Imagine riding along dedicated trails through ancient forests and pristine valleys, stopping at local cafes and wineries along the way. This vision of cycle tourism isn't just a cyclist's dream – it's a billion-dollar economic opportunity, as Let's Go Biking author Colleen MacDonald reveals in our captivating conversation.

Colleen brings unparalleled expertise to the discussion, having completed 150 cycling trips across 44 countries and authored three definitive guidebooks on cycling in British Columbia. Her philosophy is refreshingly practical: build cycling infrastructure for locals first, then connect communities, and finally invite the world to experience what BC has to offer. 

Whether you're a cycling enthusiast planning your next adventure, a community planner interested in sustainable tourism, or simply someone who appreciates BC's natural beauty, this episode offers a compelling vision of how cycle tourism could transform our province while preserving what makes it special.

Released: Oct. 1, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Colleen MacDonald is one of the most active grandmothers I know. She's written three books on cycle touring. She's got a new one in the works, she's taken 150 cycling trips in 44 countries and I'm very happy to say she's recently joined the BC Cycling Coalition as a board member. And I'm very happy to say she's recently joined the BC Cycling Coalition as a board member so she can work on cycle tourism and that is something we're going to talk about what it is, why we like it, what it takes to make it happen and what are the next steps in BC to realize its full potential. Welcome, colleen. Hi, thank you Great to be here.

Colleen MacDonald: 1:08

First question tell me the last bike trip you took. Well, we were in Spain and Portugal. We actually did two trips back to back and discovered the Costa Brava, and then we did Porto to Lisbon. So that was very fun to explore over there. Do you ride an e-bike or a regular bike. Both my husband and I are in our 70s now, and e-bikes came along at just the right time for us.

Peter Ladner: 1:31

So you're an e-bike rider? Yes, so these rides that you're enamored of and writing about and describing these, are suitable for people who are not super serious, you know, trained up Fondo type riders, but just regular people who can ride e-bikes or whatever kind of bike.

Colleen MacDonald: 1:49

Exactly, and all the rides I like to do are smell the roses kinds of rides. So something fun and easy.

Peter Ladner: 1:56

So, other than giving you an opportunity to smell the roses, why do we want cycle tourism? What's the big deal? Why are you so interested in it?

Colleen MacDonald: 2:05

Well, I love cycle touring around the world. I'd like to do more in BC and actually we have a lot here, but it is fun to go to other countries because their networks are so organized and it's easy to travel around. It's fun to go to restaurants and things like that.

Peter Ladner: 2:23

What are the lessons when you go to other countries and you go to some of these places? What are you thinking about? Oh, we should be doing this in BC, we should. We should do X, we should do Y. What are some of the things that you think about that we could do relatively easily?

Colleen MacDonald: 2:37

Oh, it's just amazing what we could do here in BC and we're already doing quite a bit. But you know I get tired of taking plane rides places and I just like to go right out the front door or in my neighborhood or take a ferry and explore our own world. Here we have so much to offer for locals and tourists.

Peter Ladner: 2:57

Where do you live, Colleen I?

Colleen MacDonald: 2:58

live in the Lower Mainland near Port Moody.

Peter Ladner: 3:02

And do you have a favorite route out your back door that you like? Well?

Colleen MacDonald: 3:04

we love the Poco Trail. It's an amazing route and I can go right from my house around the Poco Trail and connect all kinds of places. There's so many great things, places to explore in the lower mainland.

Peter Ladner: 3:18

Tell us about some of your favorite rides around BC, because I know you've written books about just about rides in BC. Tell us about some of them and make me want to go on it.

Colleen MacDonald: 3:29

Oh, there are so many favorite rides. I just love the Okanagan, especially what they're up to. They're connecting all their routes. The island is an amazing place to ride, Even just locally here in the Lower Mainland it's fabulous. And of course, Whistler is just one of my favorite places. So we have a lot to offer.

Peter Ladner: 3:50

Now it seems that one of the secrets of successful cycle touring routes is a circular route that people can do. Can you describe circular routes we already have in BC and some that we could have, should have circular?

Colleen MacDonald: 4:05

routes we already have in BC and some that we could have should have. Well, one of the most popular circular routes is on the South Island. Goes from Victoria up to Cowichan and then over to the Gulf Islands, so that's a very popular route. We have other larger circular routes that are popular, mostly with road bikers because the infrastructure is not there for the kind of riding that I like. But yeah, loops are good but linear is fun too. Like the Okanagan Rail Trail is one of my favorites. It goes from Kelowna to Vernon but the Okanagan is getting very, very connected all the way along.

Peter Ladner: 4:42

What does it take to connect these routes, because I know, and I'm thinking about routes that are not just for people who are willing to brave the highways. But you mentioned the Cowichan to Gulf Islands route and I know that there's a section on Salt Spring Island that's not protected and maybe the last section of that route that isn't. Have you talked to those people in Salt Spring Island or figured out what it would take to make it all protected or somehow more attractive to regular, safety conscious cyclists?

Colleen MacDonald: 5:13

Definitely. I'm really in contact with Salt Spring Island and they're very excited to know that the CRD is planning a route across Salt Spring. It's going to be a two-phase route. It's going to be a two-phase route. It's going to be one part done in one year and the next part done in the next year and that will really close the gap on the Three Ferries route, which is a really popular route on the island. Most people who live on the island do that route at least once or twice a year. Now the big complaint is the dangerous riding across Salt Spring Island. But with the CRD planning to put in safe, separated cycling across there, it's going to be one of the key routes in BC that would be a circular route.

Peter Ladner: 5:55

Say that near big centres of population that you can point to, that. Say, if we could just get to work on this, we could really have a showcase example.

Colleen MacDonald: 6:12

Well, the Sunshine Coast is working on the Connect the Coast. They have done their preliminary studies. They know it's doable. They're working on getting funding for their completed plan and their vision is to connect the Sunshine Coast from the Langdale Ferry to the Egmont Ferry, which will be a huge, huge boost to cycle tourism for the links that we have on the South Island. A lot of people like to do that route now, but they're mostly road cyclists who are really confident riding with big trucks and cars not something that I could ever do. When the Connect the Coast safe, separated cycling route is created, it will attract a lot more visitors visitors like me who like slow biking but it will also connect the local communities. So again, we start with the locals and then we move on to connecting the communities. It's going to be a fabulous, fabulous project. Now they just need a little bit of funding. Like a lot of funding.

Peter Ladner: 7:12

They actually need a lot of funding. There are no shoulders on that route and you'd have to cut into cliffs and stuff. But what about the rail line from Squamish North to Prince George that has recently been abandoned? There's the routes already there. Oh, my goodness what does it take to turn that into a cycle?

Colleen MacDonald: 7:32

How many years have I driven up and seen that empty train track? It hasn't been used for a couple of years. And I just think, if we had the rail trail as a rail trail, as an active transportation corridor, well, I think more than that. I think it would provide egress, like they have done in the Miller Creek Trail in Whistler. That is emergency egress, and this Sea to Sky Trail could be emergency egress and also active transportation. I think, oh my goodness, it would be a dream come true if that happened.

Peter Ladner: 8:08

That's an interesting angle to think of these as escape routes. In the case of a forest fire, for example, which would be a very big problem at Whistler and I know some people who've already envisioned themselves escaping on their e-bikes. They've got extra batteries and a go bag ready and imagine a lot of people streaming down that railroad track and another way to pitch it to justify funding as well.

Colleen MacDonald: 8:35

Well, I think it's a natural fit, and you know, but some people want to get the rail service up and running, and if that's a possibility, that would be nice too.

Peter Ladner: 8:51

But if that is not a possibility, then I would be. Oh, I couldn't wait to ride that trail. Well, that'll be an ongoing debate, because that debate is going on in the Vancouver Island as well. And do we give up on the trains, or do we try to accommodate trains and cycles, or just make it cycling?

Colleen MacDonald: 9:03

Well back to the island. The E&N Rail Trail is just a natural spine for connecting communities up and down the island and will also be an amazing cycle tourism draw, I know, and also someplace in eastern US which you see as somewhat comparable to BC where tell us in New Zealand what they've done and what the impact has been on their economy?

Colleen MacDonald: 9:35

Well, new Zealand. We went on a bike ride about a year and a half to New Zealand and we were absolutely delighted with what we found. The cycling network there is absolutely off the charts and a real role model for us in BC. Now, in 2002, they started with one rail trail in Otago by 2009,. They were looking for some diversification away from the mining industry, and so the government seeded a $50 million fund to grow cycle tourism, cycling and hiking tourism in New Zealand.

Colleen MacDonald: 10:08

Well now, fast forward to now, they have over 2,800 kilometers of rides and their economy their cycle tourism economy is worth $1 billion annually. So for them that's a 1 to 20 return on investment. But beyond all the numbers, as a rider, the trails are fun, they're accessible for all skill levels. They've solved gaps creatively with shuttles, ferries, suspension bridge, even a jet boat through part of the Roxborough Gorge. We just couldn't believe what they have done and are doing in New Zealand, and we're so excited about it. We're actually going to go back next year and see some of the new connections that they have built. So we're pretty excited about the role model that New Zealand offers for BC.

Peter Ladner: 10:56

Well, the fact that you want to go back there is a pretty strong indicator that these are tourism attractors. But you've also made the point that they work best for tourists when they work for the locals. Can you just describe why that makes sense?

Colleen MacDonald: 11:15

Well, I feel that you build first for the locals. You can go right out your door and connect to local trails, either leisurely trails or like transportation, active transportation links. I feel you should go right from your door and then, when we have people who can go right from our own door, then we can invite others to come and visit our communities. And then you start connecting communities and pretty soon you have a cycle tourism network.

Peter Ladner: 11:44

You start connecting communities and pretty soon you have a cycle tourism network. Now I expect that New Zealand has a pretty active and sophisticated marketing system. If they've got that kind of money flowing into the country, what do they do to coordinate promotion of all these routes?

Colleen MacDonald: 11:58

Oh, it's absolutely fabulous their marketing and their infrastructure. You can go and find any trail that you want to explore. You can find service providers from that website. They make it fun. All the trails have great names that make it really enticing. The West Coast Wilderness Trail and their marketing is just world class. But we're doing similar kinds of marketing in BC. We just have to get a little bit more coordinated and really promote what we actually have.

Peter Ladner: 12:28

I think Colleen, what role do fondos and organized events, bike festivals, if there are any play in all of this? Because I would think, for example, there's a fondo in Kimberley around the time of our conference and I imagine there will be hundreds of people coming there, many of them from out of town, because somebody's organized something for them. Is that important? Is that useful?

Colleen MacDonald: 12:52

Well, I think the events are hugely important. The events and the bike parks bring a lot of cycle tourists to BC. I don't personally go in the Grand Fondo, but a lot of people do and they're coming to BC. They're saying, okay, I'm going to do the Fondo, but what else is here for cycling? And you know, we had Crankworx in Whistler recently that brings people from all over the world. There's the BC Bike Race, even the slow food rides that we see in communities. These all showcase our neighborhoods and they showcase BC around the world. So this is an important part of our cycle tourism.

Peter Ladner: 13:29

I love those slow food rides. I did one by Pemberton one time and one around Chilliwack and you get to stop and eat and just watch cows getting milked and find out about cheeses and beer and potato vodka and all this kind of stuff.

Colleen MacDonald: 13:47

Slow food rides are fabulous. That's my favorite kind of riding kind of writing.

Peter Ladner: 14:04

Well, in some ways you're a one-person marketing machine because you have written three books about. Your three books are all about BC. Did I get that right?

Colleen MacDonald: 14:08

Yeah, Vancouver first, Okanagan next and then, just in the last two years, I wrote Vancouver Island. So I'll tell you something about my books. I wrote the book I wanted to buy.

Peter Ladner: 14:23

Ah, so domestic market first, and then the outsiders will come and read it.

Colleen MacDonald: 14:27

I wanted to know where I could go writing. So I found out where I could go writing and then I figured if I needed a book to find, or a map and a route and a book, then other people might too. And so I do my book writing and my blog as my volunteer work. It's not for profit. Any money that is made from book sales I put back into cycling advocacy with donations to BC Cycling Coalition Hub, cycling and Trails BC and other local groups. So I really believe that you know, it's just a way of sharing the great things that we have here in the cycle world.

Peter Ladner: 15:05

So if we wanted to promote cycle tourism, why don't we just tell people to go buy your books and go to your website? They're called let's Go Biking. And are we done? Is that it? What more do we need to do?

Colleen MacDonald: 15:14

No, no, no, no. There's so much more we could do. Since I've written the Vancouver book, there's been so much infrastructure that's put in place that I am actually working on a rewrite of that. It takes a couple of years to write a book, but I'm working on a rewrite to show the connections that we have. I'll just give an example. Out in Langley, I had a standalone ride here, a standalone ride there, and now Langley has built so many connecting routes and trails that I'm going to be able to link them all together. So I'm excited about the progress that we've made that I see personally in the last 10 years all over BC.

Peter Ladner: 15:50

Well, I like that your books go out of date, Colleen, because it means we're making progress. Someone told me that Chilliwack is now laced with all sorts of impressive bike trails. Have you been there?

Colleen MacDonald: 16:00

Oh yeah, the Vedder Trail loop in Chilliwack is one of my favorite rides. They have many other connecting the Canyon to Coast Trail, which is one of the BC routes that we're all working on here in BC, has a great first section right there out of Chilliwack. So yeah, I love the Chilliwack area and Hope and Harrison and Agassiz and Abbotsford Just get me excited on the great things that we're doing here in the Fraser Valley.

Peter Ladner: 16:30

And why can you tell us about how First Nations are involved in these projects?

Colleen MacDonald: 16:35

Well, I am really excited about the First Nations aspect of trails. I'll give an example in Tofino, from Tofino to Euclid, the First Nations there was given funding to create the Upscheek-Tashee Trail which connects Tofino to Euclid and honestly I think it is one of the best trails in the world. The construction, the planning is just outstanding. It's fun. It's like riding a whoop-dee-doo ride. If you haven't gone to Tofino, you better go, because it is an amazing experience.

Peter Ladner: 17:12

I've wanted to do that. We did a podcast with Josie Osborne, who's the former mayor of Tofino, about that route and I haven't been on it but I'd sure like to have you done any. Tell us what you know about the Great Blue Heron Way.

Colleen MacDonald: 17:24

Oh, I'm so excited about the Great Blue Heron Way. This is Elder Ruth Adams from the Tawasin First Nations and she's working together with Trails BC and First Nations, and she's working together with Trails BC and a route has been planned and now they're looking for funding to connect sections of the route. It's mostly on greenways throughout BC and she's worked extensively with the team from Trails BC. Leon LeBrun is one of the key people who have created the route for the Great Blue Heron Way and now we're just looking for some support from the government, some encouragement, some funding to get this underway. This will be a fabulous draw for people locally and from around the world and the stories that they're telling along the way. That's the key thing. Her vision was to connect First Nations back together the ones that have been severed by highways and trains and things like this and to provide a link for First Nations people, but other people too, to tell the stories of the Stolo, the Salish Sea and the islands. I'm so excited about the Great Blue Heron Way.

Peter Ladner: 18:35

How close is it to completion?

Colleen MacDonald: 18:37

Oh, no, no, Not close to completion. They're at the mapping stage and the identifying stage. Now we need some signage, we need some encouragement, some connections on something Like the biggest drawback there is the Delta Port how they have severed the crossing from the Tuasen over to the. It used to be called Brunswick Point, it's called Canoe Pass, now named Ladner. You know there's things like that, that you know a pedestrian bridge or a tunnel there could quickly solve that problem and allow the connection of the trails.

Peter Ladner: 19:12

Colleen, does your book just deal with trails for road bikers? Where do mountain bikers fit into this? Because I know there are a lot of somewhat more rugged or demanding trails that will take you ever more places, and I know the mountain bike situation seen in BC is so alive. Do you tell people about or do you see those as tourism potential?

Colleen MacDonald: 19:34

Well, for me personally, most of the mountain bike trails that are in bike parks and things like that are too difficult, so that wouldn't be my first choice of riding. But it does have a very large draw and a large cycle tourism draw. Mostly the kind of routes I find are easy, like Whistler Valley Trail, around Stanley Park kind of thing, the Okanagan Rail Trail. I mostly look for the kinds of rides that I can do and there's a large market of I call them slow riders, slow bikers.

Peter Ladner: 20:11

Is there a municipality or region that you think really gets it in BC and is showing the way for others to follow?

Colleen MacDonald: 20:21

Oh man, there are so many. The Galloping Goose and the Lockside has been an amazing accomplishment. And that one for people who don't know it goes from From Schwartz Bay Ferry to Victoria and then out to Souk, the Galloping Goose. Galloping Goose was one of our first cycle tourism kinds of routes and what I'm talking about there is the highest searched route on my blog.

Peter Ladner: 20:50

Wow, so you are the data source on this. I was just going to say do we have data on how many people, how many tourists let's talk about tourists how many tourists come and what they add to the local economy?

Colleen MacDonald: 21:02

Well, I don't actually have the data on that.

Peter Ladner: 21:05

Well, your searches. Wouldn't that be like some kind of data point?

Colleen MacDonald: 21:09

Yeah, Well, I'm just searching for rides that I would like to ride. Now I'll tell you a little bit about my process on that. I can't know where all the rides are in the Okanagan or on the island, because I'm not there very often. So what I did when I was writing the books was connect with the local groups. Ribbons of Green in Vernon has an amazing resource and I connected with Ingrid Newman from Ribbons of Green and together we put Vernon on the map in terms of routes, and they've done a lot since the book was written and Ribbons of Green has all the routes that they need. Over on the island, in Comox, I met with the group of riders over there. We did a lot of Zoom calls. They would tell me their little secret routes and where they like to ride and together with all these groups all over BC, I found where the locals like to ride. So it started for me from the local base and then we invite our neighbors and then maybe from there we invite the world, who knows?

Peter Ladner: 22:13

So, from a provincial point of view, other other than you, who seem to be pulling a lot of these people together, who else, if anybody is, is trying to coordinate all this? And maybe you can say something about what you're planning to do at the our conference in kimberly in september 10th to 12th, which will be happening after? Some people will be listening to this, so I'm not just using this as a promo for the conference, but what needs to be done to get beyond your personal efforts to link people together and show these roots to the world.

Colleen MacDonald: 22:47

Okay, well, I will tell you, most of the grassroots level, or the wheels on the ground level, want cycle tourism here in our province because, like I say, we just want to go out the door, we want to be close, we want to just be able to explore our communities, we want to go and visit other communities and connect with them and then after that, as I said, we would invite the world. But what we need, the people in the communities know what needs to be done, they know what they need to enhance the gaps they need to improve and they're ready to go. They have their answers, but they need some help with the funding. And this is where I believe the government needs to step in, like the New Zealand government did, and create a board that actually works to work with the local groups to create a cycling network in BC.

Peter Ladner: 23:41

Who do you see being on that board? Was it the Ministry of Tourism? The Ministry of Transportation and Transit? I don't know, somebody from the UBCM.

Colleen MacDonald: 23:52

Well, yeah, all of those people need to be there. We met on Salt Spring Island with Lana Popham At the time she was the Minister of Tourism and Sport and she was so encouraging and so enthusiastic and said that you know they were going to be doing some cycling routes, or at least signing some cycling routes in time for FIFA. But we haven't seen solid evidence of that yet. So we're about a year out. So maybe some miracle will happen and those routes will be at least signed and created. But you know, we just really need to work together, pull together and make this happen, and I really feel the time is right. I feel that we have the market for it, we have the desire for it, we have the need for it for active transportation, and I think we can do it.

Peter Ladner: 24:43

Can you just say what impact you think the upsurge in e-bike use and ownership has on all of this?

Colleen MacDonald: 24:53

Absolutely humongous. It's been a game changer, for for myself. I've been riding an e-bike for about 10 years, and not so much from a physical need but for more of an exploring need. I can go farther, I can go places that I wouldn't be able to go on just a regular bike, but it really opens up doors. So, for example, there are routes that I might have put in my vancouver book initially, but they were too hilly. Well, now they're going in the next book for sure, because now they're great e-bike routes and I have seen so many people over the years who have rediscovered the fun of cycle tourism or cycling even in their neighborhood. With the advancement of e-bikes they're just really opening up possibilities.

Peter Ladner: 25:38

Tell me if you know about any chambers of commerce or tourism businesses that are active on this, because I see cycle tourism as getting beyond your usual cyclist constituency into an economic development zone that I would think would be of some great interest to chambers of commerce destination promoting organizations. Do you see them stepping up?

Colleen MacDonald: 26:07

It's been my experience that most chambers of commerce and tourism really are in favor of cycle tourism, really are in favor of cycle tourism. My sense is they don't have the money either and they're busy supporting so many other aspects of the tourism industry. But I feel that cycle tourists just add so much to the travel in a community. For one thing, they're out of their cars it's a slower pace. You're stopping by more stores and restaurants and coffee shops, wineries, this kind of thing. They're out of their cars, it's a slower pace. You're stopping by more stores and restaurants and coffee shops, wineries, this kind of thing. When you're out and you're on the ground. And even businesses in Vancouver have found, when a cycle path goes in front of their businesses, like the ones along Union Street, that their business has increased. So my sense of it is without actual numbers to back that up is that, yeah, absolutely, communities want a cycle tourist. A cycle tourist is a low-impact, high-economic-benefit type of tourist.

Peter Ladner: 27:15

Are there any provinces in Canada that are setting an example, Because I know so often if somebody in a policy or financial decision-making position can see it working somewhere, maybe even visit there and see the impact? We've talked about New Zealand, but something closer to home that we could sort of find is comparable.

Colleen MacDonald: 27:36

Well, quebec started about 15 years ago doing exactly what New Zealand has done over the last few years, and their routes now are connected routes over 5,000 kilometers all throughout the province and it's spilling into the bordering area along Ontario. Ontario now has what's called the Waterfront Trail which goes on many sections of the Great Lakes, and they're also using the same kind of funding government funding, government support, government marketing. That the Route Vert is doing so it makes for easy visiting. That the route Baird is doing so it makes for easy visiting, easy access, easy travel. And this is why I'm saying I really feel the BC government has a huge opportunity here to enhance cycle tourism and, let's say, active transportation tourism. So it's just one more component to make to show BC off. Bc is so amazing. Let's just show it off in different ways.

Peter Ladner: 28:42

You've identified in some cases, businesses that grow up to or have grown up to service this not just hotels or cafes, but actually people who take guided tours or rent bikes and can you talk a little bit about that whole aspect? Because that would both create jobs and investment, but it would also make it easier for tourists. They don't have to bring a bike or perhaps research the routes, they just go to some tour guide or store somewhere and off they go, it's all figured out for them.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:15

We'll have a great example of that.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:19

Paul Taplin from Ireland saw BC as just a great place to show off and he married a woman from Victoria so they moved together here and he had the vision to take people on tours.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:34

So he started off just picking people up at their hotel in Vancouver, taking them over to Lynn Canyon for a hike, telling them about the trees and the wildlife and everything over there.

Colleen MacDonald: 29:44

Then he'd take them in his shuttle van out to Pit Meadows and take them for a cycle tour around Pit Meadows, have lunch out at one of the local restaurants and make a real day of it, showing people an aspect of Vancouver that was different than Gastown or Granville Island or Stanley Park around the park kind of loop. And so he started about 10 years ago and now he's grown that business. He takes people from all over the world on cycle trips to Vancouver Island, the Okanagan and the Kootenays, but more than that trips to Vancouver Island, the Okanagan and the Kootenays, but more than that he's fun and he actually has become quite a good friend of ours and we went with him on a cycle tour back to his native Ireland and his mom and dad helped drive the shuttle van and we had a group of about 15 of our friends along and we just had the most fun. Anyways, that's an example of someone who saw the opportunity here in BC and has grown into a fantastic business and he offers guided and self-guided tours and it's really fun.

Peter Ladner: 30:49

You have mentioned that signage is important and I'm thinking about quick wins. I mean, it would be great to spend the $600,000 per kilometer which I understand it would take to take the E&N rail into a fully functional cycle route. But are there some quick wins with just better signage where the routes are there but people just don't know about them?

Colleen MacDonald: 31:13

Absolutely, and I feel that maps and signage are our first thing. We do Map signage and also putting a technology on an app, just letting people know where they can go. There was a little yellow sticker with a little black arrow and that was enough for us to know we were on the right track. We weren't deviating from where we should be. So signage can be simple or signage could be more complex. Now, when we look at the canyon to coast route, that starts out well. It continues throughout the Lower Mainland. You can see sections throughout the Lower Mainland, but the start section out in Chilliwack has great signage, a real nice logo, and it's really clear when you're riding the route that you're on the route. So I think signage is one of the first things we could do to make more routes accessible. I just want to say something about that too.

Colleen MacDonald: 32:10

In New Zealand, they have a great route called the Alp to Ocean, so they start at Mount Cook and they go right down to the ocean. It's quite a few days. You can ride this route or you can do it in pieces if you like, but they have signage all the way. Now, this is not a designated, ready-to-go mop cycling trail. This is a route, and so what we're talking about here in creating cycling tourism in BC is not so much the actual infrastructure like the Okanagan Rail Trail, but signing a route, but making sure along the route that there are nice shoulders and things like that. So we could get started with signed routes, I would think next year.

Peter Ladner: 32:51

Colleen, you've done a great service to this province and to this cause. Well, you've done a great service to this province and to this cause and I just have to commend you for that and encourage you to keep going, and I really would love to see you. Your new book is about cycling around the world, is that right? Yeah so then I would want to go to Albania or something.

Colleen MacDonald: 33:10

We've been to Albania I bet you have. Yeah, so there are so many places to ride around the world, but you know we've got it here too and, uh, I just love making maps. I'm pretty excited to get going on the cycle tourism bigger maps to encourage people to connect our communities and, uh, and find their way around bc would you be open to people contacting you directly who want to follow up on this?

Peter Ladner: 33:38

get more involved, do something in their area.

Colleen MacDonald: 33:41

Oh, absolutely, I get so many emails from people all over the world. In fact, I had someone from down in the southern states, carolina I think, this morning, say I'm coming to the island, would you help me decide where to go? I said, oh, absolutely, that sounds like fun. So, yeah, I am really keen. I hear from people all over and I'm always glad to know that they have found a fun place to ride, walk or roll?

Peter Ladner: 34:09

Is there a role for a more institutionalized response to those emails, like a government website or a I don't know Velo BC website or something where people could go and find out all this stuff?

Colleen MacDonald: 34:22

Well, I think we're going to do that on the BC Cycling Coalition website, aren't we?

Peter Ladner: 34:26

Okay, let's do it. Anything else you want to add or tell us about?

Colleen MacDonald: 34:33

Well, I'll just summarize by saying I truly believe cycle tourism in BC is doable, it's practical and it pays off. And I hope the government is listening because I think they could have a nice profit segment if they paid attention to the cycle tourism which they are doing with active transportation. But we could always do a little bit more and then, once that's in place, we're going to have to share our story and then more people will come to our neighborhoods and more people will come from international places. And when people explore around and visit communities, businesses grow, communities thrive and BC will become an even better global cycling destination.

Peter Ladner: 35:20

Thanks, colleen. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. Cyclingca. You can help us amplify BC cycling coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

To read more about Colleen's adventures, order her books, or connect with her about Cycle Tourism, visit www.letsgobiking.net 

Follow Colleen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/letsgobikingnow

Trail Rep for the Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association, Founding Member of the Mission Community Cycling Coalition, former bike-shop owner, and also motorcycle enthusiast Rocky Blondin reveals how the once-clear distinction between motorized and non-motorized vehicles has become dangerously blurred. 

Release Date: September 10, 2025

Transcript: Season 3, Episode 9 – When E-Bikes Become Motorcycles: The Gray Areas of Electric Transportation with Rocky Blondin. Sept. 10, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. It's not all roses in electric mobility land was a sentence that came to me from today's guest, rocky Blunden, telling stories about issues of e-bikes and e-scooters and irresponsible cycling behavior. You may have heard about the 12-year-old cyclist who killed a pedestrian in Calgary. You may have seen gangs of 14-year-olds on e-bikes and e-scooters behaving somewhat recklessly in a town near you. You may have heard about the UK police impounding e-bikes that are actually not e-bikes they're just motorcycles in disguise. In disguise, and Rocky Blundin is the trail rep for the Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association and a founding member for the Mission Community Cycling Coalition, so he straddles both the mountain bike issues related to this topic and the ones in the cities. Welcome, rocky. Hi Peter, thanks for having me the cities.

Rocky Blondin: 1:43

Welcome Rocky. Hi Peter, thanks for having me.

Peter Ladner: 1:45

So, before we start, I just want to ask you what was your latest bike ride that you've done?

Rocky Blondin: 1:55

Last night Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association had a social ride here in Mission up on Bear Mountain, so I rode to the hills and did some trails in light rain with about 30 or 40 others.

Peter Ladner: 2:02

Very nice, yeah, right around the same time I was at the opening ride for the Granville connector in Vancouver.

Rocky Blondin: 2:08

Oh fun.

Peter Ladner: 2:09

How many bikes do you own? Honestly straight to the point here 11.

Rocky Blondin: 2:16

Whoa.

Peter Ladner: 2:19

That's just you, I have six.

Rocky Blondin: 2:22

There's 11 in my garage. Your wife has the other five, my wife has two, my son has two and my other son has one. I don't know if that adds up to 11, but I'm pretty sure there's 11 down there.

Peter Ladner: 2:33

Okay, so you qualify for the podcast I I it full disclosure.

Rocky Blondin: 2:38

I used to own a bike shop. I got caveat that that I owned a bike shop up until 2023 and therefore comes with the territory you kind of have to as a business practice.

Peter Ladner: 2:46

So oh, okay. So I was going to ask you how you got involved with cycling advocacy.

Rocky Blondin: 2:53

Uh, that is a good question. So I started mountain biking in 2003,. Give or take, my college roommate dragged me up to SFU and then I found out there was a group working on those trails, got interested in what that meant, I went to their AGM and sat down. It was my first AGM I'd ever been to for any organization. I was in my early 20s and they said at the end of the meeting they were looking for extra board members. They said, well, we need a couple more board members so we're giving away a hat.

Rocky Blondin: 3:19

Anybody want a free hat? I said, well, that sounds great, I'll take a free hat. So I signed up for the board, not having no idea what that meant, and I quickly became a board member of the Burnaby Mountain Bike Association. And from that point forward I've been on the board of the Burnaby Mountain Bike Association, involved with the Tri-Cities Off-Road Cycling Association and now here in Mission with the Fraser Valley Mountain Biking Association. And through that affiliation I got pulled into call it urban cycling advocacy. The city of Mission formed a cycling task force and my name was on the list of people to pester to join that to figure out where to put bike lanes and such in our community.

Peter Ladner: 3:59

Now you have a special status in my heart and mind because you're a podcast fan. You approached us about this podcast and you mentioned that, as a result of listening to this podcast, your wife, I believe, was going to, or would like to, start a chapter of Cycling Without Age, taking elderly people around in trash hos. Is that happening?

Rocky Blondin: 4:21

Yeah, I feel a bit of first-time caller, long-time listener here, and so we've listened to the podcast on and off and one of the episodes did inspire us to investigate what that looked like. That community has been welcoming to learn about and my wife's taking the lead there. Cheryl she's looking into opening a chapter here next year. They did caution, all the challenges associated costs and logistics, so she's working through those, but it's looking promising and it just sounds wonderful because it resonated with me. My mom died a couple of years ago and had some cognitive decline and all she really wanted in her elder years was to to ride a bike again, and I would have loved for that program to exist. If I could have taken my mom for a bike ride, it would have basically, yeah, made her year.

Peter Ladner: 5:09

So to do that for others would be wonderful. Why did you contact me?

Rocky Blondin: 5:15

So I reached out because I'm working on an awareness advocacy campaign contained within electric mobility awareness advocacy campaign contained within electric mobility. I'm seeing a common element between what challenges related to e-scooters and e-bikes and they overlap so you can almost capture the whole problem within without identifying each element. And it amounts to. Historically, we had a very clear delineation between a motorized thing and a non-motorized thing. So you had, if it had an engine like a dirt bike, it was a motorized thing. If non-motorized thing, so you had, if it had an engine like a dirt bike, it was a motorized thing. If it was a pedal bike, it was different.

Rocky Blondin: 5:50

And it's only with electric mobility that those lines have crossed over, and it's especially with e-bikes because a pedal assist class one, e-bikes is treated in our, in bc, uh, as a cycle, as a bicycle, it's not any different. So you can ride on trails, you can ride in bike paths, and so that's the legal framework around. It Sounds great, I support that and think it's wonderful. However, that opened kind of the fox into the henhouse and now electric motors of bigger and more powerful means are going on the trails, are going into bike lanes and, like you talked in the intro about motorcycles couching themselves as e-bikes. When I encounter one of these devices that shouldn't be where it is, the first thing out of their mouth is I say well, that's a motorcycle, you shouldn't be here. And they go no, it's an e-bike and it's an electric motorcycle, but it's the first thing.

Peter Ladner: 6:40

So where would you draw the line between motorized and non-motorized?

Rocky Blondin: 6:48

So for me and that's where e-scooters and e-bikes do have a bit of a delineation E-bikes it's pedal assist, only 32 kilometers an hour, max 500 watts, and those are the regulations that the provincial government has put onto trails and for most bike paths. I think this is where the regulatory environment is really confusing, because the off-road use and the on-road use rules don't overlap. They don't overlap perfectly, and so it creates gray areas.

Peter Ladner: 7:18

Why, then, is it possible to sell an illegal e-bike? I've seen these ones with the little faux pedals sticking out that I don't even know if they even move, but they're supposed to make it look like an e-bike, I think. And yet it's all souped up and way over the limits you just described.

