So I would say there's to scale it. You know you need the support of many businesses within the cities. The idea in Scotland, for example, is that if a community wants to have a tri-shop, then the government of Scotland will say that's great, put in your application, fundraise and get some money towards it, put some skin in the game and when they hit a certain level of fundraising, then that bike goes into that community and with it comes a service agreement and how it's going to be maintained and what have you? So branding and all those other lovely things that go with it as well. And training and training the people to ride them, training the community how to build the relationships, the care homes, I mean. Really that's not the hard part, they have the strong relationships. As it is, it's more understanding the bike and the bike's abilities, the tri-shock's abilities.

Peter Ladner: 34:28

This is a wonderful program, jen, and I'd love to see it expanded more, and I can see a lot of people wanting to do it. Just on the sponsorship matter, are there typical businesses that would step up, or are there cases where the bikes themselves are branded, like our shared bikes? Are that would give value to a sponsor, and are there sponsors eager to step up?

Jennifer Reid: 34:54

Yeah, I mean we're looking for sponsorship for our two newest bikes. They're unnamed at this moment in time. All of our tri-shows get names unnamed. At this moment in time All of our trishaws get names. So we're looking for that kind of fundraising opportunity for a business who would like to align their vision and mission with our initiative and get a little bit of exposure as we ride around the city. I would say the most people that are working with us in terms of helping us financially have been family foundations, a few individuals that donate very kindly. There's lots of in-kind. We're trying to build stronger relationships with Vancouver Coastal Health and just being able to build up those partnerships as well, not from a financial perspective, but more from a location or a partnership perspective.

Peter Ladner: 35:43

Well, it sounds like you've got a lot of work, but more from a location or a partnership perspective.

Peter Ladner: 35:47

Well, it sounds like you've got a lot of work to do and a lot of work has been done, but I would just congratulate you on making this possible for people and demonstrating the potential to other places in the province that are also doing this and could expand.

Peter Ladner: 36:03

And it sounds very wonderful and brings out, I think, some of the best in biking, where the pilot's getting some exercise, the people are getting the fresh air, the wind in their hair and seeing out in nature. I think we underestimate that, as you said at the beginning, compared to being in a van and I've taken senior friends of mine around driving and it's been wonderful you open the door at some place and let them just soak it up but I could see how this would be so much more fun and I think the elements of fun, joy and happiness are so much a part of it, and I love those stories about the people with dementia kind of coming to life in a way they don't typically just because they're at the time they're on the bikes Is there anything else you'd like to add?

Jennifer Reid: 36:52

I think I just wanted to add that you know there's lots of other ways to volunteer with us, but the one that is the most popular is riding the tri-shaws. And when I ask the volunteers that ride the tri-shaws because we've had many that have been with us for four or five years that just keep coming back they love that it's seasonal, they love that they're getting exercise Albeit, you're not getting a workout, but you're getting some exercise. You're, you're connecting to a community, you're giving of yourself and your time, you're learning something about these amazing people and you're sharing. You know you're sharing Vancouver. You feel a bit like an ambassador of the city, vancouver, you feel a bit like an ambassador of the city.

Jennifer Reid: 37:26

So it's as, as a few of our long term volunteers have said you know it's checks all my bucket lists of wanting to be involved and I think, as seniors are retiring they're, they're very active seniors. They want to be doing something and volunteering is a great way to give back. So you know, we create a really easy structure for them to step into and be a part of. We give them the. So you know, we create a really easy structure for them to step into and be a part of. We give them the training. There was a lot of social time where we get a chance to go out and do fun things together. Yeah, so it's a win-win-win and I have yet to have a bad experience. Even when somebody's having a bad day, they, you know, inevitably they'll go. Let's keep going because now I'm feeling good. So, yeah, it's. It's puts a smile on our face all the time.

Peter Ladner: 38:10

Fantastic. Thank you so much, jen, and thank you for sharing this with us, and we will put information in the show notes for people who want to help out, as being a bike mechanic or sponsor or start a program or expand it or find out more from you. So thanks so much for joining us.

Jennifer Reid: 38:27

No, thank you for your time. It's amazing.

Peter Ladner: 38:34

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

To learn how you can help bring the wind-in-your-hair experience to seniors in Vancouver and throughout British Columbia visit: cyclingwithoutage.ca/vancouver and globally here: cyclingwithoutage.org

Check out cycling without age on social media here:

facebook.com/cwavancouver
instagram.com/cwa_vancouver
linkedin.com/company/cwavancouver

Check out the film here: cyclingwithoutagethemovie.com

Contact Jennifer Reid at jenreid@cyclingwithoutage.ca

Active transportation in Indigenous communities isn't just a matter of movement — it's also about culture, identity, and safety. Aaron Pete, Chawathil First Nation Councillor (and Podcaster!), shares how the Chawathil are forging partnerships to support the Coast to Canyon Trail near Hope, BC, identifying the changes necessary for safe travel within the region, and integrating traditional values into modern transportation plans.

Check out Aaron's podcast, Bigger Than Me, where he chats with leaders and change makers from across the political/cultural spectrum.

Release date: January 27, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. At the Active Transportation Summit in June 2024, Aaron Peet was a presenter and gave us an insight into issues facing Indigenous communities that are quite different from the rest of BC, and we've invited him onto the podcast today to talk about how active transportation plans are affecting his own community and how he foresees the future for active transportation in Indigenous communities. Welcome, Aaron Peet. Thank you so much for having me. Now I'm going to do something. You have a podcast You've done 180 podcasts and I'm in the hands of a master here and I notice you always ask people to introduce themselves, so I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself.

Aaron Pete: 1:18

My name is Aaron Peet. I am a counsellor with Chihuahua First Nation, I host the Bigger Than Me podcast and I work as the strategic relations manager for Métis Nation BC.

Peter Ladner: 1:28

And you have a law degree, by the way, I do. Yes, could you tell us how transportation has changed in your community over the past 200 years?

Aaron Pete: 1:40

That's a very interesting question. So I've actually been doing a lot of work learning about a lot of this history. So, historically, pre-contact, we actually had a location called T'Kols and it is where the District of Hope's main area is today, and that was our village site and we actually have photos from that period. Um, throughout contact, we were actually displaced and moved over from where to calls was over to what we call chihuahua ir4 indian reserve 4 and that moved us farther away from our usual fishing sites, village sites, and the consequence of that shortly thereafter was that highways were then also put in that further displaced us and disconnected us from our ability to move back and forth from community to community safely. And I would say that's where we are today is we are farther away from the District of Hope. We're about a 10, 15 minute drive from the District of Hope and a significant like an hour walk along two different highways in order to get into town. There are very narrow points where there are bridges, and these are some of the constraints our community is facing now.

Peter Ladner: 2:53

And people in your community where you are a councillor. They have to go to Hope quite regularly, I assume, for groceries and so on. There are a few amenities in your community, Is that right?

Aaron Pete: 3:08

Correct. We don't have grocery stores, so everything that you have to go pick up, taking your kids to school, all of those are commutes outside of the community.

Peter Ladner: 3:16

And I noticed that the plan that you've done you recorded that 100% of your trips right now are made by car and yet you've got ambitions for an active transportation plan. Can you describe how you're going to get from where you are now to a more active form of transportation and why that's even important or necessary?

Aaron Pete: 3:39

So we actually started off engaging the community on this front, and I guess I'll just backtrack a little bit. My understanding of active transportation was actually introduced when I was a native court worker, assisting Indigenous people through the legal system, and a predominant amount of the files that I was dealing with were driving while prohibited, driving without a license and other motor vehicle infractions for driving without a proper insurance or license, and so that's predominant across, from my understanding at least, the Fraser Valley. And so, coming into this role, I knew as a council member that this was a pain point, and so we started and applied for $50,000 from the federal government for an active transportation plan. We did that back November 2022. Throughout 2023 and consulted the community. We did open houses, community surveys, focus groups and really got to know what the community was looking for. And this was a pain point for them as well.

Aaron Pete: 4:42

Within the Fraser Valley, we have lost members as a consequence of them having to commute on the highway by walking, being hit by semis. Those types of issues have arisen. So this is a well-known issue within Indigenous communities, and so we started communicating. We started putting up maps on some of our ideas. We actually met with our floodplain mappers and team there to start to understand where they think some good trails could be, where we're putting in dikes and stuff to further encourage that. And then we started reaching out to organizations like the Fraser Valley Regional District and other stakeholders like Tourism BC to understand where their goals for regional active transportation were, and one of those was the Costa Canyon Trail. And throughout this process we've been able to engage organizations like Enbridge, cp Rail, other funders like TransCanada Trails to start to get funding, to start to look at design. So we are in the design phase. We've finished our active transportation plan. Now we're designing and implementing.

Peter Ladner: 5:50

Tell us for a minute about the Coast to Canyon Trail. You said that the design has been done. How much of that has been built and what would that look like when it's built out?

Aaron Pete: 6:00

So the Coast to Canyon Trail starts, from my understanding, somewhere in Vancouver or New Westminster, and the dream has always been for trails to be able to go from there all the way to the canyon, which is Hope, and a lot of that has, from my perspective, been completed.

Aaron Pete: 6:16

Obviously, a lot of that falls outside of Chihuahua's jurisdiction, but we were looking at what can we implement within our region to support this trail. So we have about four to six kilometers of that trail that we can start to implement and we have actually the space. We've spoken to CP Rail, we've spoken to the Ministry of Transportation of our goals to begin to implement this. That way, if somebody does need to walk, bike run or cycle to town, they would have a safe way to do so where they're not on the road. So we're working with Trans Canada Trails. They've funded some grants to do some of the design work and starting to figure out exactly where that would go. There are some very narrow points where we do need some further design to figure out how we support people where the highway really constricts and there's not a lot of space on either side, in order to reach some of these goals, to make sure that it's feasible all the way through.

Peter Ladner: 7:10

And how far are you in your estimation, in the completion of your portion of this project like that would enable your community to meet its transportation needs without having to drive?

Aaron Pete: 7:23

We are, I would say, probably maybe five to ten years away from actually having that section completed. We are in the planning. We just finished the planning stage. Now we're trying to figure out where those pain points are, designing that and then the cost to actually implement that. We're starting to speak with funders to see who has the dollars for implementation, because six kilometers of developed trail, whether we look at paved or gravel, that's all going to be a significant cost. And so now we're reaching out to stakeholders to kind of engage who's willing to participate. How do we make sure we recognize them in their support? Is there ways to put up signs that say supported by Enbridge, supported by CP Rail, supported by the Ministry of Transportation, in order to kind of get their buy-in as well?

Peter Ladner: 8:07

As an Indigenous community, do you have access to other funds that are specially allocated to Indigenous causes and projects like this?

Aaron Pete: 8:19

I don't think we have access to special funds, but I would say that we have special considerations that we're starting to receive and funders are able to kind of look at our application somewhat differently because the challenges that we have are so much different than challenges faced by individuals living in a municipality. Municipalities have a tax base to pull from, and First Nation communities we don't have that same tax base, and so we do rely more heavily on grants and their ability to understand that we're in unique circumstances. We're not just wanting trails because they're nice to bike on or because we enjoy the experience, or we're doing it because we actually need safe transportation for people who might not have licenses in order to get to and from community. How much support is there for this in your community? I would say very high support. We continue.

Aaron Pete: 9:17

We just did an infrastructure survey with the community and we again pulled very strongly in support of active transportation. Particularly the Costa Canyon Trail, I think is more interesting perhaps to your viewers. But within our community there needs to be more connections for people to get from their house to the band office without having to drive, and so we've developed. The Enbridge line actually runs through our community and there's huge interest from the community to have that, because then they wouldn't have to drive four minutes from their place to the band office, they'd have a safe place to walk and it would be private trails for them to enjoy. And we haven't really had that. It's always been kind of walking through the grass, and so the idea of having beautiful scenery throughout the forest that's only member accessible is something I think that really excites them, because it's their ability to reconnect with the land in a more private way than the Costa Canyon Trail would look. So there's huge support for that Enbridge Line Trail.

Peter Ladner: 10:11

Can you describe what the impact of that Enbridge Line is? Is this like a hydro right away, where everything's cleared out and now you're left with an open path that can be replanted in different ways?

Aaron Pete: 10:23

Yes, so they have one of their pipelines that comes through our community and it is fairly wide I'd say it's probably 30 meters wide and there's special spots where we would be able to develop these trails that wouldn't impact the actual pipeline, is very supportive of that. But it runs through the whole of our reserve and so, um, tourists wouldn't be able to access it, but it would be a way for communities to go for nice long walks throughout their community. Um, we have lots of wildlife that they'd be able to enjoy and that would be just for their benefit to connect the communities more so because right now and this is true for many first nation communities there's a house and then like five blocks and then another house, and so the connection between homes has always been a challenge, and this will kind of integrate the community and make it more accessible for people to connect.

Peter Ladner: 11:18

Now you said that your community, the Chihuahua community, is separate from the SCAM community, which is just slightly north of Hope, is separate from the SCAM community, which is just slightly north of Hope. What's the distance between those communities and do you have families that are spread out between those two communities?

Aaron Pete: 11:37

Yes, it's around a 50-50 split. Scam is mainly higher ground, so we don't have to worry about the floodplain. Chihuahua IR4 is within the floodplain, so that's one of the challenges that we have with our Chihuahua IR4 is that we were also displaced to a location that is. We're working with Northwest Hydraulics and they've identified that we're very deeply within the floodplain and at very, extremely high risk, and we saw that during the 2021 atmospheric river, and so a lot of our new developments are looking at SCAM. The challenge is it is about a five to seven minute drive from Chihuahua to SCAM. Again, the highway narrows throughout those points and so people are walking very, very close to highway traffic in order to go from one community to the other or relying on somebody to drive them. But SCAM is another area where we're looking at further development, so we also want to see further growth in terms of active transportation. Our first trail that we built was actually up at SCAM, around the ball field, and we've actually accomplished that a couple of months almost a year back in August, sorry.

Peter Ladner: 12:43

You're also looking for a bridge over the highway, a grade separated crossing. How likely is that to happen and is that a that would sound like a major cost?

Aaron Pete: 12:56

that is likely to happen. I guess I should reframe the question you asked me before. We do have special funding, in the sense that we are supported by Indigenous Services Canada and they have funds specifically for Indigenous communities in order to accomplish infrastructure goals and make sure that we're served. Again, since we don't have a tax base, we rely on the federal government support for a lot of these initiatives, and so we are working with them right now to do a feasibility study on whether or not we would look at a bridge or a tunnel, on whether or not we would look at a bridge or a tunnel. There's concerns with both, but we're not okay with an accurate crosswalk, which was proposed by the Ministry of Transportation initially. We don't feel comfortable with that. People from what's called K Street have to cross the road over to Scam in order to catch the bus, and we don't feel comfortable with our children having to cross the number one highway in order to catch the bus in the morning. We're looking at potentially having a daycare up at SCAM, and so people would have to take their kids across the road again in order to access those services, to access the parks and all of those pieces. We have a cultural centre up at SCAM, so we need something that's more safe for people to get across. So we're speaking with Indigenous Services Canada, the Ministry of Transportation and we're working on a feasibility study right now in order to look at some of those costs.

Aaron Pete: 14:11

What's the most feasible? There's a lot of hesitation with a tunnel because a lot of wildlife would likely go through there. It can become an unsightly premise and there can be challenges with people who are unhoused in those areas, and so those are some of the concerns. The concerns with the bridge would be that young people like to cause shenanigans and there's a risk that they might utilize that bridge in order to cause some challenges for oncoming traffic, and so we're considering all of those things as we move forward. I do think that there's a huge momentum within our council and leadership and within the community to want to see that project come to fruition, and so I do think that there's a strong likelihood that it comes to life. That's a three to five year project in order to get implemented, but I think as long as we have that community support, we'll be able to get that across the finish line.

Peter Ladner: 15:03

It's interesting. You say that as three to five years and I said earlier that sounds like a big project, but when you compare that to the highway projects that we do, there's no way a little thing like that, compared to a big highway exchange, would take that long.

Aaron Pete: 15:16

In another First Nation community I can see the hydro poles that go through the forest up a mountain, and that's an incredible feat for Canadians, for British Columbians, that were able to do those things. But yes, when an organization comes back to me and says that's really expensive, it's like my argument is that we were displaced here. It wasn't our preference to be here.

Peter Ladner: 15:53

We wouldn't have had these issues if we weren't displaced, and so we do need some give and take on these fronts to make sure that it is feasible for our members to live here aaron, if you figure out how to get a the highways, to put a pedestrian overpass on a highway, there are communities all over this province aching for that solution and realizing that to truly realize an active transportation integrated plan, you have to have ways of crossing these highways, and so I I really hope that works for you. I want to ask you something about. One of the things that you're trying to do is integrate culture and tradition into your plans. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Aaron Pete: 16:37

So I actually had the opportunity during law school to study some more of the history of how Indigenous people traveled, and we have the statistics that people traveled from Alaska all the history to learn more about how people traveled vast distances. And I think the part that's really interesting to me about us being an oral culture is that the stories that you hear about the mountains served two purposes from my perspective. One was they were moral stories, very similar to biblical stories on how to live a good life. They taught you a lot about philosophy, how to be a good contributing person in your community. But then two, they are also a geographic map. If you understand the story, you understand where you are geographically, because they wouldn't have had GPS or anything like that, so they were serving dual purposes. So when you get to learn some of that history about Mount Siam and stuff, you start to realize that these are actually geographic points that you would be able to identify if you're traveling through from Alaska all the way down to California and having those stories you would tell along your walk to keep track of where you were and learn some things along the way.

Aaron Pete: 18:01

The challenge I always remind people with written traditions is that often they get disconnected or they don't make as much sense, Like. People know who Shakespeare was, but how much can they tell you about what those stories actually meant or the lessons to be learned from them? That's where people start to drop off for written traditions but oral traditions. If you don't understand something, then it's my job as the storyteller to shape it in a way that does make sense to you. So those stories were able to survive for so long because people were really able to take them in and see themselves reflected in those stories, and so I like that piece and I think there's ways to incorporate that history and that rich culture into these trails.

Peter Ladner: 18:42

Fantastic, so interesting. Aaron, I know you have a tight deadline. We're going to let you go, but I would just like to leave us with a plug for your podcast. Tell us it's called Bigger Than Me and tell us what you do with that podcast and why our listeners might be interested in it.

Aaron Pete: 18:56

It's called the Bigger Than Me podcast. I interview people from all different backgrounds. I had the opportunity to interview all of the party leaders for the last BC election. That was David Eby, kevin Falcon, john Rustad and Sonia Fersonow and that was a huge opportunity. But I go down all different types of paths to learn about people's journey and why they do what they do and why they love making a difference in their community.

Peter Ladner: 19:21

Well, let us know the next time you're going to do one that's even remotely related to transportation. We'd be happy to help you promote it. Thanks so much, Aaron, and good luck with that project.

Peter Ladner: 19:30

Thank you so much, I appreciate it you've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the bc cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca.

Check out Aaron's podcast, Bigger Than Me, where he chats with leaders and change makers from across the political/cultural spectrum.

UBC Prof and Transportation Engineer Dr. Alex Bigazzi explains how e-bike rebate programs are transforming the transportation landscape in BC. Dr. Bigazzi has all the data on who gets the subsidies, how the bikes are being used, whether anyone is taking a 'free ride' on the program, and whether e-bikes are actually replacing cars ... or bikes.

Dr. Bigazzi also shares how a pioneering subsidy initiative in Saanich paved the way for broader provincial adoption, and which strategies are successfully encouraging people to swap their cars for e-bikes thereby reducing carbon emissions and improving public health.

Spoiler alert: it turns out that fun and joy are the key motivators for getting people onto bikes, and keeping them there.

Release date: December 23, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. In the summer of 2021, the municipality of Saanich introduced BC's first e-bike rebate program, where people were subsidized to buy e-bikes. The success of that program led to a province-wide rebate program for e-bikes introduced in May 2023, where the province would give people between $350 and $1,400, depending on their income, to buy an e-bike, and they allocated $6 million for this. They thought it would reach 9,000 people and the day they opened up the applications, their website crashed. There were so many people applying. We have a guest today who probably knows more about all this than anybody in the world. His name is Dr Alex Bagazzi. He is a transportation engineer associate professor at UBC and his special area of focus and research is non-motorized and lightly motorized transportation and the intersection of physics, physiology and behavior for active travelers. Welcome, dr Alex Bagazzi.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 1:50

Thank you so much, peter, it's great to be here.

Peter Ladner: 1:52

Before we start, I noticed in your bio that you have a background as a jazz musician. How did you go from being a jazz musician to a transportation engineer?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 2:02

as a musician to a transportation engineer. Yeah, that is true. My first university degree was in music and I played music and had a bit of a vagabond lifestyle for a while.

Peter Ladner: 2:13

Did you ride around on an e-bike during that vagabond lifestyle?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 2:16

No, no, this was the early 2000s, so not a lot of e-bikes around then.

Peter Ladner: 2:22

A van, maybe with Grateful Dead.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 2:27

Yeah, more like that. And yeah, a little bit later on, I was looking for a big change and some way to have a little bit of a different type of impact on the world. And so and I looked around and transportation systems seemed like something that needed some work and really had a big impact on people's lives, and so that's why I ended up in transportation.

Peter Ladner: 2:53

Well, thank you for doing that. So you looked at the Saanich program, you evaluated it, with some help from the Saanich municipality and the provincial government, but mainly it was your initiative and you got the money together to do that. What did you find out? Did it work?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 3:09

Yeah, absolutely so. Uh, short answer is yes, it worked. The the, the incentives were um, remarkably successful in both attracting new e-bike riders and in having those e-bike riders use their bike regularly, even a year after purchase, and in the long-term follow-up that we did. And a fairly large portion of that e-bike travel was displacing automobile use, which is kind of the ideal thing when we're looking at having positive impacts on climate change and affordability and public health and things like that. So, yeah, quite a large success.

Peter Ladner: 3:52

And that success led to the province being emboldened to do their program. And you have looked somewhat at the province's program. Are you seeing the same successes and did it have the same goals of displacing car travel?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 4:08

Yeah, so we are right now finishing the 12-month follow-up of the people that we recruited into our study from the provincial program and so far, from what we've seen in the interim analysis that we've done, it looks like the results are quite similar to what we saw in Saanich. There's a few differences because there's a few different aspects to the way the program was structured. They're similar but not equivalent, and so we're seeing a little bit of a difference, and also people in the BC program are in a wider range of contexts than Saanich and so there are some differences and we'll soon be able to dig into that full data set and hope to have all the results out sometime in the spring, in a few months.

Peter Ladner: 4:54

On the impacts of the provincial-wide program, which was much larger, as you said, Well, speaking of a wider range of context, I know that e-bike program rebates are being done all over the world and many, many cities in North America are doing them, and so this is not a new thing and it must be working because they're all doing it and continuing to do it. But, looking at different contexts, how effective are e-bikes in a rural part of the province where maybe it gets more snow and the distances people have to go are longer and the protected routes are fewer?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 5:30

Yeah, that's a great question and one of the main things that we'll be able to look at once we have the BCY data all analyzed because that Santa's context is more constrained and and most um of the e-bike incentives that have been um, uh, done so far well, actually they're.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 5:51

They're at all levels of government. So there's some cities doing them, like Saanich, like Denver, um, there are some provinces and States doing it, like now BC has done it, um, california is working on some, and there's even been some countries that have done it in Europe, like the Netherlands, and so there are a range of these incentives and they do have different effects. However, we haven't had enough kind of analyses of different programs in different contexts to be able to say how much their effectiveness varies In general. We do know that people use e-bikes differently in different contexts, but in terms of the effects of the incentives, it's still pretty early to say. There hasn't been a lot of rigorous analysis, which was one of the big motivations of us developing an evaluation program to accompany the rebate programs in Saanich and BC, and we've been super appreciative of the District of Saanich and the province well, both for their leadership in launching these programs but also for their eagerness to engage with researchers to do an independent evaluation of the effects.