Rocky Blondin: 7:35

Yeah, funny enough, that problem is, I think, as old as time, because I remember as a kid gas-powered mopeds having little pedals hanging off the sides, so they were low power motorized vehicles, couching themselves as something else, and the pedals were purely decorative. So that's not actually new, that the means of powering it it can be, you know, gasoline, it can be electric, it could be a nuclear reactor, it's all the same. Outcome here it's that that's a motorized machine and it shouldn't be where it's going. And but the e-bikes being allowed, there is the thing that's now blurted because you, you're letting that person with pedals and a motor in. Why can't I go?

Peter Ladner: 8:14

why does it matter?

Rocky Blondin: 8:16

um, so I can. I could speak to the trail side and then my urban environment side. So I live in a suburban environment. Um, we've got e-scooters, the gangs we talked about, rolling around teenagers everywhere. I think it's one part. Wonderful, and then also terrifying when they're doing 80 kilometers an hour on a sidewalk and cutting into traffic. That's terrifying 80.

Peter Ladner: 8:35

Wait, hang on 80 kilometers an hour on a sidewalk that actually happens are moving yes, okay not all that, they all come.

Rocky Blondin: 8:45

They all come in various power levels, um and so, but there's some. There's a one specific in our neighborhood, absolutely it's doing 80, 90 like yeah okay, so speeding, dangerous behavior, dangerous riding yeah, and the speeding comes with the inertia behind it.

Rocky Blondin: 9:01

You've got a machine and a person doing a lot of you know, uh, got a lot of power there, and so they can hurt themselves and others. Um, so that's on the urban side. And then we've got, um, these things are normally called surrounds or, you know, commonly called surrounds, but it's an electric motorcycle or electric dirt bike and we see those running around the city parks. We built a pump track here for cyclists and they're riding the pump track and endangering the kids that are using that, because now it's a motorcycle that can land on a kid who's on a scooter. It's it's a mismatched use. You typically don't want, you know, you don't want your kid playing in traffic. You don't want a motorcycle on a pump track. That's a bad idea and it is illegal. That's explicitly forbidden on the science, but people are doing it so if it's illegal, what sort of is there?

Peter Ladner: 9:44

Does anybody ever go to a bike shop and say, what are you doing with that bike? Or, like they did in the UK, do the police go around and grab these bikes and take them away and pound them or confiscate them in some way?

Rocky Blondin: 9:56

Here in Mission I'll speak to that. So our community has gone on the record. The CAO has stated that the RCMP won't enforce e-scooter and e-bike regulations because they're too busy dealing with other things. So it's a case where the you know from call it management directive is that's not a crime we're worth pursuing. But then it's also, I don't think historically we've had a lot of enforcement in these areas because you know, when I was young, friends of mine would ride their dirt bikes around town.

Rocky Blondin: 10:26

We lived in a rural part of Langley. You typically didn't worry about police. You were far more concerned about social enforcement. I think that's actually a huge component that's kind of missing today where, if you understand what the social norms are we were more concerned about getting caught by somebody's mom on the dirt bike than we were by the police. Norms are we were more concerned about getting caught by somebody's mom on the dirt bike than we were by the police. And if those social norms are kind of clear, if that scooter is okay on the sidewalk because it's low power, low speed, or if that bike is an e-bike with pedal assist and all the power limits and accepted where it's supposed to go, then it'll be okay. Then people can identify that and be okay with it and, conversely, criticize somebody who's not a pedestrian on the sidewalk and say, hey, you're not supposed to be here, but right now the pedestrian on the sidewalk doesn't know the rules. The RCMP honestly have had a hard time understanding the rules. I've met several officers that aren't clear on the legislation.

Peter Ladner: 11:19

So, rocky, you talk about social norms, but where do these norms come from? Do people, are they expected to be educated in? I don't know school about rules of the road, is it something? There's no driver education or testing because these vehicles are all unlicensed and uninsured. How does somebody learn what they should and shouldn't do?

Rocky Blondin: 11:42

Great question. I'm not a sociologist so I will do a poor job of answering, but in my opinion I see this through parenting and the like and it amounts to a lot of the challenges with youth on these devices, amounts to parents that have purchased them for them and kind of just unlocked them with them and said all right off, you go without any boundaries. And that's not critical of the parents, it's just an observation that social norms you know culturally I mentioned before about. You know I was worried about getting caught by my friend's mom on the dirt bike. You know the parents created that social norm for our teenage community and then we as adults do for each other too.

Rocky Blondin: 12:20

I talk to my friends about oh, you're doing what with your e-bike? Oh, that doesn't sound right. There too I talked to my friends about oh, you're doing what with your e-bike? Oh, that doesn't sound right. And I, you know a sour look on my face will indicate just the emotions contained within and my friend might adjust his behavior. And then if I encounter somebody on the sidewalk and I'm personally doing this trying to have that conversation I did it with a person on a gravel path in a park on an electric motorcycle. This thing looked like a Honda street bike and I had the conversation. It's a tough conversation. It requires me to say hey man, can you stop for a second? I want to talk to you about what you're doing, and what you're doing isn't legal and it's not right. And he refuted it. He didn't agree with my perspective, told me it was an e-bike, told me he was allowed to do it. Told me the RCMP had told him it was okay.

Peter Ladner: 13:02

Do you think that he was just being devious, or did he actually believe all that?

Rocky Blondin: 13:12

I genuinely think he was telling the truth when he said the RCMP accepted what he was doing, because I've heard it myself from RCMP officers.

Peter Ladner: 13:17

Wait, they're okay with people going 80k down the sidewalks on an illegal e-bike.

Rocky Blondin: 13:22

I'd suspect that any RCMP officers that saw that happening would intervene. But this person was just on an electric motorcycle in a city park, traveling at low speeds, so therefore doing something that doesn't appear objectively problematic but is inherently illegal. Because you're riding a motorcycle in a city park If I took my Yamaha in there, it would stop me right away but because this thing has a plate on the back that says e-bike and is powered by a battery, they're acting and reacting differently.

Peter Ladner: 13:51

And was that person riding under 32 k's per hour?

Rocky Blondin: 13:55

Not with any technological enforcement. And that's the thing about an e-bike that is regulated to that speed. It's done through software and through a speed sensor and that device the device that I saw this gentleman on, could do 80, no problem, or more, I bet you. It could go 120.

Peter Ladner: 14:12

So you used to be in the business. I understand. It's not that hard to take the governors off these e-bikes and turn them into real motorcycles.

Rocky Blondin: 14:22

Now that I'm a former retailer, I can say Did you ever do that, Rocky? I've never done that. No, I don't own an e-bike or operate any of these things.

Peter Ladner: 14:29

but Do you know people who've done that?

Rocky Blondin: 14:31

Yes, and it's not hard. Oh, okay, yes, and it's not hard, okay, no, you just have the light of the speed sensor. Not that I'm teaching kids how to do this, but you just have to tell it the information it needs to know, and then you can unlock. Yes.

Peter Ladner: 14:44

So it sounds like the bike retailers are in on this game, like they're making money from selling these illegal e-bikes.

Rocky Blondin: 14:51

I'm glad you asked because I put a lot of thought into this aspect, being a former retailer, so I've heard people say, well, they shouldn't be selling these. They the colloquial they. The retailer is responsible to sell products that comply with the laws, and they're doing that. These aren't illegal devices. There's no law that says you can't sell an e-bike that has a power level. You just can't operate it in certain places. It can go out the door and be ridden on private property and it's legal. So that's, it's not an illegality question at the retail level.

Rocky Blondin: 15:24

And uh, also speaking from a retailer's perspective, it's difficult to make a go of a bike shop these days. Specialty retail is a hard thing to do and so you're going to have a hard time turning down a high margin sale that can help you keep the lights on for the betterment. If you, even if you feel that way and I talked to our bike shop last night at our social ride he agreed. He's like these things are a problem. They're breaking our bike hoists. We can't, they can't facilitate a big e-bike in the shop because they're going to injure their staff. So it it's. It's having these external issues and that's not reconciled in in what's happening.

Peter Ladner: 16:00

So I want to go back to the parents, because you said I asked you a question where would the social norms be imbued in riders? You said well, the parents get in these bikes, they should? I guess it's implicit. They should tell them out of be careful. Here's what you're supposed to do. But a lot of parents probably don't care, or might well they should care, because their kid could die. But let's say they don't even know what the rules are. Who would pass on that knowledge or who would share that knowledge? You said the police don't want to deal with it. I know there's some education at schools, but I don't know how thorough that is.

Rocky Blondin: 16:35

Speaking, I got two school-aged children. I don't think there's a lot of this being talked about. When I went through school, we had a bike rodeo. I learned my hand signals in grade four and they still hold true today, and they don't have that education in schools anymore.

Peter Ladner: 16:51

Well, that's not quite true. I know hub cycling has been paid by the province to go and do that in grades three and four in certain schools in certain cities or towns around the province.

Rocky Blondin: 17:00

I was just about to say we as an external group have gone in to do this, but it's not curriculum, it's not like an element of a given piece of a program. It's if a teacher is interested, they can contact the local advocacy group, like hub, like the Community Cycling Coalition, and we will then go and do some of this stuff. Yeah, now.

Peter Ladner: 17:21

I know you've been talking to other organizations about this elsewhere in the province. What's the discussion and what solutions have you come up with?

Rocky Blondin: 17:30

and so that that came from. On the mountain bike side, we saw impacts on trails. We're seeing these electric dirt bikes. They're tearing up the trails and we were really upset about that locally. Uh, we kind of reached out to other stakeholders in the province and found out the it's happening everywhere in varying amounts. The worst was in Kamloops. We came to learn they had a real bad case of the electric mobility blues, um, damaging public facilities, a really bad accident with two kids on these things that got maimed. So it was really rampant there and so we talked about okay, well, we all identify what the problem is. And to your point now, what? What's the solution For us? On the trail side, we're talking to provincial land managers talking about they've established the legal regulations for what an e-bike is an e-bike and what isn't, but it's not clear and it's not clearly marked.

Peter Ladner: 18:21

So we want to improve, improve signage, things like that so at the entrance to a trail, I would say non-legal e-bikes only, or limited to something or other exactly, and I've seen elements of this down in places like in arizona on trails.

Rocky Blondin: 18:35

So here we're looking to do more of that where we make it clear what is and isn't acceptable. You know, 32 kilometers an hour, 500 watts, that's it, no throttles. And then hikers reading that sign can see something that's breaking those rules and say something. If you see something, say something. And now if they know the rules, that'll help.

Peter Ladner: 18:55

So we're looking to improve kind of that social and real enforcement, although in the forest real enforcement's few and far between you're suggesting that the enforcement in off road it pretty much has to be by peers and other people out in the trail. There's not going to be some park warden or police officer wandering around giving out tickets no, those people do exist.

Rocky Blondin: 19:14

There's jobs within BC Parks and Rec Sites and Trails that do enforcement, but there's so few in number covering so much area, they'll never solve this problem. We're asking for that. We're also asking and this is the piece I think super important is, we can get a government, either the federal or provincial government, to make changes to what's legal for sale. Because you asked about is it the retailer's fault? No, is it the manufacturer's fault? No, still complying with the laws, although many bike companies aren't. By the way, they're putting stickers on that are lying because they say it's 250 watts power and it's not, because they advertise a torque number that's way in excess of that. And torque and power are correlated through RPM, like it's just formulas. And so if somebody was enforcing the manufacturers to put real numbers on these things, then it would have a decal that states what it is. That would be a step.

Rocky Blondin: 20:08

But what I'm proposing and advocating for provincially is that they make it very clear what's safe and legal. So on the e-scooter side, they've made a designation for a 25-kilometer-an-hour limit and a power limit I think it's 250 watts, but I'm not 100% certain and that's in the province's proposed legislation that the city of Mission, as one example, is chewing on ratifying here locally. If they did that, that's great. But how do you know something's compliant? It needs a big green sticker on it. Shiny can't peel it off. This thing is cool and it can ride on a sidewalk and it can be operated by a teenager. That's okay. Everything else you see doesn't have a sticker. Good, it's not okay. And, like you were talking about in the UK, that'll make it really clear to start dealing with these things, confiscating them. If it's on a sidewalk, take it away.

Peter Ladner: 20:55

That's one thing that could happen, but the other part of it would be if it's not a legal e-bike, it should be licensed and insured, correct, both on and off-road. Yeah, is that going to happen? Does that ever happen?

Rocky Blondin: 21:10

That would require enforcement. On-road. You've got licensing, but you do have then federal Transport Canada regulations you have to comply with for a road vehicle. You have to have headlights, turn signals, all the stuff that say a motorcycle would have, and then it would have to be safety rated. So I don't know if there's a legal path to getting an e-bike to become a motor vehicle. I'd suspect not, but that's plausible. On the off-road side I can say that an e-bike that exceeds the power levels of a Class 1 e-bike can absolutely ride on dirt bike trails. That's fully okay, and they would just have to get an ORB plate just like a dirt bike.

Peter Ladner: 21:44

Okay, I wanted to talk for a moment about rentals, because there's a lot of e-bike, shared e-bikes, now shared scooters. People rent them and I have heard stories about kids getting on these bikes. I know from when I used to ride a motorcycle that the first 10 rides or something are that, whereas 80% of the serious accidents occur. People start to get a little false confidence and then they get stupid and they don't know what they're doing and off down they go. Um, is there anything that the renters people who are like the charity bikes or e-scooters is there any qualifiers for? If you want to pick one up, do you have to know anything about how to ride one of these things? Does anybody caution you not to go too fast or watch out for those big potholes with those tiny wheels, or whatever?

Rocky Blondin: 22:34

yeah, having rented. I've rented public e-bikes in Vancouver. It was a wonderful experience. My son and I bombed around downtown and had a great day. I think if you enforce and have that power limit and that speed limit, then you're also restricting the risk here that I think inherently comes with it when you learn to ride a motorcycle. I was given the advice that I stuck to to get a small one and I did, and now I've got a very big one and that's all fine and well. Um, but I didn't learn on that. And if you keep the power levels low, it keeps the weight low. That's the thing about a small motorcycle and a small e-bike is it's gonna have limited mass and therefore limited risk to others. If you crash into somebody with a 48 pound bike, it's probably not gonna do too much damage. If you crash into somebody with a 48-pound bike, it's probably not going to do too much damage. If you crash into somebody with a 120-pound thing, with a 200-pound rider there's a lot there and it's going to be a lot worse.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

And there's not just the physical damage. I know UBC researchers presented at our last AT conference the results of a study where they asked people for their perception of danger and discomfort in a bike. Separate a bike lane from different types of vehicles that are going by. And the one that was off the charts for discomfort and perceived danger and perhaps real danger was these false e-bikes that are actually motorcycles that are going so fast. So even if they're not actually hitting people, they're rattling people and maybe keeping them from wanting to go out in those bike lanes themselves.

Rocky Blondin: 24:00

Yeah, I see a version of that on the trails. When you're riding a mountain bike and ascending, so going uphill, you're moving pretty slow. You've got high gearing, except if you're on an e-bike, and so, as somebody on a regular bike is going uphill and then gets passed by an e-bike that can be doing 30 kilometers an hour uphill while I'm, you know, going eight, it's, it's upsetting, it's to the whoa, what's that? You get startled, yeah, and it does. It does take away from the experience, but that's a bit subjective. Um, the bike lane side, I could absolutely see that. It's that speed, delta, right, that's. What's upsetting is if you're moving at 10 kilometers an hour and something else is moving at 50, it's a lot to process. And if it's in close quarters I've seen those videos of semi-trucks passing people on bikes that are kind of being exposed to that risk and getting startled by it. As an avid cyclist, it's terrifying.

Peter Ladner: 24:50

Well, in some ways, this is a great problem to have. We've got more people out on active transportation, We've got kids actually moving around and getting exercise and not depending on their parents to drive them. We've got less congestion. We've got cleaner air all those good things. So I don't want to make it sound like this is all horrible, but it's pretty clear from talking to you that there are some issues that have to be dealt with.

Rocky Blondin: 25:13

I agree with exactly what you said. The three things that I kind of uh capture this with is electric mobility has been a blessing. Um, the two blessings I mainly see are democratized cycling. It really kind of makes it accessible. You could flatten hills. When I used to sell e-bikes I'd say, hey, push this button, the hill's gone and so now you can ride a hill so much easier. I love when I see a 70 year old grandfather riding out with his 20 year old grandson, like, and they, they can do the same trails together. What a, what an amazing thing and the husbands and wives too.

Peter Ladner: 25:46

Whichever one is the weaker rider gets to come along and stay and keep up I've experienced that exactly with my wife.

Rocky Blondin: 25:53

Yeah, we did e-bikes and it was the great equalizer, even though she's a very good cyclist. What it did is it just created a leveled up playing field. So, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it also provides motorized mobility at a fraction of the energy. So like, if you go to run errands in your car, you're talking about 75 kilowatts. You can do the same thing on something like this for 0.75 kilowatts. So you can do the same thing on something like this for 0.75 kilowatts. So we're 100x less energy and for a sustainable future, we have to reduce our energy load like this. It's just the way we have to go. So we've got the blessing.

Rocky Blondin: 26:26

Prior to this, you and I have talked about the curses, which are the other side of the coin. We're learning about the unintended consequences. They're dodging and weaving and they wear things out. Mostly, tires and trails like the tires wear out faster on these machines at a bike shop. They're going through. They're consuming more resources. It takes energy to do something as well as put the tires on everything.

Rocky Blondin: 26:47

And then the first thing out of an e-motor. It's created. This gray area this is the huge problem is now the first thing out of an e-motorcycle when they get caught doing something they shouldn't be is it's an e-bike, so that's, you know, part of the curse. And so the third thing is I look at the future, and the future is we can change the regulations. We've got some Like there's transportation regulations that exist. They just need to be modernized.

Rocky Blondin: 27:12

The policy being proposed here in Mission, that's a provincial policy. I think it's okay. It restricts to 16 years old for e-scooters and I don't think that's fair. I see 12-year-olds out on these things. That's awesome. This is better than them getting driven around in a car. They can and should be on a power and speed limited one. There's nothing wrong with that. But if it does 80 kilometers an hour, I don't put my 12-year-old on a motorcycle for a reason that's not going to end well.

Rocky Blondin: 27:38

So we can update the rules. We can make enforcement both legal and social enforcement easier to do with better indications. This thing's legal, this one's not, because as soon as there's a motor involved, it's a gray area. But let's clear up that gray area. Big green sticker, just like the eok for the hov lane for your electric car right. Big green sticker, eok in this bike lane, and then this can make it all sustainable. Then we can have, uh, the right things in the right places and be responsible with the use and the one thing you didn't mention was affordability too like, and freedom too.

Peter Ladner: 28:14

Those kids can now get around on their own, they've got agency in their own lives, and parents don't have to have numbers of cars and pay for all those trips. So it's a future we'd all love to see, but we've just got to figure out this thorn in the it's all roses future of e-bikes yeah, the last thing that, as a former retailer, I'll throw out is, um, that I.

Rocky Blondin: 28:42

I think the right to repair would be an important element here too. Um, a lot of these e-devices are being sold by websites, so e-commerce only, or, say, a big box retailer. You can go down to your local Walmart, for example, and get an electric mobility device, an e-scooter or an e-bike. You can get them at Best Buy even, and so that's all fine and well. You can't get it fixed there, and so what then ends up happening is that thing, a part, fails, they bring it to their local bike shop. They would bring it to me, and I can't get the part because there's no supply chain for it to me, and I can't get the part because there's no supply chain for it. I can't go to Best Buy to get a motor. So now they spent $2,000 on this thing, that the motor failed and it turned into a pumpkin. So I am of the opinion that if you can't fix these things, you can't sell them.

Peter Ladner: 29:25

Now does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed to sell something with a sealed box or with no parts? Or does it mean you're just advising people only go and get one at a bike store where they'll be able to fix it because they'll have parts, because it's a brand name?

Rocky Blondin: 29:40

My advice to anybody thinking of getting something like this is exactly that that go somewhere that can't be fixed, because then the part supply is available. I mean, if you do buy them online, typically there is a part supply there, but then you're fully in DIY country. You line, typically there is a parts supply there, but then you're fully in diy country. You don't have a local resource that can help you for a flat tire, dewire the motor, because sometimes you have to take all the wires out just to change a flat tire. Yeah, and it's um like. I talked to the bike shop last night. They did one tire on one e-scooter and they'll never do another one, because it was 14 bolts and wiring to get the wheel off, and now they inherit that liability, so they're not interested. So now you've got how do you fix it? You get a flat tire. That's, that's simple. That can happen now what wow?

Rocky Blondin: 30:21

so I think if you're going to sell them as a retailer, you should have the capacity to repair them. You don't have to take it there for repair. But if you aren't fixing them, then there you're creating a waste stream that then can't be fixed, and then this is just more batteries and more motors and more wheels into the world that just get thrown away because of flat tire or less.

Peter Ladner: 30:41

And if you're a prospective buyer, beware of the lure of the cheap online price or the ones in the lineup at, let's say, london Drugs, where they used to put them as an impulse buy in the lineup and support your local bike dealer, who's probably, as you said, struggling a little bit. Drugs, where they used to put them in the as an impulse buy in the lineup and but and support your local bike dealer, who's probably, as you said, struggling a little bit and needs the business and will be able to serve you better than the online cheap one I agree with that.

Rocky Blondin: 31:04

I will say and I used to tell my customers this not all big box bikes are created equal. They do sell some good ones too. That's not all bad, but they have the capacity to sell some really bad ones, versus that local bike shop typically will sell something that they can stand behind because they've got to fix it. It's going to show up eventually, come back with a brake adjustment. So they want something they can get parts for and it's not a nightmare.

Peter Ladner: 31:27

Rocky, how close are we to the green sticker?

Rocky Blondin: 31:31

Zero On a scale of one to ten. I'll go one because the idea is conceived, but I'm just getting out to a point. We had a provincial meeting on the trail side, um when you say provincial meeting, who comes to these meetings?

Rocky Blondin: 31:44

so the outdoor recreation council of british columbia, um, the who else was there? The mountain bike tourism association and then a couple of us as local trail advocates and we're having a zoom call on all right, this is a problem provincially. What are we going to do about it? We're talking about going to the ubcm and making some awareness there. Um, and so the green sticker idea is something I conceived as a response to that social enforcement thing.

Rocky Blondin: 32:08

And I think local places, a municipality or a trail association like the one I could volunteer for or that I do volunteer for, they could do that. Our city could be inspecting these devices and say, yeah, look, that's one that's compliant, it's speed limited, it's power limited, here's your decal. And then they're good to go. And our trail association could do the same thing. Hey, that's a pedal-assist e-bike, it's not going to hurt the trails thing. Hey, that's a pedal assist e-bike, it's not going to hurt the trails. Here's your sticker, your e-bike approved. So these are something we can do as a grassroots initiative to create that social enforcement. These laws don't hold water legally, but they're.

Peter Ladner: 32:41

They're that social piece, and then, ideally, the province or the federal government can do this at a manufacturer's level I love that you uh have so much confidence in social norms and peer enforcement and people looking out for the situation and just being good citizens, because it would be lovely if that would be a widespread practice and perhaps even solve this problem.

Rocky Blondin: 33:07

I'll say that comes from being in the forest. That's much more commonplace on the trails. That's where this whole notion came, because from 20 years of being a trail advocate I've noticed that the norms are socially created. There's no legal enforcement around, there's zero. So here in the urban setting you do have police to enforce things but, as I've been told by their management, they've got bigger fish to fry, so it's kind of being left to us anyways fish to fry, so it's kind of being left to us.

Peter Ladner: 33:36

Anyways, rocky, thanks so much for telling us all these stories and educating us to these problems and so on. Is there anything else you want to add?

Rocky Blondin: 33:41

I think we've covered the gamut. I'm really grateful A for your podcast, sharing this wisdom of all your guests, and I'm grateful to have this opportunity to talk about something I see as important. The thing I want to get in front of the tragedy I'm trying to stop is if an e-scooter with a youth on it gets hit by a car and killed, we'll see a reaction that kid's parents will react. There'll be a new law I call it Jimmy's Law but it's going to be a knee-jerk reaction to a real big tragedy and we can avoid that if we get in front of this, if we create the regulations. We have these discussions.

Peter Ladner: 34:20

Well, let's stay in touch and anything the BC Cycling Coalition could do to help you along, we'd be happy to do that. We're trying to get the RCMP to come out, the Highway Patrol to come out to our conference in Kimberley on September 10th to 12th to talk about their view of enforcement. The issue that we would, of course, want to raise with them was that safe passing distance enforcement and other things, but generally safety for vulnerable road users from whatever dangers are out there cars and trucks more particularly, obviously, but also, uh, bad cyclists and bad machinery, that excess power that's being used irresponsibly.

Rocky Blondin: 34:55

Yeah, ultimately, anything that exceeds the power levels. I call them for what they are they're motorcycles and these are motorcyclists. I'm a motorcyclist and therefore I'm advocating for people to be safe motorcyclists and respect everybody else.

Peter Ladner: 35:08

Thanks, rocky, great talking with you. Thank you, great talking with you. Thank you. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

What does it take to transform a car-dependent small town into a place where cycling feels safe and accessible? Ruth Lloyd is finding out firsthand in Williams Lake, BC.

As a returning resident to her hometown, Ruth experienced the stark contrast between places where active transportation was normalized, and her pickup-truck dominated community where, as in many small cities or towns, the highway consititutes Main Street. Rather than accepting the status quo, she co-founded Streets for All Williams Lake and began methodically building support for cycling infrastructure through creative advocacy.

Ruth's approach blends journalistic storytelling with strategies such as lending an e-bike to the mayor to bring him onside. Now she's tackling an even bigger obstacle: provincial highways that create barriers within communities. 

Find out more about Streets For All Williams Lake HERE.

Release Date: August 19, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. We've all heard how small groups of dedicated people are the real agents of change in the world. Today's guest, in my opinion, is one of those people. Ruth Lloyd is a journalist in Williams Lake who seems to have unlimited energy to campaign for safer cycling in her community. I invited her on the podcast not just because I too, used to be a journalist in small town BC, but because I was bowled over by a few of her initiatives that really seemed to be moving the dial in Williams Lake. Today we're going to talk about those. Welcome, Ruth.

Ruth Lloyd: 1:08

Hi Peter, Thanks for having me. I feel like one of those people on the radio, a long-time listener, first-time caller.

Peter Ladner: 1:16

Well, I introduced you as a journalist, but that doesn't explain to me how you got into being an activist for cycling in Williams Lake. Can you tell us how that happened, how long have you lived there and what prompted you to get active?

Ruth Lloyd: 1:31

Well, I'm actually from Williams Lake originally. I grew up here and you know I was kind of born into the I don't know driving culture of Williams Lake. I took it for granted that driving was how you had to get around, though I did spend my childhood riding my bicycle around my neighborhood. That's how I spent my evenings and I loved it.

Ruth Lloyd: 1:54

And then I got away from it. And then I just moved away for university, lived other places and when I came back here it felt like Williams Lake was on the right track. And then I moved away again and I lived in a place where everything was close. I was walking and cycling to all my errands and then I moved back and wondered why can't we do that here?

Peter Ladner: 2:20

Do you have a vehicle? Do you have a F-150? Do you have a vehicle? Do you?

Ruth Lloyd: 2:23

have an F-150?. Oh well, we actually. Yes, I have a vehicle. I live a little bit out of town from the downtown and we have 20 acres, so we have a truck and we have another vehicle, but I prefer to bicycle if I can.

Peter Ladner: 2:41

Do you bicycle into work?

Ruth Lloyd: 2:43

Yes, I do.

Peter Ladner: 2:45

And then what happened?

Ruth Lloyd: 2:50

You discovered that it wasn't what it ought to be. Yeah, there's only a short stretch of highway that I have to take and then I can kind of get on side streets and go different ways. But I'd been living these other places where I was just so used to acting like a car, as you're supposed to able to move with traffic and kind of take it for granted that you could follow the rules and feel okay doing that. But unfortunately here drivers aren't used to seeing bikes on the road and acting in that way, and I had a lot of really negative experiences that left me wishing for safer infrastructure and I found myself breaking the rules way more than I normally would to make myself feel safer.

Peter Ladner: 3:36

What do you mean by breaking the rules?

Ruth Lloyd: 3:38

Riding on the sidewalk, having to sometimes take, yeah, just kind of choosing my route in a way that wouldn't you know, I'm kind of making connections via sidewalks and some other things that aren't necessarily how you're supposed to do it.

Peter Ladner: 3:58

Well, on a more positive note, you did a program with some of your counselors where you got them onto bikes to have that same experience. Tell us how that worked and what happened.

Ruth Lloyd: 4:12

Yeah, it was really great. It was in 2023, and we got a grant from Emotive BC and we do these electric vehicle grants, and so they opened it up that year for e-bikes as well. And so they opened it up that year for e-bikes as well and we thought that it would be really great to try and show people. It was kind of a combination you not only get to show your elected officials some of the experience of riding a bike in your community, but you also get to highlight how much an e-bike is an advantage in an area like ours.

Ruth Lloyd: 4:48

We have a lot of hills. We're in a valley, so it's really advantageous. Once you have an e-bike, you flatten out those hills and basically anyone can get around without, you know, getting too sweaty and out of breath. And we actually didn't just do councillors. We had our mayor, we had MLA Lauren Dirksen, our local provincial representative. We had some different leaders from community groups. We even had the Citizens on Patrol, community policing leader, lead our parade. He does a lot of work at the parade. Thousands of people come down to watch it and we had him out there riding around to do his work for the parade on e-bike to show off its advantages.

Peter Ladner: 5:40

So you managed to get an e-bike from somewhere with this grant and then you offered it to these people for 48 hours or something, or how did it work?

Ruth Lloyd: 6:05

He had it for. He didn't want to give it back actually, but he had it for over a week. He took it to City Hall for City Hall meetings, parked it right in the room in the chambers while they were meeting and he brought it to his gurdwara for his Sunday at the temple and then he yeah, he took it on rides. We would try and escort them on a ride so that we could film them. So at least part of the demonstration was filming them riding the bike and then we could do social media posts around it to help raise awareness. And some counselors or users just wanted to have it and then take some rides and they wanted to do their own videos. So it varied actually, but we worked in partnership with two local bike shops and they helped us out with Lampus.

Peter Ladner: 6:57

Were some or most of these people first time e-bike riders.

Ruth Lloyd: 7:03

I think it was probably two thirds or so. We actually did a dozen different community leaders on these bikes, so we had the M. Our MLA learned Dirksen. He had it. That was his first e-bike ride and he had it, for I think he had that bike for four days maybe. And he had it for I think he had that bike for four days maybe. And yeah, our mayor, he hadn't. He'd grown up riding a bike in India and then he came to Williams Lake in the 70s when he moved to Canada and he hadn't ridden a bike the whole time he lived here, and so then he got on this bike and he said it made him feel like a kid again. It was really fun.

Peter Ladner: 7:46

Oh, nice to hear it Now. You have also been very active in promoting I don't know whether I should say initiating getting an active transportation plan done for Williams Lake. Tell us about that.

Ruth Lloyd: 8:03

Yeah, I definitely can't take all the credit. We've had this amazing active transportation working group that was formed through the city transportation working group that was formed through the city. We were asking for the city to kind of lead something like an active transportation committee or working group. To look at that, because our city had had one in the past and so we wanted them to revive it and when they got that group together they were amazing. Everyone on that group is, you know, we have this passionate team and some of those people.

Ruth Lloyd: 8:34

We were out canvassing for people to fill out the survey during all the engagement sessions and we had the most responses on the survey that the city had ever seen and just really worked hard and so much input and positive engagement. It's been really great. We had, you know, quite a good turnout for our live in-person engagement session with the planners. It was really positive. But yeah, we just started asking for the city to apply for the provincial funding to do a transportation active transportation network plan and we had this great person at the city who was staff at the time. She applied. She's no longer with the city, so then it kind of was on pause. We kept kind of pushing and then they hired a consultant to kind of help move it forward again. And then urban systems came in and did the project and they did a great job.

Peter Ladner: 9:40

So it was definitely a team effort now you mentioned an active transportation advisor group or council or something, but when you say we are you part of an association. Do you have your own cycling advocacy society or organization, or is it just random citizens getting together?

Ruth Lloyd: 9:58

So the Active Transportation Working Group is a group that has a bunch of different stakeholders and I personally represent and one of the members of that group, but I'm also a representative from Streets for All, Williams Lake, which is the advocacy group that my friend and I co-founded.

Peter Ladner: 10:19

Streets for All Williams Lake. So that active transportation plan has passed. Is it now an official plan?

Ruth Lloyd: 10:27

Yeah, so the city has adopted it and it is part of the city's yeah active transportation. Well, it is the city's. They paid for it because it was partly paid for through a provincial grant that they applied for and then the city had to check in as well. So it's the city's active transportation network plan. They've adopted it and now they are currently working on a official community plan review and we're hoping that that will be integrated into it, so it will basically be embedded in ACP going forward.

Peter Ladner: 11:07

Now you haven't stopped at Williams Lake because I know that you've been involved in some way in a motion from I think it's one of your counselors to the North Central Local Government Association asking for the Ministry of Transportation and Transit to take the lead on active transportation infrastructure on highway rights-of-way. First of all, what is the North Central Local Government Association?

Ruth Lloyd: 11:37

So the local governments in the province have different groups and North Central Local Government Association is the group representing local governments within the kind of northern half. In fact, geographically Williams Lake is not actually quite in the north but definitely fit into that demographic. So the North Central Local Government Association gets together and has a summit every year. Local leaders get together, talk about issues in the north and then a lot of those issues will then be brought forward to the Union of BC Municipalities Conference which happens every year in the fall. So that's all of the local government leaders meeting with provincial leaders every year.

Peter Ladner: 12:34

And you brought a motion. Tell us what the motion is.