Peter Ladner: 7:03

People looking at these, just taking a quick sudden look at it, might say well, yeah, but so I get $1,400 for an e-bike. Why don't I just go and sell it and keep the $1,400 and not worry about riding my e-bike around? Has that happened? Did you research that?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 7:24

It's hard to know the extent to which that is happening. It probably is happening, some. It's possible. It's definitely a risk with this and all types of incentive programs, but it doesn't appear to be a large issue, just based on the few times that administrative agencies have been able to go in and go back and follow up with people who've received the e-bike rebates. All these programs have agreements that people who receive the rebates have to agree to before they can get the rebate, which includes things like not selling it and keeping it for 12 months. So what you're describing would be a violation of the terms, which can definitely happen. But a kind of bigger concern, actually in terms of the effectiveness of these programs, is what we call free riding, which is just people getting the rebates who would have bought an e-bike anyway, and that's, you know, within the allowances of the program, because the program doesn't say what you would have had to have done anyway, because there's no way to really know for certain what would have happened in that, in that other world.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 8:30

So, um, when we're evaluating the effects of the programs, one of the most important things to quantifying how impactful it was is trying to tease out and separate the people who would have bought an e-bike anyway without the rebate from those who would not.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 8:48

And that's a big part of it, and it is also a big piece of trying to design a program that's more effective.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 8:59

I'll say one of the things that made Saanich's design so unique and really on the vanguard of these types of incentive programs is their approach to tiering the amount of the incentive to the household's income.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 9:17

And they did that specifically to achieve two things. First of all is to enhance the equity of the program, so to make sure that people who were in greater need of assistance got more assistance, so to achieve both kind of climate and equity goals simultaneously. But also some pre-program modeling analysis that we had done before the Sanus program launched suggested that lower income households are actually also more price sensitive. So they are more likely to be these marginal purchasers who wouldn't have bought without the rebate, as opposed to higher income households which are more likely to be free riders. They were more likely to buy an e-bike anyway because they have more capacity to do that. So there's a way that we can target both equity and effectiveness by income conditioning the incentives, which is one of the novel and, I think, really successful aspects of both the sandwich and the provincial program and the richer people get a much smaller amount of money, like in the provincial one, they only get 350 bucks.

Peter Ladner: 10:31

So that's really, you know, not a painful free ride. So what did you find out about how people use these e-bikes? Who? Who benefited the most, and did people actually get out and ride them, and did people actually get out and ride them.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 10:43

Yeah, they used them quite a bit, on average three to four times a week. We recruited a control group of people who purchased non-incentivized e-bikes and people who purchased conventional bicycles as well, so we can do a robust comparison, and what we found is that the people who purchased the e-bike were substituting auto trips much more than people who used conventional bicycles, at actually twice the rate. So around 20% of conventional bicycle trips, or trips made by a purchased conventional bicycle, were substituting for auto trips, whereas around 40% to 45% of e-bike trips were replacing automobile trips, either as a driver or a passenger, and so we really are seeing quite a lot of mode shift. These are people who were not e-biking before, and most were not conventional bicycling before either.

Peter Ladner: 11:39

So you have solved the cheater conundrum. When people who have regular bikes find friends with e-bikes, they call them cheaters. But those of us with e-bikes say, well, yeah, but compare taking an e-bike with taking a car ride, and you're not cheating at all. You're getting more exercise. And I gather that people with e-bikes end up getting more exercise because they take them out more often. Is that what you found too?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 12:06

So you're exactly right, peter, and I'll be honest. So I actually don't ride an e-bike but I do ride a conventional bicycle quite a lot and the nature of the devices we see in bike lanes and paths has changed. And there's a whole separate research project we did now looking at four-year trends in mode shares on off-street paths and speeds, and what we found is that there has been an enormous growth in e-bikes and other electric devices in these paths and that has led to an increase in speed, which does lead to kind of less comfort and more conflict. So it is a shift in the transportation system. So there's an understandable kind of response to people who were using it before in the more conventional just conventional bicycle and pedestrian modes. But one of the things I do like to remind people is that most of the e-bikers would not have been cycling anyway. Most of this is car or a much larger share is car mode shift than conventional bike shift. And so you know, would you rather be interacting with an electric bike or with a car?

Peter Ladner: 13:24

One of the premises of this program is that finances are a barrier maybe the biggest barrier to e-biking. But I noticed that there was also, in the provincial program, a promotion of education so people who didn't know how to ride or weren't sure of the rules of the road could be educated. And we all know that the biggest barrier for people riding more is protection and safety.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 13:51

And so, between finances and education and protected lanes, which would you say are the most important factors for getting a mode shift going, that's a great question and so, just to be clear, I'm now speaking we didn't actually analyze that question within this research, but speaking more broadly, because we have done a lot of research on this type of question, infrastructure is absolutely essential, absolutely essential, and that needs to be the foundation of any cycling policy, any cycling policy. I have heard some governments kind of hinted this. So we need to make sure that, although e-bike incentives are very effective, they are not kind of the answer for people who are looking to promote active transportation. They are one complementary strategy within a suite of strategies to promote active transportation that needs to center on infrastructure. And then e-bikes can be an important tool for helping especially lower income households, enabling them to access lightly motorized, non-automobile transportation options for some of their trips. But it really does need to center on infrastructure first.

Peter Ladner: 15:06

Can you talk about the type of trips that people use their e-bikes for? Because the classic argument about bikes is well, yeah, that's great, but how am I going to get my kid to a soccer game or pick up the groceries or get that load of lumber from Kimber?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 15:21

Mart or something.

Peter Ladner: 15:22

Are they being used for more utilitarian purposes?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 15:25

Absolutely. I can pull up the data now while we're talking. But, um, they are you being used for a variety of purchases, just like automobiles and just like conventional bicycles. Um, so in our, in our data here, uh, around 35 40% were being used for a commute trip of some kind going to work or school, whereas that was about 30, 35% for conventional bicycles. So actually a little bit higher utilitarian rate than conventional bicycles, and that's a large share.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 16:00

They're also being used for other types of utilitarian trips, like shopping and errands. It's about 10, 15%. They're being used as escort trips. So this is something that e-bikes really open up within the cycling world is pick up and drop off for children, and you'll see a much larger share of parents taking kids to school on an e-bike than you do on conventional bicycles, because it's just so much harder on a conventional bicycle. So electric bicycles enable actually more utilitarian trips than like exercise or leisure trips. Now, there are some exercise or leisure trips, but we actually see a smaller portion than for conventional bicycles. I do like to say, though, I feel like, especially transportation engineers like myself, we tend to focus too much on utilitarian travel and, you know, maybe that's just our kind of economic, kind of capitalist orientation. But you know, recreational exercise type trips are also a really important and perfectly valid use of the transportation system.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 17:15

So you know, we also want to get people out there on those types of trips. But yeah, e-bike trips e-bikes are being used quite a lot for utilitarian travel.

Peter Ladner: 17:25

We're not afraid to use the words joy and fun on this podcast. When you're justifying a political program, you say well, it brings joy and fun into people's lives. Sounds a bit flaky, I will say, but for those of us who do the rides, that's a really big deal. But let's get back to the numbers actually, if I could follow up on that speaking of the numbers.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 17:47

So we asked people about their experiences three months and 12 months after as compared to what they expected, about things like comfort, charging, parking, how often they use it, etc. And what's super interesting. I did not expect this, but in both the three month and 12 month follow-up in sanich and in the three month follow up in for the BC program, every one of those the number one thing that people cited as much better than they expected isikes are fun is actually has been a huge component of people's experience and their habit forming behavior, of their tendency to still be using it 12 months in. People really like riding e-bikes and that again is something we probably especially transportation engineers like myself we don't focus nearly as much on as we probably should.

Peter Ladner: 18:51

Were there any other surprises in your findings?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 18:55

I did not expect to see the level of retained mode shift at 12 months that we saw. I thought we'd see more of a novelty effect where they use it quite a bit for three months but then by 12 months in it was like a Peloton bike gathering dust or, you know, like a clothes hanger, clothes drying rack. That was not the case. It dropped off a little bit after 12 months, but really not much, and so this appears to have been a pretty sticky intervention in terms of long-term travel behavior shifts. I'll also add one more thing, which is that this isn't a whole lot of people abandoning automobile travel, a whole lot of people abandoning automobile travel. Pretty much everyone still had access to a car, who had it before and still used a car regularly. We're really just talking about shifting a portion of their trips, and that's really why the incentive program is nice, because it provides an option for people to shift their feasible trips which, aggregated over a lot of people, can really have an impact.

Peter Ladner: 20:11

And I would guess that what people consider feasible changes over time too, because I talked to somebody yesterday who said they used to just ride their bike on sunny days and they only ride home from work not to work because they get sweaty. And then they figured it all out and now they do it much more often for many more reasons.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 20:31

Absolutely. You learn the network too. What are the good routes? Where are the problem spots? How to avoid schools during pickup and drop-off period, and these little tricks that make a big difference in your overall experience, little tricks that make that make a big difference in your overall experience.

Peter Ladner: 20:51

but let's get back to the numbers. Did you or does that? Has anybody calculated the return on investment for these types of rebates? Because when you think about the savings on, let's just say, road maintenance, uh, the road repair evs, which are much more heavily subsidized and we could get into that, but I'll fight the urge to do that are typically much heavier than conventional vehicles and wear out the roads, and that is a direct cost. There's a mental health cost that are alleviated, one might assume, because of all the fun and joy costs that are alleviated, one might assume, because of all the fun and joy and also physical costs. People are getting outdoors and getting some movement, not to mention injuries and ICBC costs and everything. So have you done that calculation?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 21:39

So we did an economic evaluation just on the greenhouse gas dimension. So we calculated the cost per ton of CO2 reduced, assuming a 10-year lifespan of the e-bike and so on that regard, what we found is that it is cost competitive with other types of transportation interventions, but it is not cost competitive per ton CO2 reduced with kind of the international carbon market. So you know, compared to kind of forest type initiatives in other parts of the world, initiatives in other parts of the world. But the reason it's important to contextualize that is because part of climate justice is about not just finding the cheapest place in the world to reduce emissions or to offset your emissions, but to actually reduce your emissions that you're generating locally. And so when you look at that it is quite cost competitive. And we actually compared it with a fairly recent study of the electric car purchase incentive in BC and we found that it was cheaper in terms of CO2 reductions. It was better per dollar spent than the electric car incentives. And that is just looking at CO2. And so you're absolutely right If you start expanding that out to look at all the other potential benefits, right, most of the other things for e-bikes are on the plus side, whereas for electric cars, they're more on the minus side in terms of infrastructure, in terms of health, in terms of external safety risks and things like that.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 23:23

And so when people do a more comprehensive economic valuation of things like, especially including health effects, what typically happens is because physical activity is so important for health and because there's such systemically insufficient physical activity in Canada and North America right now that those physical activity benefits getting people out on a bike, even an e-bike are huge and tend to kind of dwarf all the other costs. So if we incorporated those they would be extremely cost-effective. That was a little bit outside of the scope of our work, but we did do some calculations and we found that overall there was a net increase in the transportation related physical activity that these people were getting. So, even though there was a little bit of a reduction in conventional bicycle use and walking, that increase in e-bike use more than offset it.

Peter Ladner: 24:25

Can you talk a little bit about equity? To what extent affordability is more and more an issue these days, and to what extent does the affordability of these bikes change people's lives and make them more accessible? We're getting a little bit more of that data on the provincial program.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 24:44

But we do see a fair bit of new trips, basically people going places they would not have gone otherwise, which is kind of what we're talking about in terms of not just reducing travel costs but increasing access, and that is a really important part of transportation equity. The provincial program analysis that we're doing, the study we're doing, is supported by a large national grant funded by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada called Mobilizing Justice. That looks at these broader issues of the way transport poverty, or people's inability to reach destinations given the resources that they have, really has long-term negative impacts on their economic life, on their health life and on their social life.

Peter Ladner: 25:39

When people talk about e-bikes, they sometimes say well, that's great for people who are fit. Of course, you don't have to be as fit as a regular bike, but you still have to be able to balance and so on. But what about e-trikes? And what about scooters? Are those part of the subsidy program? They are not.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 25:57

Well, actually an electric tricycle, I believe would be. I could be wrong about that, but I believe that still fits the definition of a motor-assisted cycle under the Motor Vehicle Act. So part of the issue here is we're constrained by a quite outdated Motor Vehicle Act in terms of what counts as a legal micromobility device, mobility device, um, and so we have the motor assisted cycle regulation, which I believe a tricycle um falls under, because they don't designate um. It could be two or three wheels, I believe and cargo bikes as well and cargo bikes as well.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 26:38

Yep, those are okay, um, but you know, electric scooters are not fully legal under the Motor Vehicle Act. There's just that pilot program. So there's only, you know, maybe a dozen municipalities around the province where they're actually legal. So those aren't part of the program. And, as you say, we did some analysis. We found 27 different types of devices and I believe more than half of them were currently not legal under the Motor Vehicle Act. And I believe more than half of them were currently not legal under the Motor Vehicle Act. And there isn't really a reason that they're illegal, other than that they are new and we haven't had a chance to incorporate them into transportation policy and governance yet. But you know, BC takes a fairly cautious approach which has pros and cons Overall it, you know. I think it leads to some better decision making in terms of when we bring in things like ride hailing and electric scooters. We can learn from a lot of lessons and mistakes that other cities and places have made, but it does mean that things are a little bit slower to come to BC.

Peter Ladner: 27:50

So, speaking of being slow, given what we know about the success of this program, can you now I'm going to just ask you, as a sort of a citizen, to speculate. Can you speculate on what political resistance there might be to expanding or continuing this program? Because we're now more than a year since it started. The website exploded when it was brought in. I was told by somebody that there's such a waiting list that if they brought in a new program at the same scope, there would be no room for new people, because all the lineup of people already waiting would take up the available money. But I'm puzzled why we haven't got it. Do you think now, here we are, in an era where the government's trying to pay more attention to the non-urban constituents? Do you think that there's political resistance of some kind to this that's preventing the government from going ahead with it? Are they waiting for your data, or what's the holdup? Why wouldn't we just do more of this?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 28:49

Fair question and speaking as a BC citizen here certainly not a spokesperson for any government agency and I don't know in particular but these e-bike incentives are very effective and they address a lot of the stated priorities and goals and problems that BC has with the Clean BC program, with the Cycling BC policy and things like that. So they address equity, they address climate, they address affordability and public health. So they really do make a lot of sense and I think really the only argument against this is just in terms of the financial costs of the province and so Six million, that is not a lot of money.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 29:40

It is not a lot of money, but I do expect, especially given the outcome of the last election I would think that we'll see more coming. I don't know, but I would think we will see more coming, especially, as I said, because if you're looking at climate targets and things like that, and we're subsidizing electric cars, it's a no-brainer to subsidize electric bicycles.

Peter Ladner: 30:11

Well, alex, I'm pleased to be part of the ask, getting our little messages out into the millions of podcast listeners that we have and spreading the word, and I really look forward to hearing your final research. You've got your peer review paper coming out about the Sandwich results very shortly. We'll have the connection in the show notes and you'll have, I guess, more detail about the provincial program and maybe, hopefully, that will be the trigger for an expansion and continuation of that program and all these great results. So thank you so much for the work you've been doing and how it's helped policymakers get the courage to make these choices and I hope the rest of us can cheer them on appropriately.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 30:56

Yeah, my pleasure and thanks so much for having us on here. It's, you know, we do the work and then we put it out there and then we really rely on, you know, people like the BC cycling coalition to, um, you know, put it in, put it in front of people as much as possible. So, uh, thanks so much for that.

Peter Ladner: 31:18

You've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the BC cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At peterladner at bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member.

Saanich results and report: https://reactlab.civil.ubc.ca/saanich-ebike-incentives/

The study on micro mobility mode shares and speeds in cycling facilities: https://reactlab.civil.ubc.ca/human-electric-hybrid-vehicles/

An earlier report on e-bike incentives for Victoria in 2019 that led to the Saanich collaboration: https://civil-reactlab.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2021/01/Ebike-Incentive-Program-Development-Victoria_FinalReport_March-2019.pdf

What if one policy could make streets safer, communities stronger, and lives healthier? Dr. Michael Schwandt, Medical Health Officer for Vancouver Coastal Health, shares why a 30 km/h speed limit on BC's residential streets is a game-changer.

In this episode, we explore how lower speeds can significantly reduce traffic injuries and fatalities, create safer spaces for cyclists and pedestrians, and improve overall community well-being. We also tackle overlooked risks like right turns on red lights and highlight the collaboration needed between public health and local governments to make active transportation safer and more accessible.

Release date: December 01, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. The BC Cycling Coalition has been working for some time with a number of organizations aligned with us on a specific safety measure that we think would be very important in making our province safer for cyclists and pedestrians, and that is a 30 kilometer per hour default speed limit on residential streets throughout the province, that's, streets with no painted line on them. And to put this in perspective, we've invited on our podcast today Dr Michael Schwant, who's a medical health officer for Vancouver Coastal Health. He's also a clinical associate professor in the School of Population and Public Health at UBC and he knows a bit about this topic. Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 1:20

Hey, thanks for having me on.

Peter Ladner: 1:22

Michael, you are a cyclist, I assume. Do I assume?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 1:25

that, yeah, definitely, and I think that's yeah, it's. You know, I think one thing, because I moved about a little bit as a like many have lived in Vancouver and Toronto, and from Winnipeg originally. So biking in cities that are quite different cycling environments over the years, it really drives it home in terms of direct experience of what a difference maker it is, and you'll know this well, of course, but there's been. You know, when I was in Toronto I happened to live in a neighborhood that had a bike lane. I was in downtown Toronto with lots of traffic, but I didn't have to really interface with it too terribly much. I biked every day and it was easy, very easy.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 2:02

In winnipeg I lived probably closer to my the hospital I was working at, never biked because it was a harrowing experience, and being back there visiting, they've actually put a protective bike lane in exactly my previous route I would have biked every day. But the thing is, as you know, it's like I've been the same person roughly the whole time, been into biking the whole time, but that environment that creates that space or that opportunity has been the difference maker. So when I think of times in my life when I've been a daily biker, for pleasure, for commuting or times in my life when the bike's been collecting dust.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 2:37

It's really just due to basically the local cycling environment and those things that mostly local and also provincial government can do about it that make all the difference I've found so yeah, so I think that, yeah, you're correct, peter, I do enjoy biking and that that sort of impact living in different neighborhoods and different cities really every time you and now, as you know, like nowadays, it's like, yeah, I think improving slowly but as well, when travel, you see how good it can be, so there's always that opportunity. You want to keep striving for better.

Peter Ladner: 3:12

Maybe we'll fundraise to send Doug Ford to Amsterdam for a week and he can see how good it is. Oh my gosh, general aim in life, as I understand it, is to work on preventing disease, injury and problems health problems up front, rather than just spending all our energy on better hospitals and better emergency medical service and picking up people injured beside the road. Could you talk a little bit about that, about the importance of prevention, and where active transportation in general and a 30-kilometer speed limit in particular fit into that picture?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 3:52

That's exactly right, peter. As a public health physician, I work at the preventive side of things, looking at how we can protect and promote health and avoid some of the negative and costly health outcomes that could come down the road. So you'll know the old expression about an ounce of prevention, and this is really where we try to put our emphasis in public health programs and in my own role as a medical health officer in the community.

Peter Ladner: 4:17

But, michael, in my political experience a federal cabinet minister once told me the hardest budget to advocate for is prevention, because you get the money, you spend the money. You never have a tangible outcome necessarily. I mean, there are probably exceptions, but tell me how difficult it is for you to sell the concept of prevention and saving money up front against the pressures of doing all the necessary spending on hospitals at the back end.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 4:50

Well, it's an extremely major part of our practice because we see in the acute side of the healthcare system, quite rightfully, an emphasis on treating people's problems as they arise, making sure that people who are injured, for example, or suffering from the long-term consequences of chronic disease, are receiving appropriate medical care.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 5:10

And in the meantime we need to work upstream to try to prevent some of those outcomes from occurring in the first place.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 5:16

And it can be very hard from a preventive perspective to describe all of the negative health impacts that didn't happen because of our good work. So trying to make the case when, if things are going very well, we might not see any of those impacts, and trying to explain the issues that are averted rather than describing all of the, for example, patients that we've treated, all of the patients that we didn't need to, can be a harder case to make in many cases. So we really spend a lot of time working on our communications and our advocacy to emphasize the preventive part of the health care system. You know, depending how the arithmetic is done, usually people will quote numbers to say that public health is 3% to 5% of our health care spending in terms of that preventive side of things. So we do see an opportunity to do more on the preventive side and save those billion dollar budgets that come downstream of when we are unable to prevent negative health outcomes.

Peter Ladner: 6:12

But in the case of the 30 kilometer speed limit, I believe there is data that where municipalities have brought this in, there has been a reduction in fatalities and injuries to pedestrians and cyclists and other active transportation modes, and I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that, about the effectiveness of a very simple what seems to be a simple measure, on outcomes that can be measured.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 6:37

Absolutely the default 30 kilometer an hour speeds in residential areas or 30 kilometer an hour limits applied to specific areas have been increasingly studied and we've seen very positive outcomes right around the world. Certainly we've got examples from the US and from Europe and increasingly in Canada. Studies in Toronto and Edmonton have found decreases in both crashes and then also outcomes, including mortality, where these interventions have been studied, and I find that this is, you know, a really positive intervention because we often find, with public health, a lot of our preventive work you know vaccination programs and some of the work we do for clean drinking water or air quality, for example it's really invisible until it fails. If there's a problem with any of those things, then we know if we see illness and negative health outcomes, but we don't necessarily see the work going on.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 7:29

One of the things with these default speed changes is that people can really experience that right away. People in these communities describe not only just the data show less risk of injury, but people have a different experience of the communities when cars in a residential area are coming through at 30 kilometers an hour versus, say, 50 kilometers an hour plus which. Anyone who's been next to a residential street with a car moving through that quickly knows is a very tangible difference. So people's perception of safety and their experience of their neighborhood environment to cycle, to walk and to move about in really changes. So we actually have quite a visible impact on people's potential well-being and enjoyment of their community. Aside from that, longer-range impact on health too.

Peter Ladner: 8:20

But you must have been involved, as we are, with pushback from car drivers. From the point of view of someone driving a car, you do not want to be constrained. I mean, as a driver myself, I just want to go as fast as I can whenever I'm driving and everybody else get out of the way so I can get to where I want to go. From that point of view, having to slow down to 30 k's is a big frustration, and we have seen political parties cater to that driving mindset with great political success. However, as you point out, if you look at it from the point of view of people in the neighborhood, it's quite a different story, and some of those same people asked about in your neighborhood should cars slow down? In BC, a Mario Canseco survey found that two-thirds of the people throughout the province said they would like traffic to be slower in their neighborhood, and yet we still have this resistance from the provincial government to do it, because they say, well, municipalities can do it, we don't have to get involved.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 9:20

Yeah, there seems to be a real hesitation to move forward with some of these measures, even though, as you've described, researchers found that these are actually quite popular when surveyed. There are certainly interventions out there that public health recommends where we don't have a lot of public support and we could get into things like automated speed enforcement or even sometimes giving over space in the roads to protected cycling spaces, which can be very contentious, and we're seeing right across Canada a lot of debate around some of those interventions. Slower speeds is something where we actually find wind. Surveyed, many people, in fact the majority of people, actually promote that because we find that, as well as driving, most people do spend time walking about their own neighborhoods, and this focus on residential neighborhoods indeed does seem to be an area where we find more support than some of the other interventions for injury prevention and promotion of a safe act of transportation. And yet there is quite a major concern.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 10:20

We see this pushback, whether that's at the local government level or at the level of provincial governments who could potentially enact these defaults. I think there is a major worry that things that are perceived as slowing down traffic will be received negatively and the political courage or the vision hasn't always been there to enact these things has been modeled out by transportation engineers. Slowing down from 50 to 40 or 30 kilometers an hour for that very short part of a commute getting out of one's own neighborhood and onto major arterials is only a small part of the commute and doesn't really significantly slow down commuting times. Uh, in any case, it provides a safer and hopefully uh uh more positive driving experience and walking experience and cycling experience for neighborhood residents, without really contributing to slower commutes the way gridlock does, for example.

Peter Ladner: 11:12

Could you give us the specifics of the difference if a pedestrian is hit, say, by a car going at 50 kilometers an hour and 30 kilometers an hour?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 11:22

Definitely, when somebody is struck by a car traveling at 50 kilometers an hour, studies have found that the risk of fatality can be between 80 and 90 percent.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 11:31

That varies a little bit depending on the nature of the vehicle.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 11:34

We see that even increasing with car bloat, larger and heavier vehicles that are on the road, Whereas when people are struck by vehicles, when this has been studied, at 30 kilometers an hour, we see fatality rates more in the range of 10% or so. So potentially a five to tenfold increase in the risk of fatality occurs just within that interval. Moving up from a 30 kilometer an hour speed to a 50 kilometer an hour vehicular speed at the time of contact goes from basically describing the change from somebody being most likely the vast majority of the time to survive, potentially with some injury, unfortunately, to being more likely than not to die, to pass away due to due to the injury sustained. So within that difference, which makes a limited material impact to the, to the piloting of a vehicle through a neighborhood, we see a great difference in the risk to the piloting of a vehicle through a neighborhood, we see a great difference in the risk to a person being struck who might be walking, cycling or rolling in the neighborhood.

Peter Ladner: 12:35

Well, in fairness to the perspective that I've been sketching out here, there are more than 60 municipalities in BC that have some form of 30-kilometer speed limit, so this is not an unpopular opinion or move by municipalities, but our ask is that it's made default province-wide and then the municipalities don't have to put special signs up and pass special bylaws and incur costs. It's just the way it is. Michael, could you talk a little bit about other measures for safety for cyclists and pedestrians that you are pursuing that are high on your list?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 13:12

Definitely, within our regional health authority, we really try to take the Vision Zero approach, promoting a safer overall, a safer system for transportation, including looking at the roadways, the speeds, vehicles and the drivers that are moving them about, and as well as limiting speeds in residential areas. I think that the actual environment that people are moving about in, that helps to affect both the speed and the nature of travel, is extremely important. So we see, oftentimes when people describe that a lower speed limit isn't necessarily going to slow down traffic, and people will say, well, you can lower the speed limit on this roadway, but if it's built more or less like an airport runway, people are naturally enough going to speed through it. And we say, yes, absolutely, that's the case. And this is why it's an all of the above approach and we really try to encourage some of the well, well described and well applied uh engineering interventions that are available to uh to slow down traffic, to make drivers more aware of their speeds and to make it uh to essentially, you know, add friction, whether that's visually or physically. Uh that leads people driving more slowly. And this could be uh traffic calming measures that we're familiar with, that narrow roads, things that create less rounded and more squared off corners at intersections, anything that can slow people down and add to a more safe driving experience. This is both for drivers and then also for vulnerable road users who are on the roads on foot or on bikes and other devices.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 14:48

So this is another approach we take, really trying to work with local governments to promote these.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 14:53

So Vancouver Coastal Health, although we're a regional health authority providing acute care to over a million residents in our area, also provide funding to community-based organizations and even to some municipal governments to enact some of these measures to try to create safer spaces out in our transportation environment. I agree, peter, when we see so many different communities dozens now, as you said, over 60 that have implemented either slow zones or, in some cases, all of communities, slower cities, this is very positive, but we really need to, I think, socialize and promote the success of those projects. I think that in many cases it's not well understood that, indeed, one, there's positive impacts in terms of people's experiences of the roadways and two, some of the red herrings that we hear about the potential for negative impacts just don't come to pass. These are communities that end up being more inviting to people of all ages to use our street spaces, and it's, generally speaking, a positive experience when we're able to get feedback from residents of those communities.

Peter Ladner: 16:07

Michael, I want to switch gears, as they say, for a moment and talk about the other day. Somebody said to me they noticed I was riding my bicycle. They said oh how virtuous. And I said I am not trying to be virtuous, this is just fun and practical. I don't think that we can expect the nice changes that we all like and that many of us most of us would like to see, the people listening to this podcast would like to see. I don't think we can expect them to happen because people feel virtuous or want to do the right thing, even though it's awkward and uncomfortable or difficult for them. I think, and I think it's been proven and I'd love your thoughts on this that if you just build physical activity into day-to-day life in a way that makes it more efficient and practical for people to do it, they or do something to be virtuous and physically fit. They just worked into their daily life and thereby, therefore, they get healthier, just living, and we make that more able to happen.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 17:15

Well, we find that societies around the world that are healthier, where people live longer and have better health outcomes in terms of chronic disease, are exactly those that build physical activity, that build healthy living into day-to-day life. Without that requirement for day-to-day decision making. When we ask people to swim upstream and to go, you know, almost against the grain to make healthy decisions, we're really fighting a losing battle. I often say that we'd like to have a zero finger wagging approach to public health, so that people are taking on these healthy practices not because the doctor told them to do it or because I saw a TV commercial or a billboard saying it's a good idea, but because we've made the healthy choice, the easy choice, in the first place.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 17:59

So, if it's easier and more convenient and maybe even more fun to bike or to walk to work or to school than it is to get in a car and drive. People are more likely to do that and, you see, in societies where we have higher uptake of cycling, for example, it's in large part because it's been made positive, pleasant to do that, and sometimes as well because there's some friction to driving. Because we don't have necessarily a friction-free driving experience, there might be costs associated with it. Congestion charges in some communities globally have made a difference, and so changing that equation and that decision-making environment can be very helpful.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 18:38

Even where I work for Vancouver Coastal Health and the campus of Vancouver General Hospital, we see more and more work by our own health authority looking at our carbon emissions and trying to promote healthy practices among employees, trying to create better reception facilities for people who bike to work, because a lot of people say they don't mind biking at all. In fact they enjoy being on the bike, but it's arriving at work, finding a place to lock up that's safe, finding a place to change, coming into the patient care or first meeting of the day, having been off the bike and not had a place to shower, etc. That's the barrier. So again, I think that whether that's at the level of the city or town, or right down to the workplace or the neighborhood and housing. Design can all have an impact on people's decision making, at least as much so as simply being told it's the right thing to do.

Peter Ladner: 19:31

Great points. Have you got any thoughts about the effect of active transportation on mental health, which we're hearing so much about today, particularly with young people?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 19:42

Yes, there's more and more research on that. I think that the data the case has been in for some time on the impacts around chronic disease so whether that's blood pressure, prevention of heart disease and so forth, the studies have found that mental health impacts are very positive, whether that's walking or biking, and this could come through a variety of different pathways that have been postulated. So one, just that feeling of physical activity. Two, being outdoors. It's probably a cliche for a reason. It's a common experience, wind in the hair, as it were.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 20:24

People describe actually having fun when they bike, which is not a common description of driving through traffic or a lot of other modes of transportation. People look forward to that part of their days in many cases. Exposure to green spaces in many cases, depending on the nature of the route, there's that opportunity for being around green and blue spaces. Moving around trees or next to bodies of water can be very positive for mental health. There's lots of evidence to that effect. Then finally, social connection people describe being more amidst their community and their community members when they're at ground level, moving through, moving through neighborhoods on foot or on a bike, than they do when they're enclosed in a vehicle. So people have that opportunity to, at whatever the level is right for them to talk to or so much as nod to a neighbor, duck into a local store, and so forth. And so there does seem to be a very positive mental health impact on the use of active and sustainable transport as opposed to vehicular transportation.

Peter Ladner: 21:28

I noticed you mentioned drop into a local store because that, aside from the kind of community interaction that is involved in that, it's also a benefit for those stores. And, of course, the data is there that shows that if you have a bike route or more pedestrians outside your store, you'll have more business. Michael, do you have any thoughts about compulsory helmet laws? Are you a fan?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 21:54

This is a perennial question to your local public health official and right now, the position I would take is that in an ideal state, we wouldn't need to have compulsory helmet laws. And there are places, there are cycling networks and environments on Earth where I think that it's quite reasonable for people to bike without a helmet, and people are doing that in great numbers, relatively safely For the most part. Within our North American context, I'd say we're not there yet. In our North American context, I'd say we're not there yet, and so the presence of the use of bicycle helmets is, I would say, a good idea in the current environment that we have. So that's to say, in shorter terms, that when we don't have separation of bikes from cars, when we do have that need to move in and amongst vehicles, I would say, from a public health perspective, need to move in and amongst vehicles. I would say from a public health perspective, as the saying says, nine out of 10 public health physicians, if not more, are going to say you should probably wear a helmet when you're biking anywhere near vehicles, when that risk is there, and even sometimes in environments without vehicles, where there might be some risk.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 23:00

Now, in terms of actual laws and enforcement of those. I think that we need to be very mindful of the fact that these policies can promote use of cycling. It sends a message that this is a good practice and something that's advisable. We need to be very mindful that the enforcement isn't punitive in a way that discourages people from riding. So if somebody is interested in riding but they haven't managed to access a helmet, they, due to convenience or due to other barriers, don't have one on. We're not really doing anything positive in the longer run, with appropriate car seats for infants and young children, enforcement being not a matter of fining and punishment, but actually saying what's the barrier here and, in fact, providing people with uh, with the helmet in some jurisdictions. So we've seen some positive examples in canada of that.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 24:03

Say, if we're going to have a jurisdiction where we have mandatory helmet use and people aren't using it, what can we do to make that easier? What are the reasons that people might not? So is there the possibility of discounted use? But I would say, overall, we want to get to a place where helmet use doesn't need to be necessary. I think that the environments that we're trying to create are environments that are safe enough that, as we've seen in other jurisdictions around the world, that a person can bicycle essentially as comfortably as they can walk about. I mean, that's the end goal, but I think that for the most part we're not quite there yet and it's again. Would highly recommend, for the most part, using a helmet if you're biking about Vancouver, for example.

Peter Ladner: 24:45

I do feel compelled to note that it does send a signal that this is a dangerous undertaking and if you actually looked at the risk of head injuries, the people who are wearing helmets should be seniors walking across streets and passengers in the cars of people being driven by young men. But we don't enforce those and make those helmet issues but we leave that. We don't have to get into that.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 25:08

Uh, unless you had a comment on that yeah, you know, I do think that again, it gets back to this idea of you know, the status quo transportation that we need, that uh, we'll see, uh, policymakers creating and maintaining rules for cycling that aren't necessarily applied to to other modes of transportation, and I think that this is that's consistent. Unfortunately, we still see the language describing cycling as quote, alternate transport. This is something that's different than the norm, and that we have that sort of differential risk evaluation that you're describing and policies around it are not the same as what we apply to other modes of transportation, and I think that that's, you know, continuing to bring an evidence-based approach to policy and to communications on the topic is really important.

Peter Ladner: 25:56

Well, speaking of evidence, there's one more thing I want to ask you before we wrap up here Right turns on red. This is something that I understand was not the common policy in years past, but was brought in to move traffic along during the oil crisis of the 70s, and now there is, I gather, pretty strong data that shows these are very dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. Do you think we should not have right turns on red lights?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 26:29

Overall and I'll note first of all that depending on the city or town that you're in, context does matter, so I won't make this as a prescription for every community in British Columbia, but, again, overall, to give a simple answer, I'd say that, yes, we should be looking to limit this practice where possible. When we see evidence from other provinces, like Quebec, where, generally speaking, that's prohibited, these intersections become much safer. This is a very dangerous moment in our driving spaces and we see, as you described, this was largely put into place to allow people to roll through without needing to start and stop to save fuel. Then it might be good from that, might be useful from that perspective. I think less so in terms of modern technologies and the current state of our driving environment. It's probably less important from that perspective, but it's very uh in terms of the risk that's there, especially, as I mentioned earlier, when we see roadways with these, um, these turning areas, right, turning areas that are almost designed for speed. So, even where we see, um, red lights or stop signs, but we see these corners that are rounded off a lot, facilitating even encouraging uh, facilitating, even encouraging that continuous motion, failing to slow down, sight lines that don't really encourage or even allow people to have a sense of what they're driving into.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 27:55

It's very risky and I think that we would do well from an injury prevention perspective and from the perspective of promoting walking and cycling, creating environments where people feel and are safe to do so, limiting that in many places.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 28:09

You know, as you said, from right off the top. I think that some of the pushback that we see, we're always trying to look at what's the ideal state and then what's the pragmatic next step. I think that if we could at least look at certain high-risk intersections and start to intervene there, eliminating right turn on red and we do see this in some cases but trying to do this without wanting to become, as we're often accused of being in Canada, the land of the pilots starting to actually intervene, demonstrate where there is success, study these errors and then proliferate that practice, would be a very positive move. The opportunity is there. I don't think that necessarily it's going to be immediately accepted to go across the board to ban right turn on red, but to apply this more broadly, especially to known high-risk intersections where we even have risk, not only in general but specifically observed, with right turns on red. I think that we have an opportunity to intervene and again study, demonstrate the practice and expand it.

Peter Ladner: 29:13

Michael, given the close alignment between active transportation advocates and public health advocates, what would your advice be to people championing active transportation in the smaller communities around BC to partner up with their local public health authorities? Are there forums where you can do this? Are you willing or interested in joining in with active transportation advocates and helping campaigns or speaking to their members, or whatever it might take? How can we make your interests and our interests more closely aligned and working more closely together?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 29:55

Oh, that's a strong yes, peter.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 29:57

I think that public health authorities right across the province are very interested to hear from community members and organizations on this topic.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 30:06

Speaking for Vancouver, we've had a very positive relationship with Vision Zero Vancouver, as well as Hub Cycling and other local organizations working on some of the topics we have discussed today, and I think that that's really crucial when we go to advocate for these healthy policies to local government decision makers and to provincial government decision makers.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 30:28

Oftentimes the health case, though we'd like to think as a health authority that that might carry the day Oftentimes it's some of the other benefits, the co -benefits of these policies that really seem to be influential. So, depending which city councillor you're speaking with, the language of health might be the most effective, but then oftentimes the benefits for local business that you described, for having a safe recycling environment, maybe the climate benefits or some of the improvements to air quality. There's different things and I find that the broad coalition of advocacy with people who are looking at the issue through different lenses could help oftentimes to be more successful in bringing out all of the different good reasons to pursue these policies rather than, for example, a local health official going in and saying do this because it'll limit injuries and take the load off of the emergency room. I would say yes, and you know, the local cycling organization, provincial organization like yours, might bring other cases that might resonate differently, and even more so, with decision makers and with the public who need to support these policies.

Peter Ladner: 31:45

Terrific advice to end on. Thank you so much, michael. It's been very helpful and I love to hear perspective from people who aren't always described as avid cyclists, who bring other interests and very important outcomes to this discussion. So thanks so much for joining us and I look forward to working with Vancouver Coastal Health and all of our members working with their local public health authorities to further these goals.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 32:12

Really great talking with you, Peter. Thanks very much.

Peter Ladner: 32:19

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. An original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice. Thank you.

Tannis Braithwaite, retired lawyer and director with the Connect the Coast Society, shares her passionate advocacy for the Connect the Coast Trail — a visionary cycling project linking Vancouver Island, the Lower Mainland, and the Sunshine Coast along the Highway 101 corridor. 

Inspired by the success of Cycle 16's Smithers-to-Telkwa trail, we explore how provincial and federal support can bridge the funding gap for this ambitious project.

Release date: October 21, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Communities all over BC are excited by the possibility of cycle tourism on AAA routes suitable for all ages and abilities, and we've covered some of these on this podcast the Smithers to Telcoir route, tofino to Ucluelet, the Salish Sea Trail from Salt Spring Island around Couch and Valley into Souk, the Lake to Lake route in Penticton and the Okanagan Rail Trail.

Peter Ladner: 1:02

But maybe the grandmother of all these routes and dreams is the Connect the Coast Trail, because it's so close to Vancouver and all the possible people who could come from there and go north along Highway 101 past Sechelt and Roberts Creek all the way, potentially, to Powell River. All these trails have one thing in common, which is very strong local advocates, and one of the strongest of these advocates is Tannis Braithwaite, my guest today. She's a retired lawyer who is a director with the Connect the Coast Society, which is an offshoot of the Transportation Choices Sunshine Coast Organization, which has been championing cycling alternatives and options on the Sunshine Coast for, I'm going to say, decades. Tannis, welcome.

Tannis Braithwaite: 1:59

Thank you, it's good to be here.

Peter Ladner: 2:02

Could you tell us off the top what is your dream Like if all the plans came to fruition and all the funding suddenly, mysteriously and wondrously arrived? What would we see that you're promoting?

Tannis Braithwaite: 2:19

Well, we would see actually a long distance circular cycle route that would connect Vancouver Island, the lower mainland and the Sunshine Coast in a great big circular loop. Probably the worst section so far for cyclists is the Sunshine Coast. It's the Highway 101 corridor and, for people who aren't super familiar with the geography, you get to the Sunshine Coast you have to go by ferry. There's no road connection, but the Sunshine Coast is not an island. You take the ferry from Horseshoe Bay. It's a 40-minute ride over to Langdale and then Highway 101 runs about 160 kilometers north from there to a small town called Lund.

Peter Ladner: 3:10

You're planning on going all the way to Lund.

Tannis Braithwaite: 3:14

Yes, I mean the Connect. The Coast Society itself commissioned a report back in 2021. Back in 2021, we hired a transportation planner to take a look at the Highway 101 corridor and sort of assess the feasibility of building separated active transportation infrastructure along that route between the Langdale Ferry Terminal and the town of Sechelt Scheldt. After that report was published, Sunshine Coast Tourism was so excited about the project that they commissioned their own report that basically continued the assessment of the corridor from Sechelt all the way to Lund.

Peter Ladner: 3:57

And how feasible is it to build this route? What did the reports discover?

Tannis Braithwaite: 4:14

So the preliminary report is a very high level overview. Basically, the planner took a look at how wide is the right of way, how wide is the roadway, where are the power poles, where are the conflict points with driveways, all of that sort of information, and obviously it is possible to build a route the whole way, but it's not easy. There's places where the geography is very different, there's places where the right of way is too constrained, so there would have to be some private property acquisitions. It's always possible. It's just a matter of how much money you want to spend getting it done.

Peter Ladner: 4:46

Well, you did mention the priority on the first section between Langdale and Roberts Creek. Is that where you're focusing your energy now, and describe what that route would be like if I rode my bike off the ferry from Langdale?

Tannis Braithwaite: 5:02

Yeah, so one of the things that the preliminary design reports did was they did a multiple accounts evaluation which looked at things like what is the level of existing demand, what is population density in the area, what would be the cost of building that route, and so what that enabled us to do was to prioritize segments of the route for development. It's not feasible to try to do the whole route at once, or even the route from Langdale to Sechelt all at once. So the first priority section runs from upper Gibsons to the turnoff to Roberts Creek, so it would connect, basically, the town of Gibsons to a lower speed, lower traffic volume road that would lead to Roberts Creek.

Peter Ladner: 5:59

And you mentioned existing demand. What is the existing demand?

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:04

You mentioned existing demand. What is the existing demand? Well, on a sunny, long weekend day, we see up to about 500 cyclists a day using the highway corridor. That's obviously the peak demand. That's also at the busiest part of the route, which is just outside of the town of Gibsons.

Peter Ladner: 6:24

And are those people coming from somewhere else or are they local people?

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:30

You know it's hard to say. I think they're mostly local people. I actually frequently do counts on the highway, where I sit out on the highway for two hours at a stretch and I take notes about all the active transportation users who go by. What are they doing? Are they walking their dog? Are they riding their bikes?

Peter Ladner: 6:47

Just a second. You get out on a Sunday or a Saturday afternoon, you have nothing better to do than count cyclists going by on the highway.

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:55

That's right.

Peter Ladner: 6:56

Wow.

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:57

It's quite a life I lead.

Peter Ladner: 7:01

And.

Tannis Braithwaite: 7:02

Well, and I try to distinguish local cyclists from tourists, but, of course, the only way I can do that, because I don't stop people and ask them questions. Uh, if they're carrying a lot of gear they've got tents and sleeping bags they get counted as tourists. If they don't have a lot of stuff, they get counted as local people. So it's an inexact measure.

Peter Ladner: 7:23

But, tannis, this very act of yours to sit by the highway and count is very bizarre. When you think that if we were to treat cycling as a legitimate form of transportation, why is it up to some local activist in her spare time doing this research to get it done, doing this research to get it done when, if it involved cars, there would be all sorts of government agencies that would look after this and build it quickly? I mean, why are these type of routes not considered basic transportation infrastructure by the Ministry of Transportation Infrastructure?

Tannis Braithwaite: 8:02

Well, Peter, I think I'm the wrong one to ask that question to. I have no idea. I have no idea why.

Peter Ladner: 8:08

I'll bet you have some ideas, but share them with us.

Tannis Braithwaite: 8:13

Well, I have no idea why that's not being done. I mean, I know that it traffic. I mean the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure does. Do I mean the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure does do regular traffic volume counts? They have a permanent count station as well as a couple of count stations that I think they rove around. So there are count stations for motor vehicles but there aren't any for cyclists or pedestrians that I am aware of, but there aren't any for cyclists or pedestrians that I am aware of.

Peter Ladner: 8:46

So, aside from counting the cars on the highway, what has the ministry?

Tannis Braithwaite: 8:54

done to help you, if anything. Well, in terms of how we're dealing with the ministry, we're just at a sort of information sharing stage, I would call it so. The ministry's position is that they want to work through local governments on active transportation priorities, and so what we have done is we have a professional project manager. Actually, I would like to give a shout out to the BC Cycling Coalition who, when I reached out for help early on in this project, connected me to the Cycle 16 group up in Smithers, who have not only provided us with a tremendous amount of helpful information on how to go about this, but connected us with their project manager, who is now also our project manager. He's an engineer with WSP and he really knows what he's doing.

Peter Ladner: 9:50

Who is he?

Tannis Braithwaite: 9:51

With respect to these projects. His name is Alan Kindrat.

Peter Ladner: 9:56

So you've hired him, the local community activists have hired him. You pay him. Yes, we do.

Tannis Braithwaite: 10:02

You hired him, you pay him? Yes, we do, and he's put together a proposal for all of the things that we will need to have done for our first segment that we're looking at the Upper Gibsons to the turnoff to Roberts Creek that I mentioned and that involves a whole bunch of interconnected steps. You need to do environmental evaluations, archaeological evaluations, stakeholder engagement, topographical surveying and design work, and so we have been working with the local governments to fund that project and we've received some grant money as well to fund that project.

Peter Ladner: 10:52

So you mentioned that MOTI, the provincial ministry, wants to get some leadership from the local governments. How much have they? You mentioned they've given you some money. Are they behind this project or are they just sort of watching with some distant interest?

Tannis Braithwaite: 11:09

I think they're watching with distant interest. So if you look at the BC Active Transportation Design Guide, the only chapter in there that speaks to this active transportation infrastructure in the ministry right-of-way is Chapter F and essentially Chapter F puts responsibility for building and maintaining active transportation infrastructure even if it's going to be in the provincial right-of-way on local governments, and the ministries doesn't get actively involved, as I understand it, until the local processes are at the detailed design stage. So that's at least one or maybe two steps into the design process. You go through multiple phases of design before you actually have a design that's construction ready.

Peter Ladner: 12:13

How much would this cost the regional government if you were to bring it all to fruition? Do you have any ideas?

Tannis Braithwaite: 12:23

Well, I can give you a number and then I can tell you why that number doesn't mean very much.

Peter Ladner: 12:29

Okay, let's do that.

Tannis Braithwaite: 12:32

So the high level cost estimate for the Langdale to Sechelt section is about $100 million. Now the way that that estimate is made is that engineers have a standard per kilometer construction cost that they apply for, say, a multi-use path that comes in three levels. So they look at whether the terrain is easy to build, in medium difficulty or hard to build-in, and the per-kilometer cost. It's about $2 million for an easy area to build-in, $5 million per kilometer in a medium area and about $11 million a kilometer in difficult areas. Now, obviously there's difficult areas and then there's difficult areas. So on the Sunshine Coast, our first segment has at least three, possibly four, stream crossings. We may need major retaining walls, long bridges, and all of that interacts a lot with what the environmental and archaeological findings are, because there's more permitting and regulatory processes that you need to go through if you're interfering with streams, particularly if you've got fish bearing streams, which we do. So at this point it's very hard is what I'm saying to have any kind of accurate cost estimate.

Peter Ladner: 14:10

I can't help but comment that $100 million is the cost of about less than the cost of half a kilometer of Highway 1 widening in the latest expansion estimates. So given what we're spending on cars, this is an almost trivial amount. Now you mentioned the Tourism Association got excited about this project, and you mentioned some involvement from the regional government. What about the local First Nations? Are they?

Tannis Braithwaite: 14:49

involved? Yes, very much so. So our first segment that we're working on is in Squamish Nation territory and they have been very engaged. They're currently reviewing our environmental overview assessment and they will actively participate in the archaeological assessment, and they've been coming to stakeholder engagement meetings.

Peter Ladner: 15:12

Terrific. I once had a conversation with a board member from the BC Ferries who you would know who said that BC Ferries should be looking at the ways people come on the ferries and get off the ferries and if they could shift some of the ferry passengers from cars to bikes, they would effectively increase the capacity of the ferries with very little effort. How much are the BC ferries involved, if at all, in this project, given that it starts at a ferry terminal and, in the longer version, leads to another ferry terminal?

Tannis Braithwaite: 15:51

Well, that's a very good question. I mean, we have not actively engaged with them, with the BC Ferries at all on this project, but I think that's probably our failing. We should be engaging with them.