Ruth Lloyd: 12:37

So one of the big barriers in a lot of communities, and absolutely especially in the north and central parts of the province, is the highway infrastructure, and so these highways comprise major throughfares. Sometimes they're the main streets of town, sometimes they create. In Williams Lake, we have Highway 20 and Highway 97, which divide different sections of our community and because those are provincial infrastructure, they cannot be changed by the municipality. So, even though we've got this active transportation network plan, we want to create a more safe, connected active transportation network that's going to help everyone get around, safely access all the amazing things we have, like our crazy, awesome mountain bike trails. But unfortunately they're all divided by these highways and the highways create major barriers, like in Williams Lake.

Ruth Lloyd: 13:45

Highway 20 is a separation between the west side of the community and the main downtown and the north side, so we've got mountain bike networks on the west side and the south side that you would need to use Highway 20 to get to if you were going to get there by bicycle, but most people feel very unsafe using that and unfortunately the city can't change that. The province has to leave that. We're asking for the province to take the lead on putting in active transportation infrastructure within those highway right-of-ways within municipalities have you tried a direct ask to the regional ministry official saying let's do this?

Peter Ladner: 14:36

Do they have the power to put some active transportation infrastructure alongside or related to the highway right away?

Ruth Lloyd: 14:47

Well, theoretically that would be who would do it, but they're not doing and I don't know why it's not being implemented. In terms of previously, the province had set a mandate the ministry of transportation it was the ministry of transportation infrastructure at the time for active transportation infrastructure to be a priority, but regionally we didn't really see that play out and there wasn't any follow-through in terms of creating, you know, ensuring that paving is happening, that ensures good, wide shoulders that are kept clean for active transportation, just minor things that would really enable it. But the counselor at the meeting with the city had just been discussing the active transportation network plan. The city was saying you know, we put all this money into it. This councillor said we've got this plan. How are we going to make sure that, you know, these highways don't continue to be this major obstacle for us? And maybe we should put a resolution forward, and so she drafted this resolution.

Ruth Lloyd: 16:05

It's Councillor Joan Flasspuller and she drafted this resolution. She's talked to the local representatives and so she has a better understanding of what the local ministry of transportation representatives can and can't do, what their barriers are, and so I think she was hoping to try and get that kind of push from the province, provincial level, to try and get everyone to say, look, these are basically our main streets. You know, you've got Townsend Burns, like we've got 14 June, you've got Houston, you've got all these. You know, chatwin, these are places where the highway is straight through the community and, you know, creates this major obstacle that really limits people in feeling safe, this major obstacle that really limits people in feeling safe.

Peter Ladner: 17:01

So you came to the conclusion that it would much help your local manager to have direction from on high to make this happen, and I would confidently say that this is the feeling of many, many communities in BC who feel frustrated. Some of them seem to depend on the passion of that local manager for cycling or not for cycling, which is a kind of a flimsy basis for building out AT infrastructure around the province. And we often hear that if there's a passion from the minister or the senior officials in the ministry that send down the ranks, that it will enable people to do this a lot more. So good luck with that and I hope it gets to the UBCM which I think is in September in Victoria this year, and the BC Cycling Coalition would like to be there.

Ruth Lloyd: 17:48

Yeah, the City of Williams Lake is going to put that resolution, a resolution forward that basically asks the province to take the leap and help make sure that active transportation infrastructure is being integrated into these municipalities. When you've got the highway going through town going through a pandemic.

Peter Ladner: 18:10

But you obviously felt that having that request amplified by support from all the other municipalities in that local government association would be helpful. So you've done that interim step. Has it gone to that association? Have they approved it?

Ruth Lloyd: 18:25

My understanding is it was passed and now and that's hopefully going to spur something in the province. But you can only try and hopefully the province will start to listen.

Peter Ladner: 18:40

So you've been doing this for several years? How many years now in Williams Lake?

Ruth Lloyd: 18:45

Well, I moved back here in 2020. And I guess we started now. I think we might have started Space for L Williams Lake in 2022.

Peter Ladner: 18:59

So let's say you've been doing this for three years. How are you feeling? Are you making you feel like you're making progress, that it's worth it, that you're going to get somewhere in the end?

Ruth Lloyd: 19:11

Oh, this is such a good question. I mean, what advocate doesn't have days where they're what am I doing? Is this even making any difference? And other days you think, oh man, this is so exciting. I mean, there's been great, great community building that's resulted, and I think that that matters. We might not have seen any actual difference in terms of there's no bike lanes happening yet, but we have. You know, we we've done a lot of things that I think have helped up the profile. I think that the response the community gave to the city you know we had over 700 people respond to our serving and that was the most the city's ever had so, um, it was, yeah, really satisfying to see that happen, and I think that the city's now has heard that this is something people want to see, especially with the mountain biking culture. Young people are out riding the trails and then parents want to know that if their kid wants to go for a mountain bike ride and they drop them off at the top of the trail, they can ride back to their house safely.

Peter Ladner: 20:30

So have you been working with the mountain? Does the mountain biking people have their own association?

Ruth Lloyd: 20:36

They do. They're the Williams Lake Cycling Club and yeah, they. You know we've tried to try and communicate and support what they're doing and they've tried to support some of what we're doing. And you know we have definitely a parallel interest on that and you know we have definitely a parallel interest on that.

Peter Ladner: 20:54

Well, speaking of parallel interest, you are coming to our Regional Active Transportation Summit in Kimberley on September 11th and 12th and you're going to be having an opportunity there for people who want to talk about getting their communities more motivated. So do you have any thoughts?

Ruth Lloyd: 21:22

Can you share any more about that and what you hope to come out of that?

Ruth Lloyd: 21:27

Yeah well, I'm really excited to get down there and get together again with all the people who are excited about active transportation.

Ruth Lloyd: 21:32

It's really just so rewarding to share knowledge and meet people who are doing the same things or similar things and share information. And when I went to the one that was last year, it was that New West it was amazing, it was so great. But I really felt like I wanted to be able to connect more with other advocates, because we just started this group in williams lake, we didn't necessarily know what we're doing. We just wanted to try and support safer cycling and safer active transportation for everyone, and I guess I was hoping to to try and connect with with more advocates, and so we wanted to create a an opportunity at this summit to just share some of what people have have done, what they've learned, their successes, their challenges and how we can kind of support each other to amplify our messages. When we're doing things like this Maybe CM resolution, for example, and other ECCC you know initiatives that they're trying to do on a provincial level how can we all kind of work together to that ship?

Peter Ladner: 22:53

well, that's a pretty good question and I don't think we're going to answer right away, except if you can make it. I'm speaking now to people listening. If they can make it to the conference september 11th, you can sign up at the bc cycling coalition website. Our early bird tickets for those listening to this podcast in July may still be available. Ruth, thank you so much for doing the podcast and for the work you're doing and setting an example, if I might say, for others to emulate and maybe get an AT plan in their community, maybe get an actual expanded continuous bike route network. That will light up the community and let people have fun and have more choices of how they get around other than that wonderful pickup truck that you own. Thanks, ruth.

Ruth Lloyd: 23:45

Oh, now I'm pegged as the pickup truck owner. Well, guess what?

Peter Ladner: 23:48

I own a vehicle too, so that's fine.

Ruth Lloyd: 23:52

Well and it's one of those things. We you know, so many of us, I think grew up riding our bikes in our neighborhoods, and you just see less and less of that in North America now, and it would be so lovely to ensure that you know younger generations are going to be able to have that choice and have that opportunity, because I think it's very transformative.

Peter Ladner: 24:15

We're all working on that. Thanks, Ruth.

Ruth Lloyd: 24:17

Thank you.

Peter Ladner: 24:26

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At peterladner at bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member. Thank you.

Transportation Engineer Allan Kindrat's groundbreaking work on the Cycle 16 multi-use path connecting Smithers and Telkwa recently earned a Gold Award from the Planning Institute of BC, recognizing two decades of persistent community advocacy finally bearing fruit.

The project represents a watershed moment for active transportation in BC. What began as a grassroots initiative championed by the Cycle 16 Trail Society has evolved into something much bigger – the first major project taken over by the Ministry of Transportation and Transit under their new Active Transportation Capital Program. With $85 million allocated across approximately 11 projects province-wide, this represents an unprecedented commitment to building dedicated cycling and pedestrian infrastructure within highway corridors. This ministerial involvement sets a promising precedent for similar initiatives across BC, including the Connect the Coast Society's efforts on the Sunshine Coast, where Kindrat now serves as project manager. Get your how-to's here!

Release Date: August 08, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show.

Peter Ladner: 0:37

As we all know, the expansion of active transportation depends heavily on safe infrastructure, and outside the denser urban areas of our province that usually means multi-use paths on longer routes that serve local commuters, recreation and, with luck, tourists. Many of them are on Ministry of Transportation and Transit rights of way. Some of them are on old rail beds, and building such routes, as we've covered on this podcast, requires First Nations buy-in, usually millions of dollars of provincial and regional funding, years of work, community advocacy, political will, but all eventually require a project manager who can actually build them. Alan Kindrat is such a person. He's a senior transportation engineer at WSP Canada and he lives with his family an extended family in Smithers where he stick-handled the construction of Cycle 16 route to Telqua, and we're going to ask him about that and other projects he's working on and just how to get these things done. Welcome, Alan.

Allan Kindrat: 1:42

Thanks, Peter. I'm excited to be here to chat with you about all the exciting work happening in the province right now.

Peter Ladner: 1:49

Well, I know your recent excitement was you just won an award for your work in Smithers. Can you tell us about?

Allan Kindrat: 1:54

that, yeah, we worked with the Regional District of Bulkley-Nachako, who is the regional district in our area, is the regional district in our area connecting the communities of Smithers and Telqua, on a application for the award earlier this year and just last month we were down in Vancouver to receive the award. It was a gold award for excellence in planning practice in small and rural areas and Cycle 16, the regional district and WSP received the award. So it was really exciting to see the work that we've done being recognized by the Planning Institute of BC.

Peter Ladner: 2:38

What was special about that work, besides the fact that it actually got done?

Allan Kindrat: 2:44

Well, there are a lot of things about Cycle 16 that are special. It spans three local governments, so the town of Smithers, the regional district of Bulkley-Nachako and the village of Telqua. So it took a lot of coordination and it was a project that was championed by a nonprofit cycle 16 trail society. Um, really, for for over 20 years, from the time it was conceived, uh, as an idea to to when the first phase of the project was built. So it, uh it did not happen overnight, but it has been extremely successful. It's been really kind of the honor of my lifetime to be a part of the project.

Peter Ladner: 3:34

Describe what's happening there right now. We're recording this right after Canada Day. Were you out there on Canada Day? Were there lots of people out there? How is it working?

Allan Kindrat: 3:43

Were you out there on Canada Day? Were there? Lots of people out there. How is it working? Yeah, maybe I'll back up just a moment and give a bit of an overview of Cycle 16, if that makes sense.

Allan Kindrat: 4:01

The project was led by the Trail Society for a number of years. The project was originally planned to be three phases, which were all within the regional district of Bulkley-Nachako's municipal boundaries, but as the project evolved over time it became a five-phase project because the town of Smithers needed to incorporate a connecting trail to it, and likewise for the village of Telqua. In 2020, the first phase of the cycle 16 project was funded and in 2023 construction on that was complete. And that was a pretty pivotal moment for the project because it was no longer just an idea. It was something tangible that people could actually go out and ride.

Allan Kindrat: 4:47

Just last month, the next phase of the project was opened to the public and that's the Town of Smithers piece. So we've now got two operational phases of the five-phase project and last year the Ministry of Transportation actually took over the project. So it was a project that was being led by Cycle 16, with the regional district and other local governments agreeing to own and operate the pieces within their municipal boundaries. But last year the ministry announced a new funding program, the BC Active Transportation Capital Program, and they selected Cycle 16 as one of their projects that would be funded under this program.

Peter Ladner: 5:29

Alan, I just want to get clear. This sounds like a pretty big breakthrough for the ministry. Can you tell us how much of a precedent this sets and how that is being seen in other places?

Allan Kindrat: 5:42

Yeah, so the Ministry of Transportation and Transit's Active Transportation Capital Program that was announced last year, to my understanding, is the first of its kind, not only in BC but also nationwide. I was at the Transportation Association of Canada's conference last fall, and there was a lot of interest from transportation ministries in other provinces in what BC is doing here, and so I believe that they're viewed as a national leader in active transportation capital projects. So not only is the province building and expanding their highway network, but they're now committing substantial money to building out active transportation corridors in their highway rights-of-way.

Peter Ladner: 6:29

Does that mean new highway projects will automatically have multi-use paths or corridors involved in that project, or does that mean taking existing highways and adding multi-use paths?

Allan Kindrat: 6:45

It won't mean automatically that new highways get multi-use paths, but I believe that there has been a policy within the ministry for a number of years now that any major highway expansion looks closely at including active transportation elements. But the capital program is specifically for active transportation projects within their highway corridor and so they are standalone projects, such as the Cycle 16 project, and they're not necessarily just multi-use paths. They can be protected bike lanes, they can be other forms of active transportation infrastructure, but multi-use paths are what we're seeing most commonly, connecting communities.

Peter Ladner: 7:25

So if other communities are planning on doing something like this, is this where they should eventually aim to have the ministry take over these projects.

Allan Kindrat: 7:34

Yeah, that's a very interesting question. Working closely with Cycle 16 over the years, we all believed that this was something that should be the Ministry of Transportation and Transit's responsibility. The multi-use path is within the highway corridor and it is a form of transportation, and so we really viewed that ministry as being ultimately responsible for it. But it's not something that the ministry had done before.

Peter Ladner: 8:03

So this was the first time the ministry had taken ownership of one of these projects.

Allan Kindrat: 8:08

To my understanding, yes, the capital program is funding active transportation projects in their highway corridor for the first time as major works projects.

Peter Ladner: 8:18

Can you say anything about what it took to bring the ministry into the picture? I know that they've been spending a lot of money on active transportation projects in different ways, but if this is a new way, was there something about this project that attracted them? Is it something that you and the advocates on the ground had to do to bring them in?

Allan Kindrat: 8:37

Yeah, the Cycle 16 Trail Society and WSP, as their project manager, worked closely with the ministry for a number of years leading up to the construction of the first phase. Because the project is in their right of way, they have final say on the design and whether or not to permit the trail in their right of way. Originally, the plan was to have the trail constructed and the regional district would have a license of occupation to operate the trail within the highway right-of-way, and so it took very close coordination with the ministry to ensure that the project could be approved and constructed and ultimately operated in their right of way. Now, one thing that we've been very fortunate about in Smithers is having the support of the local ministry district. They have been absolutely fantastic to work with. They are local cyclists and advocates themselves, and so having the support from the local ministry district was a really big deal for the project when the ministry announced the funding for the capital program last year it was $9.3 million for the remaining phases of cycle 16.

Allan Kindrat: 10:04

$6.3 million for the remaining phases of cycle 16. I believe they announced $85 million total spread across about 11 projects in the province.

Peter Ladner: 10:13

You were saying, when they announced it, that signaled the final stage of funding it and readiness to finish it?

Allan Kindrat: 10:21

That's right. So prior to them announcing the funding, we were working closely with the regional district, the town and Cycle 16 to apply for grants to fund the construction of the remaining phases. We had a lot of momentum with the project, but we really were at a point where we're just waiting for the right grant to move forward with the next phase. And with the ministry announcing the funding, it's now taken all of the uncertainty away from ensuring that the project gets complete, because the funding is in place now and we're working through the final stages of design on the remaining phases. Phase three of the Cycle 16 Trail was actually put out to tender a little over a month ago and has now been awarded to a local contractor, and construction will begin later this month.

Peter Ladner: 11:13

We hear this a lot, that the involvement of the ministry depends quite heavily on the local ministry manager, and would you say that that's something that communities have to accept or work with? If they have a manager, for example, who's not as supportive, are projects like these even likely or possible?

Allan Kindrat: 11:40

It's a great question. I would like to believe that they're still possible, but you certainly have more of an uphill battle if you don't have the buy-in from your local ministry district. They are key to any development within the highway right-of-way, which many of these projects rely upon heavily.

Peter Ladner: 12:01

So there's no overriding policy that's coming down from the top in the ministry that requires all these district managers to be on side with projects like these.

Allan Kindrat: 12:13

Not that I'm aware of. This is a very new thing for the ministry, for them to be taking over these projects and leading them, and so I think that they're still working out what those policies are in terms of operations and maintenance of active transportation infrastructure in their highway right-of-way, how they manage the maintenance of these new trails right-of-way how they manage the maintenance of these new trails.

Peter Ladner: 12:37

Well, I'm pretty excited about this because I know from my experience in the city of Vancouver, when the city engineers first figured out how to build a bike route, it took a lot of engineering, back and forth and figuring, and once they got it, then the next bike routes were way easier. Would you say that would be the case in this example, that once they figured out this right-of-way active transportation corridor, then the next ones will be easier?

Allan Kindrat: 13:09

I believe so. Yeah, and I think Cycle 16 and other projects in the province have began to set a bit of a precedence, and it's exciting to see that the ministry has taken this one over, because it gives hope to many other projects throughout the province that are in similar situations.

Peter Ladner: 13:29

Let's talk about one of those projects, because I know you've been hired by the Connect the Coast Society on the Sunshine Coast. What are you working on there and what is your role and how's it going?

Allan Kindrat: 13:43

My role on that project is similar to my role was on Cycle 16. I've been hired as their project manager to help liaise with local governments and ministry agencies with local governments and ministry agencies and they've also hired us to do the conceptual design for their priority segment, which is from the edge of the town of Gibsons to Lower Road. It's approximately three kilometers and the first section of that is within the town of Gibsons and the final two segments are within the Sunshine Coast Regional District. So it has a lot of similarities to the Cycle 16 project, where it's spanning multiple local governments and the infrastructure is within the highway, right-of-way. And so right now we're developing the conceptual design to help prove the feasibility of the project, and we also have a significant component in stakeholder engagement, and so we were actually down in Gibsons in February, meeting with the local governments as well as many of the elected officials to discuss the project, to get input and feedback on our design and to strategize how best to move the project forward.

Peter Ladner: 15:11

Now the three kilometers. Is that towards the ferry at Langdale or in some other direction? It's actually towards Sechelt. Oh, okay, going the other way, Right, yeah, and what are your challenges? Progress reports on that one.

Allan Kindrat: 15:29

Well, the Highway 101 corridor is extremely challenging along the Sunshine Coast is extremely challenging. Along the Sunshine Coast it's generally pretty narrow and there are a lot of utilities and properties and topographical constraints, drainages that make designing a multi-use path within the Highway Right-of-Way very challenging and expensive.

Peter Ladner: 15:55

How about raising the money? You mentioned that you were hired by the local society, so the local advocates had to come up with the money to pay you.

Allan Kindrat: 16:03

That's right. Yeah, so they rely heavily on grants as did Cycle 16, to fund these early phases of the project, and what their role is is really championing the project and helping prove out the feasibility of it and developing a social license for the project. The ultimate goal is that they can take the project to a stage where local governments are fully in support of it and see the value that the project will offer to the community and eventually take it over. On that note, there's kind of two different paths that the project could take. Path one would be the local governments choose to own and operate the trail. They would also be responsible for funding the construction of it. And path two would be that the Ministry of Transportation and Transit would take it over, which is what happened with the Cycle 16 project. So the Connect the Coast Society is pursuing both paths and working towards trying to to find an owner for it.

Peter Ladner: 17:23

Alan, it sounds like you are technically an engineer. I mean, you are an engineer, but your job involves a certain amount of if I can call it politics, of bringing people together and coming to consensus on roots funding and all of that stuff. Is that a big part of what you're doing?

Allan Kindrat: 17:40

It's funny, I don't think of it as politics, but there is certainly an element of that. Certainly, we do a lot of stakeholder engagement, and so building those relationships is key. Yeah, I bring a few elements, I guess, to the project. I'm a professional project manager so I have good experience on what it takes to deliver projects, but I also have a lot of experience in stakeholder engagement and helping build support for the project. And then I've also got the technical experience of a transportation engineer, so I understand a lot of the technical challenges that go along with projects like this.

Peter Ladner: 18:26

I imagine understanding the technical challenges would be pretty darn important, because it's easy to say, oh, we should just put a route along here, without realizing we've got to cross all these intersections and drainages and sewer pipes, whatever. Realizing you've got to cross all these intersections and drainages and sewer pipes, whatever. The one in Smithers, the Cycle 16 project, you said, took 20 years but it culminated in a breakthrough funding initiative and responsibility by the Ministry of Transportation and Transit. Do other advocates have to expect to wait 20 years for their projects to come to fruition, or do you think?

Allan Kindrat: 19:04

we're now on a much faster track because of some of this recent work that you've been involved with.

Allan Kindrat: 19:17

Yeah, I do think that some of the groundwork that has been done on projects like Cycle 16 will help us move more quickly on some of these projects, and I do think that the province itself is in a different place today than it was 20 years ago when it comes to prioritizing active transportation and capital projects, and so and I think we're in an exciting place where we're seeing a lot more funding being allocated to these types of projects.

Allan Kindrat: 19:40

With that said, it certainly does take a lot of effort to get these projects to the point where local governments or the ministry are willing to take them over, and having an organization, or multiple organizations, champion a project is really important. That was certainly the key to success for Cycle 16. I think it's the only reason the Sunshine Coast project is making progress as well, because the Connect the Coast Society is championing the project. Hopefully, one day we're in a place where that's not necessary, where boards of volunteers don't have to dedicate their time to ensure that these important projects get built, but that certainly is a key piece of the projects in today's environment.

Peter Ladner: 20:33

Well, we're working hard through the BC Cycling Coalition and this podcast to help these advocates learn how to do it. But I certainly appreciate your point that it does seem a bit weird. You don't hear local advocates having to get together and raise funding for the consultation on building a highway interchange, for example. It just gets done Now with the ministry getting involved. How are they measuring success? What is their desired outcome? And is there data being collected, say on the Cycle 16 path, to prove that money was well spent?

Allan Kindrat: 21:04

Yeah, we've got eco-counters, which are bi-directional pedestrian cyclist counters, installed on each phase of the project so that we can collect data on the usage, and so that is something that the province is collecting on all their projects to show what the return on investment was for the total capital investment versus the total usage in the end. So far, cycle 16 has been getting a lot of use, which is really exciting to see. We've got a local bakery at the end of phase one, and so every Saturday they've got a what they call a bikery event. Um, and we see upwards of 350 pedestrians and cyclists commuting out to the, to the bikery every Saturday Wonderful.

Peter Ladner: 21:53

You got, you said you. You told me you had two, two kids, two sons, five and seven. That's right. Have you been to the bikery? I have, yeah, and what's it like? What's the feeling out there? You must feel pretty good about this coming to fruition because of you, and here you are with your friends and relatives.

Allan Kindrat: 22:11

It's amazing. I just yeah. I feel very fortunate to have been a part of this project and to see it contribute to our community and to see my kids use it and hopefully, one day, their kids. I never expected to design these types of projects for a living. It really was the Cycle 16 project and the opportunity that was given to me that put my career on a path of almost exclusively designing these projects, so it's really neat. I feel quite fortunate for it.

Peter Ladner: 22:40

Are there other people in your organization and around the province who have this expertise and are also getting involved in this? Because the way you've described it, it would sound like fingers crossed. This is a growing employment opportunity, let's say, and opportunity for companies like yours.

Allan Kindrat: 22:58

Absolutely. Yeah, we've got a growing team of transportation engineers that are designing trails like this throughout the province. Wsp has a very large landscape architecture team and transportation planning team and so they contribute important components to to projects like this and they work a lot with local governments on active transportation network plans and, yeah, it's an exciting space.

Peter Ladner: 23:27

Before we let you go. Are there people in Smithers, where you're most which is what you're most familiar with who you wouldn't have thought would care or be involved with this, who have find themselves now supporting it, now that it's there, and they've experienced how, let's say wonderful it is.

Allan Kindrat: 23:47

Absolutely yeah. So before the first phase of cycle 16 was constructed there was certainly some opposition to the project Maybe not a good use of taxpayer dollars or expectations that it wouldn't get a whole lot of use. And that piece of trail has been in operation for two years now and we see a ton of use on the trail and a lot of people commute to town and they're driving by the first phase of cycle 16 and seeing their friends or their grandkids biking on the trail. And it certainly has flipped the perception and support stage because people can see it getting used and can see it acting as a safe means of transportation for many, which riding on the highway shoulder was pretty scary and continues to be scary for a lot of people, and so seeing a separated bike path where kids and families can ride is pretty special.

Peter Ladner: 24:55

Fantastic. Do you have any other advice for other organizations that might be interested in this kind of project things?

Allan Kindrat: 25:03

they should get ready before they even call someone like you yeah, um, in my experience there's more support in communities for projects like this than most people realize, and so it's drumming up that support and building a social license for the project, and that does take a lot of effort, but it is a key step in advancing a project. And so if you have a project in your community that would help improve the community, then you need to work with some of the local organizations and build support for it. There's a lot of grant funding out there to help advance projects like this. Grants from where. There are grants that the province has through the BC Active Transportation Program program. They offer, I believe, $50,000 per year for active transportation network plans and up to $500,000 for capital projects. There are federal grants and then there's lots of local organizations that grant money to projects like this.

Peter Ladner: 26:12

So, alan, will we see you at the Regional Active Transportation Conference in Kimberley September 10th to 12th. So, alan, will we see you at the regional active transportation conference in kimberly september 10th to 12th yes absolutely.

Peter Ladner: 26:19

I'm looking forward to it. Fantastic, so people who come to that conference will have a chance to ask you more questions about these projects and, uh, hopefully advance them in their own communities. Thank you so much for your advice and we look forward to following your progress on connect the coast and wherever else you might be lending your talents. Thanks, alan, thanks peter. You've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the bc cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. Peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

Find out more about Cycle 16 (Smithers to Telkwa) HERE

Find out more about Sunshine Coast: Connect the Coast Trail HERE

Visit Allan Kindrat HERE

Learn about B.C. Active Transportation Infrastructure Grants (and find out which projects have received them) HERE

What does it take to transform personal tragedy into meaningful policy change? Eleanor McMahon's story provides a masterclass in effective advocacy that transcends political divisions while saving lives on our roads.

After losing her husband Greg — an Ontario Provincial Police officer — to a careless driver in 2006, McMahon channeled her grief into founding the Share the Road Cycling Coalition. With her background working for two Prime Ministers and her extensive political connections, she embarked on a methodical journey to research international cycling advocacy models before creating an organization to fill the gaps she discovered in Ontario. The results have been life changing and life saving, and carry huge ramifications for cycling safety in BC.

Release Date: July 18, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today we're moving out of BC on this podcast for the first time to welcome Eleanor McMahon, a powerhouse lobbyist for safer cycling in Ontario, canada and indeed the world. She's a former press secretary to Jean Chrétien, she's a former Ontario Minister of Tourism, culture and Sport, she's a former CEO of the TransCanada Trail and today she is the chair of the board of an organization she founded which interests us the most, which is the Share the Road Cycling Coalition in Ontario. Welcome, eleanor.

Eleanor McMahon: 1:09

Hi, peter, thanks for having me.

Peter Ladner: 1:11

Perhaps you could just share with our listeners the reasons why you have found yourself to be a cycling advocate in the first place.

Eleanor McMahon: 1:20

I've ridden my bike most of my life and I grew up the youngest of seven children in a family in Windsor, Ontario, and back then, certainly in those days, we walked everywhere, took the bus, rode our bikes everywhere, and bikes were freedom, just like today. And my parents certainly only had one car so I wasn't getting a ride anywhere. So, hoof it, take the bus, get a ride with someone or, gosh, take your bike were our choices of transportation. We were multimodal back then, just like most people are today. So, as someone who loved to ride her bike and and you know, it was a bit of a lifelong passion and someone who did triathlons later in life, the sad part of this story is that my late husband, with whom I used to enjoy riding a lot we lived in a part of Ontario because he was an Ontario provincial police officer that was fairly remote and very rural and so we could go on a three-hour and not see a car, Uh and um.

Eleanor McMahon: 2:25

When he got transferred to the greater Toronto area in Burlington, where I live now, um, it was much more congested, obviously much higher dense, densely populated. We'd both lived in the Toronto area previously. So in fact, Greg and I met when he when he was, uh, uh, on on duty in the Toronto area, and so we, we were ready for that. But, honestly, uh, cycling in in a much more densely populated, higher traffic volume area was something that it took some getting used to. And, uh, Greg was often saying to me you know, make sure you're safe. Um, we, when we went on rides together, even though he was much more powerful than me, he would ride behind me to make sure that I was okay. So, obviously, being a police officer, he had a lot of concerns about safety and wanting to make sure that we were both safe.

Eleanor McMahon: 3:12

And sadly, that didn't help him because on June, the 6th 2006, he went out for a training ride on his bike. We were training for a triathlon that we'd entered, which is something we love to do, just not seriously. We weren't Olympic athletes or anything, but it was something we loved staying fit and swimming and running and cycling. And Greg had just bought a new bike. It was the month of June, as I mentioned, He'd just got his tax return refund from the government and went out and bought a bike. He was ready to get a new one and very excited, so he took that money that was burning a hole in his pocket and off he went to this great store and bought a bike and the last words I said were I love you and I'll talk to you later. And he was hit by a careless driver just north of our home here in Burlington while on his training ride and he died in hospital later that night.

Peter Ladner: 4:13

I'm so sorry to hear, Eleanor. I know that triggered you to start the Share the Road Cycling Coalition. What is the Share the Road Cycling Coalition?

Eleanor McMahon: 4:23

If I may, it is a good question because after Greg was killed, I I decided that I um as I um grieved for him, um, and I do come from a very large family of seven kids and um fairly wide network, and so many people said you know, how can we help? And I got lots of calls from politicians because, as you pointed out, in my early career I worked for two prime ministers and so I had a pretty vast political network. And the premier of Ontario called me I knew him, I still know him, dalton McGinty and asked what could he do. And I said I need you to stay in touch with me because I don't know what it is, but we're going to do something because Greg's death was so tragic and preventable and silly really. So all of it's so silly and preventable and you know, this was someone who I never thought would die, would have his life taken doing something he loved. He was in a very risky profession for which he was highly trained and I never worried about him. Risky profession for which he was highly trained and I never worried about him. But somehow there he was enjoying his training ride and overtaken carelessly by a motorist who had several convictions for driving under suspension. We'll get to that later.

Eleanor McMahon: 5:37

But as I began to cope with Greg's death, I started you know I mentioned I got several phone calls from people who wanted to help. But I also started to really think what could we do? And started to do some research, peter, about what existed, and then I realized there really wasn't any cycling advocacy organization in Ontario that did the kind of work that I thought needed doing. But before I did anything I needed to do more research. So I traveled internationally. I spent some time in the United States. I started looking at jurisdictions that had the kind of legislative constructs that we desperately needed in Ontario and really started to learn a lot. Went to Europe my city, burlington, is twinned with Appledorn in Holland. We all know that the Netherlands is really so advanced in terms of cycling, and so I started spending time in Europe and developed a network of colleagues at the European Cyclist Federation in the UK and mainland Europe France, germany, italy, netherlands and really started talking to as many people as I could about how do you do things where you live and started to learn about all of these programs. And then I spent some time here in Ontario as well and talked to Canadians. I did travel to BC, met with folks at the BC Cycling Coalition and had a chat with them and, of course, velo Quebec our dear friends in Quebec and started to really talk to people here in Ontario.

Eleanor McMahon: 7:04

And the reason I did that, peter, was because I wanted to make sure that if we started something, we were really doing it as a result of what was needed and filling gaps, and it was more research. So I was invited to give talks and I would go to talk to city council and do deputations. I would speak to cycling advocates and I traveled around Ontario and I learned about what we had at the time and really what we didn't. And so I asked people if we build this, will you come? Will you support it financially? Will you? Because, on a practical level, as you know, non-for-profits need funding and what kind of organization should it be and what do you think we should be addressing as a priority?

Eleanor McMahon: 7:44

And then was getting very encouraged by what I saw, which was a huge hole. As someone who'd spent most of her life either in political work or in non-for-profit advocacy work, I realized that a lot of what was needed at the community level were savvy advocates. A lot of the people that were in communities were lovely and very passionate, but didn't know what I knew. Didn't know how to influence better outcomes, how to work with politicians or how to build community, and so that was one of the big areas of focus that we had and we still have, which is building a better advocacy community and equipping advocates with the tools to be successful.

Peter Ladner: 8:27

Can you give me an example of how that would work, and let's pick one community that needed a lift.

Eleanor McMahon: 8:33

Yeah, sure, I'm thinking of Halliburton, which is a rural community in the Muskoka area. They'll kill me for saying that because they're not Muskoka. They're adjacent to Muskoka.

Peter Ladner: 8:45

Our listeners won't know the difference. It's okay.

Eleanor McMahon: 8:49

They had a really great group of advocates there. I was invited by a woman who'd heard about me and wanted me to give a talk, and she worked in public health there, and so I went up and I this again. They said would you come? We have this evening open. We'd love you to come. So I came.

Eleanor McMahon: 9:06

I spent the after the talk, we had a social time and I talked to everybody in the room. Peter and I asked them what do you do? So what would you like to see? And, just really good thing, I'm so outgoing. I talked to as many people as I could about. So how do things work here? Tell me, did you know that this is happening elsewhere in the province, which was another really interesting opportunity for us.