Peter Ladner: 16:05

Well, we'd like to do a podcast with the BC Ferries, engaging with them. Well, we'd like to do a podcast with the BC Ferries we're having a lot of difficulty getting somebody to come on just about things like their friendliness and wayfinding and so on towards cyclists on the ferries, which I would imagine would have to be built into this project at some level. So what have you learned, tanis, from all of these struggles and tests and studies, other than what section of the of the act is applied to what section of your project? But generally speaking, if you were to share some advice with other advocates in other parts of the province, what would it be?

Tannis Braithwaite: 16:42

well, I think one thing that I didn't fully understand when I started this process is, essentially, what we are trying to do is build a one lane highway, and we're trying to build it without any money, without any staff, without any expertise, on land that does not belong to us, so it is not an easy undertaking to us.

Peter Ladner: 17:09

So it is not an easy undertaking. Just stop there for a second. When you say you're building a one-lane highway, is that because of the width of it, and then there would be two-way traffic on it? That's right, you're not building one lane on one side and one on the other. Okay, so one lane.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:20

No, yep.

Peter Ladner: 17:20

Okay.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:21

But when you think about what goes into building a highway, what goes into building a highway, all of those same things go into building a bicycle path.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:33

It has to be built to a very high standard, and so you need professionals doing the work.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:53

It's not possible for volunteers to actually do the work, and so that means using what influence you can muster to convince governments to help in ways that they can, and to convince governments to help in ways that they can, and we really try and look for ways to make it easy for governments. So as much of the work that we can do, we do do on behalf of whoever is involved, whether it's a local government or the ministry, to try to move the project forward, because the real problem, I think, is that government is largely overwhelmed with all of the issues that they have to deal with, and so and I think that's true of the local governments as well as the provincial governments and so active transportation never seems to make it to the top of the heap, so it just gets shoved aside and shoved aside, and shoved aside, because it's something that can wait for another day, and so we're trying to make it easier for governments to bring it to the top of the heap.

Peter Ladner: 18:53

Governments respond to public opinion. What's your estimate of the public opinion about this, and is it getting bigger or people are getting less interested?

Tannis Braithwaite: 19:10

bigger or people are getting less interested. Well, we have overwhelming support. On the Sunshine Coast is my sense. We do quite a bit of talking at community events and tabling at community events, and everyone that talks to us thinks it's a wonderful idea. The problem is not that people don't want it. People definitely do want it, but they want to have water infrastructure more than they want to have an at-bike path, they want garbage collection more than they want a bike path, and so I don't think it's a lack of support. It's a lack of prioritization for it, and I'm not sure how we make it people's priority over all of the other things that they have to deal with. Believe me, if I could think of a way I'd be doing that. Right now is a perfect time in the election campaign to be raising it as an issue.

Peter Ladner: 20:05

I would like to think that as GHG emissions become more of a concern, as affordability becomes more of a concern, equity people would be wanting more of what active transportation can offer. But obviously I understand, compared to having clean water when you need it, it's hard to compete with that. But do people ever talk about this during political campaigns?

Tannis Braithwaite: 20:35

Well, it's particularly, I think, a big issue on the Sunshine Coast, because the ministry is also looking at the possibility of building a new highway on the Sunshine Coast, also looking at the possibility of building a new highway on the Sunshine Coast, a four-lane, a new four-lane highway that would run essentially along what is now the power line, which is obviously a I don't know hundreds of millions, possibly billion-dollar project. No-transcript.

Peter Ladner: 21:29

It could actually be a real money saver. That's an interesting point. Is that a point that's widely shared, or is that still a bit of a reach too far for the average voter?

Tannis Braithwaite: 21:40

Well, I would say that it's probably about 50-50 in terms of the people who think that a new highway is needed and the people who think that it's not needed. I guess that we should be doing other things.

Peter Ladner: 21:54

This is the same argument that happens all over the province and we tend. Our go-to position on highway congestion is to build more capacity, which, as we know, is a mixed blessing it works for a while and then it doesn't. But I don't know that we've ever really fully explored all the other options better transit, other safe routes for other means of transportation, all the different new micromobility options coming in. All the different new micromobility options coming in. Does your society work with transit too?

Tannis Braithwaite: 22:36

thinking that getting people out of their cars also requires decent transit. Yeah, we have worked a little bit with BC Transit in terms of how the multi-use path would interact with bus stops, but a huge problem for transit on the Sunshine Coast is that it's very dangerous to cross the highway. The traffic volumes on the Sunshine Coast Highway are over 13,000 cars a day on average, and they're traveling at, you know, 80 or 90 kilometers an hour typically, and so you take your life in your hands to cross the highway. There's, you know, stretches of 10 kilometers just on the section between Gibsons and Sechelt where there's no controlled crossing and so people can't get to bus stops.

Peter Ladner: 23:25

Interesting. Well, tanis, if you were to look at the entire project let's just say the part from Roberts Creek to Gibson's what percentage of and the whole project project would take? Let's say 100, what percentage along that route are you now with these various studies and feasibility questions and negotiations and so on?

Tannis Braithwaite: 23:56

um, we're probably at about 10 completion. I would say, um, we're, we're working towards getting a conceptual design. After that there will be a whole series of engagement processes and then, hopefully, a detailed design, and then we start trying to raise money for construction, which is, things get more expensive as you go along the path.

Peter Ladner: 24:25

When you say we, you mean the local governments have to make that a priority for construction or MOTI or your society.

Tannis Braithwaite: 24:35

Well, it's definitely going to become a priority. It is the priority for our society to get this first section built, but you're not going to finance the construction of it, are you?

Tannis Braithwaite: 24:46

No, no, we're not. It's probably, it's probably going to be. The first section will cost, I would guess, more than $10 million, and so, no, I'm not going to pay for that. And local government, frankly, is not going to pay for it. Money will have because it's you know, Gibsons has a population of 5,000 people. They're not going to be able to come up with $10 million to build this infrastructure. So we'll need to have participation from senior levels of government and hopefully that will be both the provincial and federal governments.

Peter Ladner: 25:25

All in all, it's not very encouraging, I must say, but the dream is so big and wonderful that I can't. I'm sure that's why you can't let it go.

Tannis Braithwaite: 25:36

Well, honestly, I'm not sure that it is that unrealistic, like when you look at what cycle 16 has accomplished. This is exactly the path that we are on has accomplished. This is exactly the path that we are on, but it's actually moving probably 10 times the speed of what cycle 16 was able to move at. I mean, they worked for years to get any traction and I mean I think we've already got a fair amount of traction and the provincial ministry has stepped in and taken responsibility for the path up there and we're very hopeful that they will do the same thing for the path on the Sunshine Coast once we get far enough along in the process.

Peter Ladner: 26:16

That's great to hear. I love the precedent of Cycle 16 and it would be so great if that became a precedent for all these projects like yours.

Tannis Braithwaite: 26:26

Yeah, I mean that was a new thing in the provincial budget last year. I think it was $150 million that was allocated for the ministry to spend on active transportation infrastructure in highway right-of-ways. So historically the ministry has funded grants for local governments to build things, but they haven't actually had their own pot of money to build things in the right of ways. And now they do. And that's only a year old, that program.

Peter Ladner: 26:57

Oh, I didn't fully understand that. That's a very good point.

Tannis Braithwaite: 27:00

Yeah, and that's where Cycle 16's money came from to complete that project.

Peter Ladner: 27:07

Well, tanis, all I can suggest, as a keen observer and someone who would love to see this implemented, is to keep that old maxim in mind sell the beach, not the flight. You keep fanning the embers of the vision of this. As you say, when people hear about it, they get very excited and I think if we can keep the focus on that rather than, oh, all the costs and barriers and problems and things to get there, that's what's going to take, and hopefully it will also engender some shift in thinking from the ministry that these things are add-ons and nice to haves rather than basic elements of proper infrastructure for transportation.

Tannis Braithwaite: 27:53

Yeah, I would say I have a sense that things are starting to shift at the ministry. I think historically they've been very focused on regional movement through traffic basically, and not very focused on the needs of local communities, and I think that is starting to shift and when that shift happens, I think we'll definitely see more focus on active transportation infrastructure.

Peter Ladner: 28:21

Well, that's great to hear, because in your case, as in many, many communities around BC, the highway is effectively the main street of the town and without the involvement of MOTI, you can't really deal with these issues. Tannis, thank you so much. Is there anything more you want to say? Parting words of wisdom or anything?

Tannis Braithwaite: 28:40

Just best of luck to all of the groups out there that are trying to make this happen, and thanks to all the local governments who are supporting that, and I hope soon that I'll be thanking the provincial and federal governments for also supporting it.

Peter Ladner: 28:54

As do we. Thanks so much, Tanis.

Tannis Braithwaite: 28:57

Thanks, Peter.

Peter Ladner: 29:06

You've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the bc cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

Explore Connect the Coast's vision HERE.

Hear the inspiration for Connect the Coast on Bike Sense's very first episode back in April 2023: From Smithers to Telkwa with Allan Cormier.

Subha Ramanathan, Manager of Programs and Partnerships for the Share the Road Cycling Coalition in Ontario, explains Ontario's transformative Bike Friendly Community Awards – touching on how municipalities achieve scores (The Five 'E's), how the awards boost active transportation and healthy, place-based competition among the contestants. Peter explores how we might bring this program to BC.

Release date: September 25, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. We've got a great podcast for you today and at the end we're introducing something new and special. Stick around for Peter's rant.

Peter Ladner: 0:39

We are very lucky to have on our podcast today Subha Ramanathan, who is the manager of programs and partnerships for the Share the Road Cycling Coalition in Ontario, and the reason that we're talking to her is that her organization oversees an amazing program called Bike Friendly Communities, which is something that started in the US butS but has been adopted around Ontario and, interestingly, there's even a BC community involved. Subha, welcome to the program. Thanks, peter. Glad to be here. Just before we get into the bike-friendly communities. I'm going to be asking you what difference it makes and exactly how it works and how these communities enjoy and show off their credentials that they get from your organization. But I noticed you have a background in public health and you've done some work out at UBC with the UBC researchers. Tell us a bit about that.

Subha Ramanathan: 1:39

Yeah, so I actually did my master's at UBC in exercise psychology and then, when I came to do my PhD in public health, I started to look at how built environments affected the way that people are physically active.

Subha Ramanathan: 1:58

Physical activity has always been a keen interest of mine and I started to think about what we could do to encourage populations to be physically active. Where you don't have to think about being active, you're kind of tricked into doing it with your lifestyle and researchers that I ended up working with Drs Guy Faulkner, who then moved to UBC. He started to create this program that focused on children and their physical activity levels and the ways that they got to and from school using active transportation and that, of course, encompassed walking, cycling and other forms of wheeling. And we started to look at what it is that motivates people to choose active forms of wheeling. And we started to look at what it is that motivates people to choose active forms of transportation, and it turns out that connections to nature and socializing with other people on the walk to school these are all integral components of being active without realizing that you're being active. And so that was my connection to UBC and my introduction into active transportation that then led me to the Share the Road Cycling Coalition.

Peter Ladner: 3:16

I love that. What else do you do to be active? I presume you cycle.

Subha Ramanathan: 3:21

Yes, I cycle, but I also really enjoy over the last few years Zoom classes. I take quite a few fitness classes online. I garden, I have a wonderful property and vegetables and I've been spending my time canning over the last few days. I try to integrate physical activity into my day-to-day happenings so that I don't necessarily have to dedicate time for exercise.

Peter Ladner: 3:53

I love that. And well, that leads us, of course, to bike-friendly communities, because when your community is bike-friendly, I guess it just follows that people are more inclined to, and more likely to, cycle as a way of just getting around, without being avid cyclists in Lycra with square jaws and long training regiments on the weekends. So, subha, tell me there's an interesting backstory, before we finally get into the topic at hand about the Share the Road Cycling Coalition, about how it started, and perhaps you can sketch that out quickly, but also tell us what Greg's Law is.

Subha Ramanathan: 4:37

Okay, so Share the Road Cycling Coalition was founded by Eleanor McMahon, whose husband, Greg, was an officer in the Ontario Provincial Police and he was tragically killed in a training accident when he was cycling on the roads and he was struck by a truck. And it turned out that the driver of this truck had a few violations, but the penalties for these violations were not as severe as they could have been. And so it turns out if we had more stringent laws in place, then this accident could have been prevented. In place, then this accident could have been prevented. And so Greg's law captures the spirit of that, and Eleanor had gone through several means of advocating for more stringent penalties for violations driver violations so that this is drunk driving you're talking about.

Subha Ramanathan: 5:47

It wasn't drunk driving, I think. There were a few speeding violations and careless driving violations, and so now there are more stringent penalties if there are violations in place.

Peter Ladner: 6:02

Well, let's move on to Thank you. That's a tragic but fascinating story and somewhat relevant with the recent deaths of Johnny Goudreau and his brother, the hockey players hit by a drunken driver while they were out cycling and killed. Thank you, bike-friendly communities. Ranks communities according to their cycling infrastructure. That's my rough take of it, but you now have how many communities in Ontario involved in this and what do they have to do and what happens when they get involved?

Subha Ramanathan: 6:38

We have 52 communities in Ontario involved in the Bicycle Friendly Communities Program, and it isn't just infrastructure. We talk about the five E's that need to be in place in order to show that you are bicycle friendly, and that includes engineering. So that's the infrastructure you mentioned. But then there also needs to be educational programs in place, and that includes cycling skills training for all ages, knowledge of the rules of the road, encouragement that includes signature events, maps for cyclists, programs and services available for cyclists, evaluation and planning. So the committees that are in place looking at active transportation in your municipality, funding mechanisms and the stability of those funding mechanisms and how your cycling infrastructure is being monitored, usage monitored and roadways being built. And then, finally, the newest E that was added last year by the League of American Bicyclists is equity and accessibility. So what efforts are you taking as a community to reach new audiences to foster cycling?

Peter Ladner: 8:00

I love that this methodology was worked out over the years by this Washington DC-based organization and it's now used, I believe, in the states of Washington and Oregon and elsewhere in the US, well, right across the US, and that nobody has to invent anything here. You just have to plug and play. But it's not that easy. It looks to me to get involved. But it's not that easy, it looks to me, to get involved If you are a community and you think, oh, I'd like to get. Well, what can you get? First of all, you get designated. What are the designations?

Subha Ramanathan: 8:32

There are designations from bronze through to platinum. We don't yet have a platinum municipality in Ontario or in Canada, but there are five municipalities in the US that have reached this platinum achievement. Engaged staff, more people on the road cycling, more programs available, more efforts to make cycling a viable transportation option, so not just a recreational option, as you mentioned the folks in the Lycra that are on their bikes, but also the people who just need to get to the corner store, and they have the option to do so by bike.

Peter Ladner: 9:22

So what happens when a municipality goes into this program and say they get a gold standard? I understand they get a highway sign. They can put up your when you approach the highway, the town, by vehicle, I guess, of any kind. But what does it do to the people in the community? Do they get excited about it? Do they compete and get worried if they don't measure up to their neighboring community?

Subha Ramanathan: 9:51

Absolutely. Municipalities are quite invested in this process. It takes quite a long time to gather the data that goes into the application form, and successes are celebrated. There's often a press release with the presence of the mayor. Some municipalities will organize a ride that the mayor takes part in, which really shows support all the way to the top of the government structures. And so communities want to brag and say, hey, we are a bronze community or a silver community or a gold community, and every rank achieves a road sign. So you don't have to simply be a gold community. Even bronze communities will receive one road sign from the Share the Road Cycling Coalition and the option to purchase additional signs to display all around to all the entrances into the municipality.

Peter Ladner: 10:46

Now I notice there's almost like a participation ribbon here you can get an honorable mention, and there was one municipality in BC that was on your list Port Alberni got an honorable mention. How did they get involved, do you know?

Subha Ramanathan: 11:01

A few years ago, we thought of expanding our bicycle-friendly communities program across Canada, and we wanted to see how the standards might follow in municipalities that have slightly different laws than we do in Ontario and slightly different considerations political structures and so the program was available for anyone to apply.

Subha Ramanathan: 11:31

Though we didn't necessarily reach out to local organizations to share information about the BFC program, we did make the program available across Canada, and Port Alberni had applied, and they had many of the building blocks in place. They had a team of staff members dedicated to active transportation. They had some data collection being synthesized on a regular basis. I think what we had noticed is that there were certain aspects, like the educational programs, that could use a little bit more strengthening and more stable funding mechanisms in place, and so we provided them with a feedback report highlighting some of their strengths and showing the ways that they can build towards becoming a bronze municipality, and so that's another benefit of being in the program that you get feedback. You're not just filling out an application, you also have a team of experts that are going to.

Peter Ladner: 12:48

I love that feedback thing. It's almost like a consulting service. Now, what if there were another community in BC that wanted to do this? Are you open to spreading this around the country or, do you like in Quebec? Do you expect the provinces to each have their own initiatives?

Subha Ramanathan: 13:14

initiatives. Well, I think for now we are. We're certainly open. We just created a new application form that is identical to what they have distributed in the US. In the past we had adapted versions for Ontario, but in the most recent version that was released, the 2024 application, it's now identical to what they are issuing in the US, and so we do have the ability to have Ontario or Share the Road oversee the program for all of Canada. We're trying to ramp up our internal resources to be able to do that, but I do think that, as time is going on and there are technologies in place that can assist us in administering a program widely with limited resources, I think that Share the Road will soon be in a position to oversee work across Canada.

Peter Ladner: 14:13

So if a British Columbia municipality wanted to get involved, they could just go to your website, download the form and do the work Absolutely.

Subha Ramanathan: 14:21

Is that?

Peter Ladner: 14:21

correct and then they would get. Would they get the highway sign and the certificate on the press release and all of that?

Subha Ramanathan: 14:27

Yes, feedback Okay the whole shebang yes. Feedback, the whole shebang. Anybody who applies has access to the feedback report from the expert judges. One highway sign, a digital award icon that can be put on their websites or shared through social media and, if they would like to, they also receive a discounted registration to come and attend our Ontario Bike Summit that we run every year.

Peter Ladner: 14:55

Well, maybe we could work a deal for them to attend a BC. We did our own Active Transportation Summit recently and we'll no doubt do that again. But that's wonderful to hear that. I'm impressed and surprised that we could be getting involved. But it's not that easy right. How long does it take? I mean, you mentioned some of the pieces that were in place in Port Alberni, but you've got to get a task force together and the municipal staff on board. Could you just run us through what it would take for a municipality to do this? Sure To apply.

Subha Ramanathan: 15:31

Absolutely.

Subha Ramanathan: 15:31

It does take a bit of time to fill out the application.

Subha Ramanathan: 15:35

As I mentioned, there are five distinct areas that we're looking into, ranging from engineering all the way to equity and accessibility, and it's very unlikely that a single municipal staff person has the knowledge across those five areas, and so you really do need to get together the folks from engineering, the folks who are doing the educational programs, student transportation services.

Subha Ramanathan: 16:01

There's a wide range of departments that need to talk to each other about bicycle friendliness and what they're doing to move towards higher standards of bicycle friendliness and what they're doing to move towards higher standards of accessibility of the neighborhoods, and so we want those teams to get together and discuss what they're doing, share data about what they're doing and fill out this application form, and in most cases, it takes several months I would say three to four months to give justice to the application form and give justice to all the work that you're doing, capture all the work that you're doing in a single spot, and I think that this exercise is actually one of the most important parts of becoming bicycle friendly gathering everything in one area, celebrating your achievements in one spot and having that as your roadmap for the future.

Peter Ladner: 16:58

That makes a lot of sense. Could you tell us about some specific projects that have, say, moved a city or community up from one level to the next city or community up from one level to the next? I'll give you a clue. I read on your website that Ottawa moved up to a gold level One of three communities. Is it Ottawa, toronto? And who's the other one that's the gold one in Ontario?

Subha Ramanathan: 17:25

Waterloo.

Peter Ladner: 17:27

And Waterloo. But Ottawa did they do car-free Sundays in their parkways and they made that every weekend from May to October. Is that, are they still doing that?

Subha Ramanathan: 17:37

Is that a factor in their I'm not sure if they are still doing that. I think over the last few years a lot of these programs have been put on hold. Their gold designation was achieved prior to the pandemic and unfortunately, a lot of these public programs had to be pulled on hold because of resource constraints. But I will say that having achievements like a Car Free Sunday, where you're able to like a Car Free Sunday, where you're able to designate public space for cyclists and pedestrians and people on alternate forms of wheels, it really does show the municipal support and also the public support for having this, because we know that it's not just about municipal staff putting together events. People need to show up for the events. There needs to be support on both sides, and so a gold community is distinct from a silver and a bronze by having high levels of public support for cycling and walking and wheeling, for cycling and walking and wheeling.

Peter Ladner: 18:53

I noticed that in the American one they also have a platinum and a diamond level and you mentioned that there were was it seven or something high ranking cities in the States. Can you name some of those? Just maybe we want to go visit them.

Subha Ramanathan: 19:07

Yes, so there's Madison, wisconsin. That's the one that always pops into my head first. I'm trying to think of the other ones. I don't have the US information in my head.

Peter Ladner: 19:20

Is Eugene Oregon one of them.

Subha Ramanathan: 19:22

There are some in Oregon.

Peter Ladner: 19:27

Bend maybe.

Subha Ramanathan: 19:27

Anyway, we can look that up.

Peter Ladner: 19:28

We can look that up. Speaking of looking things up, I know that the American Bike League puts out a book called their Idea Book which has case studies from all these cities and an interactive map. You can go in and poke around and kind of get a feel for the situation and anybody can look that up at bikeleagueorg slash BFC Idea Book, that's Bike-Friendly Community Idea Book. So bikeleagueorg slash BFC Idea Book. And now going back to the Canadian program, your next intake is very soon, I believe.

Subha Ramanathan: 20:11

Yes, our next deadline is October 11th 2024.

Peter Ladner: 20:17

So if a community in BC wanted to get involved, that gives a lot of lead time for the next one after that would be October 2025?.

Subha Ramanathan: 20:26

Yes, we're moving to once a year in October once a year in October.

Peter Ladner: 20:36

So let me plant the seed to my millions of podcast listeners that if your community wants to do this, now would be a good time to start thinking about it. Go and look into some of these sources, download the application form it has a frequently asked questions section in there and take a run at a chance at a really nice highway sign that calls you some kind of bronze, silver or gold community and boasting rights. Having been in municipal government, I have to say, to go back to the comparison thing, that yes, there's the celebration aspect, but there's also the bit of a shame slash competitive catch-up thing where, hey, that neighboring community got a bronze or gold, we only got a silver. What do we have to do to catch up? Keep up, and I kind of like that because it is a motivating factor and anything that motivates people to do more of this is, in my mind, a good thing. Subha, I'm kind of done with questions. Is there anything you want to add that you think the listeners in BC should know?

Subha Ramanathan: 21:37

I do think that, ultimately, we're all trying to work towards creating more livable communities and by looking at bicycle friendliness, it also makes it more friendly for people with various mobility challenges. It makes it more friendly for new parents with strollers. There's many different types of people that benefit from more livable communities, more active built environments, creating our municipalities and roadways. That helps us to get outside and meet one another. There are just so many benefits to becoming more bicycle friendly that I I almost think that in the future it might be renamed as active transportation communities or something Happy cities.

Subha Ramanathan: 22:33

Happy cities, yes, livable cities.

Peter Ladner: 22:37

We could package that little, those last few comments of yours, and use them at the end of every one of our podcasts, because, as we all know, what we're trying to do is a big, happy thing that everybody wins if we get it right. So thank you so much for your work and sharing that information with us so that maybe we can benefit from some of these programs here in British Columbia. Thanks, subha.

Subha Ramanathan: 23:01

Thank you.

Peter Ladner: 23:05

I wanted to share a very short rant with my producer, Carmen Mills. Carmen, I'm going to ask you do you get bothered by, or notice how many cyclists ride around at night with no lights?

Carmen Mills: 23:19

Well, I might be one of them, so I try to be gentle.

Carmen Mills: 23:23

Well, I might be one of them, so I try to be gentle.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

The other day I was cycling around the waterfront bikeway in Vancouver and half at least of the cyclists approaching us had no lights. Some of these places were unlighted. It was dangerous for me and I can't figure out. Do these people drive their cars around at night with no lights on? Would they even think of that? And just to say that, when I'm riding at night with a good light front and back, I feel way safer than riding in the daytime, because it's really clear that I'm there and I'm really visible. So, cyclists, a light is your safety weapon. Use it and don't put other cyclists at jeopardy by riding around with no lights, thinking you're cool and you don't need to bother.

Carmen Mills: 24:10

Yeah, and I would say actually, if you want to go minimal on that, my personal feeling is the rear light is even more important than the front. It's best to have both, but cyclists are more often rear-ended. So get a red flasher, a cheap one, even wire it onto the back of the bike so you don't have to worry about it being stolen, and that helps quite a lot.