Eleanor McMahon: 9:27

It was quite clear that municipalities weren't aware that there was progress in other places and there were things going on, and that was a big disconnect. But really, at the advocacy level, just understanding how people were trying to influence outcomes and not being successful and I could see them getting. They're hitting their heads against the wall and getting frustrated, and human behavior dictates that when you get frustrated, we're not at our best. I can say that I'm not perfect. I get frustrated all the time, and when I get frustrated, I get crabby, and when I get crabby, I don't really show up as my best self, and I don't mean to make fun or make light of these issues, because our safety on the road is deadly serious. And what I saw, though, were a bunch of people who had been frustrated over the years and not able to make the change that they wanted to see, and so meeting with them really and talking to them about how to be effective led to some more formalization a lobby day at our legislature and all party cycling caucus, which we can talk about, an advocacy toolkit that we developed online for people to share to really help them to be more effective, and some webinars on training advocates to really teach them about.

Eleanor McMahon: 10:40

You know, as I often say, you know, I remember this one woman who was lovely, and her partner joined her, and the two of them were quite, quite frustrated, and he said to me oh, I'm just so mad, you know, I can't, we can't get anywhere, it's so frustrating. I said, well, tell me, what have you done? Whoa, we, we went to this thing and we did, and they were really not setting themselves up for success. So I said. You know, as human beings it's normally an okay to get frustrated, but you know you don't like it when people punch you in the nose and poke you in the eyes. So politicians don't like that either.

Eleanor McMahon: 11:10

And your job is to make friends with as many people as you can and bring as many people along as you can, because there's a lot of joy in cycling. So your joy you're, you're. You are the ambassador of joy. So your job is to get people on side as quickly and as often as possible, and it's going to take a while, but trust me, it's worth it.

Eleanor McMahon: 11:28

I did the same thing with a fellow in Sault Ste Marie who, years later, after the mayor, said to me oh, we can't deal with that fellow, he's so angry all the time. And I met the mayor at the Association of Municipalities of Ontario meeting and he said we can't. His name is Andre. He won't mind me talking about this lovely guy. He came up to me years later and said you know what? Your advice to me was a game changer. I said really? He said yeah, you just told me to be fair and friendly and be nice to people and show up and have all my facts and try to make friends. And boy, did it ever change him? He said cause I'm a Francophone and I'm feisty and I'm an emotional person. And I got mad and I said all those things are okay, but save those for your friends and family or your pals over a beer. When you're in public and you're talking about cycling, don't forget that you're competing against a lot of really professionally, highly trained lobbyists and other people who want exactly what you want, and so the best thing that you can do is be fair and friendly and say hello and can we talk and then just carry on as you would in any professional setting. So those are some examples of some of the work that we did.

Eleanor McMahon: 12:32

And then again, as I said, we began to realize that this was a big area of business for us and we began to raise funding to do these on a project basis and we started training advocates en masse. And whenever I went to a municipality, I would meet with the council and meet with the councillors, and most municipalities in Ontario anyway have a bicycle advisory committee of some sort, and I was on the bicycle advisory committee in my own community because I wanted to see how it worked, and I would meet with as many people as possible. So when I went to a city I would give a talk usually, and then spend the rest of my time talking to decision makers, influencers. I'd shop, I'd go to the bike shop and talk to people there and really start to spread the word organically about our organization.

Eleanor McMahon: 13:19

And again, as many times as we could, ask people their opinion how are we doing? What should we be doing that we're not doing. And then, peter, once I spent some time continuing to talk to people, we realized that there was room for an organization, and so we incorporated and, as a non-for-profit organization, appointed a board of directors and then started grant writing and hiring staff and building a good strategic plan, which each non-for-profit should do. Everybody knows that. And so we got some funding to do a really robust strategic plan and talked to as many people as we could again about where they wanted to see us in five years and then got to work at the Ontario Legislature, meeting with politicians and with bureaucrats and talking to them about what we needed to see.

Peter Ladner: 14:09

So run me through some of your. You've had some remarkable successes. Can you just give us a quick thumbnail of some of the things that you implemented through this organization?

Eleanor McMahon: 14:19

So the first piece of legislation that we passed was in Greg's memory. I went to the commissioner of the OPP, the Ontario Provincial Police, and I asked him if he would help me to lobby for a change in the Highway Traffic Act to deal with people the fellow that killed my husband. So he had five convictions for driving under suspension, four convictions for driving without a license, $15,000 in unpaid fines and two months after he killed my husband, he hit someone else and he was a commercial driver. Months after he killed my husband, he hit someone else and he was a commercial driver. So you can imagine, especially as the spouse of a police officer. Cops are notorious for coming home from shift and saying, oh my gosh, and telling you how was your day, how was your day, that's what, that's what. That's what spouses do. And, um, I would hear the frustration in Greg's voice. He was a kind and lovely man, but he would get frustrated at his own inability to deal with the lack of safety that he saw on the road. And that spirit and that dedication and that determination was something that I carried with me, and so when I started doing research on legislation in other provinces, I realized that Alberta and Saskatchewan had legislation that dealt with people who habitually drive under suspension, and people who habitually drive under suspension have a propensity to take risks, and so I was fairly certain that those are the type of people that probably cyclists need to be concerned about. Those are the type of people that probably cyclists need to be concerned about.

Eleanor McMahon: 15:58

And so, again, I went to the commissioner and I laid out a business case for changing the legislation, after doing all my research, and I said we have the busiest roads in the country. We don't have this legislation. Alberta and Saskatchewan have it. We need to have it. Here's what I'd like to do. Would you help me? And he said, yes, I will absolutely help you. And I said, okay, I will absolutely help you. And I said, okay, I'll do the politics and the media, you do the public service. And he said, okay, you're on.

Eleanor McMahon: 16:27

And so, less than a year later, we had Greg's law, which heightened the penalties for people who drive habitually under suspension, three quarters of whom are driving still, which is really not great, because if you get hit by someone who's under suspension, they don of whom are driving still, which is really not great, because if you get hit by someone who's under suspension, they don't have insurance. Now, it may be different where you are because you have a different regime of insurance, but in Ontario, if you're under suspension, you're not insured, and if you hit someone, that just adds to the tragedy. So that's the first law that we did. So Greg's law was passed and it went into effect in 2009. And that was our first piece of legislation, so that that this, this, led to bigger and better things, but that was the first thing we did.

Peter Ladner: 17:14

We left off. You were talking about Greg's law and what it would do. What are some of the other successes that Share the Road Cycling Coalition has had?

Eleanor McMahon: 17:25

In 2009, we started the Ontario Bike Summit, and this was because we realized that municipalities weren't sharing best practices about cycling and there was no forum to do that or mechanism to do it, so we decided to create one.

Eleanor McMahon: 17:38

We also wanted a forum for political conversations and advocacy and to allow advocates the opportunity to learn from each other and municipalities to learn from each other and to invite municipal, federal sorry, provincial ministers to come and join us and to hear what was going on, because nothing was happening provincially.

Eleanor McMahon: 17:59

And in parallel, we were lobbying at Queen's Park and starting to make traction with some of the public policy work that we needed. But the Ontario Bike Summit was important for one other reason as I had started to work and lobby at the provincial level, I realized that there was no cycling strategy in Ontario and I knew that there was no way that the officials were going to do that. And, to be fair, when Bob Ray was briefly premier in Ontario, there was a cycling strategy, but that had been 20 years prior and there had been nothing done since. And I knew that if we were going to get that done, we had to do it ourselves. And I knew that if we were going to get that done. We had to do it ourselves. So I raised some money and I hired a pollster and we started doing extensive research and we reached out to as many people who would talk to us law enforcement municipalities we went to AMO, they gave us their list and so we did a big survey.

Peter Ladner: 18:48

What is AMO?

Eleanor McMahon: 18:51

The Association of Municipalities of Ontario. I think you probably have a similar construct, Peter, having been a municipal politician yourself.

Peter Ladner: 18:57

UBC, yeah, yeah.

Eleanor McMahon: 18:58

And so we went to AMO and we said would you allow us to do a survey of your members? And they said yes. So we took all that survey data and we wrote a fairly extensive report when Ontario Bikes, ontario Benefits. And that public policy document, which called for extensive changes across an array of ministries in the Ontario government, laid the groundwork for the first Ontario cycling strategy in Ontario four years later. So after we wrote that report which I wrote in BC, by the way, during the Vancouver Olympics in 2010, I stayed with my friend in Vancouver and I wrote that report, I took all the research and data and I pulled it together. And then I walked into the office of the Minister of Transportation who was later the Premier, kathleen Wynne, and I said here is a comprehensive look at cycling from people that you care about Police, law enforcement, municipalities, public health, cycling advocates and citizens across Ontario. Here's what they want their Ontario government to do, and you're not doing it and you need to do it. And here it is, here it is, you don't have to do another thing. And she said right.

Eleanor McMahon: 20:06

I came down from that meeting and on my way down, the Deputy Minister of Transportation was in the elevator by happenstance, and he said so I hear we're doing an Ontario cycling strategy. I said, well, good news travels fast. The minister had already, in the time that it took me to get to the elevator, actioned into the deputy that we were going to be embracing an opportunity to do a cycling strategy in Ontario, with any inherent tourism benefits, by the way. So we didn't forget about the economic economic side of cycling which, as you know, peter, is so important. That was another success. We laid the groundwork for a cycling strategy and at the ontario bike summit we amalgamated everyone and said we're going to do this, this strategy, and we want your help.

Eleanor McMahon: 20:47

And then, a number of months later, less than a year, we did a press conference, conference in Ontario and Toronto and we released the results and we showed everyone this is what Ontario needs and this is what they don't have. And the government sent an MPP to comment favorably on the with the media there, glenn Murray, who was later my colleague in cabinet, to comment very positively. He was Toronto Centre, so the largest number of cyclists in the country, aside from Vancouver and Montreal, live in Toronto and so Glenn, being a cyclist himself, said, yeah, I'm in. So that started some really great momentum provincially for us. And then, three years later, we had the first Ontario Cycling Strategy. But there's a story there too. But I'm going to let you ask me another question. So that was another early win. That was another early win.

Peter Ladner: 21:40

Could you briefly describe the impact of the cycling strategy? What difference did it make having that strategy versus not having it?

Eleanor McMahon: 21:49

Game-changing. I mean it started to really demonstrate the opportunities inherent in the provincial government playing a much greater role. It also showed them that people that they cared about cared about it. Not just cycling, not just cyclists, as if we didn't matter. We do.

Eleanor McMahon: 22:05

But I went to people that they listened to municipal leaders, law enforcement, public health, law enforcement, public health. When you had those people saying it and you start to build civic society around your argument, you can't you know, politicians can't say no to that. So we put together a report that was based on feedback and interventions from those people that government cared about. And that's how we got their attention and they started working right away to build some capacity within the army. Because I was, I was meeting with mto, I was meeting with the ministry of transportation, I was getting nowhere, um, and I actually had and and they're not bad people, they just they just needed someone to nudge them along, peter, and that's what we did well, you're painting a picture that there's all the support for cycling from the municipalities, the health authorities, and we all know that and have heard that, but and imagine that sometimes in our mind to be more than it is.

Peter Ladner: 23:01

And yet today in ontario, um, that doesn't seem to be calling the shots in from the provincial government. They seem to have turned on cyclists. How are you responding to that and how is that affecting these initiatives?

Eleanor McMahon: 23:19

When we launched the first Ontario Cycling Strategy in 2013 and then I was invited to join the government in 2014,. Our work really escalated from there, because then I got into cabinet shortly after that and the Premier invited me to do much more change, which we did. We started to operationalize the ontario cycling strategy and really, really drive it home and and address the things that were called for, and we held ourselves to account. Based on that that feedback that we'd have from citizens, people said this is what we want you to do, and we started doing it and which were?

Peter Ladner: 23:47

what were those?

Eleanor McMahon: 23:47

things, um, invest in infrastructure, pass more changes to the highway traffic act, including a one meter safe passing law, which ont. Ontario was the second province in Canada to do and really start to hone in on the economic impacts of cycling tourism and embrace that which we did and which, as when I was tourism minister, I did the first Ontario cycling tourism strategy in the history of the province, and the Ontario cycling route, which is now almost finished. The province and the Ontario cycling route, which is now almost finished. So so, yes, the current government has taken a step back. However, governments don't last forever. I think they're making a huge mistake. They know that. But we are working quietly and behind the scenes to mobilize, to make our voices heard in a in in the kind of behind the scenes, to mobilize, to make our voices heard in the kind of behind the scenes way.

Eleanor McMahon: 24:36

We are an organization that works proactively and productively with government and we made sure, peter, that cycling remains nonpartisan. If we take a partisan approach, then we're no better than the people we point fingers at and say don't make cycling partisan. People's lives should never be a political argument. Don't politicize cycling for your own benefit. And so we shouldn't either. And so we work across party lines with everybody in the legislature and, yes, there are members of the government caucus who have quietly said to me I don't support what the premier is doing. And so we have friends on all sides of the legislature and we're mobilizing and the mayors. We just had our Ontario Bike Summit. A panel of mayors said resoundingly that the best thing that the government can do for us is more cycling infrastructure funding. So we're clear on what our lobbying strategy is, because our stakeholders and partners have told us what it needs to be.

Eleanor McMahon: 25:32

But the fact is that we have a majority government in Ontario right now. We have a premier who has a decidedly 1950s view of the municipalities and he's fighting old battles when he was a councillor at the City of Toronto when his brother was mayor and he's also got a very, I suspect, peter. He politicizes things because that's who he is and he's got a very antiquated sense of who cyclists are and what they are. He's decided that cyclists are Birkenstock-wearing, cappuccino-sipping liberals and NDPers and those people don't vote for him anyway. So it's our job to mobilize civil society and say wait a second, that's not right.

Eleanor McMahon: 26:13

And our public polling, peter which we do because polling influences outcomes tell us that 87% of Ontarians are cyclists and motorists at the same time. So it's a false paradigm to enter into this you versus me thing because it doesn't exist. So we call BS on that every chance we get, peter, because it's simply not the case that it's you versus me. And people who create that false paradigm and that construct aren't interested in solving problems. Well, it's the government's job to solve problems. That's why they're there. And so you know, I think there's some. We're making some some, you know, behind the scenes headway and we're continuing to keep cycling alive in a very positive way, because governments don't last forever.

Peter Ladner: 26:58

What is the role of the all party cycling caucus that you have in Ontario?

Eleanor McMahon: 27:04

It's a great question. So it is a common ground forum is a place where people from all sides of the legislature it's co-chaired, by the way, by Mike Schreiner, who's the leader of the Green Party in Ontario, and Mary Margaret McMahon no relation a Liberal MPP in Toronto and who's a cyclist, and both of them are and we have chosen an NDP member, catherine McKinney, who's also a member of our caucus, and we are working very hard to get someone from the government caucus Again. We know that we have people within caucus that are sympathetic, and so it's like I say about everything Peter, the train's leaving the station. If you're not on it, you can always join us later on. It's okay.

Eleanor McMahon: 27:47

You know it's okay when you see us having fun without you, then you can join, because we're meeting over the summer with the members of the caucus and we're devising our legislative strategy for the fall. So we've got some private members bills that we're'm bringing that back to Ontario because we need to have a nonpartisan forum to really have a fact-based, evidence-based conversation that's non-political, and our conversations are all about finding common ground, peter and fact-based, by the way, and evidence-based, not political. There's no room for politics. It gets checked at the door.

Peter Ladner: 28:49

Okay, I have a question for you about evidence. You brought in a one meter safe passing distance. We now have that in BC one meter when you're traveling under 50K, and 1.5 meters, which people are always surprised when I tell them that's the width of a queen-size mattress. Have you got any evidence that that has made a difference and how are you getting that enforced?

Eleanor McMahon: 29:13

Evidence? I don't know, I'd have to ask my friends in law enforcement about that. Second, as officers in places like Toronto will tell you, it's just helpful to have the charge on the books, and if someone is careless or is aggressive towards a cyclist, then the charge is there for them to leverage. Right If it wasn't there. I mean if it wasn't there. And it's also a great forum for awareness. So you mentioned the mattress thing. We just had the commissioner of the OPP. We just launched an awareness campaign featuring the commissioner of the OPP, who's a huge cyclist, and I called him and said would you help us do this? And he said yes, and so the one meter safe passing law is front and center. The campaign is about the one meter law and it's about reminding motorists that they need to give cyclists space, and sharing the road is not just a fun idea In Ontario, it's the law, and so we just launched that a month ago fantastic.

Peter Ladner: 30:15

something else that your organization does that fascinates me and we did actually a whole podcast about this, but I'd love your update on it is bike friendly communities, and I know that your summit in part is a way to announce the latest winners and who's gold, silver and and whatever and can you tell us how that works and how effective that's been? And also I want to know what it would take for us to get it here in BC.

Eleanor McMahon: 30:43

It's a fairly resource-heavy and intensive research-heavy exercise. We brought the Bike Friendly Program from the US in 2010. We helped to launch it in Quebec with fellow Quebec. A number of years later, we launched it at again the AMO conference, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. I invited my friend who'd been the mayor of Madison, wisconsin, dave Cheslevich. I invited a mayor to speak to mayors.

Eleanor McMahon: 31:13

So don't listen to me. Here's a guy who said stood in the room and said I was elected three times on a cycling agenda. They were like what Politicians' ears perked up? How did that happen? Well, here's what I did and this is how he did it. And like the lineup to talk to him was out the door because politicians were making assumptions.

Eleanor McMahon: 31:33

No one wants cycling. 87% of people in this province are multimodal. Don't let the false arguments and false paradigms rule your world. It's bunk. It's not true. Don't create a construct to serve your political ends.

Eleanor McMahon: 31:49

So the bike-friendly program has been a game changer for us, the biggest thing I think it does well, there are three things it does. Number one it measures progress and honors municipalities in a really positive way. We need more positive in cycling, peter. I'm really keen on this. We just need more opportunity to embrace. Peter. I'm really keen on this. We just need more opportunity to embrace progress. Better is always possible. The standard of perfection that we set ourselves sometimes and I've seen advocates do this a lot and it kind of makes my hair stand on end Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. When there's progress, salute it every single time, because progress begets progress. If people are doing things well, tell them thank you. It's just human behavior. And what the Bike Friendly Program does is it really helps municipalities have a different and very positive conversation about cycling versus. Oh my gosh, we really suck, we're terrible. Well, actually, you're not. You're doing a lot of really good things.

Eleanor McMahon: 32:43

So it works on the basis of an application. It's very extensive, um, and we we help municipalities through it. We have a panel of expert judges who are planners, engineers, city builders, urbanists. I'm on the panel. I'm not sure how I fall into that. I'm not an engineer or planner, um, I just care about this stuff and we adjudicate. There's also a section of the application excuse me that is highly weighted towards municipal feedback.

Eleanor McMahon: 33:13

So it's a really great way for municipalities to hear from their citizens about how they're actually doing, and it's not for us, as judges, to come in and say we're having this conversation with the city of Windsor right now, by the way, because we just had the summit there and always an outcome of our summit is a revisiting of their bicycle-friendly community designation, and there's a desire to do that.

Eleanor McMahon: 33:35

Cities are hungry for how to be better, how to do it differently, how other municipalities are doing it, and a platform that allows them to share that information is exactly what the bike friendly program does, and it really does reward success, and if you're not quite there, it says, okay, you're doing great, but really, if you want to progress, here are five things that you should do immediately. Here are five that maybe you want to address in the medium term and in the longer. You have to demonstrate progress towards implementation of a cycling network and a bicycle master plan, for example, an AT master plan that's a vibrant part of your transportation master plan. This is how it works in Ontario anyway.

Peter Ladner: 34:19

How do you deal with communities that are very small and maybe don't have even a traffic planner or transportation planner? Because I noticed that in qualifying for this, you have to get a group of people together in your municipality, you have to include the politicians and the engineers and so on, and if they're very thinly resourced, how do they deal with it?

Eleanor McMahon: 34:46

I've actually never had a problem with that. I mean, even in small communities you can still manage to pull together one or two staff from the city Sometimes it's the CAO, sometimes it's that you can pull in public health, because in Ontario anyway, public health is a regional responsibility. In Ontario anyway, public health is a regional responsibility and they have, especially in large catchment areas, you know, public health staff and adjoining municipalities, even if you don't have one in your municipality. So it's, it's really you need a champion in this in the community.

Peter Ladner: 35:15

Is that a requirement that public health has to be involved?

Eleanor McMahon: 35:18

No, but it's helpful.

Peter Ladner: 35:20

But they're useful allies, of course.

Eleanor McMahon: 35:21

It's really useful allies and, again, they are the evidence-based people who say, well, we do lots of campaigns for anti-obesity and quit smoking and better heart and all these things, and cycling is really connected to all those things and, by the way, when you do it, you should really be safe. So, by the way, get going on implementing better infrastructure and, oh, by the way, get the tourism people involved too, because we know that cycling tourism is hugely beneficial to communities and there's lots of data we've done and others have done that looks at measuring the impact of cycling from a tourism perspective. So it's really about finding allies where you can and even small municipalities can pull together. You know folks who are interested and the other thing is that we match them up with other municipalities who've been successful.

Eleanor McMahon: 36:10

As I mentioned Windsor, we're going to do a workshop in the fall for the Go for Silver workshop in Windsor.

Eleanor McMahon: 36:19

That will bring together all the usual suspects city staff, advocates, politicians again public health all the law enforcement, city staff, advocates, politicians again public health all the law enforcement everybody into a room to have a conversation about where do we see Windsor in five years. And then we're bringing into that forum probably the city of Ottawa or one of our gold bicycle friendly communities to really give them a picture, because I think most people are visual, peter, and if you can tell them where they want to get to and then give them some idea on what the route looks like and how to get there, I think there's a lot of gratitude for that, because everybody wants to be in a constant improvement mode. Most people do, and if you tell them, you know, in five years, this is where, this is where you want to be, maybe and we can help you by introducing you to municipalities who are there already and they can tell you what's possible and how to do it. Can I give you another example that's not bike-friendly related?

Peter Ladner: 37:13

Sure.

Eleanor McMahon: 37:15

When I was in government, I learned that New Brunswick was trying to pass a one-meter safe passing law because they'd had the death of a high profile cyclist who was a professional cyclist, and she died, sadly, in the same way that Greg did. Someone pulled up to pass her and on a one lane road, and that's what happened with Greg. And so this is what you can do when you're in cabinet. So I found out who the minister was. I looked at his social media feed and I saw that he was advocating to get this done. So I arranged a call with him and he said oh, eleanor, the premier's really dragging his feet. He doesn't want to do it. And I said why? Ontario's got it? We have the biggest roads, the busiest roads in the country. If we can do it, you can do it. And then I gave him a bunch of information. Then I said CAA, by the way, one of our biggest allies on everything we do, but certainly on road safety, things like this, and he's like CAA. I never even thought of them and I said boom, you should reach out to them. So voila, caa got involved in Atlanta, canada, they passed the law.

Eleanor McMahon: 38:17

And the reason I share that story, peter, is once you can show that somebody else who's done it. So he said I talked to him after. He said I told the premier what you said and I said, oh good, goodness me, I hope that's okay, but you know, pointing out to him that the place with the busiest roads in the country was able to do it. You just have to have that. Yes, we can. Attitude Peter.

Peter Ladner: 38:41

What's your opinion of automated safety enforcement red light cameras, speed cameras and so on? They would be, as I see it, immensely effective, but there's obviously a political issue there. Have you ever taken that one on?

Eleanor McMahon: 38:59

I've never taken that one on. I know it's being debated in in toronto right now um people are going around and destroying.

Eleanor McMahon: 39:08

There's a message it's really quite distressing. Um, yeah, uh-huh. Um. Well, no one likes to be caught, um, and punished. Um, uh. I remember when, uh, I was talking to the commissioner of the OPP about doing Greg's law and I said why is it that penalties? Money works. What is it that changes people's behavior? Because, peter, when you do cycling work like we do, it's about behavior change. Getting people to think differently about cities, getting people to plan differently, put in infrastructure, thinking about their city to plan differently, put in infrastructure, thinking about their city modal mix differently and changing people's behavior in the context of law enforcement means short chart penalties sometimes that say to people you broke the law and now you're going to pay the consequences for that because we live in a lawful society. So I don't personally have an issue with speed enforcement that reminds people about how they need to drive or should drive. Anything that reminds people to stay safe on the road is, I think, a really good idea. I don't know, I don't know if that answers your question.

Peter Ladner: 40:16

It's one of those things where I think there may be a perception that the public is against it, and you mentioned some of those cameras got smashed. I'm reminded of the recent referendum I believe it was in Paris about whether they should allow e-scooters, and it was defeated. So they don't have e-scooters, but 5% of the people voted, and just one angry person smashing a camera may give the impression that everybody's against this, but you do the polling and your polling data would probably show. As ours shows, for example, on a 30-kilometer speed limit in residential areas, 75% of the people across the province think that's a great idea in their neighborhood, but the politicians won't touch it.

Eleanor McMahon: 40:59

We did it when we were in government. We did it.

Peter Ladner: 41:02

As a default across the province. And was there pushback? It's allowed in BC, but the it as a default across the province. And was there pushback? It's allowed in BC, but the municipalities have to each take it on.

Eleanor McMahon: 41:14

And we're advocating it should just be blanket across the province. Yeah, that one's so sensible to me. I remember Jeanette Sadek-Khan, the former commissioner of transportation in the city of New York under Bloomberg, and she now works for Bloomberg at a city's Institute. But, um, she oversaw, uh, under his direction, the the greatest transformation in New York city from a cycling point point of view. Um, probably ever. Um, really, uh, if, if you go to New York and I do have been a little while I'm not going to the States much these days, but one of my best friends works at the United Nations in New York, so I'm and I cycle when I'm there and I'm quite safe and comfortable.

Eleanor McMahon: 41:49

It's remarkable what she did closed down Times Square to vehicles. Yeah, there's always going to be pushback. Remember before I said you know people don't like change. People don't like change, peter, you know this right. And we're asking people to change and we're asking them to share the road, and we're asking them to be kind and we're asking them to give up space, and we're asking them to give in to people's instinct to improve the planet, their personal health, mitigate congestion and lower their own personal costs, which is everything that cycling does. And why is any of that bad? Back to Jeanette, what she told me about how they succeeded in New York was, she said I just made it about congestion and safety. So to your point about how municipalities push back, if you start to talk about children in community safety zones, which is what we did, who can be against saving children's lives?

Peter Ladner: 42:41

yeah, exactly who.

Eleanor McMahon: 42:43

Who can be against that? Right it just and, and you know when, when you're in Europe, in the UK, where I spent some time there after this global cycling conference in Gdansk recently, just last week I came home on Sunday and a bunch of neighborhoods that I was in I spent some time with friends cycling. I did a bike bus with a group of women that I met in Gdansk, in Glasgow, and they had these signs all over the neighborhood. 20 is plenty. 20 is plenty. Miles an hour, by the way, because they do miles in the UK, but it was interesting 20 is plenty. I thought that's so perfect, right? I mean, why do we need to go quickly, peter? Why can't we slow down in our neighborhoods and look after each other and our neighbors and our friends? Slow down.

Peter Ladner: 43:30

Well, politicians will frequently think of the frustrated motorists just wanting to get somewhere faster. But when you ask the question from the point of view of your neighborhood, do you think cars should go slower in your neighborhood?

Eleanor McMahon: 43:42

Overwhelmingly people say yes, Eleanor, we got to wrap this up, but before we go, you were in Gdansk. You talked to the European Cyclist Federation, was that it? Yeah, so the ECF has a global cycling conference. It was in Vancouver, by the way, in 2010. It's been in Canada twice. 1992 could have been 2012.

Eleanor McMahon: 44:00

Sorry, peter, I'm old now I forget stuff, but they have the Velocity Cycling Conference every year and it brings it's a global conference. About 2000 people attend. Uh, I've been going since 2009. Uh, I've been most years. When I was elected I didn't go, but um, I, uh, and, and, and it and. It brings together cycling advocates, professionals, city leaders, european. It's a very gravitas conference and I was asked to speak on a panel with colleagues from Paris, brussels, poland, the United States about bike clash. So a bit of what we're talking about now how there is pushback against, pushback against uh, cycling, um, and how we deal with that and how we manage that. So that was the conversation, uh, that we had. So it was. It was interesting and great for me to see longtime friends that I only see once a year, once every couple of years, my Dutch and Danish friends, for example. So great, great to be in that venue and lots of things that I've learned. It's always really inspiring to be there, peter.

Peter Ladner: 45:10

Well, speaking of conferences, the BC Cycling Coalition and the Planning Institute of BC are doing a regional cycling conference in Kimberley in September 10th to the 12th and I keep throwing that out there in these podcasts to encourage people to attend, and I'll talk to you later about that, because maybe we can get you there.

Eleanor McMahon: 45:29

Yeah, if you want me to come, maybe I'll look at my calendar and see what I can do. I love coming to BC.

Peter Ladner: 45:34

But I wanted to ask you one more thing about conflict that I'm now hearing about between, and I'm thinking about Europe and all the different modes of travel, the e-scooters and the faster, bigger, better e-bikes.

Peter Ladner: 45:47

It's now the line between non-motorized and motorized transportation starting to get very blurry. And there's we're hearing pushback again. I don't know if it's just people who are finding another reason to be angry at cyclists or actual. I think it's more as much from legitimate cyclists, for, for example, a friend of mine I heard who got knocked off her bike by passing e-bike going too fast. What are your thoughts about congestion in the bike lanes and these new technologies? Are they legitimate partners or do we have to somehow find a new place for them?

Eleanor McMahon: 46:30

new place for them. I'm going to a session on e-bike regulation in Ontario in a couple of weeks that the provincial government is putting on. I think, peter, it's a couple of things. I think this is fairly straightforward and it feels complicated because people don't know what to do, but we regulate cars from a speed point of view. We don't let people just go any speed they want. We have controlled zones and we control people's speeds and, you know, depending on where they are, I think it's probably a good idea to, because people make bad choices, peter, whether they're behind the wheel, and sometimes you and I have seen this, we've all seen it.

Eleanor McMahon: 47:10

I've done so many media interviews and I've never defended people who are careless or unsafe, because we are human beings first and cyclists and motorists second, and that human beingness means that we make silly decisions sometimes, and silly choices when they impact other people, then we have to pay the price for that. Sadly, however, there's laws that prevent and mitigate our behavior. So if there's an opportunity to look at people's choices when they're in the bike lane and if their behavior is causing those places to be unsafe, then we should have a conversation about how we put limits on people's speed If they can't behave responsibly.

Peter Ladner: 48:00

Makes sense to me.

Eleanor McMahon: 48:01

We may have to do that. We do it with cars, peter, and, as I said earlier, in Ontario anyway, 87% of people are motorists, and cyclists too, and so I think this is just like any other group of road user. If people are not behaving well, then we have to say to them you know this is a privilege, not a right, and you need to govern yourself well and to ensure that you do, to protect you and the people around you, we're going to put limits on your speed and then do enforcement, peter.

Peter Ladner: 48:33

Wow, it's so great hearing your story, and I hesitate to say this, but I think that part of your story is your strength as a person and your connections and your energy, and if there were one of you in every province in Canada, we'd be well on our way. But failing that, we'll see you as an example of what can be done from a personal level. And, of course, your strength is in mobilizing other people to do the work together and bringing all these people together. What a great story.

Eleanor McMahon: 49:03

Well, thank you. Happy to chat anytime.

Is it all over for trains on the abandoned E&N Rail line stretching 289 kilometres along Vancouver Island?

Alastair Craighead, Chair of Friends of Rails to Trails Vancouver Island, thinks so, and is one of many people working with regional districts, municipalities, businesses and land-owning First Nations to convert these derelict tracks into a world-class trail network.

Peter Ladner talks with him about the millions of dollars already invested in planning this cycle route, and what has to happen to complete it.

Release Date: July 03, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. All over BC, cyclists and tourism promoters are justifiably excited about converting abandoned rails to trails, and they have been doing this for decades. There have been some notable successes the Kettle Valley Railway, even the Arbutus Greenway in Vancouver. But maybe the biggest dream is the 289-kilometer E&N Rail line on Vancouver Island, stretching from Courtney to Victoria. My guest today is one of the champions of this conversion of that rail line into trails Alistair Craighead. He's the chair of the Friends of this conversion of that rail line into trails, alistair Craighead. He's the chair of the Friends of Rail Trail Vancouver Island. Welcome, alistair.

Alastair Craighead: 1:11

Good afternoon, Peter. It's a pleasure to be here.

Peter Ladner: 1:14

Alistair, you're based in Victoria and you have some history already with converting rails to trails in Victoria. How did you get involved in that and tell us what that was about?

Alastair Craighead: 1:26

We got involved in about 1987. We decided that another unused railway that runs from Victoria through to Sooke and also out to Saanich. We saw the real potential for doing something there that would connect all of the communities as the railway once did, something there that would connect all of the communities as the railway once did. And so what we did? To begin with, we started the Greater Victoria Cycling Coalition and the first project of the Cycling Coalition was to get that conversion started.

Peter Ladner: 1:57

And it's been a remarkable success. As far as I can tell, and I guess what happened there has whetted your appetite for this much bigger project, and I wonder if you could just describe in your dreams if all your dreams came true, what would it look like?

Alastair Craighead: 2:15

Well, in actual fact, I'd say the Galloping Goose really is a model, because it's an active transportation corridor that's used for many things. It's used for people commuting, it's used for recreation, it's used for many things. It's used for people commuting, it's used for recreation, it's used for anybody who wants to get out and get away from cars, really. So to see that extended up island, and it would be an extension, because if we extend that up island, that will connect not just the island but through ferries, it would provide a circle route which would go all the way around. So you'd come in at Swarch Bay, you'd go on the Galloping Goose, you'd go from the Galloping Goose to the Island Corridor Trail, you'd go up there to Comox, from Comox across to Powell River, down through the Sunshine Coast and back into Vancouver. So that, in fact, is the real dream. It could be part of a whole circle route. That would be absolutely amazing for tourism, nothing like anywhere else.