Peter Ladner: 24:31

Oh, one more thing Riding with a light during the day reduces your chance of having an accident by I believe it's 50%. So get a good light, have it on all the time. And if you're lucky enough to have an e-bike, get it hooked up so the light's on every time you start it up. And finally, I have figured out something to say. I get so angry and I don't want to offend people, so I don't want to say get a bike light. I just say lights are good as I'm passing, so lights are good. People, don't forget that You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you liked the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

To learn about the Share the Road Cycling Coalition and Bike Friendly Communities visit sharetheroad.ca. To find out more about US cities and their bike-friendly projects, go to bikeleague.org/bfcideabook

An eye-opening conversation with Steve New, board member of Island Pathways and former Chief Operating Officer of BC Transit.

We explore the ambitious vision of completing the 180-kilometre Salish Sea Trail loop on Salt Spring Island's narrow roads, and dive into the role of BC Transit in enabling active transportation across B.C.

Release date: July 29, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Steve New. He's a resident of Salt Spring Island and I've invited him to come on the podcast for two reasons. One is Salt Spring Island has a very interesting and long-standing organization that is championing a specific route that would have major cycle tourism implications. And secondly, he's the former chief operating officer of BC Transit and I thought he might have some things to say about how bus transit and other forms of transit organized by BC Transit might have an impact on active transportation. So welcome, steve.

Steve New: 1:03

Thanks, peter, I'm glad to be here active transportation.

Peter Ladner: 1:06

So welcome Steve. Thanks Peter, I'm glad to be here. Tell us what is your role on Island Pathways? What is Island Pathways?

Steve New: 1:12

and what are they trying to do? First, I'm a part-time resident of Salt Spring Island, but I serve on the board of directors of Island Pathways, which is an organization that's been active for almost 40 years in advocacy, planning, design and construction of walkways on Salt Spring Island and benches and mapping for walking and cycling and in the last two or three years, has become very active in developing safe, all ages and abilities cycling infrastructure on the island and how's that going?

Peter Ladner: 1:52

I, I was on salt spring island. I don't recall seeing bike lanes. Am I missing something, or were they somewhere?

Steve New: 1:58

else. No, you're quite right. Of the 265 kilometers of roads on salt Spring Island, there's currently one kilometer of segregated cycle path on Upper Ganges Road, but we were very ambitious and we expect that there will be at least another 19 more kilometers if we're successful in completing the missing link of the Salish Sea Trail.

Peter Ladner: 2:29

I really like that image and I'm going to get you to tell us what that is in a second. But I just want to recall an incident in Vancouver or a situation in Vancouver where we had a stretch of the missing link in the seawall around Vancouver along Point Grey Road and that was a big selling feature for taking cars through traffic off that road. So the big picture can work in selling an improvement in active transportation. So tell us about the big picture. What is the Sailor C Trail?

Steve New: 2:58

Yeah, the big picture is that it's a trail of some 180 kilometers. It's a loop that would connect the Cowichan Valley, the Victoria area of the Capital Regional District, as well as Salt Spring Island, and it connects existing segregated and on-road cycle routes in those other regions. And we're hoping that Salt Springs 20 kilometers between Fulford Harbor to the town of Ganges and then on to Vesuvius those two endpoints, with ferry terminals, would be a perfect addition to create a recreational cycling tourism and a place where active transportation users, including walkers and those on bikes, can safely traverse the island.

Peter Ladner: 3:57

Steve, I just want to stop for a moment. You and I are both cyclists. You know that cyclists love to nerd out on their routes that they take, so you haven't told me enough. I'm going to go. Let's say I start in Vesuvius. Then where do I go? I take the ferry over to what's the place? Chimenas.

Steve New: 4:15

Yeah, from Vesuvius you take a ferry to Crofton and from Crofton you'd cycle on some very generous road shoulders through to North Cowichan and Duncan.

Steve New: 4:26

And then get onto the Cowichan Valley Trail which loops out to the Cowichan Lake, back on the trail through the provincial lands back to Duncan provincial lands back to Duncan and then over towards the Malahat along the Cowichan Valley Trail over the Souk Hills Wilderness Trail, connect to the Galloping Goose into Victoria and then Victoria out on the Lockside Trail back to Swartz Bay and then over to Fulford and then into Ganges oh.

Peter Ladner: 5:01

I like that and on to Vesuvius.

Steve New: 5:03

that's where you're staying. Fantastic, and how long is that? That is a 180, roughly kilometer trail.

Peter Ladner: 5:13

So that would be a multi-day trip for most people.

Steve New: 5:15

Yes, it would, and the users could take any part of it. What it does on Salt Spring is it eliminates the narrow in some cases no shoulders in some cases no shoulders in others on roads that are posted at 80 kilometers per hour and make it very uncomfortable for many riders, whether they're advanced or beginners.

Peter Ladner: 5:47

Is this route so enticing that people are doing it anyway now but having problems on that particular stretch?

Steve New: 5:56

Yeah, that's right, they're doing that. Now there is an alternate route that is still quite hilly and with very few, a little less, traffic, but with no shoulders as well, and we're hoping that with that those wider shoulders, that not only residents but also visitors to Salt Spring Island will find it an even more attractive place to visit.

Peter Ladner: 6:24

So let's cut to the chase. How much money do you need and what are your chances of getting?

Steve New: 6:28

it. Well, it's hard to pin an exact figure on that. There's some work that Island Pathways had initiated, and then our partner, the Capital Regional District, that has designated this corridor from Fulford Harbour to Vesuvius as a regional trail. They've now assumed responsibility for a contract to prepare preliminary design and drawings for this route. Based on that, we'll be able to make a more educated guess about what it'll take to complete it.

Peter Ladner: 7:09

So does that mean the citizens of Salt Spring are now relegated to sort of a cheerleader role and monitoring and encouraging and making sure it happens, and not having to pay for it or do the rest of the work Well?

Steve New: 7:20

there's a lot of cheerleading. The records show that there's been 50 years of cheerleading, 50 years of asking for wider shoulders, and we feel that, with the quite complex world arrangement of responsibilities for various works on Salt Spring, that the regional director, a small group called the Local Community Commission, will be able to get on board and determine the priorities for that and then get on with the work. That's not to say and then get on with the work, that's not to say that nothing has been done. For example, just last week, tenders on 1.6 kilometers of one of the toughest sections of this route closed, and that's what's called the Ganges Hill, the hill just south of Ganges, and so seeing that work completed will give a great, a big boost to future work.

Peter Ladner: 8:33

Well, I think you may have heard that at our recent Active Transportation Summit in New Westminster, the Minister Fleming announced the funding for Cycle 16 in Smithers, from Smithers to Telco. I believe it was in the order of $10 million to finish that off, and so I think you should go to the Ministry of Transportation and say that they've now set a precedent for per capita spending on active transportation routes and you're ready to go, presuming those drawings have been done, will you be relying on the Ministry for funding? Funding, or will the regional district raise taxes, or how does that work?

Steve New: 9:08

Yeah, in our case there'll be a partnership arrangement for funding. I'm sure I don't know how it will work out in particular, but typically there'll be perhaps some federal active transportation dollars, certainly the ministry, and there may be some local dollars as well. The minister is someone who knows about Salt Spring event a little over a year ago and was kind enough to cycle along parts of this route. The Minister of Tourism, lana Popham, was on the island just three weeks ago that would be in June. In June looking at the cycling tourism potential and we were able to show her and some of her staff the potential for cycling tourism on the island that with some enhancements in the infrastructure that we can further improve the tourism and the economy on Salt Spring.

Peter Ladner: 10:26

One of the things that I love about cycle tourism is that, from a political point of view, it brings in unlikely supporters for active transportation, such as the chambers of commerce, the tourism hotel and whatever operators bike rental people, business people and I love that. It expands the reach of support that way and hopefully will help generate enough political support to get these projects through. So your vision. I love the Sailor Sea Trail. I've done sections of that. I would love to do the whole thing sections of that.

Steve New: 11:05

I would love to do the whole thing. Yeah, we were very pleased to have other speakers on this day of activities with Minister Popham, and one person, Colleen MacDonald, who is the author of books on cycling, talks about the New Zealand experience, which is very positive and this is a paraphrase, but millions in investment in cycling infrastructure in New Zealand have produced billions in revenue for the economy. You know, we hope we can do a fraction of that here.

Peter Ladner: 11:35

We talk. We cyclists like to talk that way, but I think there's some reality in those numbers, unlike, let's just say, the so-called billions that come from world cup games coming to vancouver or whatever. So I I think it's great that there's evidence from other regions, and all over the province there are these cycle tourism visions and pieces put together, and the more of them that can be completed to demonstrate what actually happens and get some data, the better. So I wish you the best of luck with that, and do you have any next steps, deadlines, timelines, promises that you're waiting to see fulfilled?

Steve New: 12:12

Well, there's a couple of follow-ups. One is with the provincial government. With the active transportation capital projects that were announced last week by Minister Fleming, we want to find out more about how we can participate in the development of future projects. We're very pleased with the projects that were announced, although none for Salt Spring, but with the work that's underway with the CRD and the consultants that we and they have retained for this work. We think that will be fuel for those future projects cycle tourism, not only in southern Vancouver Island, gulf Islands, but also Sea to Sky, the Okanagan and other regions and we're hopeful that she will be a catalyst for perhaps inter-ministry work. Those with money for capital projects, combined with the ministry's enthusiasm for bringing not only BC but national and international visitors in, will be so important. We want to ensure that the tour operators who are operating on Salt Spring at the moment say that they can get cycle groups in at least once. It's difficult to get them in twice because of the unsafe nature of our roads. How?

Peter Ladner: 13:47

about once a day. Wouldn't that be something you know? There was a theme at the Active Transportation Summit that was held in mid-June in New Westminster that rung true to me, which was that we have to be realistic about what the spending is going to be, have to be to realize the dreams of these cycling infrastructure projects around the province and the reality of achieving the Clean BC goals, and it's going to have to be a vast improvement, a whole order of magnitude. It needs a whole different approach to thinking about the $5 billion Ministry of Transportation infrastructure budget and Mayor Patrick Johnson from New Westminster said let's just say we take 6% of that budget as a target and rally around that number, which would give projects like yours the money to proceed seed.

Peter Ladner: 14:49

I want to move on to another topic and ask you about transit. So we've talked about cycling. That's fine, and e-bikes I'm sure will help get up that ganji's hill. But is there a role for transit in these routes and and along these to attract tourists and and open up even more options for these trails so-called trails, actually roads?

Steve New: 15:05

Yeah, yes, there is. And BC Transit, which was formerly a VP and chief operating officer, in their recently completed 2024 strategic plan. What I see although I've not worked with BC Transit in the last 14 years what I see in the work that they've done is that it's an organization that is outward focused. They're looking at issues bigger than just maintaining the bus, keeping it rolling and so on. Maintaining the bus, keeping it rolling and so on, the typical traditional internal focused organization, and so connecting to communities, connecting to housing, connecting to issues like social isolation. These are issues that aren't always absorbed by transit organization when they're working on their strategic plans. So, in the big picture, bc Transit, to my view, is taking that bigger role and adopting it?

Peter Ladner: 16:17

Do they see themselves as being purveyors of being able to carry bikes and things like that around? I know that the buses that go up to Whistler they all now have these bike trailers on them and sometimes they can put bikes underneath and they're willing to encourage cyclists to use that mode of transit as a way to help them be more active them be more active.

Steve New: 16:42

Bc Transit, from what I've seen, either in the past or under the current strategic plan, are definitely looking at ways to integrate other modes of transportation, like cycling, into their world. So, for instance, it's now quite common to have bike racks on buses. It's quite common to have bike lockers at transit stations. These are ways and with higher order transit, like in TransLink with trains and so on, might exist between organizations or geography are lowered as much as possible so that there's a seamless trip for those riders who are going from one place to another and using other modes of travel and using other modes of travel.

Peter Ladner: 17:54

Now the Island Pathways begins with a ferry trip, ends with a ferry trip, one ferry from Swasson to Fasubias, no Fulford Harbour, and the other one from Fasubias to Crofton. Do you at Island Pathways weigh in on the issues of bikes on ferries? Do you, for example, address the lack of signage, the lack of promotion, the lack of instruction when you're getting on and off the ferry, what cyclists should be doing, the lack of bike parking and obvious places to put your bike and all that kind of stuff? Are you on that too?

Steve New: 18:34

Do you see that as part of your island pathways and Sailor's Sea Trail? Yes, we do see it as a role. I don't think we're fully integrated. The cycling arm of island pathways is relatively new in the last two to three, four years and there's some evidence that even in some of the work that's been done by BC Ferries at the Vesuvius terminal plans hasn't fully absorbed all of our wish lists for easy passage onto and off of the ferries in that link. So it's a constant issue that we need to work on. For instance, even at Swartz Bay major terminal, the greetings between ferry users and transit users is still very basic and it hasn't changed in a long time. So being able to upgrade the terminal design and some of the amenities for walk-on passengers to transit, as well as those with bicycles if they're carrying them on those racks at the front of bicycles, I think still needs work, so the job isn't completely done.

Peter Ladner: 19:43

If I, as a cyclist, approach the ferry terminal of Vesuvius, is there any sign telling me what to do, where to go, how to park? Any of that? I mean, I'm just talking about signage, which I think would be a fairly simple and basic starting point. But I don't see signage anywhere on any ferry saying cyclists, go here, do this welcome, take this entrance, pay here no still, you're correct okay, you're correct.

Peter Ladner: 20:08

Well, we're trying to get bc ferries to come on the podcast and answer for some of these sins of emissions but, uh, so far, uh, no results. But I'm sure they're thinking about this, I know they are.

Steve New: 20:18

They've done some surveys, the president appears to be very oriented towards those linkages and reaching out to other partners, but I think the work to date is still quite traditional. There's limitations of space and dollars and so on. But I think we really need to be bold in looking at active transportation and breaking down the barriers between the modes of transportation so that the trip for the customer is seamless and it's well understood and there's understanding about who gets on the ferry first and where you might wait. And it's well understood and there's understanding about who gets on the ferry first and where you might wait when it's pouring, with rain and and similar ways, even just where to park your bike.

Peter Ladner: 21:07

And I understand they were thinking about having some hanging racks. And, uh, our executive director at the bc cycling coalition, mike Kosky, actually worked at ICBC with Mr Jimenez is his name, yes, jimenez and helped him buy a bicycle, actually, and Mike said, no, don't put a hanging rack on a bike on a ferry, because we're not going to be talking about a lot of e-bikes that are heavy to lift up Some people can't even lift them up to hang them and bikes loaded with panniers front panniers particularly that don't make sense to put in a hangar. So those kind of things they're still working through. But your example at Salt Spring is such a vivid one of the intermodality Is that the right word? The change of modes that is required to make these active transportation dreams come true, particularly these cycling tourism routes, is one of the highest performing types of transit in rural and small town areas.

Steve New: 22:06

It was designed with integration at its heart. So, for instance, the market serving the ferry terminals was an integral part of planning that service. Their arrangements were made for the little minibus. It only fits 24 people and on average it's half transit in the community. Integration is the name of the game.

Peter Ladner: 23:05

Perfect. Well, when I go to communities anywhere and I see a bus go by, I always look to see how many people are in the bus. When it's half full or more, I go. Yes, it's being used, they've obviously they're doing something useful. But how many times have I seen we've all seen in, particularly in smaller communities these big empty buses rumbling around once an hour, maybe one, maybe two people in them, and I don't understand why this keeps happening when it obviously isn't serving a need, whereas in a place like pow River they're experimenting with something called a Zunga bus. I think it is an on-demand bus that will, through software, create the most efficient route through all the demands and be much more efficient and responsive to the public. Do you see that happening at BC Transit? Happening at?

Steve New: 23:53

BC Transit. Yeah, I do see it. There's evidence the fact that Powell River is doing it, and Powell River is a member of that BC Transit group of communities. But BC Transit itself is experimenting with a pilot in a residential area in Kelowna with on-demand transit, which would accomplish the same thing. The difference between the Powell River example that you gave and the Kelowna pilot that's being run is that the pilot is structured in a way that can be scaled up to other communities. So at the core of BC Transit's existence is shared services, in other words, being able to develop services that can be extended easily and scaled up to other communities, and the Kelowna model is based upon that kind of technology. That can be then, once piloted and proven successful, can then be extended to many communities with less effort than reinventing the wheel each time.

Peter Ladner: 25:11

Fantastic. Well, I look forward to that. I know it's underway now, I think, the Cologne experiment and it can't happen soon enough, in my opinion, particularly because we have technology now that can coordinate these things. In Vancouver, in Metro Vancouver, you still have to phone a day ahead for HandyDart. It's like imagine phoning a day ahead for your Uber ride. It's inconceivable. And the technology is there to do a lot of these things differently, better than we've done in the past. And obviously an active transportation future has to involve transit in many, many ways.

Steve New: 25:47

Yeah, what I've seen because of my work I was a past chair of the Canadian Urban Transit Association and also in my own consulting practice for nine years worked across Canada and what I saw in BC was that between with TransLink and BC Transit, these were both best of class organizations. They were outward looking, they're looking for partnerships, they're building, looking at innovation, looking at ways to reduce their carbon footprint as an organization and so on, and it was as a former executive with BC Transit I was quite proud to see the organization is still positioned in that way, In a similar way that BC Cycling Coalition. Hub Capital Bikes are similarly so well regarded by other organizations across the country in recent conversations with Cycle Toronto and Velo Quebec that we're punching above our weight class.

Peter Ladner: 27:01

Well, I'm happy to hear that, although we tend to look at Velo Quebec and say, wow, we'd love to be doing what they're doing, but that's a good thing. Well, it sounds like we've sketched out a future here Better ferries, more accessible to cyclists and active transportation, people route, safe routes through salt spring, starting with smithers and salt spring, and on on around, and then some of these rail trails, because I know part of that cowichan valley leg that you mentioned is on a rail bit former rail bed, and so is the galloping goose, and, uh, wonderful future. We did hear, by the way, at the conference that the Saanich kind of sets the standard for suburban municipality using rail trails to increase their mode share. I believe it's up to 8% and it can be done outside the major built-up centers. Anything else you want to add, steve?

Steve New: 27:52

Yeah, just the direction's very positive. The pace of development seems slow at times, perhaps always Well, I don't know.

Peter Ladner: 28:03

I mean, I like to think that if you see the roads, as it were, with a whole bunch of e-bike riders, through the rebates that are going on, and other people like that, the demand will quickly rise to deal with safety. And also when people see the rainbow of these cycle tours and routes, that people, it's easy to get excited about these routes and if I, you and I can get excited about them, somebody coming from Germany or Atlanta could easily also get excited about them and spawn new industries, new businesses and new and ultimately, new spending to make it all happen.

Steve New: 28:41

Yeah, I think so, and with integrated mobility, as I think of it, there's a new way of thinking that draws social equity into the planning process and the policies of road providers, and I think that's also at the heart of trying to make a change, with so many years of emphasis on auto-oriented infrastructure developments, that trying to rebalance the scales to reflect services for seniors, people with disabilities, walkers, cyclists and so on scooter users, mobility device users Reflecting that, you know, in terms of some hardwired new thinking, is going to be an important continuing step to take.

Peter Ladner: 29:39

We also heard about at the conference from people from Indigenous communities having to walk along the highway and cross the road with no crosswalk to get to some semblance of public transit or a place they can get a ride.

Steve New: 29:46

Yes.

Peter Ladner: 29:48

I think that the main theme of the next provincial election is going to be affordability and these initiatives are absolutely delivering affordability and hopefully some of the politicians will see that and make some commitments and we'll get to this next level, because it's waiting out there for us and it's tantalizing. Thank you so much, steve, it's been wonderful talking with you, and all the best to Island Pathways. Go up to Smithers and find out what they did to get all that whack of funding and bring it back and show Minister Povham how excited you are to be matched.

Steve New: 30:24

We'll speak with the Smithers people and with the minister For sure, and share what sounds like your enthusiasm for that project too.

Peter Ladner: 30:33

Okay, steve, thank you very much, and we'll leave it at that.

Steve New: 30:38

Great Thanks, so much, peter.

Peter Ladner: 30:46

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you liked the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

Island Pathways: improving transportation on Salt Spring Island

B.C. Transit's vision

Consul General for the Kingdom of the Netherlands to BC, Sebastiaan Messerschmidt, shares his firsthand experiences of growing up in a country that prioritizes cycling. From his nostalgic childhood memories of biking freely and safely to his current efforts in promoting active transportation projects globally, Sebastiaan offers a unique perspective on the transformative power of cycling-friendly infrastructure, what we can do to up our game, and where BC is getting it right.

Release date: June 06, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education and safety in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Sebastian Meijerschmidt, who is the Consul General for the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and we are going to talk about what BC looks like from the point of view of someone who grew up totally immersed in a cycling culture and what the Netherlands perhaps could offer us, and a bunch of other stuff. But before we do, I'm just going to explain how he ended up on this podcast.

Peter Ladner: 0:58

I was at a conference about the future of transportation in cities and it was almost entirely preoccupied with EVs, charging stations, regulations and so on. And right at the end I stood up and said well, you know, that's great, but there's also a whole other world of active transportation, particularly empowered and opened up and expanded by the arrival and popularity of e-bikes. And after I sat down, a man called Martin van Ouden came up to me, said I'm with the Dutch consulate and we are very interested in this topic. So that led me to a party at Sebastian's place to celebrate the birthday of the King of the Netherlands, the King and Queen, or just the King Just the King, just the King.

Peter Ladner: 1:37

Okay, but the Queen could have been there too. Anyways, and Martin Sebastian has also stepped up to support the Active Transportation Summit that the BC Cycling Coalition is organizing in collaboration with the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, june 18th 19th the Anvil Center. So welcome to the podcast, sebastian.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 2:01

Thank you, I'm very excited. I'm very excited.

Peter Ladner: 2:03

Peter, before we get into the issues, I just want to find out a little bit about you. And first question I've got four questions. The first one is can you remember your first cycling experience or your first time you got on a bicycle?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 2:19

oh you know, was it just well, the dutch people bored with cycles on the feet, so I don't know. Okay, so right in the right out of the womb, yeah, you know, we, we, we get on tricycles and like early stage, early, early, early, early stage, so we play, we play outside, like in my childhood. Might be different now, I don't know how it is now because I'm old, but my childhood we got outside like right immediately on tricycles and then you get the little bicycle with a side wheel to support you, but you want to get rid of those as quick as possible. And then by the time I was like four, like early four, I was riding on, you know, without the side wheels, on my little bicycle through the neighborhood.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 3:08

So let me ask you, not just necessarily about cycling, but have you any other specific memory from your childhood that you would say defines you Well? I think my youth, which also kind of shaped part of my character, was really characterized by a lot of freedom. You get on your little bicycle and I was like five or six and my mom and dad would not see me. I would just morning come back from school, I would say, bye, I'll get on my little bicycle. I was like five or six and my mom and dad would not see me. I would just morning, like, come back from school, I would say, bye, I'll get on my little bicycle, I would go outside and I would play outside all day and the only thing I needed to do was back home before dark. That's the only thing, and then we'd have dinner or whatever. But so so, and that's really I love that, because also the towns were shaped like, especially in the 1970s.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 3:45

The town environments were shaped to really cater also to kids and to cycling infrastructure. You could ride around in a whole neighborhood without feeling unsafe. My parents weren't worried. I think today's parents maybe including myself, are a bit more helicopter parents. We're way more on top of the safety and security of our children. They're a bit more scared and anxious about that. Back then I could just go outside and play and that involved bicycles and one of the things that we would make noise. We'd get these little. You know how you get these things where yogurt is put in like they're plasticky, if you cut them up and you take a peg and you put it on your spokes.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 4:28

Yeah, and it makes a lot of noise. And when you're six, seven years old, that's fantastic. And if you have like 12 of them, you make a lot of noise.

Peter Ladner: 4:36

No, I have to just throw a plug in here for Yutai Lee's video that he did about why kids don't walk to school anymore. It's about 12 minutes long, it's had 1.3 million downloads and it gets into that whole question you were just talking about. Back to you is there a specific project you're proud of that you've been involved with at any point in your career?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 4:58

There's many because I happen to love what I do. The fact that I get paid for this stuff is amazing. There's many things I get to do which is fantastic, um, and some of them are also bicycle related. Uh, we supported the bicycle mayor of cape town. My former posting was in cape town, south africa, and issues around public transportation and local transportation and active transportation are different there from here.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 5:22

Um, and this guy was, and also this predecessor, the woman, lebo Gang, and since both were kind of amazing people, they work in the townships to teach people how to ride the bicycles and that's more healthy because you find more people that are having an unhealthy lifestyle. It's cheaper. You find a lot of people that don't have the money and public transportation into town is sometimes a quarter of what people earn and it's more fun. And they made such an impact with just these projects. So the bicycle mayor that kind of advocates also towards the municipality and towards the city, like guys, if you make the infrastructure, people will be less reliant on public transport or cars and it will be better for all of us and and it was, they were very passionate people and for us to put a little bit of a money with that to make them work better and then also support them in the, in the infrastructure and also in the in the governance fantastic could you explain what?