Peter Ladner: 3:11

Now you're talking about tourism and our new board member, colleen MacDonald, who wrote let's Go Biking, has made a comparison between BC and New Zealand in about comparable population sizes and they have something like a $1 billion plus cycle tourism industry. Has there been tourism interest in the Galloping Goose Trail? Do you have any data that people coming to Victoria to do that trail?

Alastair Craighead: 3:41

Well, we're interested in two ways. From tourism there's an organization on the island called 4VI or 4TVI. Now that's the old tourism Vancouver Island organization that was started to promote tourism. But the other element is we have also in our feasibility study some numbers there. We're talking in the millions here about how much economic impact it would have. Probably something like 100 million a year it would build to that. And that's not just an estimate. That's looking at another trail in the? U, the US, which is very similar in demographics and in fact on that trail it's not just an economic impact, it's a creator of business. On the Gap Trail about 40% of the businesses on that corridor corridor's called the Great Allegheny Passage. 40% of the businesses on that corridor owe their existence to that trail. So that's the kind of impact it can have.

Peter Ladner: 4:50

Okay, let's get into it. This project has been underway, or talked about, for many years, but you're not the only organization that has designs on this rail corridor. On this rail corridor, the Island Corridor Foundation seems to be promoting more of a mixed use of rail perhaps a little bit of freight, perhaps some commuting on the tracks, and you're saying that you think it should be no tracks, all biking and hiking. How are you?

Alastair Craighead: 5:23

reconciling those two Biking, hiking and active transportation generally. It's not so much a reconciliation, it's actually an either, or there is actually trail already developed in the capital region beside the rails. The rails in the capital region are not used and they won't be used. There's a study showing that that's not where LRT will eventually go in the capital city. It will go on the corridor where the highway is, so it won't be used. There's a study showing that that's not where LRT will eventually go in the capital city. It will go on the corridor where the highway is, so it won't be used.

Alastair Craighead: 5:49

Anyway, there was a lot of money spent $2 million a kilometer to start the last kilometer built beside the rails $3.4 million for that kilometer. That's clearly not feasible to do that all the way up island not feasible to do that all the way up island. On the other hand, we know there's no funding for rail. We have a good relationship with the ICS. We're quite cordial in our relationship. We just disagree in what the future is, and part of the reason for that is the ICF has in their purposes that a charitable organisation is to support rail. So their purposes have to be changed in order to get it to happen. Five First Nations tried to do that a couple of years ago and they ended up leaving the ICF because the ICF wouldn't change. So that motion is still there on the books, it just hasn't been dealt with.

Peter Ladner: 6:39

Just to be clear, ICF is the Island Corridor Foundation.

Alastair Craighead: 6:43

Island Corridor Foundation. It's a federal charitable organization.

Peter Ladner: 6:47

Now this route would have to go through many jurisdictions. You've got 13 municipalities, five regional districts and anywhere from several to 14 First Nations, depending on land claims. I guess Now in my earlier discussion with you you said getting the agreement of the First Nations is critical to this path going through. Can you elaborate a little bit on that and what's happened in that regard so far?

Alastair Craighead: 7:18

Well, the corridor actually runs through First Nations reserves. The original corridor. The land was basically taken away from the First Nations reserves. The original corridor the land was basically taken away from the First Nations. So, to cut a long story short again, they went to court. They got their land back. One of them has actually lifted the rails from the corridor through their First Nation reserve and put a trail in place. So that's kind of the direction we see most of the First Nations that are actually on the corridor going.

Alastair Craighead: 7:43

There's a number of other First Nations that may not be so keen. But going back to the whole, reasoning behind doing an alternative is that rail is simply not viable. I'd love to be able to step on a train in Victoria and go to Comox. Nothing, I'd like better. It's not going to happen.

Alastair Craighead: 8:01

Federal and provincial government have made it very clear over the past 10, 15 years that there's no funding for rail and I know that the ICF was told that again very, very recently. There's no money coming for rail, so the corridor is a default solution. It's likely to happen sooner or later. One thing everybody agrees on, including the ICF and us and this is one of the reasons we're able to talk is that the corridor is a very valuable transportation asset. It would be a shame to see it go. So when everybody's agreed on that and we know that rail is not viable, we're the default solution. So it gives us a little optimism. It may take a while. Galloping Goose took about 15 years to get built out and you know all the regional districts. Yes, there's five, but the Capital Regional District is the manager for the Galloping Goose Trail. They lease it from the provincial government. I've absolutely no doubt that that model would work for the whole island. It's very well managed by the regional districts a good management model.

Peter Ladner: 9:08

And it's not for lack of study that this project hasn't advanced. I see that the provincial government, the Ministry of Transportation now Transportation and Transit gave $600,000 to each of the jurisdictions at First Nations along the route to do consultant studies and so on. So there must be. What was the result of all those studies? Did that bring you any closer to agreement?

Alastair Craighead: 9:31

I don't know how quiet to put this. It's a little bit of a political football, because a decision has to be made and the whole idea that the government would do this study came from a court a potential court decision that was going to give the land back to the First Nations and basically say that's the end of rail in the corridor if you don't put the money up right away to do it. So the government knows it's a waste of time to try and put money into rail, so they don't want to put the money there, so they start the project. It's been renewed three times. It started off as 18 months. We're over two years now and it's got another six months to run. So we're not too sure.

Alastair Craighead: 10:12

That's necessarily where the answer is going to come from. But there is to some extent a deferment by the regions to the First Nations. There's one First Nation, that's Nenonoas, north of Nanaimo, who are doing a study off the whole corridor using the funding that you mentioned earlier, peter, and we're very optimistic that that will be the best of the studies that will be done. We've seen one completed and you know, one of the first things the study says is we're not going to make a decision on what we think would be best for the corridor. Well, enough said.

Peter Ladner: 10:55

So this is 289 kilometers and I know there are offshoots to Port Alberni and Lake Cowichan that are all part of the plan but, as you said, it was 15 years just to get the galloping goose going. Clearly it's not all going to happen overnight. Are there some sections that would work short of the whole thing? That would be incremental improvements that are reasonably doable early on, given that your studies show that the cost of this is around $600,000 per kilometer.

Alastair Craighead: 11:28

That's right. That cost is about the same as the North Okanagan Trail. It was started by a First Nation who got a $12 million Splats and First Nation. They got a grant from the Federal Active Transportation Fund. Comox is probably the least of a political football, partly because the rails have already been lifted there by a First Nation that's just known as First Nation. So the rails are up there for two kilometers. You're not going to build a railway somewhere else to make up the two kilometers. So we're kind of optimistic. And the other thing is that the Trans-Canada Trail has given us a letter of support for that section. They're supporting that, that section go to trail and they've got a fair bit of influence.

Peter Ladner: 12:17

So that would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail.

Alastair Craighead: 12:20

That would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail Now the Trans-Canada Trail south of that on the island, a large part of it's on an old logging road called the Niagara Main. It is not a pleasant bike ride. It's better than nothing. But if we see that Nanaimo section go to the Trans-Canada Trail, I think that would probably drive the process further south as well. That's only one scenario, but that's a possibility.

Peter Ladner: 12:47

Well, if the Nanaimo to Comox one were done, you would have another circle route to Powell River, to Comox, nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay. Indeed, you would, yes, you would have another circle route to Powell River, to Comox, nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay.

Alastair Craighead: 12:55

Indeed, you would. Yes, you're absolutely right, that would be a shorter circle, but that potential is there all the time too, and it's one of the keys. I mean, we're seeing car-free ferries, if you like to call them that, beginning to operate out of Nanaimo and are very successful, so we may see more of that from other parts of the island too. It's getting very, very expensive to go to Vancouver in a car from the island, so I think the potential for these ferries that would carry passengers and bikes as well is very good.

Peter Ladner: 13:26

Well, I know just a side note on that that the BC Cycling Coalition and Hub Cycling are both working with and pushing the ferries to be more cycle friendly. Yes, so who else is involved? We've mentioned governments and your organization, but are there businesses like Tourism Victoria I don't even know if there is such a thing or Destination BC, or the Ministry of Tourism? Are there others who share your excitement about the tourism potential, who are willing to support it both politically and financially?

Alastair Craighead: 14:01

Yes, indeed, the organization that I mentioned earlier. They call themselves 4VI and they were originally called Tourism Vancouver Island, but the 4 stands for the four sustainabilityples that they use for future tourism. So they're also working quite closely with First Nations and they're very clearly in support of our trail. They're very careful politically about how they say that, but we know them well and we know that we've got their support.

Peter Ladner: 14:30

Well, without trying to make generalizations about First Nations or double guess what they're thinking and doing, can you give us any indications of? Is there a consensus among the First Nations about how this corridor, what we?

Alastair Craighead: 14:47

call the island corridor. That's the coast corridor. There's the coast corridor which is 225 kilometres and then, as you mentioned, there's a spur off to Porto Berni. But off those five First Nations the Snaanaanaas has their land back, the Halaal is another First Nation who they want their land back, and the Cowichan First Nations, which is one of the biggest First Nations groups on the island, they also want their land back. So the corridor is going to be broken in three places.

Alastair Craighead: 15:20

And we've actually spoken to two of the other First Nations. I mentioned perhaps the Cowichan first. We spoke to them about two years ago and they did not want a trail on the corridor through their reserve, where it was located, but they'd be quite happy to reroute a trail either around the outside of the reserve or through a different part of that reserve. So we believe they're somewhat amenable. Uh, the last time we spoke to them was that we made a presentation. They said well, we're definitely not saying yes, but we're not saying no either. So they're obviously watching to see how the winds go and I think the Sinaloa study may be the one that actually drives it for First Nations.

Alastair Craighead: 16:02

But that's the First Nations on the corridor and they're the ones that are most important, two other First Nations in Victoria. The Esquimalt First Nation is one of them. The trail in the capital region is already built around their reserve. Well, it kind of shows that it can be done. So it's already there. So we believe First Nations and many other parts of Canada really see benefit coming because it allows them to have people exposed to their culture. And in fact, the Splatsen First Nation, who are responsible for the North Okanagan Trail. They saw the potential for them as a First Nation to have a trail like that going through their traditional lands, their traditional territory. They saw it as a connector for their traditional territory. We've spoken to them about that and we thought that was very interesting that they saw that potential as a benefit for the First Nation.

Peter Ladner: 17:06

Well, I remember when greenways were being introduced in Vancouver and there were people alongside the route saying, well, we don't want these cyclists, you know, crowding our neighborhood. But it was quickly pointed out that people on bicycles are about the least intrusive visitors you can ask for. They can't. They're not going to break into your house and steal your TV and take it home on their bicycle. They're just and they don't make any noise, they don't make any pollution. They may stop and buy a meal or an ice cream cone or stay somewhere. So it does, on the surface, sound like a big benefit for any territory that's got this trail.

Alastair Craighead: 17:40

Absolutely. We ran into that with the Galloping Goose. There was a girls' school actually on the route and they were very expressive of their concerns about what might happen to the girls with all the riffraff from town coming out past their school. But it quite quickly calmed down and you know, right now I mean practically every politician that was elected eventually was a person that started the galloping goose. You know, everybody claimed it was their own and that's where we want to get. We want to disappear and give it to other people, let them think they did this. It's one of the things that might work politically. Do we want to disappear and give it to other people? Let them think they did this? It's one of the things that might work politically.

Peter Ladner: 18:18

Are the lessons from the Galloping Goose transferable to the rest of the route? Well, some of them are Because it's got a higher built-up density and there would be more commuter and utilitarian trips rather than tourist trips.

Alastair Craighead: 18:39

But some of that route goes through some pretty uninhabited territory. Well, not really I don't want to contradict you, but it goes through some beautiful territory and it is unspoiled. But there's about almost 40 small settlements on that corridor on the coast corridor, and the average distance between them is less than 10 kilometers. So that allows for a lot of potential for local people to use this corridor for active transportation. You've got an electric bike. You can get to a store in five kilometers. Why are you going to jump in your car on a beautiful day? So there's potential there. Anyway, you look at it really.

Peter Ladner: 19:10

Well, I did read that 10% of the population of vancouver island lives within sorry 80 of the population is within 10, 5 to 10 kilometers of this rail.

Alastair Craighead: 19:18

So it is a central spine it is a central spine, a connector spine and, as I say, the demographics are very, very similar to the gap trail in pennsylvania, which is about the same demographics with people close to the corridor, and it's an amazing success.

Peter Ladner: 19:35

So what's next? What are your next steps? What are you waiting for? What's the best chance of a breakthrough?

Alastair Craighead: 19:42

Well, yeah, you can call this the tipping point if you like, but there's really more than one tipping point. One of the tipping points that was of a lot of concern to people was well, is rail coming back? Well, I think we're long past that. You'll still find lots of people say they want to. You know, you'll get thousands of people on a petition saying we'd love to have rail I'd be one of them, but there's no rail coming by.

Peter Ladner: 20:07

the economics just doesn't work just hold that thought for a second. The couch and valley regional district did a survey and 79 percent of people say use it for passenger rail, 49 percent said hiking and biking and 42 percent said freight rail. And the island uh corridor foundation, which, as you said, has built into its purposes that they have to do something about rail, is championing this high rail thing where you kind of get a bus, that's, that's when you you can have the wheels and then it pops up. Some things pop down on it, like those, those four, those pickup trucks that go on the rail tracks and it can be a little commuter through a section and they have found, apparently, that that's operating somewhere around Lillooet. They think that might be useful for a certain section of this trail. Is that a non-starter in your view?

Alastair Craighead: 20:56

I think the one that operates in Lillooet is operating as a kind of school bus and it might carry about 100 people a day. The cost of reestablishing this corridor? Remember it's closed for safety reasons. The corridor is broke. As far as rail is concerned, the existing infrastructure is no good. So are you going to spend several hundred million dollars to run a school bus? I don't think so.

Peter Ladner: 21:22

Okay. So I was asking about your next breakthrough and you were just saying it won't be rail. So then what?

Alastair Craighead: 21:28

Well, we're quite confident that we've passed that kind of tipping point, that rail is coming back, but we've got to get to the point where. How does this happen? There's many ways it could happen. It can happen through one regional district, it can happen through one First Nation.

Alastair Craighead: 21:41

The way the Galloping Goose really took off was a politician, a minister of the Crown, andrew Pedder. You may know his name, I think he was the chair of Simon Fraser. Latterly Anyway, we spoke to him, the president of Simon Fraser, president a big part. He at that time was responsible for an organization called the Capital Commission, which is now gone, unfortunately, and he picked this up and he ran with it. And another politician whose name you probably remember, mose Hota. He joined in and that was really where the thing took off. Someone at some level who is a decision maker has to champion this at some point. We really don't have anybody identified yet, but we think that as the pressure mounts from business, from tourism, that it's likely somebody will have the vision to see this, because when you actually look at this on paper and we look at the studies that have been done, you look at how successful the trails have been. You mentioned New Zealand. That's right in our feasibility study. I mean, I hate to use the term no-brainer, but it kind of is.

Peter Ladner: 22:49

Well, we are going to be championing this at our regional summit in Kimberley September 10th to the 12th. Colleen MacDonald will be there and try to bring people together and do these next steps, but it's interesting that we haven't yet seen any senior, influential politicians step out and try to own this and give it the leadership that it obviously needs.

Alastair Craighead: 23:13

Actually we did have one politician and I won't mention names, but one politician did a minister in the last government. She was very confident and very enthusiastic about it, but it was not something the government wanted to deal with at the time and I think that really is part of the problem. There's so many other issues at the moment that weren't there when we started the Galloping Goose, but I'm pretty confident at some point there is going to be an Andrew Pedder that will say this is a good news story. People love trails. We can make political capital out of this.

Peter Ladner: 23:54

And do you think that it will be the economic tourism potential that will make the difference?

Alastair Craighead: 24:00

I don't think necessarily that is the only thing that would make the difference. The Galloping Goose is still not promoted for tourism. It does get some tourism, especially up at the West End where it goes through an amazing area called the Sooke Potholes. It's second to none.

Alastair Craighead: 24:18

It's a scenic place in the west coast of the island. But there's lots of reasons why people would support this. Tourism is just one. But active transportation is growing. It's right there in the provincial government policy, the South Island Transportation Study. Two priorities are public transit and active transportation. Federal government. They had the fund. We got money from that fund. So it's kind of like there's a lot of things just waiting to happen there. I must admit, I'm kind of hoping I make it to your active transportation event this year because I'm sure it's going to be a pretty interesting discussion.

Peter Ladner: 24:56

Well, I hope so, and tell me more about your organization. I mean, you've been going for how long and how many people are involved with that and what does that take to keep it going.

Alastair Craighead: 25:07

I've been involved for five or six years years I think it was going for a few years before that but when I became involved we decided to actually become a provincial society and things took off. From then. It opened doors. We've seen the provincial transportation ministers two of them so far probably half a dozen times, but you really have to have the constituency to get this to happen and that's what we're really focused on building right now. We're focusing on Comox in the near future and we have a couple of business people up there involved with their organization, who are you know they've got some credibility when it goes to talk to the Chamber, when they go to talk to the Chamber of Commerce up there involved with their organization, who are you know they've got some credibility when it goes to talk to the chamber, when they go to talk to the chamber of commerce. And you know we've got everything from university professors to economists on our board, you know, really good board, solid board, all of whom are working board members.

Peter Ladner: 26:01

That's fantastic and I want to give a plug to your video that you've done. You can tell people how to reach, I guess.

Alastair Craighead: 26:09

Fortvica is our website.

Peter Ladner: 26:11

Fortvica.

Alastair Craighead: 26:13

And there's lots of information on there.

Peter Ladner: 26:15

And you have there people like a councillor from Qualicum and a vineyard owner from the Couch and Valley, I think would love to see bikes coming by his place.

Alastair Craighead: 26:23

Well, the councillor for Qualicum is my favourite. I think he basically says everybody loves trains, but nobody wants to pay for them, so let's do a trail.

Peter Ladner: 26:32

And so I guess your job now is to cultivate more people like that, who will speak out and solicit support from their region.

Alastair Craighead: 26:38

Yes, there are more and more all the time we do a newsletter. It's well over a thousand now in circulation. We've got about 300 members and membership's growing, so it's growing steadily.

Peter Ladner: 26:49

Well, thank you so much, because this is one of those things that I particularly like as a cycling advocate, because it crosses so many different constituencies and it's not just a few geek cyclists, it's communities and hotels and commuters and families getting to school and doing their work and just visitors coming to BC. I know that the head of the Island Corridor Foundation dreams of having people coming to the World Cup to be doing this or some part of this route, so that'll be a quick turnaround, but hey, let's dream big.

Alastair Craighead: 27:24

Well, with a trail, it's all ages and abilities.

Peter Ladner: 27:28

Fantastic, yeah, around. But hey, let's, let's dream big. Well, with the trail, it's all ages and abilities. So fantastic, yeah. Well, we'll keep an eye on this, alistair, and maybe, uh, see you at our conference in kimberly in september. And I do hope so and, and hopefully the bc cycling coalition, can help you and other organizations like yours work on these projects and bring them to fruition. Thank you absolutely, absolutely.

Alastair Craighead: 27:45

We really appreciate that, peter. Thank you.

Check out Friends of Rails to Trains Vancouver Island HERE and be sure to watch their delightful video.

For another view on the corridor's future, see the Island Corridor Foundation.

How can we transform young children into lifelong cyclists? Maya Goldstein's innovative Kids on Wheels and School Bike Bus programs teach biking to children as young as age two, and bring out as many as 60 kids at a time to ride to school together. Listen up to find out how you can get your local young'uns on wheels before car culture takes hold.

Release Date: June 17, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. There's a saying attributed to the Catholic Church that if you can instill beliefs into a child before age six, they will become a convert for life. Our guest today, maya Goldstein, has taken this same approach to cycling, instilling a belief and a practice of cycling into children as young as age two, and she has developed two programs we're going to talk about today. One is Kids on Wheels and the other is a school bike bus program and brought kids into the world of cycling in a way that might never have happened were it not for those programs. Maya, welcome to the podcast.

Maya Goldstein: 1:11

Thank you, Peter. Thanks for inviting me. It's great to be here.

Peter Ladner: 1:14

I had the opportunity of riding with you and your husband, gilly, and your two kids now aged 10 and 6, two boys in your bike bus on the last day of the bike to school week last Friday. This is now we're talking about early June and I was reminded it reminded me of being on a critical mass ride because there was a whole swarm of kids all milling around, kind of weaving a little bit, and their parents. Your husband had the boom box going out front and when we came to an intersection there were too many kids to pass. During the time the light was green and we actually stopped traffic. I thought that was quite fun and, of course, other groups were joining us at different intersections along the way. By the time we got to your school it was a big biking party and I thought I imagine you would have been pretty happy at that result. Was that an unusually happy day for you?

Maya Goldstein: 2:11

Yeah, definitely Fridays. It's the day that we do bike bus in my kids' school and it's not just a happy day for me. I think it's a happy day for all participants in the bike bus, if it's kids, if it's parents. We also had the school's principal joining us once, a teacher, we had many guests and everyone that started day on the bike bus. Just have the best day after that.

Peter Ladner: 2:36

You can't not well, that's our dirty little secret among cyclists that when you start your day riding somewhere, you you're having a happy day. But before we get to that, I want to go back to Kids on Wheels, which is a program for preschoolers, age two to four, to get them on the balance bikes the very beginning of cycling. Can you tell me how that program works and why you were drawn to start it up?

Maya Goldstein: 3:09

drawn to start it up. Yeah, so Kids on Wheels. It's a program for children starting at age two and going all the way to preschool, age four, and even we do in community center till age six. How I got started with Kids on Wheels takes me back to when I did my master's at UBC. I did it in the Faculty of Education and kind of as a side job. I also worked at childcare centers and since I got to see a variety of different daycares and centers.

Maya Goldstein: 3:36

What I noticed is that there was a big car culture in many of the classes and outside in the courtyard or where they played, but there was nothing about biking.

Maya Goldstein: 3:49

There were no bikes around for them to practice, there were no bicycle toys, there were no books.

Maya Goldstein: 3:58

It was all very much car-dominated trucks and that's all the kids kind of got to to be familiar with.

Maya Goldstein: 4:06

So I thought that's interesting and also I found it a little bit problematic because I think it should be open to different mode of transportations and as someone who really loves, I could see a huge benefit for kids to start biking as an early age, but also for them to be exposed to it as kind of a daily life, something that you can do as a commute you can go to daycare with your bike, you can go to the beach, you can go to the park. So I developed this program that it's not only for kids to be practicing balance bikes outside, it's also about getting them familiar with the concept of biking as your daily, daily life. So we read books, we do art activities, we have one day, which is really fun, where they get to create their own maps, so places where they can go biking around Vancouver or wherever the program is, and it's really kind of expand their minds of what is doable and what they can do on the bikes and also they impact their families that way.

Peter Ladner: 5:20

Maya, you're talking about being at a preschool and kids learning this as part of their way of being throughout the year.

Peter Ladner: 5:29

But the Kids on Wheels program has evolved or become a one-week program that's offered through community centers and so on, and you had worked for the BC Cycling Coalition in making this happen and now it has expanded somewhat in making this happen and now it has expanded somewhat.

Peter Ladner: 5:49

But it's one of the problems I want to have to feel I have to address is the funding model, because it does depend on external grants.

Peter Ladner: 5:56

We've typically got them from the Canada summer jobs, from the federal government, and the parents only pay I would call it a token amount like 125 bucks or something for a one week of summer supervision, daycare-ish kind of programming. And this has turned into a bit of a problem because this year we have not got all the grants we require at the BC Cycling Coalition and we're having a problem finding ways to finance it. So I'll just put that out there and if there are any listeners who are passionate about this and haven't already heard our fundraising pitches, we'd love to hear from you and have some support from you, because this is the way to make it go. Now, maya, you developed this program so that it can be picked up anywhere in the province or, I suppose, anywhere in the world? Tell me the framework that you offer, that now is offered through the BC Cycling Coalition, which enables, say, a community center or a preschool to pick this up and do it on their own, a preschool to pick this up and do it on their own.

Maya Goldstein: 7:04

So there's a lot of ways where people around the province or community center can pick it up. We can offer training. It's not very complicated to learn. A lot of early childhood educators can do it on their own. Everything is child-based and child-friendly and, like I said, a lot of games and a lot of play and kids just love it. The program itself is not very long it's top one and a half hours because we know that the attention span of kids is limited, especially in that age. So we kind of frame it that it fits children a different age, if they're really young and need to nap in the middle of the day, or if they're really young and need to nap in the middle of the day, or if they're very active and need to get their energy out. So it's really kind of perfect for everyone.

Peter Ladner: 7:53

Well, I've mentioned the funding challenges, but what are some of the other barriers? If somebody wanted to do this at their community center or preschool or something I can imagine you'd need to find the bicycles for one thing.

Maya Goldstein: 8:06

Yeah. So the bicycles if we want it, through Kids on Wheels, through the BC Cycling Coalition here in Vancouver, we actually provide the bikes. We have the bikes here, we have helmets, we have all of the setup to go so we can come to the daycare and have bikes to every child. We have different sizes, different size helmets. We have the stop signs to set up the traffic garden outside. We have the books. We have all the equipment.

Maya Goldstein: 8:34

So some of the challenges are not actually around that part. It's more about the space where they can run the program if it's the outdoor part or a gym and then the storage, because if we come for a week for a child care center, we do want them to store the bike for that period of time. So those challenges are not um, I think we can overcome them easily. We can always find a corner where we can stock the bikes for a week. The advantages here is that the bikes are really small. They're not big. When we think of bikes sometimes we think of adult bikes, but really balanced bikes are very small. So even 20 of them, they don't take that much room.

Peter Ladner: 9:18

Well, what if somebody in Prince George wanted to do this, though, and they don't have access to the bikes that the BC Cycling Coalition has they? How would they go about that? They would have to get their own bikes.

Maya Goldstein: 9:29

Yeah, yeah, they would need to get their own bikes or children can are also invited to bring their own bikes. But I think that BC Cycling and Kids on Wheels are now partnered with Strider Bikes so we can offer a package deal for community centers or places that they want to run the program. We're actually working right now with denman island and they're going to get those strider bikes from strider through kids on wheels and they can start their own kids on wheels on denman island. We also worked also worked in Victoria with Pisces and they started Kids on Wheels over there and they got the bikes Also, mostly through Strider. So definitely there's ways to get those bikes and get the Kids on Wheels program started in other places around the province.

Peter Ladner: 10:21

I would assume that the parents have to be pretty closely involved with this. They may be present during the whole time. And what's it been like getting parents who may not be cyclists themselves, or maybe just not that knowledgeable? What's it like getting them involved?

Maya Goldstein: 10:39

Yeah, parents, we have two programs actually in the community center. One is parents participation, that parents need to be there. That's more for younger kids till age four, two to four. And then we have a program also for slightly older kids from three to six, and parents are not required to stay. So there's two options.

Maya Goldstein: 11:01

But really for the parents if they're not cyclists it's not a requirement. They're not even getting on their bikes for this program. They really just need to be there to be engaged with their kids, to be happy and kind of encourage them and help them. But it's not a whole lot on the parent side but what it does it does do is that the parents feel more confident to get their kids outside with a balanced bike. We practice stopping so they know if they say stop the child needs to listen, because they learned it in the program kids starting to recognize stop signs, they're recognizing crosswalks, so they know not just not to continue. They learn to wait for the parents and I think for some parents this is huge and then they feel more comfortable just letting their kids go out with their balance bike when they're really little.

Peter Ladner: 11:59

This started when you were doing your master's degree in education. Have you done any research? Has anybody done any research on the difference between kids who go through kids on wheels and their later cycling habits, and those who don't?

Maya Goldstein: 12:14

Yeah, I don't know if specifically on kids on wheels, but there has been a lot of research done on balanced bike compared to bikes with training wheels and definitely the answer is that balanced bikes are kind of the more natural way to learn how to bike pedal bikes because you really can separate the balancing part from like everything else. So they learn how to balance. So naturally they can move on to pedal bikes without fear because now they learn how to balance. So what we recommend is to move from balance bike to pedal bike.

Maya Goldstein: 12:57

Don't go to that training wheel stage because that will set them backwards. Now, if they go back to training wheels, they lost everything that they gained with balance bikes because now they're on these wobbly training wheels. I've seen it with my own kids how they in 15 minutes picked it up from being ready to pedaling, and I've seen it with other kids it's not just my kids like someone who practiced balance bike for a while. They glide, they feel comfortable, they lift their feet. Kids know when they're ready and they will kind of tell you or you'll kind of pick it up and then they'll be ready to go to move on to pedal bikes.

Peter Ladner: 13:37

Well, speaking of moving on, maya, let's we're going to leave that one behind and just again say that the BC Cycling Coalition continues to promote this program. It has all this information available and we'd love to hear from anybody who wants to bring this into the community. But you have moved on to hub cycling and done something again with your own kids. That's turned into a province-wide initiative the bike bus program. How did you get started on a bike bus? What is a bike bus anyway?

Maya Goldstein: 14:10

So a bike bus is a group of kids biking to school together, usually on a planned route, on a sent route, with adult supervising, so adults are there to kind of guide the ride and be in the middle, be in the back, but really it's the children who are kind of taking taking the road, taking the lead, taking the initiative and just getting to school. It all it all. It is it's their route, that they do to school but they're on bikes and with they are with friends and they do to school but they're on bikes and they are with friends and they get to connect with friends before school, they get to chat, they get to not be driven to school and it's just really, really fun. And yeah, you need to see it at action to kind of experience it and see how cheerful the kids are.

Peter Ladner: 14:55

I would agree with that and we will have a picture up on the podcast to show that. But in your case, the one I participated in, everybody had to meet at a certain place, so you've got to have a rendezvous place to start and you presumably don't need a protected bike route to do this. You're just out on the regular.

Maya Goldstein: 15:15

These were residential streets, but there's the safety in numbers aspect that makes it work yeah, yeah, we start, um, every bike bus start starting stop one, we call it or meet up point, but we do pick up kids along the way. That's kind of what makes it the concept of a bus, uh, that there's stops along the way. Our group is really big right now so we don't officially stop on the ride and kids joining, we slow down, they join, it's kind of they flow together. Kids get very excited. Also, the kids that are waiting in the stop to see the bike bus coming, and also the kids that are riding to see their friends in the corner joining. It's always hi, good morning. How are that are riding to see their friends in the corner joining? It's always hi, good morning. How are you good to see you? And they're just, it's really nice to hear them kind of being so nice to each other and happy to see each other what's the biggest bike bus you've ever been on?

Maya Goldstein: 16:11

the biggest bike bus I've been on was the one in portland. I can tell you that story and how I got started, because bike buses are worldwide and Portland really picked it up with coach Sam Balto. I went to that bike bus just before I started my own, so over two years ago. I heard about this bike bus in Portland. This is really how I got familiar with the concept, so I joined the, I took my bike, I took the train down to Portland, met Sam Balto. He's one of the main leaders now in the bike bus movement and just joined his bike bus. It was very similar to what you saw on Friday a group of kids biking to school. Their route was very similar actually not that much longer but so many kids and it was so cheerful. And even though I already had that idea in my mind and kind of started promoting it in my school, that's when it kind of clicked that I have to do it, I have to get it going. It was just so, so, so awesome. But for our bike bus, I think the one last Friday was one of the biggest.

Maya Goldstein: 17:21

We have every now and then kind of special events, so that was the end of bike to school week. We've done it in the last two years. The end of bike to school week tends to be big. We also do an Earth Day bike bus around Earth Day. That one typically is big as well. Bike paths around Earth Day that one typically is big as well. And then just the spring is a great time to get a bigger turnout of kids. But we also run it around over the winter and going through rainy days and windy days and everything, the biggest bike path. I think we had over 60 kids riding and it's just so so much fun. And it's so much fun even if you're walking to school because you see that kind of sworn of kids biking and the music and the cheerfulness.

Peter Ladner: 18:19

What does it take to get a bike bus going at a school? If someone wanted to start one up, you would probably, I assume, have to get the cooperation of the school itself, some kind of liability questions, and then a whole lot of parents would have to show up.

Maya Goldstein: 18:37

Can you just run us through the different ways that people have to get involved in order to make this work, the different ways that people have to get involved in order to make this work. So, yeah, there's different ways to start a bike bus. The way I run it in my kids' school is parent-led. So, like I said, I had the idea, the initiative, and I took it to the Parents Advisory Council, the PAC Every school has a PAC and kind of asked them what do you think about this idea? At that point I was not involved in the pack.

Maya Goldstein: 19:04

I was a parent and one of the reasons I got the bike bus started is because, as a parent and I had one child in the school at that time we didn't feel very connected to our school community. It was kind of post-COVID times and when he started kindergarten there wasn't a whole lot going on in terms of after-school programs, way to meet friends, so we felt we kind of missed on a lot of those social interactions. So that was one of the reasons I got to I got the idea of getting it started. The other one is that we were one of the very few families kind of biking regularly to school and I always came with my son and there were, the bike racks were just empty and it was just. It made me really sad because we we do have good bike racks in the school, so it's not about like where would you leave the bike that some other schools face, it was just, um, I don't know.

Maya Goldstein: 20:11

I didn't know what it was, why kids weren't biking to school that much and when, when we got started, we were very few. We have a picture of our first bike bus. We're barely like 20 people there with parents and all that. And then we decided we'll keep it going every Friday. So it's really about keeping it consistent, the commitment and being there and getting other kids and parents excited and involved. But also, when you get it going and you get it started, you see that it's not that complicated and once you're there and you have that commitment, yeah, you can do it every Friday and it's just seeing the excitement. It's just really, really worth it.

Peter Ladner: 20:57

But there are some things that have to happen. You have to have parents who have bicycles who can come along for the ride, so you have to have cycling parents. Was that a? Have you made some parents into cycling parents in order to make this happen?

Maya Goldstein: 21:11

yeah, um for sure there's some parents that started biking again thanks to the bike bus. We heard stories about parents saying, oh, I haven't biked in 15 years, but now my kids, they really want to do the bike bus. So we dug up this old bike and made it work and now we bike into school. For some parents, they started biking to work because of the bike bus, because they're already there with their bikes. So it's like, oh, now just biking to work because of the bike bus, because they're already there with their bikes. So it's like, oh, now just continue to work. So it's really it's impacting in so many different levels. It's not just the kids on the bike bus or just the parents, it's also the whole school community. Even if you're not on route or you're not on the bike bus, you just see that excitement. We have kids from different directions that started biking because it kind of normalizes it.

Peter Ladner: 22:00

Do you have kids who walk along because you're not going very fast?

Maya Goldstein: 22:04

Yeah, this Friday we had a kid who was running alongside, but we don't usually get kids who are walking. I mean there are kids that are walking that are not part of the bike bus. Walking, I mean there are kids that are walking that are not part of the bike bus. We did have over this winter a couple of times where the roads were just too icy. We had the snowstorm and after that 8th Avenue, where we go, wasn't cleared, so it wasn't safe to get the kids out on their bikes. So instead we decided to do a walking bus or walking school bus, and just started at the same midpoint, went along the same route, we started a little bit earlier to give people more time to walk, and it was really, really fun to just we actually got other kids who don't bike normally, so they joined us for the walk.

Peter Ladner: 22:57

Now you've taken this individual effort and you're now working for Hub Cycling since last fall. Tell me what you're doing and again, I think you've got some funding from the provincial government to roll this out.

Maya Goldstein: 23:11

Yeah, since I already mentioned how we did the walk-in school bus just twice this year, I want to mention another program called the Walk-in School Bus that is run by Society for Children and Youth of BC and this is our delivery partner, who we work with and thanks to this provincial funding. And walk-in school bus is the same idea that kids walk together with groups, with supervised leaders, and this program is actually happening in some schools every day. So it's a way for kids to walk to school, to and back from school with supervised leaders, with friends, and get to school by walking.

Peter Ladner: 23:55

When you talk about supervised leaders for these walking school buses, are these paid people from the school or are they parents that have to go through some kind of screening, or how does that work?

Maya Goldstein: 24:06

Yeah. So for the walking school buses, they have two models. So one is a parent-led, like we do with parents volunteers, but the other one that's the one that they now started going in Vancouver Island it's paid leaders, so they hire people to walk these kids, and it's really also to give parents a little bit more time, a little bit more freedom, so parents don't have to walk with their kids to school in this program and they don't need to be there at pickup to pick them up. So it's really also about getting some time back to the parents. Some parents find this particular time of day very challenging, so having that option is amazing in some communities, for some parents, for working parents.

Maya Goldstein: 24:57

With our bike bus program we have trained instructors that are doing the bike bus programs in schools. They are the ones who are leading the hub cycling bike buses. They are trained, they have their criminal record checked, they have first aid training. They're very, very knowledgeable about working with children and interacting with children. So it's really a great kind of partnership. And to bring everything that hub cycling teaches in schools about road safety and how to behave on the road. This is when they really get to put it in practice, because this trip to school. It's something that they do every day, every single day.

Peter Ladner: 25:47

Is this program available anywhere in BC?

Maya Goldstein: 25:50

So it's available now in Metro Vancouver. We have three bike buses running through the program in Vancouver and we have one in South Surrey and then we are working with Capital Bike on Vancouver Island that they have one bike bus started this spring in Saanich and we really hope to get it more province-wide and into the interior hopefully the north in the next school year.

Peter Ladner: 26:19

And is that up to you to do that, or do you expect somebody to contact Hub Cycling and ask to be involved?

Maya Goldstein: 26:26

It's really I don't have a defined answer right now. Right now our goal is to continue with Capital Bike on Vancouver Island to get them to do one or two more bike buses and then hopefully maybe in the spring we can get it into other places. We really need a community partner to do that. What I learned through this program is that basic knowledge is key when we do our route planning. Even when we did the one for Surrey, I don't know South Surrey at all, so we really needed that key parent volunteer to help us with the mapping where it would make sense to do the bike bus.

Maya Goldstein: 27:18

And I went to South Surrey actually last week to join that bike bus and it was just amazing for me to see all the work we have done, kind of put it into action and see, oh, this is the route, this is what I saw like on Google Maps or Google Earth. This is how they do it and it's been two months since they started, so not that long. But everyone knows exactly what they're doing. The parents know where they need to crop, the parents know where they need to crop, the kids know where they need to be. They have like a few groups like us joining along the way and they know to wait and then kind of join for the bike bus, so it really can work everywhere.

Peter Ladner: 28:00

Well, I would assume that there would be some organic growth to some parent who heard about it at another school or their kid moved to a different school and they wanted to get it going. Has that happened where you don't even have to be involved and the parents just figured it out and made it happen?

Maya Goldstein: 28:17

Yeah for sure.

Maya Goldstein: 28:18

Even before I started this role at Hub Cycling as the bike bus manager, I got contact a lot from other parents, from other schools.

Maya Goldstein: 28:27

That's really what also got me to talk to Hub Cycling or to other organizations about running a bike bus program, because I saw that there was really a need and what parents or teachers or whoever wants to start a bike bus what they really need is that initial support. They're they're a little bit lost with how to to get it started. But once you get them through the the stages and how it works and once they get it started, like I say, many of them realize it's not that complicated. It does require commitment and it requires community efforts, but they can, they can, they can run it. And the idea also with our hub cycling program is that eventually it will pass on to the parents to continue the effort on their own and then we can use our resources to get other schools started to get more kids biking. And definitely it's like a snowball effect More kids want to join because they see their friends and more schools want to join because they see other schools doing it.

Peter Ladner: 29:33

I assume some of the information about starting these up is available online through the Hub Cycling website.

Maya Goldstein: 29:39

Yes, yes, yeah, we did put resources for parents-led bike buses to help more schools and more municipalities to get bike buses started.

Peter Ladner: 29:50

I'm going to ask you the same question as with the kids on wheels. Is there any data that shows that kids who, for example, start riding to school on the bikes through the bike buses or walking through the walking school buses?

Maya Goldstein: 30:07

continue doing that when the supports are taken away and they get older. One of the interesting, I think, studies around that is around actually activism and how children feel empowered that they do something around climate change, that this is how they can contribute to their environment. It starts small, it starts with one day a week when they're biking to school, but it's really something that they feel ownership about. It's also about good connections, not just with the school community but with your school, like you're getting to school First of all, it was your choice. You brought yourself to school. You biked yourself to school First of all. It was your choice. You brought yourself to school. You biked yourself to school. You weren't driven, you weren't like taking from point A to point B in like a close space. You made that decision. You're back to school and you're like we said, your whole day will be better if you started it with biking and being with a group of friends.

Peter Ladner: 31:04

Something that occurs to me, a benefit of this which I discovered with my own children when they were in elementary school. At one point they wanted to do a field trip to one of the Gulf Islands, but it required all the kids to have a bike and the bike had to be in working order. So the school organized a mechanics day where you could bring your broken down bike and they'd oil the chain and get it all working. And I would imagine once a kid has been up on a bike bus, now they have a working bike and they can start to do whatever they do on a bike and ride around and have fun with each other. Have you found that to be the case?

Maya Goldstein: 31:41

Oh yeah, definitely so. Now because we have more bikes and more kids biking to school. Many kids stay after school and all they want to do is bike around the school. In our school these last few weeks we also have the school streets program, so we have a closed block outside just in front of the school with no traffic before and after school. So it gives kids a little bit more of extra space where they can practice their skills.

Maya Goldstein: 32:13

On Fridays we have bike ramps that we put outside and they can practice, you know, a little bit more of this risky play and going on the bike ramps and going up and down. It makes the whole experience of school a lot more fun. And for kids who are having a hard time at school, this is really exciting because this is something that connects them with other friends outside school and also connects them with friends who are not necessarily in their classrooms. So for children who might be struggling socially in their classrooms, then they get the opportunity to connect with kids who are biking, not in their classes, but they have something in common right off the bat they are biking. They don't need to talk much, they don't need to interact that much, but they are biking around, they're going fast, they're having fun. It's just really, really great to see that.

Peter Ladner: 33:13

Wow, it's a very heartwarming story, Maya. Is there anything? I think we have to wrap it up, but is there anything else you'd like to add that we haven't covered?

Maya Goldstein: 33:21

One of the stories I want to mention in terms of infrastructure, of doing with our own bike bus.

Maya Goldstein: 33:27

If you notice that intersection, when you said McDonald's and when our group started to grow last year, we noticed that we don't have enough time to cross that intersection. So I contacted the city of Vancouver and I asked them to add a few more seconds to that intersection and it wasn't just around the bike bus, because this intersection is close to the library, it's close to the supermarket, there's a lot of seniors that cross that road and it was just not enough time even if you're walking. So I gave them all those reasonings and they were very open and supportive and over the summer they worked on that and a few weeks after we got the bike bus started in this school year they increased our timing and it's been amazing. It just makes the difference if you have a few more seconds to cross that and I really hope that with our hub bike bus program we can get those changes into other routes where children are walking and biking to school, to just make it safer for everyone.

Peter Ladner: 34:35

Well, as with so many conversations about cycling, this one circles back to the need for safe infrastructure, because, although there is safety in numbers in the bike bus, you can go down and, let's say, any street with a whole bunch of kids and everybody's going to make way and give room. When those kids are out on their own.

Peter Ladner: 34:51

It's not the same, and I not only would I'm sure they learn that, but then they would be looking for safe places to cycle other than just around the schoolyard yeah, definitely we will continue our campaigning for that, as I'm sure you will, and these kids, hopefully, will become ambassadors for cycling in a way, and they and their parents will be demanding more safety along the lines of what you just described at that intersection.

Maya Goldstein: 35:21

Yeah, and I hope that we'll get to a point actually where bike buses are not needed, that we can do them because they're fun and it's a great community connection, but that kids feel safe enough and parents feel safe enough that they can let their kids biking or walking to school on their own.

Peter Ladner: 35:39

Well, thanks so much, maya, for all the good work you're doing and your example that you're setting and the guidance that you're providing everybody else and I would encourage anybody listening to step up and do the same. Do more, make it happen, because, as you've said, there are so many benefits and there's just a lot of happiness and community building and all that good stuff. So, thanks so much, maya.

Maya Goldstein: 36:03

Thank you, peter, thanks for having me here.

• SUPER CUTE Gordon Elementary Bike Bus CoV video June 2023

• HUB Bike Bus program (Funded by the BC Provincial Government Ministry of Transportation and Transit)

• Parent-led Bike Bus Resources

• Portland Bike

• BusesBike Bus World

Check out Maya's Bike Bus musings on Linkedin .

Contact Maya at maya.goldstein@bikehub.ca

What happens when 30,000 km of trail must serve hikers, cyclists and motorized users? In this episode, we sit down with Léon Lebrun, Director of Trails BC, to unpack nearly three decades of behind-the-scenes stories from the creation and evolution of the Trans Canada Trail.

From navigating conflicts between ATVs and hikers to pushing for local voices in trail management, Léon offers a candid look at the triumphs and tensions that have shaped one of the world’s longest recreational trails — and what still needs to be done in B.C.

Release Date: May 28, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today we're going to talk about the longest multi-use trail in the world, better known in our parts as the Trans-Canada Trail, and it's the result of the work of many people over many years. But perhaps in BC nobody has worked harder on this trail for more years than my guest today, Léon Lebrun, or in French, Léon Lebrun, 1995, as a school teacher, and at that point he was a school principal, and he's also been a festival organizer and he now is a director of Trails, bc.

Léon Lebrun: 1:12

Welcome, léon.

Peter Ladner: 1:12

Good afternoon, Léon. You say you were a festival organizer. What festival did you organize?

Léon Lebrun: 1:21

Oh well, I belonged to an organization called Société Maillard-Ville and as a member of this organization and I was a school principal at the time we decided to found a festival called the Festival du Bois. Oh yeah, and this is in Maillard-ardville, so in Mallardville. So at that time Mallardville was really quite French. When I went to school here in Mallardville, I spoke only French to start with, and at home we only spoke French, even though I was raised here in British Columbia, in this community called Mayerville.

Peter Ladner: 2:12

Does the Trans-Canada Trail go through Mayerville?

Léon Lebrun: 2:16

No, it doesn't actually.

Peter Ladner: 2:18

Oh.

Léon Lebrun: 2:20

But I mean, coquitlam is quite of course. Mayerville is in Coquitlam, and so it's in Coquitlam. It's quite large actually, and so the trail itself doesn't go through that community. No, not at all.

Peter Ladner: 2:39

How did you get involved with the Trans-Canada Trail? You must have fallen in love with it in some way to have devoted all these years, 29 years of involvement with it. How did that start?

Léon Lebrun: 2:54

Well, I guess I retired when I was 55 years of age, years of age, and soon after, when I'm turning 56.

Léon Lebrun: 3:12

I went to the Canada Trust at the time and at that, and found there that there was a brochure called the Trans-Canada Trail Concept so I picked it up and phoned the people there, because I've always been interested in trails and always brought the students and so on out to experience the wilderness and so on, and I thought, well, that's something I can do as a retired person and it turned out to be my career for the next 29 years.

Peter Ladner: 3:50

Are you a cyclist more or a hiker more, or just love the outdoors?

Léon Lebrun: 3:56

Well, I've been more of a hiker, I guess, but I've cycled a lot. I've led cyclists a lot.

Peter Ladner: 4:35

I've led cyclists, I've put out in our website for people and discovered, when these people would join me, how little they knew about their own community and is cycling on the Trans-Canada Trail a way to learn about your community?

Léon Lebrun: 4:47

Yes, I really believe that the best way to learn about your community is to first of all take your time, try to see what's around you, and the best way to do that, of course, if you're in nature as much as possible, of course, going through urban areas there's a lot of interesting things that people can stop and appreciate. In fact, our communities are very, very varied, and when people start realizing that there are more things to see than to just watch the ground as you're cycling away or walking, so could you describe how the trail works?

Peter Ladner: 5:42

Because it's not just a trail through the woods that goes across Canada. It mixes up, it goes through cities, it's all different forms. How does it work in the parts that you've worked on it?

Léon Lebrun: 5:54

well, I started this in 1996 and at that point we didn't have much of an idea what that trail was going to look like, because it's really equestrians that started the whole idea and the first thought was to hike really is what we were thinking about. So I started to explore all these trails, like the Bidding Powell Trail, the Centennial Trail, that kind of thing, the Ben Powell Trail, the Centennial Trail, that kind of thing, and there was this realization all of a sudden is that we weren't meeting the people when we were doing that kind of thing. It tended to be a solitary kind of thing, and so all of a sudden we had this idea that really our trails should connect our community somehow. And the realization was especially here in British Columbia is that our communities were not connected. Suggest a trail to connect with the next community.

Léon Lebrun: 7:08

We had to go and go to their maps. In other words, they concentrated on their own maps and if they had any trails there and of course they always did in communities such as this they kind of didn't think about the idea that they would somehow connect with other communities. So the whole idea of the Trans-Canada Trail was to connect communities and over time we started to learn about our First Nations as well, because a lot of these maps that we were looking at there were holes that were where the bands lived in their reserves, and so there was an attempt here to try to connect with First Nations. And it's in recent times where we're really making some strides with that, with a program that, with that, we call the Great Blue Heron Way.

Peter Ladner: 8:17

We won't get into a lot of detail the Great Blue Heron Way because that's a whole podcast in itself. But let me ask you generally do you think that the trail has in fact connected communities?

Léon Lebrun: 8:28

Yes, as a matter of fact, I think we were very successful in doing that, and one of the ways, of course, is to use the regional districts along the way and having them help coordinate that kind of thing.

Léon Lebrun: 8:49

And of course, regional districts think about connecting communities. So that was a good place to start, and it was the regional districts that would bring the representatives from each community to say, okay, what do you think about the Trans-Canada Trail, in a way, and and at that time I was ready to suggest how we might connect, and so the community say, through Metro Vancouver Regional Districts and the Fraser Valley Regional District, where I live, they jumped at the idea, actually, jumped at the idea, actually, and and so the way we managed to get started is to first of all explore all the various trails that were in these communities and then go to the planners and say what, what do you think about this? And of course, you can't get the planners to work until you talk to the councils, so they would invite us planners to work on this with us. So they were outside all the way. As a matter of fact, when it came to selling the idea of the Trans-Canada Trail, there was no selling to do Right away. People say well, of course.

Peter Ladner: 10:46

And who paid for it? I'm assuming there would be a lot of different funding sources, but did you have to find money in order to attract interest from these municipalities and regional districts?

Léon Lebrun: 11:01

Well, it works in a variety of ways. For sure, you need funding to do this kind of thing, but when you're presenting to the communities, they have their own infrastructure and we would suggest what already exists to start with. So and say, well, now we need to close some gaps in between that and try to get these communities to close the gaps. And we're still doing that to this day.

Peter Ladner: 11:38

The Trans Canada Trail Foundation now is. They give out grants for people of all different types of organizations to do these trails and they are working on the parts of the Castle Garden Nelson Trail. They help pay for a separated bike lane between Pandora and Government Street, right in the city of Victoria, and they are they are working on a trail between Ladysmith and Chimenas all over the province. Would you say that the Trans-Canada Trail is now complete?

Léon Lebrun: 12:11

Definitely not, far from it, I would say. However, there are provinces that are doing better than us. Quebec is a real good example of that. Prince Edward Island has done a magnificent job. They have a complete trail from one end of the province to the other. In Quebec, they've completed their trail as well, so those are the only two provinces that really have successfully done that. In British Columbia, we have huge gaps and, as you probably know, in British Columbia we have a lot of public land. In British Columbia, we have a lot of public land, and so it's not just a question of trying to make these connections between these communities. Somehow we have to get government involved and so on, and a huge percentage of British Columbia is crown land or public land. Now, some of it is in parks and we take advantage of that, but on the whole, there are some really very big gaps. There are some really very big gaps, and to try to close those gaps would take an awful lot of funding and it takes a lot of resources.

Peter Ladner: 13:57

Well, you're a director of Trails BC and I know Trails BC has taken this on. What is it that Trails BC can do and is doing to help fill these gaps and fulfill the goal of the TransCanada Trail?

Léon Lebrun: 14:13

Well, like any organization, we do a lot of lobbying, of course, lobbying, of course. The biggest problem that we have is who will be using these trails and how compatible these trails are for all users. And we know that to this day. This is quite a challenge because, first of all, since we started this whole idea, trails were kind of sort of single-use. You know single uses. So you might have been on a bike trail, you might have been on a motorized dirt bike, but most of the people at that time thought of trails as hikers. So we were basically hikers. And so, with the TransCanada Trail, this whole idea of multi-use trail was kind of a new concept. It really did not exist before, and this is where we got the idea. Oh, with the multi-use trail, we can connect communities much better and, of course, we get the people involved. So that's what. So this is what we set out to do, this was our mission, and but a big part of our mission is that we wanted it to be a natural trail as much as possible. Again, like I mentioned before, when it comes to connecting these trails and the multi-use trail, you want to experience as much as possible.

Léon Lebrun: 16:14

Unfortunately, not all uses are compatible for all surfaces where we have trails. And you know, there are places where trails get overpopulated by walkers. As you know, going around Stanley Park, for example, we have a situation where we have a multi-use trail but we separated the cyclists from the walkers along the seawall. Well, that's kind of the idea that we had in mind, and wherever we are on urban areas, the idea of motorized trails such as ATVs and dirt bikes and 4x4s and all that kind of thing, we're not nearly as it's not that much of a problem most of the time, but the moment that we're on Crown Land we're into a different world. There's a kind of a free-for-all that goes out there and there's an idea that wherever you can run your vehicle you will do so. Then you will do so.

Peter Ladner: 17:46

I noticed in the literature provided by the Trans-Canada Trail Society that it originally started out as, and one of their goals is to promote and advocate for active transportation, and they very reluctantly it seems started allowing motorized transit, atvs and dirt bikes and such on sections of the trail. But, as you say, they make it very difficult. I think once a motorized vehicle gets on the trail they take it over because other people don't want to be on there when there's a motorcycle whipping by, or when it all gets chewed up by big tires and it's unsafe for hikers and so on. Up by big tires and it's unsafe for hikers, and so on. So it sounds like that this is a pretty tough issue. Who resolves this issue? Is it just hikers standing in the middle of the trail saying you shall not pass to dirt bikes? Or the dirt bikes just say, forget it, we're here and we're going to be here to stay.

Léon Lebrun: 18:38

We're here and we're going to be here to stay. Well, first of all, we have to come to the realization that we are incompatible most of the time when it comes to trails, but they can have their own trails and we have to understand that. We're in a big country here that has a lot of resource roads that people can use and we can share those resource roads. So that's a way of doing it. These trails, in other words, these motorized vehicles, might turn the trail into mud or potholes or tracks. If you take your bike on such a trail, you're not looking at the environment, you're paying attention to where you're riding, and not only that, it becomes so difficult that it discourages you from doing that kind of activity. So we are, in fact, incompatible for most situations situations, and so we would like to have a way of talking to each other much more. We have an example of this here in the Chilliwack River Valley. We started to build a trail up through the valley there and soon after, these ATVers and dirt bikers were right on our trail, turning the whole thing into mud mainly mud and potholes and all that kind of thing. So we actually I have to say that I did this on my own. I assembled the vehicle, people into a coffee shop and said we have to make up our minds here. We are incompatible and therefore we have to find a way to do this. And if we don't get together, if we don't talk to each other, of course governments and people don't want to get in the middle of these disputes and so if we talk to each other, then we're more likely to get support from governments. When I say support, I mean financial support and so on, because it serves more people. So we have done that. As an example, the Chilliwack River Valley. And what we've done is we're involved with an organization, not an organization, but with the government agency that's called Rec Sites and Trails BC. We started with an organization called LUCO and anyway we got together. We got the, in other words, this government agency, rack Sites and Trails BC, to bring us together and we're doing that to this day, and probably the only place in British Columbia where we're actually talking to each other. And what happens when that, what happened in this case is that, okay, we can share resource worlds. A lot of our resource worlds go through natural country, forests here and, of course, mining country and that kind of thing. So we agreed if we're not on a trail but on a resource road, we can share that and find ways of supporting each other.

Léon Lebrun: 23:12

By having done that, this particular government agency decided to pay attention to the motorized people more than they did before and they organized parking lots for them, allowed them areas where they can practice their sport and that kind of thing, a little bit like the downhill cyclists as well. Their types of trails are very difficult for well motorized people don't use those trails so much and they do it for a different purpose, so they are actually kind of difficult on walkers or hikers, so they need separated areas or they tend to be compatible, especially for walkers. So there's an example of where this can happen. There can be. We need to talk to each other.

Léon Lebrun: 24:28

So there's an organization called Outdoor Recreation Council of BC here who bring all these different recreations together. But we still haven't come to terms with the fact that, for instance, on rail trails. We think rail trails are perfect for cycling because of their grades and so on, and they appeal to all kinds of views, lots of abilities, and therefore it's perfect for cyclists in particular and of course, for walkers and in some cases with equestrians. So this is one of the reasons why rail corridors are just perfect for what we're doing.

Léon Lebrun: 25:26

Dikes and rail corridors have good surfaces to them and you know hard surfaces. But the problem that we have there is that they bring up all the rocks and they create potholes all over and they track it. So you know, we wouldn't mind doing it with them, with ATVers and dirt bikes, but for that purpose it makes the cycling nearly impossible for most people. People who love that kind of challenge, that's one thing, but the vast majority of people who want to tour and to explore their surrounding and appreciate their environment and so on, they don't want to fight potholes and that kind of thing. And, for that matter, in some places you have to walk your bike and push it through mud and that kind of thing.

Peter Ladner: 26:34

So it sounds like you're basically reinforcing what you said at the start, that these uses are incompatible. And so then it comes down to if we're on the side of the cyclists and the hikers and the active transportation people. You've mentioned lobbying, and it sounds as if the authorities are actually being lobbied harder or feel more pressure or support from the motorized people. They're going to put the parking lots in there and encourage them to go there. So again it comes back to this age-old thing of the cyclists and the other users have to get organized and make their voices heard.

Peter Ladner: 27:13

And also, I would think there would be a role for signage. I mean, if there was at least a sign that said no motorized transportation past this point, it would at least set up an expectation, if not result in direct action. But it's a step there. And I noticed that the Trans-Canada Trail Foundation does give money and grants. They gave five, almost five and a half million dollars in funding, which goes across all of Canada last year. It doesn't amount to very much in each jurisdiction, but they do give money for signage and some of these other ways that these trails can be prioritized for active transportation uses. Is that enough?

Léon Lebrun: 28:00

The quick answer is probably no, okay, mainly. Well, there was a time when we started all of this. We started this as a grassroots organization, and as a grassroots organization, we used to meet with people locally and it was the people who were making this happen, and that's what happened in the Chilliwack River Valley. It's the local people. We got together, we talked with the motorized people together. We talked with the motorized people. By the way, the motorized people are there policing our trails there and making sure that we can work together. So it can happen, but it seems to be happening rarely.

Peter Ladner: 29:04

You've written a critique of the Trans-Canada Trail situation and I gather you have yet to get a response from the foundation, but one of your main points is that it's no longer a grassroots organization. What would it take Supposing you didn't have to, or want to, wait for the central office to make decisions on this? Is there a way that people in BC could rise up or get involved at a grassroots level without needing approval or being part of the formal TransCanada Foundation?

Léon Lebrun: 29:37

Well, to start with, that's the way we started.

Peter Ladner: 29:41

Yeah.

Léon Lebrun: 29:41

And until about 2017. And since that time, the organization has changed and I can see why it's difficult to run a national organization to deal with all these different groups, because all of those groups are all different in every province. You know, we govern each other, we govern differently and so on, but that was at a time when we worked as partners. So Trails BC was a partner of the Trans-Canada Trail. We still aren't in a sense. In other words, they consult with us from time to time, but at that time it was ongoing to the point where they had an employee with each Transcanda Trail that worked with us to help with the coordination with the central office, to put up the mapping and all that kind of thing, and we used to meet with each other. So there was communications between the provinces and the central office a lot more. Now, what they're doing now is that they've got leaders that look after aspects of the Trans-Catatral it might be for the First Nations aspect, others it's for signage that someone else is for some other reason and they tend to connect directly with the communities that we were connected with before, and so they try to connect directly with all these communities right across Canada, asking them to do various things and they've done that in a way where we've kind of established this whole idea of the Trans-Canada Trail.

Léon Lebrun: 31:59

But at that time when we did it, we did it with a lot of people and we were meeting with people all the time. We had pavilions along the way where people would donate and put their names up and all those kinds of things. In other words, they were actively involved with the trail system. Now they depend an awful lot more on the community governments to do this work. Where we're working with regional districts or with the government, the provincial governments, we have a lot of public lands as well and there they're dependent on volunteers, but they're dealing directly with these government organizations rather than with organizations like ours that are true partners to make this happen. Just to give you an example of what I'm talking about this happen. Just to give you an example of what I'm talking about the city of Vancouver have you tried to follow the signage?

Peter Ladner: 33:16

To be honest, I've seen signs here and there, but short answer no, I've not ever felt, oh, I'm on this trail and it goes here now. It goes here now.

Léon Lebrun: 33:21

It goes here now it goes there, it's, it's nearly impossible, and the reason why is because, uh, it's been, it's, it's being directed by someone in nova scotia do you get the idea?

Peter Ladner: 33:37

I got it okay.

Léon Lebrun: 33:38

Those nova scotia people they're, they're well-meaning, they're trying very, very hard, but they're talking to a planner somewhere and saying you know they need this and they need that, but they don't do it Through the city of Vancouver. All the signage has practically disappeared like we're.

Peter Ladner: 34:06

We're at a bit of an impasse here, but, uh, I think we've got to wrap this up, but I I think that your example of how you've worked in it over the years is certainly one that should be held up and not forgotten and appreciated for how it can bring, as you say, the grassroots people into the, the movement, because, honestly, a trail of this complexity 29,000 kilometers across Canada I don't know how many in BC obviously cannot be managed by one or two people, or a few officers or a few leaders or something. It's got to be able to engage the community. Thanks, leon, and I appreciate your insights and guidance on getting this right and making it better and really making this TransCanada Trail all it could be. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Léon Lebrun: 34:49

A la prochaine.

Peter Ladner: 34:51

Merci. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

Learn more at TrailsBC.ca

Reach out to Léon directly at LebrunL@telus.net to get involved!

Curious about cargo e-bikes but hesitant to invest thousands without trying one first? North Vancouver has created an elegant solution that's transforming how families approach transportation decisions. All you need is a library card to check one out.

Duncan Wilcock, co-founder of Better North Shore, joins Bike Sense to share the story behind North Vancouver's groundbreaking cargo e-bike library program.

Release Date: April 30, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Even for those of us who are longtime cyclists, the world of e-bikes is sometimes a bit of a mystery. For people who are already e-bike riders, like myself, the world of cargo bikes is definitely a mystery, and there is somebody in North Vancouver who has dedicated a lot of time to come up with a program to help solve that mystery. His name is Duncan Wilcock. He's our guest today. Duncan, welcome to the podcast.

Duncan Wilcock: 0:58

Thank you, peter, pleased to meet you. Thanks for having me on.

Peter Ladner: 1:01

Could you introduce yourself and describe how you fit into the world of cargo e-bikes.

Duncan Wilcock: 1:08

My day job. I'm a sustainability consultant with Prism Engineering and in my passion projects I've co-founded an organization called Better North Shore here in North Vancouver and a few years ago I approached the city, approached the district of North Vancouver with an idea. I came up with an idea with a neighbor of how some of our neighbors were not using they were buying a second car and we were thinking how can we help them explore, look at options, transportation options, including cargo bikes. My neighbor had a cargo bike. He's a real hardcore cyclist, so his isn't even electric assist. But we realized wouldn't it be nice if you could go to the library and see them? It's actually Lynn Valley Library, it's a beautiful space and it's a square, if you saw them there outside and you could just take one from the library and test it out and maybe have it for a few days and see how it fits into your life. So that was the idea and we went from there.

Peter Ladner: 2:14

Could you, just before we get into it, what's it like riding a cargo bike? How is it different? You have a child. Describe what it's like for you to ride around with a heavy load and enter that world a little bit.

Duncan Wilcock: 2:28

That's right. I have a seven-year-old. He's been riding my bike since he was one year old. I got my bike around the time he was born. It is such a joy. He's a little boy and there's no better tool than an electric electric bike or cargo bike to get right next to a construction site. Sit there for hours and just watch the machines and the changes happen. It is just magical. He's right there with me, I can talk to him. I can stop immediately at the side of the road if he has questions. We're never stuck in traffic. We have no traffic Easy parking. I can talk to him. I can stop immediately at the side of the road if he has questions. We're never stuck in traffic. We have no traffic Easy parking. It's just fun.

Peter Ladner: 3:12

Now just describe the bike though, because your son is sitting behind you on this bike. He's not in a box out in front, is that right? And if he's behind, how do you make sure he doesn't fall off?

Duncan Wilcock: 3:21

Oh, so he's held in securely with bike seats. He's one from Thule, which makes a great one for a long time when he was in the younger years and now got a little bigger one that's made for his weight. He's about a 50-pound kid and I think it'll be good for another few years with him. So my bike is not a cargo bike. I don't personally ride a cargo bike. I have definitely explored them and looked closely at them and because I have one child I'm able to make it work. But the attraction of being able to put a bag of soccer balls in the front and take him to soccer practice, that's where my passion for cargo bikes has come from. And knowing that most of the other families I know have more than one kid, certainly you're trying to move more than one kid. You really kind of need the extra space that you can get with either a cargo bike with a long seat on the back or a box bike with a big box up front.

Peter Ladner: 4:21

You did a program to help introduce people to cargo bikes. Before we get into all of it, do you have any stories of somebody who got involved in your program and had some kind of life-changing experience, or at least wonderful experience?

Duncan Wilcock: 4:37

Here's one example that I saw. I was out riding in this beautiful trail called the Demonstration Forest in North Vancouver. It's about 10 kilometers of paved road that's through the woods and no car traffic on it. It's a great destination. And I was riding up there with a colleague from work who I was introducing to an e-bike her and her husband or partner I guess and we came across a family of five who were out. They'd borrowed the two e-bikes from the library, so the long tail two wheel version and the three wheel um, three wheel trike version, with the box up front for the less confident riders, and they had the three kids in these and they'd gone up the demo forest, had a picnic, just had a great family adventure. Another friend said they saw that same family because it was just such a joy to see later, down on what's called Grand Boulevard I don't know, they probably had a 20-kilometer adventure or something. It was just a joy to see.

Peter Ladner: 5:40

Now I presume that your dream goal in setting up this program again we'll get into the details shortly was that somebody like that would then go aha. I now understand how this could work and I will go and buy a bike, change my life, not buy that second car. Whatever. Has that indeed happened? You have some data now I'll ask you first Tell me about the program.

Duncan Wilcock: 6:10

It's a bike's available at a library, just one library, Multiple libraries. So the program started in September last year. It got, you know, from idea to get it, you know, going was you know a couple of years. It takes a little time for the government to sort of sort things out, Just pause for a second there.

Peter Ladner: 6:24

What has to be sorted out? You mentioned getting a counselor on side. Do you have to get a bike store on side? Do you have to get the library on side? How many partners need to be engaged for this to happen?

Duncan Wilcock: 6:36

So the initial idea was I took the idea to my councillor, jordan Beck, one of my councillors he's a great councillor here in the district of North Vancouver Rides a cargo bike himself with his two young kids. Is it one of the ones?

Peter Ladner: 6:50

with his name on the side of it, like another councillor in North.