Peter Ladner: 6:20

what is a bicycle mayor? That's not like the real mayor who happens to be a cyclist. It's somebody who says they're a bicycle mayor.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 6:26

No, no, bicycle mayors are more or less, yeah, they're like ambassadors for bicycle riding. There's an organization called Bikes B-Y-C-S in the Netherlands and they have come up with the concept, so the bicycle mayor of Amsterdam Fietsburgermeester is the Dutch word, if you have any Dutch listeners and they started in the Netherlands to kind of advocate more bicycling infrastructure and it's spread around the world. It reads everywhere there is one in Toronto, there's one in Victoria, there's one in Waterloo, not one in Vancouver. Yet We'll get there. I'm here now. I'm here now. I'm here now. So it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. I was gonna ask you what? What can we learn? Don't worry, okay, later.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 7:14

So that was really, uh, it was, it was a low-hanging fruit for us to, because it serves our global challenges and our global ambitions for the sustainable development goal and and supporting uh, our adaptation towards climate change and also mitigating the, the effects of climate change.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 7:26

So it serves a bigger goal, but also serves the, the goal of of development cooperation, where you want people that are less fortunate to have money to do, to go in different ways of transportation, to be able to actually go from hb uh in a sustainable manner, and so it serves so many. And then also it's a social cohesion. I did a tweet like if people are on x, still you can have all the kinds of debates, whether that's a good or a bad thing. I'm not going there, but uh, I did a tweet in cape town level hung was her name, the bicycle mayor there and she explained really eloquently what riding a bicycle for for a so-called black woman in cape town means and how you also meet other people. It's a social thing, it's a social fabric thing, it's a transportation thing, it's a health thing and it's a money thing.

Peter Ladner: 8:15

So yeah, quite interesting so is cycling, promoting cycling. Is that a policy of the Dutch government? I mean you. You stepped up to support our, our active transportation summit. Yeah, is that part of your mandate to get people onto bicycles wherever there's a Dutch consul general?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 8:35

well, you know, we we aspire still to be bicycle country number one, but we also aspire to help achieve the sustainable development goal. So, yeah, it's definitely part of our mandate. Also, we really as allied countries like Canada and the Netherlands. We really share norms and values. We share an outlook on the world in many aspects, so we are natural partners to work together to improve each other and inspire each other. And one of the ways to improve and inspire each other is looking at mobility, and there's many things that we can learn from the Canadians. In many areas, many things you excel and the Dutch can learn a lot. There's a few areas where I start being very arrogantly bragging about what we can bring to the table, and when it comes down to active transportation and mobility, I think that's an area where we excel, but at the same time, it's an easier win for us.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 9:37

Our country is flat. Our mountains are called the wind. There's no mountains, it's all flat. So there's a song called the Dutch Mountains. You might want to look it up on YouTube one day. It's actually about the wind. So there's no mountains, so it's easier to ride your bicycle right and the infrastructure is there.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 9:55

It wasn't always there. People think that it was always like that? Forget it. Look at pictures of Amsterdam in the 1970s. It was infected. It's just too many cars everywhere and people were stuck in traffic the whole day. It looked horrible and there's a lot of pictures on it If you go Google it.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 10:19

We transformed that in a matter of one and a half decades. How did that happen? Oh, it was a bit of a revolution and not everybody was happy at the time. There was a lot of opposition, especially from people owning shops and people thinking that you need to be able to park your car closer to the shop to actually be able to sell something, because people will not carry it otherwise to their bicycle and get home you know what research shows otherwise through their bicycle and get home. You know what research shows? Research shows if you make an area car-free but make it really accessible by both public transport and by foot and by bicycle, your revenues go up. They don't go down, they go up. As long as you make it the connectedness and intermodality and that's very important, the intermodality if you get that right, then more people will flog in and go to your business.

Peter Ladner: 11:06

Explain more what you mean by intermodality.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 11:10

So it's really important to look at transport not just from a single mode of transport point of view. If you connect the dots really well, more people will be able to move from A to B in a way that's more sustainable, more healthy and more efficient. People get there quicker and happier. So that means if you have a bicycle infrastructure that's really well connected to a train infrastructure. Research has shown in the Netherlands that people that take the train the numbers have gone up substantially substantially, like tens of percentages because they started building really good bicycle parkings where the bicycles were safe, and then the train stations also started to appear repair shops. So if you get to the train station you happen to have a flat tire, you don't need to walk home for eight or nine kilometers because you have a repair shop right there. You come back from your day of work, you get out of the train, you do that last five, six kilometers. Your bicycle is there. It's repaired for you.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 12:11

Also, what happened in the Netherlands is we have our public transportation, especially the trains. They've started their own bicycle rent-out schemes, which is called the public transportation bicycle, the OV-feets in Dutch. They're yellow and blue. You see them everywhere. You get to the train station. The major train stations all have them. You have a subscription, you have a card, you can just get a bicycle. If you don't have a subscription, you just pay and you arrive there and there's hundreds of them so you can choose one. You get on your bicycle and you go to where you need to go.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 12:40

And especially that intermodality, if the last five to 10 kilometers, if you can do that on a bicycle, it saves a lot of congestion. It saves a lot of infrastructure for parking of cars, which take 28,. It's 28 times the size of infrastructure you need for a car than for a bicycle. It's not just about parking you can't park 28 bicycles on the side of a car but also the car lanes and everything. Everything that comes with a car infrastructure is 28 times as big One car, 28 bicycles. So if you can make that jump your efficiency also with town planners or cities that are congested, the benefits are enormous. But you got to connect the dots Because if you have the bicycle infrastructure not well connected to your public transport, it's not going to work. Then nobody's going to do it.

Peter Ladner: 13:35

So, sebastian, you've talked about two things the flatness of the Netherlands and the number of trains that are out there. We don't have. Well, we have SkyTrain in Metro.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 13:44

Vancouver, beautiful SkyTrain. Translink is doing well. It's a beautiful thing. I like the SkyTrain.

Peter Ladner: 13:51

But when you think about the whole province, you arrive here as the Consul General and you're aware of all these things. With this kind of experience, what observations do you have about how we might do some of the same things, knowing that we have mountains, hills, bigger spaces, fewer trains?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 14:11

Yeah Well, you have a few challenges and a few opportunities here that are different from where I'm from. So because you have more space, it's easier to build infrastructure somehow right. So you can have more terrain track because you have more space. We don't have it. We have to be all very efficient on very small plots of land. So you can do more and you can see it also in your buses. Your buses are big and your buses in vancouver also have a. You can put your bicycle in front of the bus on a rack. Fantastic stuff. We don't have stuff. Also, the modality with the buses is quite impressive. I find the bus system in Vancouver quite well organized. I take the bus a lot and even on Google Maps you can see when the buses come. It works.

Peter Ladner: 14:56

I know some shuttle buses between regions have accommodation for bicycles and some of them have a trailer in the back that they can take a bicycle the one from Worcester to Vancouver. Yeah, exactly, talk more about regional transit.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 15:07

Well, there's your opportunity, because nobody's going to ride a bicycle from here to Kelowna, right From Vancouver to Kelowna. Nobody's going to do that unless you are a mammal, middle-aged man in Lycra and you like working out which I might want to do one day because I am one of those then it's fun. But for transport, if you talk just normal transportation, people going from A to B nobody's going to take the bicycle from here to Kelowna, so you need the bus, the train, the car to actually do that. So then you're aiming for a really healthy and good and active transportation, at least for the last mile or for the local area where you are. And if you have a really sustainable way of doing the bigger distances, then great. But that opportunity is not always there. So then you have to think cars, so that the buses have racks and trailers that you can put your bicycle on is really awesome. That's something we don't have in the Netherlands. It's a big opportunity, it's great that you have it and it works. So in some ways we are a bit ahead of you, but we had an easier environment.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 16:09

The Netherlands is maybe what? One and a half times Vancouver Island in size, and we have what? 17 million people, 18 almost so we're all densely packed together, so our bicycle lanes don't have to go for hundreds of kilometers, because then you're in Germany or in Poland or in France or in Spain. So we don't have that for hundreds of kilometer, because then you're in Germany or in Poland or in France or in Spain. So we don't have that, even though also there you see, european, we have a really dense network of bicycle lanes and it's nodes and it's a well-structured system and that's also spreading to. The Belgians have it too. So we're connecting the two. So we now have we call bicycle highways, almost door fietsroutes, which is kind of how would you translate that Thru-go bicycle routes, that kind of more long distance for people that are wanting to go longer distance. You can go from town to town, it's all connected.

Peter Ladner: 17:08

I want to go back to how you get there from here, and you mentioned the pushback, and then you said there was data that shows, and we found the same thing here. When a bike route goes in, it's quite typical for the adjacent businesses to scream horror, it's still. We're still fighting this out in vancouver on commercial drive, and then the data shows that they actually do better. Is there other data that shows the benefits of of cycling that somehow help tip the balance and win public opinion? Or is it just a matter of having the courage to put something on the ground and then let people see and experience it for themselves?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 17:42

Yeah, it's the courage of having people experience it for themselves and then demanding it from their cities, from their towns, from their councillors, from their mayors. Please do something about this, because we want more of this.

Peter Ladner: 17:56

So, other than these kind of exhortations for change in public policy, are there Dutch businesses? I know part of your job is to promote Dutch businesses in exchange of commerce and so on, but are there levels of expertise or new technology in this field that you feel we could benefit from that you already have in the Netherlands? I mean, you mentioned the bike garages at the train stations, but other things?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 18:23

Yeah, definitely. Now let me just first jump a little bit back. So modern diplomacy is really about building ecosystem, especially between allied countries. So I'm not here only to sell Dutch product. That would be the old style diplomatic way. We really want to innovate together. We want to get to those solutions together. So if there's a really good Canadian company that does business in the Netherlands, I think we both profit, or the other way around, I don't really care, it needs to happen. And also in the transportation system, same thing. There's some really good thinkers out here and in the Netherlands. If you connect them, you get a more beautiful product.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 18:58

Actually, to continue on that note for a little bit before I get to your question, george Liu, who is coming to the Act for Active Transportation Summit, is working for the Amsterdam municipality, but he's actually a Vancouverite before, so he's Canadian. Chris Bruntlett, who is a Vancouverite before, is now in the city of Delft in the Netherlands running the Dutch cycling embassy, like the Canadian becoming totally Dutch, like super Dutch, wonderful, super Dutch so, and actually promoting this now. So, and that's the kind of thing you want to happen, because that's where you start to innovate together. There is, if there's research institutes and universities that kind of collaborate on these things. That's what you want to happen. So that's actually also as we are, as a consulate, also stepping into this ecosystem. That's what we're hoping to get to, where we get people to talk to each other across the ocean, across the big land that we have between us, but start exchanging ideas.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 19:56

And there's so many revolutions going on at the moment which will make active and sustainable transportation more attainable, and some of them are small, some of them are big. The big one, of course, is the electric bicycle, the e-bike. There's no more excuse for you, if you live in Vancouver, to not take a bicycle because it's so hilly. So what? It's hilly. If you have an e-bike, you can get on your e-bike and get across those hills, and that would apply to any town in BC, that's right, that's right.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 20:31

So the e-bike, although they're still expensive, so it's more. It's maybe not the elite elite, but you have to be. You have to earn a pretty good buck to to to buy a nice e-bike. But the second hand market, second hand market is coming up because the first generation is coming on to facebook, marketplace and what have you, and craigslist, so you can get there. You can get there. I've seen really good to offer, so e-bikes are becoming attainable. Other things, um well, just on the attainable e-bikes are becoming attainable.

Peter Ladner: 21:00

Other things. Well, just on the attainable e-bikes, just a footnote there, the city of Saanich has had an e-bike rebate program. Depending on your income, you could get a subsidy to buy an e-bike, and UBC has just published the results of a survey to find out what the impact was, and they were very positive about a lot of car trips replaced. What the impact was, and they were very positive about a lot of car trips replaced. Yeah, nine out of ten of the people who got the major subsidy would not have been able to afford an e-bike otherwise.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 21:26

So this is something again the bc cycling coalition is pushing for and they go and look at your bike share system really well done. There are stations everywhere over vancouver. I haven't seen in other municipalities as much, but in Vancouver it really strikes me. If I want to just get on a bicycle, I can get the app out. Usually within a kilometer I can get to a bicycle Fantastic. Some of them are electric even Really great and you see the trucks coming by to load them in, to make sure that they're all maintained, bring them into the workshop and put them back out again. That's a really strong proposition for a better way of transporting your people in your city while saving making sure there's no congestion, saving some bucks for the people that maybe have to save some bucks or want to save some bucks, and keeping people healthy. It's also relieving some pressure on the health care system.

Peter Ladner: 22:23

When you ride your bicycle around Vancouver, when you're not out for a serious ride with your Lycra, do you wear fancy clothes? Do you just wear ordinary clothes? Or do you not even bicycle around Vancouver? You said you go on the bus.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 22:38

No, I take the bus occasionally. I prefer the bicycle and I sometimes unfortunately have to take the car because of the distances and the time that is to me. So that always irritates me. I don't have the time to go on the bike. I'm always a bit frustrated.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 22:52

I rode my bicycle this morning. I put on my jeans and I ride the bicycle to work and I change at work, put my suit on or whatever I need to wear that day. I have a little backpack on my back where my clothes are in Works, fine, and you know what? We don't melt in the rain. So when it rains or even when it snows, there's gear out there which you can put on your rain pants or your rain over shoes and then you're fine.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 23:21

You get home, you're happy and riding in the rain actually people don't know that. People that are driving in a car all the time do not know that the experience of riding in the rain is actually fun. It's only that transition from that time when you are still inside and you look at the weather outside you go oh, it's raining. That's when you kind of don't want to go. And then also the first maybe two minutes when you're in it, when you first start getting, oh it's raining, but actually, when you're in it and you feel those little specks of rain on your face, it's actually nice. It's actually really nice.

Peter Ladner: 23:56

One of the things I always think when I'm riding in the rain and I can see people in the cars going by, I think do they know that I'm warm and dry and having a good time? Probably not.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 24:06

No, they don't. They won't believe you when they tell you. There's one thing, though, before you go on to the next question, there's one thing, though. That's different from me here than riding in many cities in Europe, not just the Netherlands is I'm a bit more scared of the traffic here, so I really commend the city of Vancouver of having worked out lanes where bicycles are more safe. So I know my routes. Now I know how to get from my home to my office and taking routes that are fairly traffic low or even have a separate bike lane.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 24:45

But in the beginning, when I didn't know, I sometimes made a mistake to take the wrong road, and then it's just scary because people are not as used to bicycles out here. So I can't rely on a car when I'm passing, when I'm riding my car, car passing me taking a right, I can't rely on that person to look over the shoulder to check whether there's a bicycle there. That's the first thing you learn when you're taking driver's lessons in the Netherlands. You have to look over your shoulder to make sure there's no bicycle, look in your mirror and look over your shoulder to make sure there's no bicycle when you're turning right. Now, you can't rely on that here. So I'm wearing a helmet here, which is the way. More is the law. But my wife always screams at me when I try it out too, because I'm done, we don't do it, but it's also, it makes sense. After the first few times I'm like, yeah, I do want to wear my helmet here Because it's just, it feels a little.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 25:33

And that's where I think there's an improvement to be made, like making people aware that there's different modes of transport. People that are in a car, there's people on scooters there, people on bicycles there. Those people on bicycles and on scooters need to behave, because if they irritate the cars drivers, then it's going to get worse, and that's what you see sometimes. I'm irritated when a bicycle rider takes the Granville Bridge, because you will just make the car drivers very angry, and it's not good for me either, because then they will look at all bicycles go, oh you, and then beep bicycles. So you got to be sensible about this. So you got to educate each other and share the road, but then make it in a way that bicycles understand. Okay, this road is really for cars. I should not be here. Let me just go a different way.

Peter Ladner: 26:19

So that brings me to. We're going to wrap this up in a minute, but we've talked quite a bit about Vancouver and the places that have a higher level of bike lanes and protection and bikes on buses and so on, but a small community where the prevailing necessity, let's say, is that everybody's in their car on the roads and the roads are not designed for cyclists at all. Do you have any advice for people in those smaller communities, what they can do, based on the experience in the netherlands of converting from a pretty much all car culture to a pretty much all cycle culture?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 26:58

yeah, um, I think think it maybe takes groups like the BC Cycle Coalition and HubCycle to kind of work out maybe programs first where they can have people experience being on a bicycle going from A to B and negotiating with the municipality hey, can you close this road off? We want to do a bike to school week. Can we just try this out for one day a year to kind of have people get in touch with it? Because you first need that base of people saying, okay, this is feasible and I will do it once it's there, because no policymaker is going to put in very expensive infrastructure if the policymaker doesn't believe that that it's going to pay off.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 27:43

Yeah, yeah and then and then and then maybe you know you can take the back alleys. First, if the, if the, the city doesn't have the bicycle agency, you can take the alleys. That's the nice thing about city infrastructure in canada usually you have the major road and then you have the small back alley which you can, which can work for a while and that can get people on the bicycle, and then you actually really just have to lobby your decision maker, your town planners.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 28:08

Well, speaking of back alleys, the town planners that look further ahead and who talk to the developers of area.

Peter Ladner: 28:17

On the matter of driving back alleys, of course sometimes people bail out and ride on the. On the matter of of uh, driving back alleys, of course sometimes people bail out and ride on the sidewalk, which creates problems with pedestrians yeah and is not a good idea. However, I just wanted to ask you about in amsterdam, with all those uh cyclists driving around, there are conflicts with pedestrians and uh, what? What's your, your thought, what are your thoughts about that?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 28:43

yeah, it can get. It can sometimes even get ugly. Um, not just in amsterdam. There's this, this intersection in the hague, which always fascinates me. There's an internet section in the hague, very close to the town hall, where tram goes through tram, tram line. There's cars coming through, not many, only taxis and buses, and then there's bicycles and pedestrians and there's no signs on the road, there's no lines, there's no dotted lines, straight lines, nothing, nothing. And it's a big intersection. The first time you see it it's intimidating, it's scary, peter, you know what research says it's safer, fewer accidents. You know why? Well, people pay attention. They don't rely on signs and stuff. And now it's my way, so I can just go 100 miles an hour through this area. No, they have to actually pay attention themselves. And it works. And the first time I saw it I thought it was intimidating. I was like this is scary, I need to get from here to the other side of the road. I'm Dutch, I was born there and raised. But you know, it worked and it seems to work. Data shows it works.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 29:52

And Amsterdam it's usually people that are not accustomed to the way of moving. So the tourists that walk on a bicycle, road Bicycle of moving. So the tourists that walk on a bicycle road, bicycle paths in the Netherlands are red. They're very visible. They're red, red tarmac, red asphalt. So it's quite clear to everybody who knows it that you're walking on a bicycle path and that might not be the smartest thing to do. It's like walking on a highway while walking your dog. You don't do that right. You don't walk your dog on the highway, so why walk with your suitcase on a red asphalt bicycle lane? The thing is, people that come in as a tourist don't know this. You can't blame them because nobody told them. So they usually find out the first 15 minutes that they're there because there's bicycle coming by and they first ring jing, jing, jing, jing with their little bell on the bicycle. Of course tourist doesn't know what that means, keeps walking. Then you get a little bit of a Dutch directness thrown at your head in verbal, verbal, not very nice way, because it's unfortunately who we are. We're quite direct, but then you know. Then you know you figure out oh wait a minute, this maybe. Figure out. Oh, wait a minute, this maybe is not my place, and that usually goes okay. But you have to like and also you have the youngsters Like I was a student in Amsterdam.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 31:03

I was very irresponsible. I had a very irresponsible game which I maybe should not talk about on the podcast. I was studying, I was living on one side of the Amsterdam, I had classes on the other side of Amsterdam. My game was to go from one side of Amsterdam to the other side of Amsterdam without stopping. Now that, peter, is a very irresponsible bad idea. It went okay because I was quite agile and the police stopped me once and said really, what are you doing?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 31:32

I'm like, yeah, maybe this was a bit yeah, but the fact is it's kind of organic. The good thing about it is it's kind of organic. The good thing about it is it's kind of organic. The bicycles and the cars they know each other and they organically move with each other. If you know that a car is taking a left, as a bicycle, you kind of tail because you know that car. When the car is going, it's safe, so you can kind of tail. Dutch people do that. It's organic. And when you approach as a car coming and you see you always check is there anything around it? Is there a bicycle around it or moped? You know it's an organic wave.

Peter Ladner: 32:05

Yeah, it works so I I don't think we want to go on the record saying that the recommendation from the consul general no, it isn't, it was stupid, I told you no, no, not that you drive around without stopping, but that you take away all the traffic signs and let people just sort it out.

Peter Ladner: 32:22

There is an example of that in Vancouver, by the way, which is Granville Island. There are no traffic signs there, and the pedestrians and cars and cyclists all work it out by being more careful. Well, we're happy to accept your label of us as frontrunners in anything regarding cycling and would love to stay in touch and encourage you to join in with any of these advocacy movements and help us achieve even part of what you've done in the Netherlands, which is such an inspiration for us all. So thanks so much, sebastian.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 32:57

It's a passionate subject for me, so I like talking about it. Thanks so much for the opportunity, much appreciated.

Peter Ladner: 33:07

Thanks for listening to Bike Sense and supporting safe cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. The BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. The BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors BC Hydro, richards Buell, sutton, icbc Moto and the Bicycle Pro.

www.nederlandwereldwijd.nl and/or www.netherlandsandyou.nl

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Twitter @NLinCanada @smesserschmidt

How does a fleet of cyclists lobby City Hall at a meeting where there's no bike parking? BCCC Bike Valet Grant Administrator Sam Holland explains how that bike parking gap in San Francisco in the 1970s led to an explosion of bike valet parking around North America. He explains how bike valets change the way people get to festivals, sporting events, town hall meetings and shopping destinations, including a couple who ride from Saanich to downtown Victoria to shop just because their bikes are protected by a bike valet.

Release date: May 06, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Six, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety. I'm your host, Peter Ladkin, chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Sam Holland, who is the Bike Valet Grant Administrator for the BC Cycling Coalition. But I'm bringing him on the podcast because he is very knowledgeable about bike valets. So we're going to ask him about what are they, when do they work, what do they actually do? Are they effective in getting people to change their way of moving around? And what are some great examples? And if you want to put one together yourself, what do you need to know? So that's the general drift. Sam, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Sam, how did bike valets get started?

Sam Holland: 1:11

So, I mean, with every origin story, right, there's a little bit of uh urban myth involved, but we're good with that. The best, the best that I've seen is that about 1994 in San Francisco, as part of the pro-cycling infrastructure, critical mass um type protests, people would ride to City Hall. Um, but then they would they would get there for the hearings, for the discussions on like uh public funding, um, cycling infrastructure. They couldn't go in because there was nowhere to park their bike, uh, which is such a classic, like, of course we need infrastructure, but we can't even go to city hall to complain about it. Uh so what they did, one guy was like, Well, you guys all need to go inside. I don't need to go inside. So I'll stay and guard your bikes. Uh, you just leave them out here with me, I'll make sure no one takes them, and you can go in and talk. And that was the the story of the first bike ballet. And I actually, that's one of the things that's really fun for me about bike valet, is it it really feels like part of that um you know, 70s, 80s, 90s cycling counterculture that you sometimes find at like really funky bike shops and uh the cycling anarchist collectives. I I just I find those very fun. Um and bicycle valet fits in that because it's something you can just do. It doesn't require a lot of comp it's not complicated, it's not expensive, it's just uh a simple solution for a simple problem. Uh and that just really fits with the that kind of part of the cycling culture, but it just benefits everyone.

Peter Ladner: 2:42

Uh so I love how it can be as simple as one person standing there beside a whole bunch of bikes, making sure nobody comes and steals anything. That's pretty basic.

Sam Holland: 2:54

It is. I mean, that's that's the at its most basic, that's what bike valet is, right? Everything else is just refinement, efficiency, uh, extra security, but it's just making sure no one steals your bike, and I think everyone can get behind that. Absolutely. So just to keep things really clear, uh today when we're discussing bike valet, um, I'm meaning something more like a coat check for bikes. So you bring your bike, um, you get a tag, someone whisks your bike away and parks it, um, as opposed to something like uh a security guard watching over bicycle racks or um some hybrid system that you might have already seen somewhere else.