Duncan Wilcock: 6:54

Vancouver? I haven't. It's not like Tony Valente that you're talking about. It's a different one from Tony's. I don't think Jordan has his name on it, but I bet when he goes out campaigning he does he certainly. He just uses it to get around town because it's the fastest way to get around town.

Duncan Wilcock: 7:08

Okay, so Jordan's on board. Then what? Yeah, he worked out how to take it to council as a report to council and secured some funding. How much District of North Bank? About $60,000 was the initial kind of estimate.

Duncan Wilcock: 7:23

I'd done a bunch of legwork to. You know, the initial concept was that the district would buy the library and the district would buy the bikes. But that, you know, after going through the, you know the government and working the mechanisms, working out the best way to do it, it was actually provided by Evo, the car sharing and bike sharing company that's the BCAA run. That's right, that's right. So lots of credit for them for stepping up. And so we met with the librarian. But none of this was necessary to get it going. Really, what happened was it went through staff and the staff at the District of North Van worked out okay. We'd like to do this, but we don't want to take on the liability of owning the bikes and sending them out. So they wanted to get an external contractor. So they got an external contractor. They put on the request for proposals and all that. And that's when BCAA, I think, stepped up and was the successful proponent Is BCAA operating.

Peter Ladner: 8:19

Do they have this capacity throughout the province? If somebody in Salmon Arm called them up and said we want to do, this.

Duncan Wilcock: 8:26

I believe they are interested in taking it further. Okay, yeah, their representative has given me that indication. I'm sure they have to look at it on a case-by-case basis, but this was a pilot, certainly a pilot for the District of North Van and it's a pilot for for bcaa. But it's um. It is through their main app. So if you have the evo app on your phone, you can just go to the evo return tab and see the the cargo bikes available there are.

Duncan Wilcock: 8:51

There were four libraries when they started in september. I think there are two currently. They've got a couple of construction issues going on, so they're right now they're at the Lynn Valley Library here in the district of North Van, and then we have the city of North Van which also has at their library the Lonsdale Library and there's two bikes available at both locations. There should be another two bikes available at those other locations in the months ahead. How much were they used? So I mentioned it starting in September kind of a late season start really and the summary from staff was they were blown away with the adoption. It was tremendous. They had 136 total trips in the two late season months of September to October 2024. 1,500 kilometers were ridden. That's more than two trips a day, with only seven bikes on offer. 88 individual people took part and 92% of the 88 riders were infrequent or occasional riders, meaning they ride less than three trips per year to date in September.

Peter Ladner: 9:57

Are you talking about riding cargo bikes or riding any bikes?

Duncan Wilcock: 10:02

Riding any bikes.

Peter Ladner: 10:02

That's the the my reading of it and do you have any data on what they did afterwards? Did it change their right, their transportation habits?

Duncan Wilcock: 10:12

I don't have that data yet. Um, I, I've got some. I've got an anecdote from, uh, uh, a couple of bike shops. One that comes to mind is the Lynn Valley bike shop. They certainly sold a cargo bike to a family that said, oh, we went and tried it out and buying a cargo bike tried out at the library and they're buying a cargo bike.

Peter Ladner: 10:32

So what are the barriers to buying a cargo bike? Because I know somebody who had one and it broke down, need to be replaced, and she said, oh my goodness, I don't even know where to start. Like, how do I assess models and test?

Duncan Wilcock: 10:46

them out and know the costs. I'm in the middle of writing an article on this right now, actually for our Better North Shore website. So you've decided to buy an e-bike. I think you need a place to store it, a safe place to store it. That's the first one and that's a, you know, that's that's a real motivator for me. I don't have a garage. Um, I uh, you know I have a, uh, a lockable utility trailer is what I use and, um, um, knowing whether it's going to fit in there, how long? The bikes are a bit longer. So that's a part of the fitting it into your life. Where are you going to store it? Do you have a safe place to store it? No, it's not going to be stolen. End of trip facilities is the, is the the term, as I'm sure you know, and hub cycling has a great uh pdf on on good end of trip facilities. Um, cost is a barrier. You know they're not. They're more expensive than a regular e-bike what's the cost range?

Peter Ladner: 11:34

what? What's the minimum you you'd probably pay for? A decent one yeah, they're.

Duncan Wilcock: 11:40

You know I see a lot of people what they call on the, the rad power, they call them dad power bikes and that's what jordan back rides and those, those I think you can get into. For you know, 2500, 3000, they're long tail. Long tail tend to be a little easier and may seem you know some people. The initial take is that's really expensive. But as soon as you put it beside the price of a car if it's a car replacer it's really it's a bargain.

Peter Ladner: 12:01

I just paid four hundred dollars to get my car service routine servicing yeah, twelve thousand dollars is average cost a car for everyone per year.

Duncan Wilcock: 12:10

You know we're talking about purchase price. And then no insurance. No, no ongoing. You know usage insurance, maybe some theft insurance if you like. Um, and then, uh, you know you can buy. There are really nice ones with particularly the box, more the european style, the box bike on the front.

Peter Ladner: 12:25

It can go up to the 10 000 mark are these widely available at bike shops, even, let's say, on the north shore? Do you have to order?

Duncan Wilcock: 12:31

them especially. Um, there are a number of bike shops on the north shore I could name that have them. I can think of three or four, four offhand. I know of several over in the city of Vancouver as well, so they're readily available. I believe it's part of a wave that's coming. All this micro mobility and electric bikes really just so game changing.

Peter Ladner: 12:55

Do you have any data on how many people here in, let's just say, bc Data on how many people here in, let's just say, bc use cargo bikes compared to other jurisdictions? Because I know I was recently in New York City and there was a whole world of couriers who just ride e-bikes and cargo bikes around. And we see pictures, of course, of Copenhagen, with the moms all lined up at the coffee shop with the cargo bikes all parked outside while they go and have coffee with their kids or whatever.

Duncan Wilcock: 13:22

Canada Post and FedEx have been using them for deliveries in the city of Vancouver, downtown Victoria, calgary, for a few years. I don't have any data data specifically to your question. No, I can tell you. Was it? 12 or 13 people turned up to the cargo bike race that we held here in North Vancouver, uh, in August 2023. That was a real hoot, got some great photos and got a news article about it. Uh, it was, uh, it was um, it was uh. It's worth telling about it. It's a. It's a mixed um. It's inspired by one in Portland. That's a. It was a emergency response dressed up as a cargo bike race. So this, this, so the scenario is the earthquake, the big one, has just happened. It's three days into the earthquake. You're running low on water and medical supplies. You have a cargo bike. You can help Because you're with bridges out and that sort of thing. It's actually a very resilient vehicle. You could manhandle it across the look some of the rivers if we needed to.

Peter Ladner: 14:21

I know my son and daughter-in-law were living in Whistler and calculated that in the event of a fire there, with one road out north, one road south, it would take about 10 hours for all the cars to finally find their way out. And he had a cargo bike loaded up with his emergency bag and figured he could just slide up the side of the backed up cars and get his way out of there. So the pilot was completed and you've got the data. Is it going to continue?

Duncan Wilcock: 14:57

So the pilot isn't completed. It was in two parts. It took a pause over the winter months, paused at the end of October, probably because it can be pretty hard on the bikes with the salt, and it's just how they define the pilot. The bikes are back on the street, so the pilot is ongoing until end of August. So it's exciting and I would love to.

Duncan Wilcock: 15:17

One of the great things about the person who put this program together was that he told me he made it open sourced so that it's very easy for another local government here in BC or elsewhere perhaps to copy the model, copy his documents, work with BCAA or an RFP for another proponent, and I'd love to see this spread elsewhere throughout the province. Where would someone go to get that open source information? I'd be happy to take. Yeah, I'd be happy for someone to contact me and I can connect them with the staff member at the District of North Van. Okay, they could also contact the District of North Van. They have a yeah, they have an email. If you search, if you Google cargo bikes at District of North Van, it'll have an email address for you there as well. We'll put that in the show notes so people can see. Yeah, yeah, we can put my email address in the show notes and everything too.

Peter Ladner: 16:15

Do you have any recommendations of A box versus a long tail versus a trailer, which I assume are all different ways of carrying cargo and bike?

Duncan Wilcock: 16:26

It's a great point. In the cargo bike race we had bikes with trailers. I have a bike with trailers so I've kind of used mine as a cargo bike. I've definitely explored and looked at buying a dedicated cargo bike. I've chosen to stick with the standard length bikes for some other reasons. I think, like a lot of these questions, it depends on your needs, really exploring it.

Duncan Wilcock: 16:47

I think the cargo bike box up front is the I don't know most versatile. There's a real joy to having your child or the people that you're talking to just in front of you. So having the box in front and you can engage with them better and see your cargo, see if your box of soccer balls or your bags of cement or whatever it is you're trying to move are falling out. The lower cost alternative and most popular alternative is the lower cost one and the most popular around North America is the longer tail. So that's one of the options offered at the library.

Duncan Wilcock: 17:21

It's not just a district North fan, you know. I think believe it's not limited to just people who live in the district North fan. Other people from Metro van can try these out through the Evo app. And yeah, the bike trailer is I prefer having having. I personally don't find the bike trailer as as as I find a little less less versatile than having it all in one, having your kid on the back with you or, uh, or your cargo on on with you. So, but it's, uh, it's a less expensive alternative. It's one I use, so that covers the range.

Peter Ladner: 17:56

I can remember seeing in Copenhagen families where I counted four kids in one of those boxes and one mother was riding them around. So let's talk about the riders for a moment. You come to the library. Do you have to have any certification? I know there's a certification program for cargo bike delivery people. They have to learn, pass some kind of a test. Do you have to be specially fit? Do you have to be know something about riding e-bikes? Is it difficult to learn? How do they teach?

Duncan Wilcock: 18:26

no, no, it's, it's not difficult. Um, and you know, I, I can understand the reason for the, the cargo one you're talking about. I mean, on your podcast recently about cycling without age, they talked about, you know, carrying two adults 500 kilograms the thing's going to behave differently. But carrying a, a few kids, uh, you know more like two adults 500 kilograms, the thing's going to behave differently. But carrying a few kids, uh, you know more like a hundred, a hundred pounds of weight. A hundred pounds of weight, uh, was 500 pounds, was probably the got the unit wrong there. Um, so, uh, a hundred pounds of weight doesn't make as much difference. Um, they all.

Duncan Wilcock: 18:58

All the person needs to do is, um, I think I've created an Evo account, so download that Evo app, which the instructions I guess we can put in the show notes. But also, if you search for Distries of North Van cargo bikes and they are available in the city of North Van as well It'll give you the instructions. There's no, you just turn up, it's free, there's no charge for taking them and there's no test or license. How long can you take them for? You can take them for as long as for a full library day. You book how long you're going to take it. They don't stay out overnight.

Peter Ladner: 19:33

Are these bikes all or typically pedal electric, where you have to pedal to stimulate the motor, or do some of them just have a Correct? They're pedal electric, no, just straight up throttles.

Duncan Wilcock: 19:44

Neither of the ones that they have are throttle. These are really nice, high quality bikes. The one is I think it's made by Specialized is a long tail two-wheeler, and then the three-wheel box bike is I don't recall the brand, but is a really high quality one. Yes, they're pedal electric. To finish my last question, I think so you can get up to nine hours of an adventure. You know if you went from sort of 10 am till 7 pm or something like that Time for a nice ride down to the demonstration forest and a picnic and the return trip Picnic and a trip down to the shipyards for ice cream.

Duncan Wilcock: 20:23

Some of the data that returned in the first couple of months of it showed some sample trips and they're really wide-ranging. They go all over our area and, as you can imagine, the North Shore is a very hilly place. We go from zero to 300 meters of elevation and people have enjoyed those trips. Do you know anything?

Peter Ladner: 20:43

about the users? Are they typically recreational users, commuters, businesses?

Duncan Wilcock: 20:51

I think the main thing I know about them is that 92% of them are, you know, infrequent or occasional riders, so I think they're probably not commuters. They're, you know, recreational and e-bike curious, cargo bike curious.

Peter Ladner: 21:07

So what would be your dream goal for this program? Presumably seeing it work in North Van, and then Could you see this working everywhere could see it working everywhere.

Duncan Wilcock: 21:18

I'd say my two dream goals are for it to continue in North Van. It's a pilot, so at the moment it will end after a year. I'd love to see it continue here. I think it's already proven itself successful and I think it's going to bring a lot of joy. And beyond that, I'd love to see it spread elsewhere in BC and beyond. I think it's another. Libraries are such a fantastic resource and I got to credit Jacqueline Van Dyke, the head of the DNV public library. We met with her and spoke with her and she immediately saw the.

Peter Ladner: 21:53

She wasn't an e-bike rider, but the whole conversation turned would require $60,000 to make this program work, and then BCAA stepped in. If you were to do it again or extend it, what would be the cost to the municipality?

Duncan Wilcock: 22:11

So that was the initial budget. I don't know the costs to the municipality. The initial budget included purchasing three cargo bikes and some maintenance contracts and things. So that was the initial concept, I suspect. With having BCAA do it it was probably less expensive per bike and maybe that's why there's more bikes than we initially proposed. So I know the District of North Van also partnered with the City of North Van, so that's why we have it at both libraries. So it's an idea that spread to both North Vancouver municipalities. If it weren't, for this program?

Peter Ladner: 22:44

are you aware of any other cargo bikes that are available through your typical bike rental, like bike rentals from a bike store? That's a great question. Bike share program.

Duncan Wilcock: 23:00

I am not aware of other cargo bike rental or I think only if you're considering purchasing one here in North Van. I mean, I hear about them overseas. I think the city of Freiburg in Germany just has them on the side of the road for free use when you need to move, which is amazing. But I think this is a great step in that.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

Duncan, congratulations on this program, and I know you wanted to have a whole bunch of other people on here because you don't want to take all credit for it, but we can only really work with one person. So I'm glad to hear it from you and I'm glad you're happy to credit the other people.

Duncan Wilcock: 23:39

You know I'm just a guy with the idea, like, if I can briefly mention, jordan Back, the counselor, brenda James, who came up with the idea, michelle Lamb, who worked hard on it, mac Fitzgerald, the other key person at the District of North Van there's probably some people I'm missing Jacqueline Van Dyke, the head of the District of North Van Public Library. You know, ideas are one thing, but execution is really what matters, and Brendan and Michelle really executed on this idea, made it a reality. So they deserve all the credit for this and I'm just tickled to see it happening. It just brings joy to my face, just like Jordan's, whenever I see anybody on one or when I use them myself.

Duncan Wilcock: 24:13

I've used them a few times myself to take my son to soccer and to see precisely would it fit in the bike storage space I have and how does it feel? I mean, my little guy was like, no, no, I want to take the three-wheeler, let's take the trike. I'm like, no, I want to ride the two-wheeler, but okay, we'll take the three-wheeler, that's what you want to do, so fun.

Peter Ladner: 24:31

Well, I remember something we learned at the Active Transportation Summit about how the key for all these programs is political will, and it sounds like you had some people both on your council and in your bureaucracy and, dare I say, in the library system, who had the political will to push this forward and carry it through. Do you think that would be difficult in some communities?

Duncan Wilcock: 24:54

Oh, of course, you know there's politics. This is different depending on the people involved. You know I should also give a lot of credit to the, the counselors of the district of North Van, who unanimously voted to allocate some money and give this a try. So there was no pushback from your council. There were questions, you know. There were questions. You know I think Jordan did a good job of of putting together it in a way and we, you know, price it out and you know it was a a motion to explore it and it was a motion to explore it and it was explored and made a reality.

Peter Ladner: 25:26

Well, with the possible demise of subsidies for electric vehicles that we're hearing about, the BC Cycling Coalition is actively advocating for a repeat or expansion of rebates for e-bikes. A repeat or expansion of rebates for e-bikes, and this would, I think, be a very big selling point in helping. Once people have this introductory ability through the the library rental program, I could foresee a much bigger intake uptake of cargo bike use, which would enable so many more things to be done with a bike in a more affordable, healthy, happy way and, from all I've heard, kids really like them too. It's more fun riding around a bike than in the back of a car.

Duncan Wilcock: 26:14

It sure is, sure is. I feel like my son has a tremendous connection with his community and awareness of space from all the bike riding that we've done around our community together and it just makes our city better. Libraries have so much to give the community in more than just books. They have carbon dioxide sensors, they have 3D printers. At our library they have a podcast recording studio and a video recording studio, and this is yet another thing that they can introduce to the community that it's just a win, win, win.

Peter Ladner: 26:45

Thank you, duncan. Thank you for your work in this, Thank you for your inspiration, and I really hope other communities are listening and able to take up your offer of the open source access to how to do this and make their cities bigger, small, better places. Thank you, peter. You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

Contact Duncan at duncan@wilcock.ca
or at BetterNorthShore.ca 

More info for people wanting to start up a cargo bike lending program in their own municipality:

• DNV Libraries Cargo Bike Program

• District of North Vancouver Cargo Bike Pilot Program

• The Joy of E-Biking on the North Shore

Nick van Egmond, CEO of Bicycle Broker, introduces 'Sundays' — a comprehensive insurance solution designed specifically for cyclists that covers theft and damage for all types of bikes across Canada. 

Traditional home and tenant insurance typically demands a high deductible and leaves gaps in bicycle coverage. This new product provides 24/7 protection both on and off your property, with much lower deductibles. Nick also offers a few pro tips on new ways to keep your bike safe and recover a stolen bike.

Find out all about Sundays specialist bike insurance at sundaysinsurance.ca. You can also visit bicyclebroker.ca to learn more about bicycle insurance options.  

Release date: April 3, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. We all know somebody who's bought a new bike and is afraid to ride it, not because of an accident that might happen, but that it might be stolen. When you've spent $3,000 on a bicycle if you buy an e-bike, it may be more than that this is obviously a very warranted concern. We talk a lot about ICBC and accident liability, but this whole other world of insurance and worry from cyclists has until now not been addressed. But now there is an answer, and to give you that answer and explain how it works, we've invited on the broadcast today Nick van Egmond, who's the CEO of Bicycle Brokers, and they have a new product that we think you're going to be pretty interested in. Nick, welcome to the podcast.

Nick van Egmond: 1:17

Thank you so much, peter, excited to be here. I'm chatting with you in March, right before the snow melts, so this is a good time to kind of talk about the spring cycling season and what's new, what's available to help the bicycle community.

Peter Ladner: 1:30

We're going to get into what you offer in a moment, but perhaps you could just tell us how you got into this.

Nick van Egmond: 1:36

Well, it kind of started as I was racing bikes and traveling and having some insurance issues a lack of availability for emergency medical, leaving Canada at one point and doing races to then saying you know, that could be a way I wind down my bike career and like a new entrepreneurial venture and something to give back and to help my beloved bike community. Why don't I see what it would look like to build an insurance resource? It seems like enough people have questions or concerns and there's not a central point. So bicycle broker kind of came from that and the first thing I started to talk about was travel insurance, which got me answering a lot of questions with oh, I don't have something to cover your bike. I can cover you If you go to a hospital, you leave Canada, there's an accident, there's an ambulance, et cetera.

Nick van Egmond: 2:30

There was great products if you were the broker and you knew what to offer, but then they're like well, what about my bike? What if it's in transit? What if it's stolen? On this trip I've been planning and saving for for years and it kind of irked me to go there isn't anything great. We can see how this works through home insurance. This is going back a couple of years and, yeah, I've been working on a solution for that since.

Peter Ladner: 2:57

What is your solution?

Nick van Egmond: 2:59

The solution is a new brand on our platform called Sundays, and it's actually been operating for the better part of 15 years around the world, in other countries, and so our company, bicycle Broker, is now the conduit to bring that to Canada. An easy online click and review within seconds what is out there for your bike and how do I customize a policy for my individual needs, all the bikes in my household and how they're covered, not just while they're in the household, but how they're covered 24-7 and, if needed, worldwide.

Peter Ladner: 3:36

So, just to be clear, this is not just for racers, it's not just for people traveling, it's for anybody who owns a bike and is concerned about the financial loss from damage or theft of that bike. Is that right?

Nick van Egmond: 3:47

Absolutely. This is for all types of bikes. Definitely. E-bikes are a big demographic for us and whether you're a commuter with a couple hundred dollar bike right up to it's replaced your car and you've bought the highest end bicycle that is out there Like, we want to chat with you and show you what's what's available to protect your investment and your beloved bike.

Peter Ladner: 4:14

I've always operated. I have house insurance. I don't know how people who rent have house insurance, If that's also something they have. I know you can get insurance for your furniture and so on, but I always thought that would sort of cover it. Am I wrong if my bike was stolen from my home?

Nick van Egmond: 4:32

No, not wrong. I mean, that's been the best available option in Canada for decades, right, if you have that conversation with your home insurance broker and you kind of treat your bike the same way you would a piece of jewelry, some fine art hey, I bought something expensive. If it goes missing from my house, um, you know what's, how does your home insurance respond? And so a very similar, whether you rent or own a home, a very similar piece, right, it's it's kind of boxed in where it's just treated the same as your television set, or so if your home burns down or if there's a burglary and your bike is vandalized, if your bike is stolen off of the property, that's kind of all we had. And so the thing for us is, well, that doesn't really cover the full spectrum of how you use your bike. Your exposure is back to 24 7. You know what happens if the bike is stolen while it's at my office, while I'm at the coffee shop. And then, to take it a step further, what about damage to the bike?

Nick van Egmond: 5:36

With the rise of the values of bikes we have e-bikes, as you mentioned in the intro three, five, five. I mean we're helping customers who are buying $20,000. Beautiful bicycles. So the damage that could happen in a crash that doesn't fall under warranty can be detrimental financially. So how do we offer an all-encompassing coverage?

Nick van Egmond: 6:01

Every single quote you would look at on Sundays has damage and theft across canada automatically in the base policy, and then from there you're making some custom tweaks which go back to that question of is it just for racers?

Nick van Egmond: 6:14

No, you have to actually like click a button and pay a little bit more to cover yourself in races and big events like grand fondos. Um, and the same thing with the basic policy will cover you across canada, because not everybody, especially with an e-bike right now, we're really not set up to fly with them. You know you got to probably leave your battery at home and then see about trying to either purchase or rent one when you travel. So we're not there yet. Um, so you can click a button to kind of take your policy worldwide and there's just a couple more buttons Like I. I'd say, go through the website is a good way to educate yourself with what are these different functions and you need to compare it more like car insurance on your bike than than what you did previously, which was like a home insurance dynamic of just your personal property.

Peter Ladner: 7:02

Could you give us an example of the gap you're trying to fill between what ICBC will cover, say, you have an accident, your bike is banged or destroyed by a car or truck on one side, and what the house insurance will cover for theft on the other side? What's missing and how are you helping out on that?

Nick van Egmond: 7:25

Well, I think in that dynamic we want to and this flows through to how you need to look at this new type of bicycle insurance is it doesn't have anything to do with your house insurance and isolating that can give you a lower deductible. So if you have to make a claim out of pocket on your home insurance, you could have a $1,500 bike and a $1,000 deductible. And if the only thing that happens is, yeah, during some type of commuting accident, your bike is damaged, and then you have that mathematical scenario you end up not making a claim, your bike is damaged and you just have to absorb that cost, whereas with our new program, yeah, your deductible is between $150 and a maximum of $350. So it's good in that respect, the fact that it's separate from your home insurance and you're not calling them is a positive. And then there are a lot of dynamics to where, yeah, icbc is not going to respond to the damages to a bicycle right.

Nick van Egmond: 8:29

In a no-fault system, those are oftentimes part of the claim that gets left out. It's more about pain and suffering than it is about the loss of a piece of property. It would fall back on that individual who's riding the bike to have some other type of insurance, and so it fills that gap. You don't have to have ICBC. You don't have to have ICBC. You don't have to have home insurance If the most important thing to you is your bike. You just have to have a Sunday's policy and then that takes primary spot. You deal with us and we walk you through the claim process.

Peter Ladner: 9:06

Can you give us a rough idea of how much a cyclist might be paying to get the necessary minimum of insurance coverage for this gap you've just described?

Nick van Egmond: 9:20

I can. I think it comes up on the site within seconds and it is based on the purchase price of the bike. So, said a different way, I mean we're definitely helping people that are paying less than $10 a month on an entry-level bicycle to to have that extra level of peace of mind and go and ride more, um. But on the opposite end, like yeah, we, we work with families that have a collection of bicycles and e-bikes um, you know that could have $50,000 of value in their garage, just a bicycles, right? So it's full spectrum with us.

Peter Ladner: 10:00

So if I were to shift from my house insurance to your product, would I get a deduction in my house insurance? Would it cost me less?

Nick van Egmond: 10:08

Great question. I would absolutely think that everyone should have that dialogue of if Sundays make sense and you purchase one of those on one or all of your bicycles, you would want to contact your home or your renter's insurance, because if you're paying extra to cover your bicycles on the home policy and then you've got extra coverage with Sundays, you want to eliminate what's on your home policy and try and negotiate a lower price. Absolutely Like don't double insure yourself.

Peter Ladner: 10:41

So you mentioned to me that you don't just insure the bike but you could also insure the I don't know a helmet that got broken or some parts of the bike that were damaged, or if somebody was carrying something on a bike. Is that covered by insurance? Just get into a little bit of the range of what would be covered that a cyclist might be worried about.

Nick van Egmond: 11:06

Yeah, certainly, because this is an insurance designed by cyclists to make it as comprehensive and useful as possible. It thinks about what we all do with our bikes. Some of us put it on an airplane so the policy can respond to while it's in transit. Some of us buy pretty fancy accessories a helmet, nice cycling kit. We deal with a lot of head.

Peter Ladner: 11:29

Sorry if my Garmin computer got wrecked, fell over and it smashed. Is that the kind of thing that would be covered?

Nick van Egmond: 11:36

As long as it's triggered by damage or theft to the whole bicycle, and that is a part of the claim. Absolutely Right. So you've, your bike, is in transit in your car and unfortunately it gets stolen. Someone steals a nice helmet, a pair of shoes and and a garment and you've added accessories onto your policy. You're going to get covered for the bike and those accessories. So it's a very quick, easy website and dynamic. To just add that and then I can expand on a little bit more. Like I said, it really thinks about cyclists on on. You know an entry level right up to.

Nick van Egmond: 12:12

If you're listening to this and you've got that collection of bikes and you've been riding for a long time, you know a lot of us sometimes have a second set of wheels.

Nick van Egmond: 12:21

You might have this pair that's really fancy and you only use it on big rides, or you might have one that's got fast wheels to get you to work and then some bigger fat tires for the weekend so you can go play in the dirt and you can click and add a set of wheels. Bicycle Broker works a lot with bike retailers. Most of our business is the business insurance side of the cycling industry and one thing we work together on is how do we make this an easy process to put in front of people on new bike day and one of the ways we incentivize that is, if you have one of these policies on a bike within the first 60 days of purchase, you're able to click a button on our website and eliminate depreciation. So, as long as you have a Sunday's policy, if you put it on there when the bike is new, that's just another functionality of it to kind of incentivize people to look at one of these policies seriously, because depreciation can happen very quickly on a bicycle.

Peter Ladner: 13:28

Could you describe your company's relationship with Project 529 and tell people what that is?

Nick van Egmond: 13:34

company's relationship with Project 529 and tell people what that is. Yeah, most definitely so. We're in a position to. We're kind of at the end right. I'm covering through insurance, worst case scenario Bike is very damaged, stolen, et cetera.

Nick van Egmond: 13:47

But we work as closely as we can with anybody who's proactive with bike theft, and so registry of a bike is super key to that Part of our process.

Nick van Egmond: 13:59

Even if you buy one of these policies, the second you complete the sale, your document sent to you via email, if you haven't already done it, register it on the Project 529 platform.

Nick van Egmond: 14:10

So if it does get stolen, 529 is I treat it like a VIN number on a car and if that bike is recovered after a theft, most likely by a police station, they're able to log into a 529 platform which is shared between every owner of the bike who's registered their bike and police stations and police officers across all of North America to then track that recovered bike back to its original owner. That's huge to reduce the financial effects of a bike theft and to reunite the bike with its owner. It's a beautiful, beautiful program that we fully support. It's integrated into our process, not mandatory, but really, um, really pushed by by our team, in the same way that we're starting to to work a lot with and promote bicycle trackers. Um, just today in the UK they're looking at legislation to bring bicycle trackers more to the forefront because bike theft there is like, yes, it's absolutely a problem in Canada, but the UK is seeing numbers that are astronomical just with the volume of bike thefts.

Peter Ladner: 15:32

And how does a bike tracker work?

Nick van Egmond: 15:34

just with the volume of bike thefts.

Nick van Egmond: 15:36

And how does a bike tracker work?

Nick van Egmond: 15:37

So a bike tracker would be whether you're using, if you think about the Apple, airtag, or a lot of them now have a proprietary piece of hardware and software.

Nick van Egmond: 15:46

So when we talked earlier about bike registry, you're kind of doing the same thing. You're registering your tracker, which is a little piece of hardware that can be hidden on the bicycle, and then if it is stolen, imagine it has a gps air tag, if you will, and that proprietary software is how you can connect and contact police, track the bike and aid the recovery. You know it's not to go vigilante and chase down bike thieves and you know do that yourself, but it is to aid the recovery of your stolen bike. And then again you would kind of take one of those trackers and definitely utilize 529 to kind of complete that piece, not without the other piece of this which we have to touch on. And as we evolve our program, the more expensive your bike, the more we would want to see a better lock used. So we are developing a kind of Canada-wide approved lock system just for the promotion of better quality locks and how to lock and speak about that through our blogs and our communication and training.

Peter Ladner: 16:57

So would you require your customers to have one of your approved locks and or a tracking chip in their bike and or registration with Project 529?

Nick van Egmond: 17:12

Um locks are required in certain scenarios to prevent your claim being declined, which is let's use the example that a lot of us know would be I ride my bike to a coffee shop. You need to lock it outside. You know, we we do have, like, there's pretty intense wording around the likelihood of getting your full claim paid if you're not even locking up your bike while it's outside. Um, so that one is, yes, it is a prerequisite. The bike trackers and registries no, they're. I mean, I don't know if you've personally, or the listeners out there, have gone through a bike theft. It is mentally it really tough, and so just how nice would it be to get your bike back.

Peter Ladner: 18:03

So we have to promote that, we have to talk about it, but it's not mandatory, no, Speaking of getting your bike back in Project 529, what can you tell us about their success in retrieving stolen bikes? I know I've registered. I can't even remember if I paid. I don't think I did, but I'm never sure if that's going to make a difference if my bike disappears and it would have to be found by the police who look on the registry of 529. Is that how it works?

Nick van Egmond: 18:32

Yeah, correct. I mean, in the case of any theft right over a certain amount, you're going to call the police and have that police report. And if you can add to the police report, my bike is already registered on five to nine and a lot of people do it a little reactively of I just had a bike stolen and then they post it on social media and talk to their friends. I watch those posts all the time and one of every two comments is if you haven't already done it, register it on 529. So that is kind of common knowledge amongst cyclists. But go ahead.

Peter Ladner: 19:10

You can register after the theft.

Nick van Egmond: 19:13

Absolutely, you can do that reactively.

Nick van Egmond: 19:16

This isn't like insurance where you need to have the policy active before the theft or the damage. For anybody listening here who might very recently or in their network, be involved in a bike theft, if you have your proof of purchase, serial numbers, some descriptions, maybe a recent photo, you're able to upload all of those on 529 and aid the recovery of your bike. Absolutely Right, because, like the scenarios that are out there are, you know, let's use downtown Vancouver as an example. That's where the bike theft begins, but it's generally moved as quick as possible to another town, to another province, or it starts a worldwide tour. It could get recovered in another country and 529 is a now global safety net for recovered bikes that can slowly get that back to you, right? I mean a bike could end up in Mexico from Vancouver very easily. I mean the stats on the 529 site are pretty alarming. Two million North Americans per year are involved in bike theft. You know that's including the big population of the United States, two million cyclists we're talking about victims, not thieves.

Peter Ladner: 20:31

Correct, okay.

Nick van Egmond: 20:33

Yeah, it might be tough to count the amount of thieves, but, yeah, two million victims of bike theft and the market itself for the black market of bicycles is half a billion dollars annually. That's staggering numbers, right? So that's why we talk so much about these proactive measures.

Peter Ladner: 20:52

I thought that when bikes get stolen, they get taken apart and the parts get sold. Is that not the case?

Nick van Egmond: 21:00

I mean, that's a question for a criminal. No, that is the case. I mean the way we look at it is, if the bike is recovered, great, there's still most likely going to be a claim on your insurance because the bike could be spray painted or some of these nice parts could have been taken off and swapped with lesser parts, devaluing your bike or treat it as vandalism. And so every bike that is recovered, we push our policyholders to please go into your trusted local bike shop, have your mechanic do an assessment so that we know for sure that you know is there a claim? How do we make you whole again, right? How do we get that bike back to the same condition it was at before it was taken?

Peter Ladner: 22:02

Nick, you mentioned that this is a common type of insurance in other countries in the world. Why has it taken so long to come to Canada and how prevalent is it and how popular is it in other countries?

Nick van Egmond: 22:11

I mean, I look to the UK as my North Star. It tends to be the home of insurance. You know, people know, maybe like Lloyd's of London or it's where there's new products are made, and so if we look at this type of specialist bike insurance, the standalone kind of coverage that we're doing through Sundays in Canada if we were on this podcast in the UK we would have more than a dozen options for cyclists to look at, to go. I want to compare this bike insurance company versus that one. Who's got better rates? Who's got better coverage? Am I a part of a club or does my local retailer have some type of deal and discount? It's a big infrastructure. Or another way to look at it is you're a cyclist in the UK and the insurance on your bicycle comes from a special insurance policy for bicycles. They're a decade past thinking about my bike is insured under my home. Those days are gone. There's been a polar shift. Right, the bike insurance rules. It's that, or people just risk it and they pay out of pocket if something happens.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

Well, it sounds pretty exciting and I'm excited for you because I know this is a whole new chapter in your life and this product is now available and we're going to put all the links up on our show notes. Is there anything else you think people need to know about the gaps that this fills or the products that you offer that we haven't already talked about?