Peter Ladner: 3:34

Okay, we'll get into that, but I want to cut to the chase here. Do they work? And if they work, what are they supposed to do? I I would assume that they're supposed to encourage someone to bring a bike who would otherwise not bring a bike. Is that actually the case?

Sam Holland: 3:49

It's very hard to measure like specific drivers of mode shift, but in my experience, uh bike valets are really successful in driving particularly two kinds of riders. So that's um young families and older folks with e-bikes. Um so looking at, for example, uh Victoria, where we have uh a bike valet that has now been pretty much year-round uh for a couple years now. Where is it? Um it's right in the downtown core, so it's hosted at Victoria City Hall.

Peter Ladner: 4:19

Um, so it's just a general parking parking area for anybody who shows up.

Sam Holland: 4:23

It's not like tied to an event or a no, it's uh it's permanent, uh, it's year-round. Um and I think that like when we're talking about driving mode shift over like at a city level, that's the kind of changes and and programs we need to be thinking about. Something that's reliable, uh, that can be used for the daily driver, daily commute. Um and that's kind of more distinct from looking at mode shift at an event level where you're dealing with like parking issues uh for you know festivals or markets. Um and yeah, I've I've worked that valet, uh, and we look at our feedback and and our metrics, we've seen steadily increasing usage year over year, even in the winter time where you know people are like, oh, you wouldn't cycle in the winter. I mean, we're blessed in Victoria that our weather is pretty good most of the time in the winter. Um but and there is some correlation between you know weather and people cycling, but there's lots of people cycling in the winter too. And the thing is that over the years we've seen more and more e-bikes. Um and generally when we're talking about um bicycle parking, people are way more insecure about parking. They're really expensive e-bikes uh downtown. Like we're looking at e-bikes that cost the same as a car, even if it's a cheap car. Um and e-bikes are driving this huge shift to bicycling, especially for older riders and families, because they uh they can get you up hills that you might not be able to do. Uh, and they can get you into town much faster than the average rider uh pedaling by themselves.

Peter Ladner: 6:02

So is that why you say the usage has been growing because of families and e-bikes? Are these families with e-bikes as well as seniors with e-bikes? So it's basically about e-bikes.

Sam Holland: 6:14

Um we've seen like a big increase in the share of e-bikes. Um it is it is really about 50-50 in terms of um of who is using the service at event, both events and at the permanent installation. Um but the the riders who I think most benefit from the uh from the service are the ones that have those uh those e-bikes and cargo bikes, uh, not least for families, because families have not just e-bikes, they have so much stuff they need to bring. So if you've ever seen like you know, the cycling, cycling mom, cycling dad with their uh their cargo bikes, they're usually loaded up. Uh all the stuff for the kids, right? You have you know whatever activities you have, you might have their sheet music, if they're a musician, or a ball if they're a you know, and they're cleats if they're going to play soccer. And that that stuff is traditionally what you know uh you might carry in your minivan, right? Uh and I like the term you hear now and Victoria. I don't know if it's elsewhere in in BC, but the millennial minivan. Okay. Good one. And that's that's what uh we that's what we see uh for a lot of these, you know, they're sometimes called bucket bikes, where's the big buckets in the front, you have the kids riding, you have the stuff. Uh and those those uh families, even if they don't make a huge, like an enormous share of all of the bikes that are coming in, I think they benefit some of the most from these services.

Peter Ladner: 7:38

So you're offering security not just for the bike, but all the gear that's in it. They don't have to have that all locked up too. I I went to a sporting event at BC Place and uh used the bike valet, and it was a rainy day. So I had all my my wet weather gear, but you're not allowed to carry a bag into the stadium. So I was very happy I could just leave that at the bike valet and not worry about it. But tell me, people presumably are motivated by a fear of their bike getting stolen. Do you know anything about is that a real fear or just an imagined fear? Are there a lot of e-bikes being stolen in downtown Victoria without that aren't in the bike valet compound?

Sam Holland: 8:16

Well, we have seen a decline in overall bike theft uh since the opening of that bike valet downtown in Victoria. Um and yes, e-bikes do get stolen. Um the batteries, especially, off get stolen off them. So people will steal them, and then you'll just see the frame lying by the side of the road with the more expensive parts ripped off of them. Um and so there's there's other things you can do with a bike valet. For example, bike registration systems like Project 529 make an excellent pairing with bike ballet.

Peter Ladner: 8:44

Um just tell us for a second, Project 529. I know that's available in Victoria and Vancouver. Is it available throughout the province?

Sam Holland: 8:51

I think they did just get funding to offer that throughout uh with police departments across the whole province. Um, so yes, uh, I believe while it might not be in your municipality right now, um, you can definitely register it. Uh the question is whether your local police departments are already um using it. So that's something to check on the 529 website. Let's just or with your local police department.

Peter Ladner: 9:14

Just do a little sidetrack on project 529. When you register your bike, what do you get? How is it how does it protect your bike?

Sam Holland: 9:22

So it's the bike registry that uh police departments use to check um like if a bike is stolen uh or who the owner of a bike. So there's a couple components to that. One is the registration. So you basically take a picture of your bike, you take uh the identifying information like uh serial number, any special things about the bike, like its color, its make, um, maybe what year it is, depending on how much information you have on your bike. And you put this into their database using their app, it's pretty quick. Um doesn't take more than a couple minutes. And then uh when if your bike is stolen, you can report it stolen on the app. So uh or online. And so when police are looking around, if they see a bike they think is stolen, they'll do a check on uh there's there's stickers you can put on the bike that have a really clear identifying number, or they can check the serial number against that database to see if that bike or something they can search by description to um just just to really try and track that bike down.

Peter Ladner: 10:23

So it gives you a really much higher chance of getting your bike back if it's stolen, but it's it's not and maybe a sh a smart thief would see the sticker and go, I better not steal this bike because the police will find me. So let's talk about um you're administering some grants for the BC Cycling Coalition that were uh the Ministry of Transportation Information and Infrastructure set up. And you've received applications from all over the province, so you've got a pretty good view of who's doing bike valets, who is doing bike valets, what organizations are doing them around the province.

Sam Holland: 10:57

So I can't speak too much about applications because we haven't uh announced uh any of that information. But in terms of who is currently doing bike valets, um it's actually a very diverse uh set of people. So in Victoria, for example, we have Capital Bike, um, which is like the local cycling group. We have uh more coalition like cycling coalitions across the province, so member organizations of the BC Cycling Coalition, um, including uh like the Comox Valley Cycling Coalition up Island, uh River City Cycles in Campbell River. Um we even see private companies like uh I think Whistler Bike Valley uh does a contract with the City of Whistler, uh the resort municipality of Whistler, uh to be uh pedantic about it. Um there's there's some larger players like the nonprofit Best, that's better environmentally sound transportation, I think, in Vancouver. Uh and then you start to see like really smaller players and municipalities. Um cycling coalitions, municipalities, a few private companies, and then maybe pop up things like their own, like nonprofits that do festivals, they might have their own bicycle valet solution. Um, like I think even in Victoria, our local jazz festival has like their bike parking solution. It's uh I think it's just raffle tickets that they, you know, they'll put it on your bike, and uh it's kind of like you check your bike in, you check your bike out. It's not the same, like it's uh not a traditional bike valet as I described at the beginning, but you have that full range across BC of services from individual small nonprofits to even municipalities offering these services. In terms of event bicycle parking, which is I think where the the bicycle valet really shines, um, even in long term, like if you say, like, let's throw money at this bicycle parking problem, what can we do? Um, I don't actually see a better long-term solution for events than bicycle valet. And that's because you have events in places that don't it doesn't necessarily make sense to put in like a multi-million dollar bike parking solution. You have one or two days where you have huge demand and huge you know, huge need. And bicycle valets fill that niche of secure bike parking over a period of time, uh like a shorter period of time, uh, and then it doesn't require like huge investment.

Peter Ladner: 13:31

Um much investment does it require to do a reasonable size bike valet? Do you have a like a working number? Is it gonna be at least whatever it is?

Sam Holland: 13:42

Um it really depends on what kind of group you're working with, uh and what part of the province, because labor costs vary quite a lot. If you're doing a volunteer-run service, like quite a few markets do, uh, with the local cycling coalitions, your costs are gonna be really low. Like um, even your upfront costs, racks are somewhere in between you know$100 and$500 each, depending on how you get them, what the shipping is, where you get them.

Peter Ladner: 14:07

How many bikes would that would that park?

Sam Holland: 14:09

About 10. 500 bucks. About 10 uh bikes. Um 500 is much very much on the high end, but and and you have to remember that about half the bikes we're parking don't require those racks because they're e-bikes and they stand themselves up. So if you're thinking each rack, you know, for each rack, you're actually buying about double that capacity essentially. Um you get some fencing, you can rent that, or the event provides it. Uh, because most most large events already have big fencing orders, so they can just throw a couple fences on that. Um and then you're looking at just things like tents and chairs and tables that you can usually borrow or you already have lying around. So uh like tag systems, if you just really need to get something started, you can use raffle tickets, and those those are really cheap. Um so like just getting started at the most basic level, very low barrier to entry. Um, and in fact, you might not need to buy racks because triathlons already are gonna have some if you have a triathlon or a uh like bicycle races in your city, they're going to have the kinds of racks you can use for bike valet. Uh and in fact, uh we collaborate with the uh the Tor de Vic in Victoria um to provide larger numbers of racks when we don't have the the number that we want uh or need for an event. How many how many people do you need? Can you do it with two people? Definitely. Um so you should generally have at at least two people, like two people is the minimum so that someone can take a break, but someone's guarding the bikes. Um and then the the any increased numbers is really about dealing with large numbers of people coming all at once. So if you're tidy and orderly in how you put the bikes away, like it's all in sequential order, so you can find them really quickly based on the number or the color, however your system works. There's you can look at the bicycle valet toolkit uh on the BC website, uh BC Cycling website to see more about that. Um but uh yeah, having those having those staff members uh or volunteers just allows you to process huge like large numbers of people. So, for example, at the um South Island Pow Wow, there was a Truth and Real Reconciliation ride um on like the on Truth and Reconciliation Day in 2023. Um I was working that event, and I think we handled something like 200 riders arriving in the space of about 20 minutes. I mean, people had to people had to wait a little bit of time, and we had about 10, 15 people running back and forth with bikes. Um, but as long as you have a good system, you can scale it up really effectively to handle pretty much any number of people. That day we parked over 600 bicycles uh in a pretty short time frame. It was there was not many opportunities to sit down that day. Um and then the I would say the previous month at we have a pretty big music festival. We parked over 2,000 bikes across two weekends. Uh, and that was that was really kind of inspiring to see because that music festival was able to run with basically no parking. Um so everyone came by active transportation or they came by bus uh or maybe taxi.

Peter Ladner: 17:22

Do you think that having a bike valet will attract some people to an event who would otherwise not come?

Sam Holland: 17:29

Definitely. And I think that applies to downtowns as well. So uh we've actually I had a really nice conversation last year with um a couple of uh a night a very nice older couple who said, you know, we live out in Saanich, that's a municipality just outside Victoria, um, not very far. Um, you know, we used to shop in Saanich, but now that the bike valet is downtown, we don't really feel comfortable like leaving and locking our bikes up in Saanich relative to that. So we just come down here for brunch now, every Saturday, every Sunday, instead of uh instead of going out to eat in Saanich, um, because we just feel so much safer. So those kinds of those kinds of small changes um definitely add up. And in fact, in the downtown core, you see a lot of people coming back to shopping.

Peter Ladner: 18:16

Uh putting the lie to that myth that you can't shop with a bicycle. But we're that's a whole other podcast, too. So in your in your view, looking at the growth of these things and all the different kinds, um where would you like to see what's your dream for bike valets? You know, one at every event or every downtown has one, or every public library has one, or I don't know what schools.

Sam Holland: 18:43

Really, my dream for this is that when we're talking about parking, that we talk about bicycle parking as a serious component. Active transportation parking, really, because bike valets park scooters, they park skateboards, uh, they park strollers, which are all part of the mobility um equation and solution. Um I I really think that whenever we consider parking, we consider bike we should consider bike, you know, bike valet, attended bicycle parking, good bike racks, they should all be part of that solution that um and and every problem will have its own solution. Uh there's no one size fits all for bike parking. Uh, and that's that's one of the reasons that I'm trying to develop these materials is to provide more context on that. I I really don't feel that planners actually have a very good toolkit um for those kinds of bicycle parking solutions, especially in BC.

Peter Ladner: 19:43

So other than planners knowing how to do them better and uh some policies where people planning events in cities and infrastructure always think about bike parking. What would it take to roll out more of these? Is it just a matter of money?

Sam Holland: 20:00

Um it's a matter of money and a matter of interest. And bike valets work really well in combination with infrastructure because the the I mean, always that the first thing that's gonna stop people from riding is not feeling safe on the road. And then after that, they need to feel safe off the road, right? They need to feel safe that their bike is secure, that their stuff is secure. Um, so I think like it's kind of the second step. Um safety first on the roads, then safety second, or safety first after, uh, if that makes sense. And perfect sense. Uh I think the there's a couple a couple things there, because I mentioned that bicycle valley is part of a continuum of bicycle parking solutions. Uh one of the things that I really think we should be talking about is that municipalities should include um bike parking as part of event permitting. So one of the things when big events, they already do have to consider parking. Um, for example, if you want to shut down roads or have a big event in a park in pretty much any municipality in BC, they need to consider the effect on the surrounding neighborhoods and roads. Uh so they need to have traffic plans, they need to have parking plans for cars and deal with the disruption that entails. But most municipalities don't require any kind of serious look into how to get there by active transportation. Uh, and I think that's what we really need to be talking about here is if you're going to be, especially in urban areas or areas close to bicycling infrastructure, cycling infrastructure, um, you should be required to consider what kinds of services you should be offering uh so that it's a safe and inviting place for people to arrive in a sustainable and healthy way.

Peter Ladner: 21:47

Wonderful. I love that. So if if you if I were a potential sponsor, do these bike valets themselves get sponsored? And is that a value for some, I don't know, corporation or group that wants to sponsor them and make them more available?

Sam Holland: 22:04

I mean, especially the fixed location ones, yes. Um, so I think uh the downtown Vancouver one, for example, is sponsored, and Translink in uh in Vancouver sponsors quite a few bike valets, uh, although their name isn't always on the bike valet, like they're a big supporter of uh better environmentally sound transportation, and that's one of the reasons they can have bike valets in so many places and at so many Translink stations. Um if you're looking at uh event valets, uh that's really gonna come down to the event too. Um I think that having a branded service that's like, you know, this is the River City Cycling Club, or you know, the this this is a bike valet with its own brand, that's gonna really help with people finding the service. So if you have um so it if you're going to sponsor your service, you should make sure that it's very clear year to year that it's the same thing. Um because people you'll you'll have have to be able to build that trust over the over that time with your uh your clients, the people coming to you with their bike. Uh because it's a it's a big trust thing. Um you're giving someone your little baby that you got uh you got there, um and it's your way back home as well.

Peter Ladner: 23:31

So do you have to pay do they have to be free or do people are people willing to pay for them? And if so, how much?

Sam Holland: 23:38

Uh the most, like the best practice um that I have seen uh and that I have uh that that is pretty standard across industry is that they are free to whoever's bringing their bike. As soon as you introduce a cost, um there's there's actually quite a few issues with that. One, you then have to have infrastructure on site so that people can pay, um which is uh not always the easiest, especially in areas that have like very poor cell reception, which is quite a lot of VC. Um you then also have that delay, so you're much less efficient. Um you have to train staff on how to use that, uh, which if you're doing a volunteer service, uh that adds like a whole nother level of complexity. Um and also people are just gonna be less likely to use it as soon as they have to pay. Like uh that's that's pretty standard. I I've read about, for example, even transit. You know, the moment you make transit free, there's just like something clicks in someone's head, and it's just a way we perceive cost. Uh as soon as you add a charge, it seems way way more expensive, uh, which is one of the reasons, for example, we uh we totally underprice uh the cost of driving uh when you drive a car. Uh it's way it's gonna be way more expensive than you think it is. But we can't you can charge events and you can charge uh provide like uh municipalities to offer those services, and that is a sustainable costing model.

Peter Ladner: 25:07

I I know that the Better Environmentally Sound Transportation has specialized in this, and they have on their website, I'm sure, some information about how to do a great bike valet or how they could do it for you. Uh thinking of the future, if you think about parking garages, uh they used to always have somebody at an attendant taking your money and checking you in and out. Now it's all automated. Is there an automated future for bike valets? Surveillance cameras or RFID chips or I don't know, automatic payment devices or check-in devices? Or is that too complicated?

Sam Holland: 25:42

There's definitely all kinds of solutions for, you know, we we talked about train stations as being that kind of perfect spot for like large-scale investment in permanent bicycling infrastructure. I don't see an automated solution for events uh that would be secure. Uh it's just like the the bike valet model is just kind of perfect for that solution or that problem, I should say. It's a perfect solution to the problem. Um in terms of like downtown bike parking, um, yeah, you have those solutions in like the UK or the Netherlands or Japan where you see these big um cycling garages, or in Japan you actually see the like the automated say this whisk your bike up into a thing. Um there's a couple challenges to that, and one of them is of course e-bikes. It's a lot easier to store a whole bunch of autom like automated storage with um with just kind of standard road bikes, is much simpler than dealing with people's cargo bikes and bucket bikes. Um But having and surveillance cameras are generally less effective than having someone there. I mean, my friend, for example, he got his bike stolen at my university, where we have, I think, pretty much the thing you're talking about, which is uh it's secure bike bicycle storage with uh cameras out the wazoo and an automated door. Um although they did have to take the automation off because the birds kept kept activating the automated door. Uh so in theory, an automated door, yeah. Uh but yeah, he got his bike stolen right out of that, which is like sort of the I don't want to say gold standard, but it's kind of the best we can expect uh for for locking your bike up, which is you know a secure space, lots of cameras. In theory, there's lots of foot traffic. Still got his bike stolen. Um did he get it back? He did not get it back. Uh he he also he didn't have it registered with Project 529, so he might have if he had it registered in registry. But um for so for those kinds of bike um like large infrastructure scale solutions, I think there's a lot of things that we could be looking at. Um, but I'm not sure that cameras and heavier locks are necessarily the solution for that.

Peter Ladner: 28:00

Sam, are there liability issues with organizations setting these up?

Sam Holland: 28:05

I mean, there's there's liability issues with doing anything uh ever. But uh in terms of providing bicycle valet services, it's definitely advisable that your organization should have good liability insurance, um, and that that insurance covers the places that you're doing the bike valet. Um all in all, I mean the the liability is fairly minimal as a service service. Like uh if you think of the kinds of things that, especially like cycling groups do, with group rides um and all that type of stuff, there's some pretty high-risk activities just from a liability perspective, in terms of you know, taking people out in your traffic. And um when you're talking about the liability of a bike valet, like the the number one there was two main things, right? Bike theft and like e-bikes exploding and catching on fire. Uh, neither of which I have ever had to deal with as an issue. In fact, uh we sort of had negative bicycle theft because we recovered a couple stolen bikes. Um fantastic. But in in terms of liability from theft, well, bike valet is much safer than the alternative. So if you're uh if you're an event organizer uh and you're thinking about providing services for cyclists in general, um you're going to bear some of that liability risk. So why not go with the best solution that's going to provide the least risk? Uh in terms of the bike valet model, um, in terms of innovations we can see there, I think one of the biggest issues right now is actually data. Um so in in BC actually has quite poor data collection on things like bicycle parking. Um, most of the efforts that have been done, to my knowledge, have been kind of volunteer driven at the cycling coalition level, often, like local advocacy level, or sometimes municipal level. So the bike valets are actually a great uh way to get data, uh, really great.

Peter Ladner: 30:00

What kind of data?

Sam Holland: 30:01

Well, for example, in the Victoria we uh bike valet, we've developed a uh system called Tag Tracker. One of our volunteers actually made it, which allows us to check the type of bike and when it comes in and out every day. So we have extremely granular data as to um the types of trips that are being made, when they're being made, like what the weather is that day. Um that kind of data I think would be awesome to have at a provincial-wide level. Um for this, at least the fixed location of LA's, because if you combine them with the cycling counts each day, uh and you look at wider surveys like the census data, you can get a really much better picture of mode shift. Um they're also a really good place for outreach for local cycling groups or just interfacing with normal cyclists. Because with any outreach, um, especially for cities, well actually and outreach for anyone, the you always have the problem of the most engaged people are the ones that are going to engage the most. And those those opinions don't necessarily or or needs they don't necessarily reflect the needs and opinions of the public as a lot at large. Whereas with bike bike valets, you have like this really nice cross-section of everyone who's riding a bike or a scooter or uh got a couple unicycles. Um and that that kind of cross-section and also you like of course it's going to encompass people who don't normally have the time or headspace to engage with um with outreach. So, you know, a classic example is you know, young families, I think, are really underrepresented uh in most cycling outreach because if you if you have like kids and both parents are working, you're busy. Um so that's that's the kind of data as well that we should be looking to collect. And if we had that data, what difference would it make? I mean, I'm a big fan of data for data's sake, but um the that kind of mode shift information, I think, drives funding. Um there was a great comment from I think it was a Camloop city counselor that said, look, I think we spend I mean I'm gonna I think it was a cast in that article, and the quote was something like, we spend sixteen thousand dollars per car parking space um in Camloops. Why are those trips more valuable than bike trips? Shouldn't we be putting a similar amount of funding to all kinds of parking and trips downtown? And that's the kind of thinking that that data enables. Um if you can concretely say this investment has produced you know these this many trips, um, this type of trips, it's benefiting all these different kinds of people, it's way more easy, it's way easier to make a case for funding these kinds of services, funding better infrastructure, um, funding programs that build cities that are more sustainable, that are healthier, uh, and that are more active.

Peter Ladner: 33:09

So I've run out of questions, Sam. Are is there anything you think the world needs to know about bike valets that that we haven't covered?

Sam Holland: 33:18

Oh yes, you mentioned um you did mention looking uh for materials on how to run and run your own bike valet and set it up. Um as throughout the summer, I will be adding to the BC Cycling a coalition bike valet toolkit. And I'm hoping that's gonna be like the place you can go to get that information. Um a lot of the like a couple of I should I shouldn't say a lot, a couple of the groups in BC and in the United States have published small guides that are often older, out of date. Um but I'm just kind of bringing those all together to a place where we can you can just go and see all the resources that are available and um some up-to-date resources, especially. Um so I advise I advise people to go to the BC Cycling Coalition website and check that out.

Peter Ladner: 34:05

Thanks so much, Sam. I hope people do that, and uh I hope that's helpful in more bike valleys being being brought into existence. And I would expect as the the growth in e-bikes and uh cargo bikes increases, that these will become more necessary and popular. And I hope you're involved in making that happen. Thank you. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. It was great to be here. Thanks, Peter. Thanks for listening to Bike Since and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling at BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richards Buell Sutton, ICBC, Moto, and the Bicycle Pro. Visit us at BCcycling.ca

How Powell River pioneered a bike-friendly intersection design that won't completely make sense until the full bike network is built out.

Powell River Sustainability Planner Anastasia Lukyanova talks about the challenges of completing cycling infrastructure in stages. 

And the pending construction of an off-road multi-use path from the community centre to the high school. 

And how some drivers just don't get safe streets around schools.

Release date: April 10, 2024

The City of Penticton gained infamy when its City Council tried to ban discussion of bike lanes until 2026.

A Penticton councillor's political about-face almost stopped bike lanes, but a clever amendment and determined advocates kept them going.

Matt Hopkins, Urban Cycling Director for the Penticton and Area Cycling Association, tells us how four friends and their farmers' market bike valet kick-started cycling improvements in Penticton.

And now the 6.5 km lake-to-lake route is soon to be completed.

Release date: March 05, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to BikeSense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today I'm talking with Matt Hopkins, who's the Urban Cycling Director for the Penticton and Area Cycling Association. And we called Matt because we read somewhere that Penticton Council had passed a motion to ban discussion even of separated bike lanes until 2026. That got my attention. But before we get to that, I'd just like to start on a slightly higher note and uh say, welcome, Matt, and uh glad to have you with us. Thanks for having me, Peter. Thanks for reaching out to me. I appreciate it. And just to say that I've been to Penticton. I've ridden in the Grand Fondo several times. It's a wonderful town for riding in. And of course, it's the home of the Iron Man Canada. Is it still happening? I know it was off and on, and is it back on again?

Matt Hopkins: 1:20

It is. Yeah, it it is. It's back in Pentikton. I mean, we've had issues with weather and smoke and things, but and um it did get canceled this past year, if I'm not mistaken, due to wildfires and in the area. But it is back in uh a matter of speaking, and they intend on having it in future years here in Penticton, absolutely, and uh and a long history of a bit as well.

Peter Ladner: 1:42

Do you know the date that it will be on this year?

Matt Hopkins: 1:46

You know, I don't have it offhand. It's usually the very last weekend in August. Um, so it's it's right around the end of the summer, is is typically when it happens.

Peter Ladner: 1:57

And that would involve the the Iron Man is 180k ride. Is that is that what it is?

Matt Hopkins: 2:04

That's right. Yes, there's uh there's a full marathon of running, and they're in the water in Okanagan Lake for quite a while. I don't know, that might be a couple kilometers.

Peter Ladner: 2:14

Well, I also wanted to just say that the city of Pentikton, if you go onto their website, is very proud of their cycling infrastructure. And uh here's a quote: whether you're looking for some intense training or leisurely touring, Pentikton can offer you the ride of your life. And so I was getting a little bit of cognitive dissonance when I was reading this and thinking about your council's work. But tell me the work that you've done with the cycling association and some of the successes that you've had first.

Matt Hopkins: 2:47

Sure. So I um a little bit of my history here is I moved to Penticton with my wife um from Vancouver. We moved here around the end of 2014. And uh living in Vancouver, I could go into the history, but I got really used to riding my bike in Vancouver. I'd ride my bike to work over the Burard Street Bridge, get to work. My my wife used to ride from 7th in Cyprus to St. Paul's Hospital every day. So we I was used to riding a bike for a lot of different things in Vancouver. And moving here in sort of the start of 2015, it was very quickly I came here without a car, and just the idea of getting from where I was staying to the grocery store was crazy. I mean, it was just I was just not used to riding a bike in those types of conditions. So, you know, how that sort of manifests itself, I didn't have a history in cycling advocacy, but when I started here and started asking questions, I mean, you live in a small enough community that I can you can get in touch with the mayor. I mean, I remember sending an email to the mayor, a gentleman by the name of Andrew Jacobite at the time, and kind of trying to figure out what is going on with the cycling infrastructure here and why isn't there any? And um, so so that led me to um basically, you know, towards I think the end of start of 2018, a few of my friends got in a room and we kind of tried to figure out what we can do to move the idea of cycling infrastructure forward in Pentick. And a group of four people, we really didn't have any influence. I mean, we had no one on council, we didn't, we were just four people that didn't have a lot of influence on public policy. And one thing that we came to is we thought, why don't we start a bike valet at our farmers market? I mean, you know, that was another thing that I was used to in Vancouver. So essentially, four of us started uh a bike valet at the farmers market here every Saturday and start of 2018, and that's sort of where where the advocacy started and sort of where the snowball started to happen, sort of packed that snowball and started pushing it down the hill, I guess was the the turning point.

Peter Ladner: 4:50

Well, interesting you mentioned that because I I'm gonna put a plug in for the BC Cycling Coalition. We're about to uh administer a province-wide bike valet award grant, a granting um giving money to community organizations that put these bike valets together on the understanding that bike valets can trigger people to take a bike when they otherwise would have taken a car. Was that your experience at your bike valet?

Matt Hopkins: 5:18

Oh, 100%, 100%. I mean, we went, you know, we started and we would go to this far. I'd go to the farmer's market. I mean, it's very popular for any of the listeners who've been to Pentecostin. And um, you know, we'd see seven, eight, nine, ten bikes, and we just came with a few racks and a couple of people. And, you know, one week we had 10, the next week we had 20. You know, by the middle of the summer, we're parking 100 bikes a week. So it was such a simple, powerful thing that a few people could do without the influence of of um of being able to influence street design and things, that the uh the example of the bike valet was such a powerful thing in terms of um, I know we're gonna probably speak more about our Lake to Lake bike route, but it was really the example for us of build it and they will come. And you know, before that time, people would say to me, Why would why would we build a bike lane or why would we build bike facilities? Nobody rides a bike. And so it it really, I guess it got it did a few things. It showed that people wanted to use their bicycle for transportation because once we sat there and we had myself and a friend of mine sitting there every week watching people's bikes, we saw the amount of people coming down on bikes flourish. Um, but it also it also galvanized support for the idea of moving forward or the the political support for some all ages and abilities facilities. And it got together people um that had that interest. And, you know, I think also too, one thing that really stuck with me that first year is how many people not only told me about um their experiences of getting uh their bike stolen, but getting hit on their bike or you know, being a victim in a crash or someone not seeing them on their bike. And so that really stuck with me as something that was so powerful because I've that's never happened to me, but I can appreciate getting hit on your bicycle and what that feels like and the and the the psyche to want to get out on your bike again, so and the barriers that that brings for folks. So I think those were some of the early experiences that really stuck with me from our bike valet.

Peter Ladner: 7:33

So you mentioned the lake to lake route. Uh tell us about that. Is that something that this particular group worked on? Uh, did it get picked up by your local council at some point?

Matt Hopkins: 7:43

That's exactly right. So, what happened, Peter, is after our year, we did uh 2018, we did the uh bike valet at the farmers market. I think we operated it around 20 times, we probably parked a thousand bikes. And so the start of, you know, we've been talking with folks at the city. Like I said, I sent an email to the mayor the years previous, had started discussions with uh city staff, uh politicians about our intentions. And one thing that we we found out is this is before my time in Pentikton, but Penticton basically passed a bike plan in 2012. Uh basically an idea of a bunch of connected routes that they would lay out over the city map. And, you know, when they tried to start implementing these things, there was a lot of pushback, there wasn't any political support, there wasn't anyone uh like a cycling advocacy group really pushing this forward. So, you know, towards the end of 2018, we pitched a council and said, hey, look at the success of this bike valet. You should be starting this all ages and abilities route as this was part of the 2012 bike plan. We think there should be a lake-to-lake route that goes through the middle of Penticton, that's linear, uh, and that supports um, you know, all ages and abilities and to form sort of a spine of a network. So, you know, we asked for that, them studying that again, and also just additional bike racks all around Pentikton because you know, we found so many people talking to us about their experiences parking bikes in Pentikton and getting bikes stolen. So even just simple rocks that needed to be installed all over Pentikton. So start of 19, that was sort of when the lake to lake got back on the table here in Pentikton from a political standpoint. And um, it was from uh a pitch that we made at a committee the whole meeting, end of 2018, start of 2019.

Peter Ladner: 9:40

For those people who are not familiar with the geography, can you just describe from what lake to what lake and how far is that? And it goes through right through the center of Pentikton?

Matt Hopkins: 9:49

So Penticton is between two lakes. The one end, the north end of Penticton is Okanagan Lake, the south end of Pentikton is Skahaw Lake, and it's a really pretty much a flat bike ride between the two lakes. It's probably about six kilometers. It might be a little bit less, is the Crowflies, six, six and a half, somewhere in that range. So it's really an area that many, many people would be able to get from one end of town to the other on a bicycle. Um, but the engineering of the roadways is just such that it's not comfortable for, you know, what does Gil Pen Penelosa say? Like, unless you're 30 and athletic. Like that was the only types of people that would be happy riding a bike from one end of town to the other. And and we'd had we'd had some, I don't know if I call it infrastructure, but we had we did have a bike lane that went from one end of town to the other through a street called Government Street that's a a busy arterial um with paint and it was some dedicated space, but no protection. And it was really a circuitous route, like it went around a lot of the main amenities of Pentikton. It was uh almost like a little bit like a ring road. So what we were really focused on is something that is straight, that gets you through the middle of Penticton and connects with amenities, grocery stores, malls, the doctor's office, things like that.

Peter Ladner: 11:12

Terrific. Well, keep an eye out for those bike valet grants that we'll be administering over the next year. And uh it sounds like you're a prime candidate for getting one, having a proven record of it.

Matt Hopkins: 11:24

You know, I appreciate that, Peter, but I should tell you is that after five years, we've passed our our bike valet off to the city, and the city is going to fund it and run it more often. So basically, what happened is we got I got to the end of last year, and I'd done it for five years. We had a couple of staff. We wanted to make the thing bigger. Like it, I want it to be at our Pentick and V's hockey games, I want it at our stadium for any of the concerts, I want it at Peach Fest every night. Uh, the issue for us was funding, and it's funny as you say. And I looked at, of course, I just copy everything that I learned when I lived in Vancouver, but I looked at the folks in Vancouver that started, and they gave me this beautiful um guidebook when I started, even just down to things like where to buy bike racks. It was amazing. But anyway, I know that their business model was obviously they go to BC Place or something, and BC Place pays them because it's$40 to park and people ride a bike. Well, my view is that in Penticton, we couldn't offer uh as a business, no one would pay us enough to pay our staff because the city floods the market with parking everywhere. Like there's just too much parking, it's too cheap. Um, and so it there isn't that intrinsic value. So basically, I said to the city is that, hey, you guys are spending so much money on all these parking lots, you spend nothing on bike parking. Like, why don't you take this bike valet? I'll give you all our supplies and offer it more. And so it was shocking, but they did. So, what they're gonna do is they're gonna run it with their environmental sustainability folks. So they have like a little environmental sustainability outreach group, um, usually like summer co-op students. And so they're gonna take our bike valet to all their events. So they're gonna run all the events at our what that we did at the farmers market, and they're gonna take it to Peach Fest, and they're gonna take it to other, many of the other festivals and things here in Penticton this coming year. So, you know, you talk about like things to be excited about. Like the idea that I sat there in the city of Pentikton meeting with the general manager of infrastructure, and I pitched this, and she said, Yeah, we'll do that. That's a great idea. I it was shocking, but it happened, and here we are. So um I I mean I could talk about Bike Valet for a year straight and probably not take a breath, but that's it's exciting. I mean, you know, to see to see this thing grow and uh and um yeah, it's amazing. So that's where we're at with Bike Valet.

Peter Ladner: 14:01

So let's fast forward to today. You had the plan, um, it's that you you had a route, and how how much is built out now? Where does it stand now?

Matt Hopkins: 14:13

Yeah, so so this was so they probably went through a year and a half of um engagement, and the city council of the day, this was towards the end of 2020, I believe, made it made a decision and they approved the Lake to Lake route. Now, the devil is in the details, and so what happened with the route is for funding reasons, they decided not to build it all at one time. They decided to have it in four phases. Um, and the really the main reason the the council of the day decided that was to essentially make the route building as inexpensive as possible, and they were able to apply for grants, and because the the route essentially was almost and still is in a in a four-year period, always almost in a shovel ready or construction phase, they were going to be constantly able to apply for grants. So answer your question, they started the route building down at the north end of Pentikton on Okanagan Lake and through the downtown. They've gone all the way uh north through the downtown of Pentikton uh and basically to a street called Kinney Avenue. So I would say it's two-thirds done. Um, and the last section is set to be complete this year in 2024. So, you know, it's taken, it's unbelievable, kind of unfortunately, you know, looking at how long some of these things take. And I go back to those times of, you know, sitting there at this bike valet in 2018 six years ago, and and we are going to get that project finished, but it's certainly taken some time.

Peter Ladner: 15:48

I will refrain from commenting on the fact that no road project has ever been built in sections where one part of the road is there and then we wait for a while and then build the next section. But leave that aside. Now we get to the point where this uh uh some one of your counselors uh apparently I'm gonna get you to get this right, but counselor Boltby, I'm gonna name her, call her out. She said, let's not spend the money. We've got and I mean there are legitimate tax issues in every municipality. I've been a city councilor, I know what that's about, but she felt that uh we should save some money, and this would be the way to save it. And I just want to quote something that she was quoted as saying in the newspaper the overwhelming sentiment is that bike lanes have not been good for our community, and there is no appetite to see them expanded at this time. So what impact did her decision have or her motion have, and is that correct?

Matt Hopkins: 16:52

Well, I mean I guess luckily for us, number one, her motion failed. Um it failed four to four or I guess four votes to three. And what was the motion exactly? The the mo the her motion was to um basically not finish the bike route. So again, I go back to what I was saying earlier about this bike route is a vision of a lake-to-lake route. Okay, it was approved. Then the council went and said, yeah, we approve it, but we're gonna build it in in sections, kind of like you referenced before. So before Councillor Boltby was in power, they built three out of four sections of this bike route. And as you said, it's it's a vision of an entire route. So uh one of the things that um that frustrated me as an advocate, I think, and part of her motion, if you if you look at what she was saying in the paper in that time, is not only, I mean, I can speak to the the interest of this cycling facility as a whole, but her even her idea of at that time she was talking about wanting numbers on how many people are using it, and and she's was talking about, you know, before we finish this thing, we should really look and see how many people are actually using it. And of course, uh, someone like me, that drives me absolutely nuts because we never had a vision of a route that is partly completed, you know, and and so I I think um to me it was in bad faith.

Peter Ladner: 18:20

I am reminded of the the old saying that uh why should we build a bridge across that lake? There's nobody swimming showing that they needed to get across, so we obviously don't need a bridge.

Matt Hopkins: 18:30

Yeah, that's right. So, so you know, and and and I think so that was bothersome to us. And you know, it I guess it started something, and and I I don't doubt that as a politician, um, you know, I'm not a politician, so I don't maybe understand it as well, but there's certainly people in the community, there's no doubt, that don't want this facility, don't like it, and it's a hot button issue, and it has been, unfortunately. So if you're a politician, it can be good for you politically to take a side on an issue like this for political reasons. It helps uh Councillor Boltby. I mean, she's got a lot of press out of it. I mean, you and we're talking to you right now, Peter, from Vancouver. So, you know, it it it that's been challenging. I I think the the last thing I would I would say about the there's no appetite for the route. I I think to me that's farcical. Um, you know, and now we have route data, even from even from like essentially, like I said, it's a two-thirds finished bike route. It's a it's a it's a house being built with just a foundation, and we're already seeing some nice usage of our route. And and I talked to uh CBC about this a couple months ago, but I mean, at you know, at at the at the corner of Eckert and Martin Street, which is kind of at the end of tail end of our downtown, we've had a 99,000 people that went through through the bike route in 2023, and some of the other counters, you know, we've had 60,000, 70,000 people go through. So I think that's nice that we're finally starting to see some of that on the on the usage side. Um that that's been helpful. I I think the other thing too, and the other thing too that that I'll gonna touch on that I don't think the council realizes and that is important to me. And you know, when I started doing cycling advocacy and I was riding my bike across the Burard Bridge, I was someone who was living in Vancouver, I was in my 20s, I wasn't making a lot of money, I certainly didn't own a car. There was it was really important for me to use a bicycle because I could save$110 on my transit pass. And so, you know, I look in Pentikton, and obviously I'm a little bit older now and doing a little better personally, but I still remember those times. And I think you look in Pentikton and you go, the median household income here is$17,000,$18,000 below the provincial average, and the rents are extremely high and housing costs are high. It's a cost of living issue that unfortunately is not being addressed. And I think it perhaps that comes from a place of privilege of folks that have never had to struggle or have always been able to afford owning a car, but it's really, really expensive. And and so that's something that I think about constantly.

Peter Ladner: 21:25

Well, in fairness to Councillor Bolpey, uh uh again, having been a politician, if there are people in the community who feel that way, it's fair fair for her to be representing them. They should be represented on council. But the question is whether the reasons for decisions are valid or just uh a way to foment anger and division. And I think I was at a conference this morning talking about EVs and all the money into subsidies and the charging infrastructure. And that is another affordability issue. The same conference they said the biggest issue for young people thinking to move to a town is affordability, way more than anything else. And I think the affordability of cycling is often overlooked. It's seen to be something frivolous or recreational, but as you say, for some people, it's a way of it's a it's their way to get around and save money and and survive in the world. And then of course they should be safe if they're trying to survive.

Matt Hopkins: 22:21

Yeah, I exactly. And and um, you know, I mean, you look at the the uh you know, a good segment of the folks uh that are riding bikes right now, it's it's not to make some sort of political statement or an environmental movement, it's about being able to get from point A to point B and how can they do that effectively and inexpensively, and I think it's it's such an incredible tool for that.

Peter Ladner: 22:47

Now, I also read that the motion uh without I guess getting into the weeds on this thing, the motion uh was specific that there there would be no more discussion about bike lanes with a concrete barrier separating them from traffic, but you've managed to build some bike lanes since then, grade separated, which unfortunately turned out to be way more expensive, but they don't have the barrier, so they don't break the rule. Is that correct?

Matt Hopkins: 23:14

Yeah, so so essentially what has happened is there's been there's been two different motions to stop the bike lane. The first one I talked about was probably about a year ago, wanted to stop it at Kinney Avenue, not move south. Then the one that you're referring to, um Counselor Boltby brought a motion about literally not talking about bike lanes till, like you said, 2026. And yes, so since that time, um basically what happened is that in that discussion, so Councillor Boltby brought a motion forward saying no discussions of bike lanes until 2026. That motion in the council got massaged to no uh bike lanes with concrete barriers. And so it was so I mean is that's okay. As crazy as that sounds. So you're right, Peter, in that shortly after that, there was a project to uh rework a street called Eckert Avenue. So, I mean, you'd be familiar with these in Vancouver, your time as a counselor. They have a bunch of underground services that need to be fixed. They got to go in, dig up the road, anyways. When they go to fix, when they go to replace that street, they build it to a higher standard, a safer standard, a more of a complete street. So Eckert Avenue is going to get rebuilt with the grade separated bike lanes because that's not a quote unquote concrete barrier. And that's an important uh street for us because that route, that facility, it's an east-west route. Uh, it will connect directly into our north-south lake to lake bike route. And Eckert Avenue connects also directly with the Penticton High School, as well as a connection to the KBR Trail. So you could connect from our Lake to Lake route via uh this Eckert Avenue, which is going to be finished in 2024, and ride your bike out the KBR out to Kelowna.

Peter Ladner: 25:17

That'd be the Kettle Valley Trail.

Matt Hopkins: 25:19

Yes, exactly.

Peter Ladner: 25:20

Yeah. Well, it sounds like, in spite of it all, you're you're making some progress. Has there been any upsurge in support for your side since this controversy erupted?

Matt Hopkins: 25:33

You know, I that's a very that's a good question. I think, you know, I would say yes. I mean, I think we're buoyed, like I said, by the fact that we've had a count the cities had counters on their routes on our bike lake to lake route, and now we're seeing lots of people use it. You know, the one thing I would touch on about advocacy is um, you know, we're a small bike club, you know, that mostly has a history in uh mountain bike trail maintenance. I mean, I came on four or five years ago with this interest, and the directors and the president at the time really encouraged me to sort of move forward and with this the backing of the club. Um, but I I think we're not really necessarily um in the best position to, you know, fight endlessly with counselor counselors that have an endless amount of time to focus on these. I mean, we certainly had a tremendous push, you know, at the end of 2020 and through sort of a year and a half public engagement period to get this thing approved. That was huge. But for us to constantly fight for every single motion, it's it's it's not the easiest thing for us to do. Like, I'll give you an example. Like this thing where Councillor Boltby originally about a year ago wanted to stop the progress of the bike route, you know, that came out in a council brief that was came out on a Friday afternoon, and there was gonna be a vote on her motion on Tuesday. I mean, we we're a small bike club, you know, with one halftime employee. So it it's tough, it's been tough for us to fight some of these things and sort of put our best foot forward. But I I agree with you 100% in that, you know, our Lake to Lake route is gonna be done this year. That is, it really is gonna be an incredible achievement. I mean, I I think of I guess I go back to myself and my experience riding in Vancouver and how I started. And, you know, I think about the Berard Bridge, right? And I think, man, people before me that got involved and and moved that thing forward, and there's a bike lane on the Barard Bridge, like that's why I'm here today talking to you. So I think of that myself, and I think of five years down the road in Pentecost, and what this thing's done, and people can get places, and the um, you know, I think that's when for us the dominoes start to fall and and you know, we build bigger and better and more.

Peter Ladner: 27:56

Well, Matt, you've you've talked about the Briard Bridge. When it was proposed originally, people said, who will ride their bike over there? There's nobody riding their bike. It is now considered to be the busiest bike lane in North America. So I'm looking forward to the Penticton route becoming the biggest, uh, most popular route in the interior of BC because as you say, with the Kettle Valley Rail connection and your all your major cycling tourism events, which I would assume would have the support of your wine industry and your tourism industry and your chambers of commerce, I I think that's right. You're gonna get through this thing, and I think the work that you've been doing is really gonna be rewarded.

Matt Hopkins: 28:35

Yeah, I I think so too, Peter. I mean, we're we're really, really proud of it. I mean, I, you know, I and you or or other folks would have a better idea of this. And you know, you see other things that are going on in and around BC, and you you see what's going on. Like I go to Victoria probably once or twice a year, and it's just amazing to see what's going on there. And I think things like that really give you um, you know, a lot of hope. And, you know, for us, I mean, I don't know, maybe there are other places, but for us to have a route that's gonna go from one end of town to the other is I I really do think it's gonna be transformative. It's gonna obviously take some time, but we just seeing the finish of it now is is so incredibly rewarding.

Peter Ladner: 29:18

And another thing that you haven't mentioned, but I am sure is going to happen, is that there will be a reduction in congestion if kids can ride their bikes to school on a safe route. They don't have to be sh taken there by their parents in a car and jamming up the roads. And I think people will see that benefit too.

Matt Hopkins: 29:34

I I and you know, that's so as a cycling advocate advocate, I look about, you know, try to think what is my next project going to be. And I I think about safe routes to school all the time. And, you know, now I'm a parent and I have a you know, I have a son in grade one, and I look at that, uh you know, I live on basically across the street from his school, but I look at that school and there's 125, 130 kids there, and I only see two or three bikes in that rack, and that's That's I go, that that's not right. The the adults in the room need to fix this. And so, yes, I agree with you in that that I mean, when you see that, it's I mean, it's it's transformative. And and I agree, that will certainly help us get kids moving, get people active for sure.

Peter Ladner: 30:20

Well, fantastic. And uh I hope you have the same success with uh safe streets to school and whatever else new one you take on.

Matt Hopkins: 30:28

Yeah, you know, I appreciate that.

Peter Ladner: 30:30

And I look forward to coming up and and trying this stuff out. I gotta say, as a as a one as a potential tourist, the the idea that you have those bike routes there, that's appealing to me. I think, oh good, I can go and noodle around on my bike and not get run over by a truck.

Matt Hopkins: 30:43

You know, when it's funny you say that, because you touched on that earlier, and one thing that I heard from I've met with the tourism board here previously about these ideas, and one thing they're still using and that they love, and this guy that runs the tourism board was talking about is they have this whole campaign about fuel-free. And he has this whole vision when people come, they put their car keys down and they don't touch them until they leave town. And so they've been using that for a few years. And to hear you say that, I mean, that sort of it does resonate, and I understand that because this uh gentleman, his name's Tom Tishik, and he uh he really believes in that and they're talking about it every year. So uh I think that's gonna even be better now that people can get right down to Skaha Lake Park from the downtown end of Penticton. So yeah.

Peter Ladner: 31:24

I saw that fuel-free Penticton, foot, pedal, and paddle. There you go. So that's it. Yeah. Let's do it all. Well, Matt, we're gonna leave it there. I just want to put in a plug for the uh the active transportation summit that the BC Cycling Coalition is doing in in partnership with the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, June 18th and 19th in New Westminster. And I'm pretty confident that we will have a session on safe routes to school because as we've thought about advocacy, we thought if you had to start somewhere, as you obviously do, everybody does, um, who can argue against safety and health for kids and clean air and lack of congestion and danger for traffic outside schools? So go for that. Uh, we'll be there with you. And uh thank you so much for telling us your story and all the best. Thanks, Peter.

Matt Hopkins: 32:16

Yeah, thanks so much for reaching out to me.

Peter Ladner: 32:21

Thanks for listening to BikeSense and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. The BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richard Muell Sutton, ICBC, Moto, and the Bicycle Pro. Visit us at BCcycling.ca.

To get involved contact Matt at  urban.director@bikepenticton.com

What would happen if the BC government spent as much on active transportation as it is does on one tunnel crossing?  Answer: Castlegar would have a full bike and pedestrian network, and New West would be Copenhagen.

Johnstone makes a passionate case for why this level of spending is needed to meet BC’s CleanBC transportation goals, which would also solve the "congestion problem". He also explains why road pricing (to finance transit and active transportation) seems to be the eternal third rail of BC politics, even though people really want bike lanes and transit -- especially the Rad e-bike moms of New West!

Release date: February 07, 2024