Nick van Egmond: 23:53

I think the best thing for the public is to, yeah, visit our websites, because it does link to a live team of Canadian brokers. We all ride bikes and we're here to answer those questions. There's a toll-free number set up, live chat email. We're actually looking for feedback from the public, right? This is a brand new type of insurance and that's not always easy for people to get, so we're here to answer questions. If you're challenged with how it works, give us a call.

Peter Ladner: 24:25

Does it apply equally to all places in BC? What if I'm in some smaller community? Will I get the same service?

Nick van Egmond: 24:35

We are currently operating and offering this coverage, which is identical to all residents of british columbia, alberta, ontario. Later this spring we will open manitoba and nova scotia. Going into next year the hope is to be across all of canada. But yeah, it's the same. There's just difference of taxation in. Yeah, it's the same. There's just difference of taxation in your province. That's it. Otherwise, same product. So this podcast could go nationwide. I hope it does.

Peter Ladner: 25:05

And you're sitting there in the Sunshine Coast masterminding all this. Do you have a network of brokers around? Let's just talk about BC. Does it matter where they're located?

Nick van Egmond: 25:22

Well, our brokers are all located relatively close to Vancouver and they're all licensed to work with any resident of British Columbia, so it doesn't really matter. We promote back to transportation even within the company. It's a work from home, digital right, so you're not going to a bicycle broker office to buy an insurance policy. You're dealing with over the phone, um or or through our website communications.

Peter Ladner: 25:50

If I remember of a biking club, would there be an opportunity for the whole club to get some kind of a discount deal with you?

Nick van Egmond: 25:59

That's where I want people to connect directly with myself through the website. We are, this summer, starting to release partnership programs for larger organizations, clubs and a retailer program. Most definitely, yeah, so that's all coming soon. You can use our website. There's a contact at bicyclebrokerca email address and just subject line partnerships.

Peter Ladner: 26:26

Well, nick. Thank you so much for filling us in on this. It's a pretty exciting new development which I hope will make life easier for cyclists and make more people more inclined to not just buy a bike but actually ride it and not be so terrified of having it stolen or damaged. We really appreciate your participation and we will put all the necessary links up on the show notes.

Nick van Egmond: 26:51

No, thank you so much to the BC Cycling Coalition all of your listeners. It's a pleasure interacting with you. I'll be at your trade shows and look forward to the feedback. Thank you so much.

Peter Ladner: 27:10

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. An original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. Email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

Find out all about Sundays specialist bike insurance at sundaysinsurance.ca.

Visit bicyclebroker.ca to learn more about bicycle insurance options.  

Find out how the simple act of feeling wind in your hair can transform a day of isolation into one filled with joy, connection, and even awakened memories.

Jennifer Reid, Co-Founder and Director of Vancouver Cycling Without Age Society, joins us to explore how specialized three-wheeled 'trishaws' are creating magical moments for seniors across British Columbia. What began with one bike named after Jennifer's mother has grown into a fleet of six trishaws serving 12 partner facilities throughout Vancouver, and chapters operating in 14 communities across BC. The program, which started in Denmark, now thrives in 41 countries with 3,500 chapters worldwide.

Release date: March 20, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show.

Peter Ladner: 0:40

I first found out about Cycling Without Age when my friend Stu his wife was very ill and facing the end of her days and he was taking her out on bike rides in a tri-shaw. She was unable to move on her own but she could sit in the front of this tri-shaw and be out in the outdoors riding around in Vancouver with the wind in her hair, and she and he both loved doing this. And then I found out there's a whole organization of people who do this on a regular basis. So I brought in today to talk to us about it, jennifer Reed, who's the co-founder and director of the Vancouver Cycling Without Age Society, which is one of 14 societies like this around BC, and indeed there are many in Canada and countries around the world. This around BC, and indeed there are many in the world. Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. Could you describe to me a moment that sticks in your mind when everything was going right with one of your rides.

Jennifer Reid: 1:42

Well, we established vancouver cycling without age society in 2018, so it would have been 2019, just before the pandemic. I was taking a gentleman and his wife, Harold and Maureen, for a trishaw ride and, um the care home where harold lived, uh called me and asked if we could lift because he no longer walked. So we had to use a special lift. That is a machine that helps pick them up, put them in the tri-shaw. Maureen sat beside him. We went for a lovely ride along the seawall here in Falls Creek and we got to where one of the marinas was and I pulled over and sort of I don't know, they were enjoying the scenery, they were holding hands, it was really lovely, nice big blanket and cozy. And so I said, hey, how did you two meet anyway? And Maureen sort of looked up at me, cause we sit behind them on the bike, and she looked at me. She kind of winked and said, hey, let's see if he says anything.

Jennifer Reid: 2:37

Harold suffered dementia and we didn't know if he was going to communicate or not. And he slapped his leg and said, yeah, that's a great story. And off he went to talk about their first date, which precipitated a conversation about White Rock and parking tickets and pubs and really great. And I turned and looked at Maureen and she had tears running down her face and she was obviously very, very happy. And he, from that point on he just kept talking. And so I learned that he was a very famous hairdresser in Karesdale. He did all the hair for all the movie stars that came to town that were on movie sets way back when. And yeah, he was just a lovely guy.

Jennifer Reid: 3:18

I think what really impacted me when I took them back to the care home was the care home staff said what did you do to this guy? And I said what do you mean? And they said he came in, he was hungry, he hadn't eaten in days and he slept well that night. His wife was super happy and I said I think it was just the fresh air and feeling the connection to community and and being feeling alive and uh, and it just brought great joy to all of us and so that's the most memorable one. We get a lot of couples that live in care homes together and they love to sit together and hold hands and cozy up with a blanket and talk about stories. So many many stories to tell you, peter.

Peter Ladner: 4:02

So what is a tri-shaw and how does it work when you're in it?

Jennifer Reid: 4:06

So a tri-shaw is a three-wheel bike. Two passengers sit in the front and the person riding the bike, which we call a pilot, is behind and they get pushed around. So it's a bit different than a rickshaw, which would have the person pedaling in front rather than behind, and so that way the people in the front get all of the scenery. They see everything in front of them. It's purposely designed Trishaw. They come from Copenhagen so they're imported. I think the people in Denmark know how to make bikes and they've got these blankets. They have little hoods, they're very safe and very comfortable. They're also electric assist, so as we're pedaling around, we do get a little bit of power assist when we're on a hill climb and yeah, so they're a great bike.

Jennifer Reid: 4:55

So how the care homes got involved I guess I'm going to take you right back to the beginning is my mom was in long-term care and at the time I would go and drive to the care home and take her for a drive in the car, and that then precipitated a whole bunch of other seniors standing at the window gazing out longingly, saying take me with you. So I got a van and I started taking people for rides and I just realized that being inside a machine or inside a vehicle wasn't the same experience as being outside, and it was during that time. A friend of mine said hey, jen, have you heard about cycling without age? And I said no, I hadn't. So did the research, signed up to be one of the chapters here in British Columbia and got approval to do that, and then we started fundraising for our first bike.

Jennifer Reid: 5:48

During that time of fundraising for the first bike, I thought I better go talk to some care homes and see what they think of this idea about us riding up and taking people outside for a bike ride. And every care home that I chatted with was on board with the idea. What they really liked about the idea was the conversation that happens with people sitting side by side, and also the fresh air, and also the idea of a bit of respite for the caregivers, the families, and the families sometimes come with us and it allows them the families, not to have to focus on, you know, feeding or toileting or any of those other things. They just get to sit and enjoy the experience with their loved ones. So between the research that I did early on with the care homes, active adult daycare centers, I also spent some time with the city of Vancouver asking about the bike lanes and how they would feel about our tri-shaws, because they're quite wide.

Peter Ladner: 6:43

When you say they're quite wide, are they wider than a cargo bike?

Jennifer Reid: 6:48

Yes, because two people are sitting side by side with them. So envision the bike lanes here around Falls Creek or around Stanley Park. Well, first of all, we don't go around the Stanley Park seawall.

Peter Ladner: 6:59

Because of those barriers.

Jennifer Reid: 7:00

The barriers correct. Where we actually spend our time in Stanley Park is inside the park around the lake. They love the nature and the outdoors. So Beaver Lake. Having said that, the City of Vancouver and the Park Board at the time, back in 2018, kind of went what was coming into play with bikes and scooters and other things. Once they understood that our bikes are electric assist and not a sort of throttle drive, then we wanted to go eight to 10 kilometers. So we do not want to go fast, we want to go slow. And then they understood our cargo, which are seniors and the ability to get seniors out and enjoying fresh air and back in community. They were very supportive and to the point where they actually helped us financially with one of the first bikes that we got.

Peter Ladner: 7:55

Have you heard from other chapters in BC how they're managing these issues when they don't have protected bike lanes?

Jennifer Reid: 8:05

Vancouver is probably in my experience of talking with the other chapters around British Columbia which, by the way, they're in some pretty amazing places like Fernie and Rosland and Trail and Penticton I'm pointing out the ones that are quite hilly but also in Kamloops and Vernon and other places so those areas aren't as well structured with bike lanes yet I would say Vancouver is. So I think our tri-shaws help create that conversation in their communities, which I think is a really lovely combination of recreational senior activity and cycling. I think almost every senior that we've taken has ridden a bike at some point in their life and so they understand that feeling and that freedom that you get when you're on a bike.

Peter Ladner: 8:53

I love the fact that this runs counter to the narrative that you've got to be some sort of sort of very fit young man to be a cyclist. This is showing how cycling can serve people of all ages and all abilities and all disabilities. So talk about the finances, Jen. You mentioned that the city helped you out with purchasing your first bike. These bikes you mentioned are made in Denmark. How much do they cost?

Jennifer Reid: 9:19

They're about 25 grand to purchase it, to get it here and also to insure it and store it. So we also add a little bit of annual bike maintenance that we need. On the trishaws. You can well imagine that we have a lot of flat tires, and brake pads are a big deal when you're carrying up to 500 pounds of weight, um. So that's that's the hardcore cost for us is 25 grand, um.

Jennifer Reid: 9:45

The other high cost for us, uh, between the bike, the insurance, the operations, there is storage because they are so large. We're very, very grateful that we have a partner here in Vancouver right now that, uh, we pay rent to store our bikes, but we are looking for other storage areas around the city, primarily in for other storage areas around the city, primarily in the west side or the west end and also the east side. It would just make it a lot quicker and a lot easier for us to go from a hub somewhere within a community out to where those senior care homes and parks and recreation areas are. So, yeah, that's going to mean that it's a lease or some rent or a really great partner that wants to get behind the initiative that we got going on.

Peter Ladner: 10:32

Do the people who take these rides pay anything?

Jennifer Reid: 10:38

So we have service agreements with the care homes and the adult daycare centers, just as the families would pay for their loved one to go on a bus ride around Stanley Park. It's very nominal what they pay, but the agreement is there as a contribution to our organization to keep our bikes on the road through things like insurance and maintenance and those types of things. So there's two major programs. One is our partner program which includes those care homes, community centers, neighborhood houses, adult daycare centers, wherever you're going to find seniors hanging out. That's where we kind of hang out into running this program.

Jennifer Reid: 11:25

I was getting phone calls from family members who were looking after their loved ones at home, not in a long-term care home, and they said, hey, how do we bring our loved one to you to take them for a ride? Like we can put them in a car and bring them to Jericho Beach, for example, could you take them for a ride? And we said absolutely so. We built out a community program which just allows us to have a scheduled location, pickup point and time so people can join us, and that's by donation. So most of the folks just figure out what a nominal fee is. That helps us with our operations.

Peter Ladner: 11:58

To give us some idea of the scale of this, could you tell me how many bikes you have and how many bikes they have in, I don't know, fernie or Kamloops or somewhere? By comparison, how big is this operation?

Jennifer Reid: 12:11

Well, worldwide, I can tell you that it's in 41 countries around the world in 3,500 chapters. So a chapter is like us. We're the Vancouver chapter, no-transcript the scotland chapter, who organized that relationship with the government to understand how they do it. And here in british columbia we are talking with our own government to see what that might look like so we can expand our operations as well. But, but to answer your question, in 2018, we started with one tri-shaw. It's named after my mom, since she died, so it's called the Jill.

Jennifer Reid: 13:14

And then we are now at six tri-shaws and we have 12 partners that we schedule on a weekly basis and community ride program. We haven't set it up yet for 2025, but usually it's a weekly. We pop up somewhere usually the West end or the West side or trout Lake or somewhere in those different areas to uh. We usually connect ourself to a senior community activity going on so we can be there to support, to support the seniors that just can't walk anymore. Sometimes it's fun just to show up at the farmer's markets and spend some time, you know, hanging out there as well, so there's always a conversation happening. It takes us a lot longer than the average person to get through a farmer's market.

Peter Ladner: 14:01

So you bring your, your riders to the pilots, bring the riders to the farmer's market and then just chat with people, or you just bring the empty tri-shaw to show them how it works.

Jennifer Reid: 14:12

Yeah, so, um, during the pandemic it was, it was more people showing up there. I mean, once we were clear to ride again in 2021, um, we, riley park was the main lead where we would go and people would meet us there. They were already going to go to the farmer's market anyway and I just said, well, hey, bring your senior loved one, parent, grandparent, whatever, and we'll just go slow, you know, through the booths and chat with people, and it just made a nice conversation and a feeling of connection to the community that they're in conversation and a feeling of connection to the community that they're in.

Peter Ladner: 14:50

So these are clearly different than the rides that most of us do every day for recreation or commuting or whatever. Could you describe some of the features of these rides? How are they different?

Jennifer Reid: 14:57

we go slow. I would say that's the biggest piece when we're training people. Right now, we're in the middle of training 30 new pilots for the 2025 season and the biggest aha, I think, of everybody is first of all, you're on three wheels, so they're tippy right. You have to go slow because you can't take a corner like you would on a two wheel bike, um, but I would say that, uh, the weight and it's the, it's the ability to um, command the tri-shaw in a way where you're using the power application to your advantage and not thinking, oh well, I'll just stand up and, you know, use my body power to make it work.

Jennifer Reid: 15:35

Almost everybody realizes pretty quickly you can't stand up and ride on these things. You have to sit, and it's really about you getting the understanding of the mechanics in a way that that the bike is working with you because it's all when you put, you know, a few hundred pounds of weight in it, it's, it's an experience, right. So we learned that it takes a long time. You know our training program each new pilot gets, you know, 15 hours of training time to learn how to ride these things, and that's not even with the seniors. You know, that's just understanding the bikes, and then on top of that, we also help train them on working with seniors and what it's like to work with people with dementia and what the conversation may or may not sound like working with somebody with dementia. So we're grateful that our care home partners actually partner with our training program to help us with that.

Peter Ladner: 16:29

It reminds me of. One of my relatives got involved with something where you're comforting people in times of trouble and going for walks with them, she said was very good because you didn't have to talk all the time, and I would expect to be the same with this. You can just ride and not worry about engaging in conversation, and as you might if you were just having a coffee with somebody.

Jennifer Reid: 16:54

Yeah, it reminds me of Joseph and Margaret. That's one of the couples that goes for a ride with us almost weekly during the summertime and Joseph isn't on verbal anymore and dementia, but he sees the bike because it's red and so there's something about the color of red that he lights up, he gets a smile on his face and we know he's happy. And then when his wife snuggles in next to him and he looks at her and like I get to go with the ride, so he, he just loves it. She talks the whole time.

Jennifer Reid: 17:24

Um, funny story about her is first time I took her for a ride, she brought a pair of little scissors with her and I was like why is she bringing scissors with her? And she kept saying her English was broken, so she's a English, cantonese, and so I said, margaret, why do you have scissors? And she kept pointing at the flowers in the gardens and she wanted to cut them and I said we can't do that, these are public parks. So she said shh, just do it anyway. And I said no, no, no, we can't do that. I felt bad. And so the next time I went to the care home I took her some flowers that I had purchased. And it was funny because the care home staff said Jen, come look at this, and I walk in and the whole kitchen area and the whole dining room were just covered in flowers.

Jennifer Reid: 18:05

It turns out Margaret was a very famous florist and she just wanted to just keep making flower arrangements.

Jennifer Reid: 18:11

And so when you take her for a ride and she saw the tulips or whatever was out in bloom at the time, she just felt compelled to have to cut them down.

Jennifer Reid: 18:20

So in the very long end of that story is that there's a few floral shops that when they're ready to throw out flowers or sort of end of life, they just kind of ship them over to that care home and she just makes these amazing flower arrangements and shares them with everybody in the care home. But so I had to sort of tell our staff hey, if Margaret ever comes with a pair of scissors, please don't let her cut the flowers. That's not what they're there for, but anyway. So once I diverted her attention away from that cause, she too had dementia and got her thinking about her husband and and what was going on. And she's very, very chatty, waves at everybody like the queen and um, but her husband was just happy to sit, you know, and uh, and you knew he was happy, you know, just being with her. So he recognized her and so he loves to go out.

Peter Ladner: 19:11

Jen, one of the things that strikes me as you're talking is this notion of the joy and happiness that comes from cycling, which those of us who cycle understand intuitively. But when you're trying to sell this to, let's say, a government that wants you, think you want to get to support you, they like data, like can you prove to me that people are happy? Can you show me data on joy, or what is your measurable that you can use to get support for this?

Jennifer Reid: 19:46

You know, statistically, fortunately, we have a new person in the seniors initiative at the city of Vancouver who's doing some great work on behalf of seniors in the province. In the province of British Columbia alone there's over a million seniors and it's just going to grow with the baby boomers getting older, so we know there's going to be more and more demand. Having spoken to the ministry and which ministry is this? It's the seniors group. I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly what.

Peter Ladner: 20:17

It's the seniors ministry, but not the transportation ministry.

Jennifer Reid: 20:20

I don't remember exactly what the seniors ministry but not the transportation ministry, no, no, we tend to.

Jennifer Reid: 20:22

That's kind of an interesting conversation, peter, because years ago we got very aligned with the transportation side of cycling and that helped when we were advocate for better bike lanes, better access to, you know, disabilities, to people that are blind, to autism, to all these other things, and I thought, well, I thought, wow, yeah, we could go anywhere anytime.

Jennifer Reid: 20:55

But I said I wanted to stay strong with why we started the program in the first place, and Cycling Without Age has always been about the seniors and those with disabilities as well. I think the pandemic did it. I think when all those seniors were passing away in long-term care, we started really paying attention to how we house our seniors in care homes and what life is going to look like for them as they age. So we're looking at aging in place, we're looking at ways to keep seniors connected to the communities that they have lived and worked in, we're looking at ways to keep seniors living at home longer before they have to move their transition to somewhere else, and so the conversations are getting deeper, which I'm appreciative of, so that we can figure out together, you know, how our program, as a recreation program can support some of the desires of care homes and their recreational needs, and we just need more bikes and more spaces to be able to do that.

Peter Ladner: 21:49

What are the barriers to scaling it? Finances, I'm sure is a big one, and how are you dealing with that?

Jennifer Reid: 21:57

We have fantastic fundraising initiatives that go on. I think the awareness is getting better over time. We've been actively operating for over five years, I think, being a part of something that's a global initiative. All of us can relate. We all have a senior in our life at some point in time that is aging or passing away. So when people hear about us, they you know we always get the thumbs up, we always get the wave, we always. But you can see the wheels turning like, oh, that's really cool. And then you know behind that comes our story, behind that comes a great be a part, help us figure out how this works.

Jennifer Reid: 22:36

So our biggest barrier right now is looking at locations that we can expand to in the communities where we ride. So, again, thinking of the West Side or the West End in particular, we work with the South Vancouver Seniors Network, which is fantastic, and they are a huge, strong group of people that are advocating for seniors and seniors needs especially the low income seniors and housing and things like that. So we get into those conversations with them all and what we're looking for is like hey, do you have a warehouse? Hey, you know, do you have a storage space in a recreation center in a community center. I mean, wouldn't it be great if we could connect all the community centers around Vancouver and build a program with them? I think that would be because the seniors are already coming to those locations. So all those conversations are happening, but it takes time.

Peter Ladner: 23:26

We're focusing on the riders, but tell me something about the pilots because, going back to my friend Stu, he's in his 80s, he has difficulty walking but he can ride that bike still and I gather you told me you know him and he's still taking people for rides. Are the pilots also benefiting from this? Are they two typically seniors or who pilots Family members?

Jennifer Reid: 23:51

Yes, stu's actually an interesting story. So, stu and his wife, they ended up with one of the tri-shaws that we were going to purchase and it was at the time where his wife was no longer mobile and and he really wanted to take her out and and get the fresh air and the enjoyment and he would ride all the way to steves and for fish and chips. You know, I'm nothing, he's a fondo rider. So, just so you know, he just had a double knee replacement. So he's ready to roll, he's ready to go. He still rides with us. Go, he still rides with us. He still owns his own tri-shaw. He comes with us, he helps us out whenever we need, so he gives us the seventh bike that helps us. Be lovely if we had some public that wanted to buy a tri-shaw for their own and then they wanted to be involved in our program. I think that would be great. Like you say, he's a very active man. He's probably our oldest pilot and our youngest pilot.

Jennifer Reid: 24:42

Weirdly and excitingly at the same time, she is a nurse that is graduating university right now. She came out with her grandma on Grandma's Day, so we had a three-generation ride with Madeline and she's, I would guess, in her late 20s, early 30s. And when I asked her why? Why do you want it? You're a busy young woman, you're finishing your nursing. I'm sure you would like to do way more fun things with your own generation, and she said no, this is incredibly important.

Jennifer Reid: 25:13

She goes. I only have a limited amount of time with my own grandma. I can imagine that most people only have a limited amount of time she goes. I want to be a part of this. Even if I can only ride once a week, which is what we request of our pilots. I want to be a part of it. It really helps me and she's thinking about gerontology as her nursing degree because of her grandma. And so one ride that we did last September on Grandparents Day got her hooked, and she one ride that we did last September on grand grandparents day got her hooked, and she's in our training program right now.

Peter Ladner: 25:45

So if I wanted to be a pilot, I would have to go through a training program, and then how long is the typical ride like from the beginning to end of the pilot's time?

Jennifer Reid: 25:59

Yeah, so it's a three hour volunteer time slot once a week. That's what we request Most of the pilots. So we started with myself and another co founder and we built it up to 22 pilots. Last year with four trishaws, we now have six trishaws. We're going to need probably about 40 different volunteers so that we can go out to the different areas.

Jennifer Reid: 26:25

Most of the time we're sending two or three trishaws together at a time because the social aspect of riding together is also fun, because we'll pull up to the Maritime Museum out in Kitsilano and look out at the ocean and start a conversation, and so it's a safety thing for us us, but it's also a social part of riding together. So, point being, we're going to have different pilots if we've got all six bikes going um on seven days a week. We need a lot of people. You come to the warehouse and prepare a bike to go out and then we get to a long-term care home. Most of the time what we're doing is we arrive care home. Most of the time what we're doing is we arrive and we have one hour slots and we do two of them back to back. So we'll have a group of four or six seniors come out. We'll go for a one hour ride, come back, drop them off, take another group, do another ride, drop them off, then the pilots go back to the warehouse. So it's about three hours each shift.

Peter Ladner: 27:20

Is it weather dependent?

Jennifer Reid: 27:22

Yeah, yeah, that's funny. We were just this weekend. You saw the weather. On Saturday I had to cancel the training because it was just so wet and miserable. We have gotten caught in the rain with. We've had seniors, but the the hoods that go over their head don't cover the entire body and the blanket doesn't either, and most seniors, their metabolism and everything keeps them a little cooler than the rest of us. So we're constantly trying to keep them warm so we don't ride in heavy, heavy rain. I mean, if it's light rain and the sun's going to come out, we'll go, because they kind of like it, they think it's a little bit of fun, right?

Peter Ladner: 27:58

What about winter?

Jennifer Reid: 28:00

No, we only ride from May to October. Right now we're in training from February to April and then we get rolling full-time May to October.

Peter Ladner: 28:10

If I were in a smaller community in BC that does not have one of these chapters and I wanted to start one up, what would I do?

Jennifer Reid: 28:18

Well, that's interesting because when we didn't have a tri-shaw, I phoned Carson at the time in Victoria, who had a tri-shaw, and I said, hey, carson.

Peter Ladner: 28:26

Who's Carson?

Jennifer Reid: 28:27

Oh, carson. He was one of the founders of the Victoria chapter. There's also a Sydney, british Columbia. There's a whole list of chapters that you can find on the website and also on the Canada website.

Jennifer Reid: 28:38

Well, it was hard to talk about a bike when you didn't have one. So I was going around to care homes doing presentations saying, hey, look, this would be wonderful. And they're there. They just couldn't sort of get a sense of it. And so I realized very quickly I needed a bike, I needed a trishaw, and so I phoned Carson. I said, hey, wheel that thing on a ferry and I'll come pick you up with a moto van and um, and then I could then roll it around the city and do demo rides and it really, really helps. So all of us who run chapters have that very that pay it forward sense. So, as a matter of fact, maple Ridge came and did a ride with us and they're busy fundraising to get a chapter going, and I said, hey, if you have a special senior event we'll come out and you know, help you out with it. So I think what you'll find in the other chapters around the province, you know, if there was a small community that wanted to get going. Whoever the closest chapter was to them, would be more than willing to come and help for a day or so, because we've all been stuck with this feeling of how do we get started when we don't have a bike? You know, fundraising is the cart and horse is what it is.

Jennifer Reid: 29:43

The most common way that people start a chapter for cycling without age is through a care home. So they build a relationship with one care home, usually because their parent is in the care home and the care home goes, hey, we'll store it, we'll insure it and we'll, you know, you ride it from here, which was lovely. But when I was looking at it, I said, well, it and we'll, you know you ride it from here, which was lovely. But when I was looking at it, I said, well, that's really limiting though, because then that Trishaw sits in the basement for all the days that nobody wants to ride it and the rest of the community is not getting a chance to to be a part of that. So when we sat down and talked and said, okay, this is going to be the hardest way to do this, but let's, let's establish ourselves as a non-for-profit society with charitable status, and that'll allow us to go where we want to go.

Jennifer Reid: 30:30

So that's when we decided that we were going to build relationships with what we call partners and we weren't obligated to any one partner. We could do what we needed to do to expand the operations. So yeah, I think for us, because of the way that we've done it, we have sort of a, we have a way to keep those wheels on the ground and rolling and the bikes maintained and insured and all those other things that we have to look after them. We have hired an executive director for our program and he's now looking after all the fundraising and other things for us. So that allows us that growth that would naturally happen.

Jennifer Reid: 31:09

Whereas if you're established with one care home, it's a great program don't get me wrong but it is limiting to do it that way. Having said that, the chapters around British Columbia, like in Penticton it runs out of One Sky, which is a community center. Up there In Vernon it runs out of one of the care homes, but they have partnership agreements with other care homes. In Fernie it runs independently and then they actually ride in the snow. They put studs on them and ride in the snow. It's awesome. So every chapter just kind of figures it out and does it differently.

Peter Ladner: 31:47

Well, thinking about that nurse who's got a future in gerontology. Gerontology is coming on strong and there are many of, I must say, us seniors and I would think the demand for this is pretty huge, like almost unlimited. And you're just scratching the surface. Are there places like in Denmark, for example?

Jennifer Reid: 32:13

where there really is. It's a big proliferation of these bikes and providing this service. I can't speak to Denmark, but I think the countries that are run by the government are probably the biggest. Singapore is huge. I don't know exactly how many bikes they have. Scotland, I know, is huge. I don't know exactly how many bikes they have. Scotland, I know is hundreds.

Jennifer Reid: 32:26

And I only know this because I went to their head office, which happened to be near the Kelpies and near their Falkirk wheel, if you know where that is in Scotland and all of their tri-shaws were stored on in a. It was like an old greenhouse on a golf course. No-transcript. You're going to need it. And that was my first question to the gang in Scotland was I said so what's your biggest hurdle to get over? And they said, well, it bike maintenance. So when something breaks or like literally breaks, not just a flat tire, you know how do we get to them in a very remote community to fix them. So they've figured that out by building up sort of a train, the trainer bike mechanic program, and they go around the country and they do all that.

Jennifer Reid: 33:36

So I would say there's to scale it. You know you need the support of many businesses within the cities. The idea in Scotland, for example, is that if a community wants to have a tri-shop, then the government of Scotland will say that's great, put in your application, fundraise and get some money towards it, put some skin in the game and when they hit a certain level of fundraising, then that bike goes into that community and with it comes a service agreement and how it's going to be maintained and what have you? So branding and all those other lovely things that go with it as well. And training and training the people to ride them, training the community how to build the relationships, the care homes, I mean. Really that's not the hard part, they have the strong relationships. As it is, it's more understanding the bike and the bike's abilities, the tri-shock's abilities.

Peter Ladner: 34:28

This is a wonderful program, jen, and I'd love to see it expanded more, and I can see a lot of people wanting to do it. Just on the sponsorship matter, are there typical businesses that would step up, or are there cases where the bikes themselves are branded, like our shared bikes? Are that would give value to a sponsor, and are there sponsors eager to step up?

Jennifer Reid: 34:54

Yeah, I mean we're looking for sponsorship for our two newest bikes. They're unnamed at this moment in time. All of our tri-shows get names unnamed. At this moment in time All of our trishaws get names. So we're looking for that kind of fundraising opportunity for a business who would like to align their vision and mission with our initiative and get a little bit of exposure as we ride around the city. I would say the most people that are working with us in terms of helping us financially have been family foundations, a few individuals that donate very kindly. There's lots of in-kind. We're trying to build stronger relationships with Vancouver Coastal Health and just being able to build up those partnerships as well, not from a financial perspective, but more from a location or a partnership perspective.

Peter Ladner: 35:43

Well, it sounds like you've got a lot of work, but more from a location or a partnership perspective.

Peter Ladner: 35:47

Well, it sounds like you've got a lot of work to do and a lot of work has been done, but I would just congratulate you on making this possible for people and demonstrating the potential to other places in the province that are also doing this and could expand.

Peter Ladner: 36:03

And it sounds very wonderful and brings out, I think, some of the best in biking, where the pilot's getting some exercise, the people are getting the fresh air, the wind in their hair and seeing out in nature. I think we underestimate that, as you said at the beginning, compared to being in a van and I've taken senior friends of mine around driving and it's been wonderful you open the door at some place and let them just soak it up but I could see how this would be so much more fun and I think the elements of fun, joy and happiness are so much a part of it, and I love those stories about the people with dementia kind of coming to life in a way they don't typically just because they're at the time they're on the bikes Is there anything else you'd like to add?

Jennifer Reid: 36:52

I think I just wanted to add that you know there's lots of other ways to volunteer with us, but the one that is the most popular is riding the tri-shaws. And when I ask the volunteers that ride the tri-shaws because we've had many that have been with us for four or five years that just keep coming back they love that it's seasonal, they love that they're getting exercise Albeit, you're not getting a workout, but you're getting some exercise. You're, you're connecting to a community, you're giving of yourself and your time, you're learning something about these amazing people and you're sharing. You know you're sharing Vancouver. You feel a bit like an ambassador of the city, vancouver, you feel a bit like an ambassador of the city.

Jennifer Reid: 37:26

So it's as, as a few of our long term volunteers have said you know it's checks all my bucket lists of wanting to be involved and I think, as seniors are retiring they're, they're very active seniors. They want to be doing something and volunteering is a great way to give back. So you know, we create a really easy structure for them to step into and be a part of. We give them the. So you know, we create a really easy structure for them to step into and be a part of. We give them the training. There was a lot of social time where we get a chance to go out and do fun things together. Yeah, so it's a win-win-win and I have yet to have a bad experience. Even when somebody's having a bad day, they, you know, inevitably they'll go. Let's keep going because now I'm feeling good. So, yeah, it's. It's puts a smile on our face all the time.

Peter Ladner: 38:10

Fantastic. Thank you so much, jen, and thank you for sharing this with us, and we will put information in the show notes for people who want to help out, as being a bike mechanic or sponsor or start a program or expand it or find out more from you. So thanks so much for joining us.

Jennifer Reid: 38:27

No, thank you for your time. It's amazing.

Peter Ladner: 38:34

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.

To learn how you can help bring the wind-in-your-hair experience to seniors in Vancouver and throughout British Columbia visit: cyclingwithoutage.ca/vancouver and globally here: cyclingwithoutage.org

Check out cycling without age on social media here:

facebook.com/cwavancouver
instagram.com/cwa_vancouver
linkedin.com/company/cwavancouver

Check out the film here: cyclingwithoutagethemovie.com

Contact Jennifer Reid at jenreid@cyclingwithoutage.ca

Active transportation in Indigenous communities isn't just a matter of movement — it's also about culture, identity, and safety. Aaron Pete, Chawathil First Nation Councillor (and Podcaster!), shares how the Chawathil are forging partnerships to support the Coast to Canyon Trail near Hope, BC, identifying the changes necessary for safe travel within the region, and integrating traditional values into modern transportation plans.

Check out Aaron's podcast, Bigger Than Me, where he chats with leaders and change makers from across the political/cultural spectrum.

Release date: January 27, 2025

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. At the Active Transportation Summit in June 2024, Aaron Peet was a presenter and gave us an insight into issues facing Indigenous communities that are quite different from the rest of BC, and we've invited him onto the podcast today to talk about how active transportation plans are affecting his own community and how he foresees the future for active transportation in Indigenous communities. Welcome, Aaron Peet. Thank you so much for having me. Now I'm going to do something. You have a podcast You've done 180 podcasts and I'm in the hands of a master here and I notice you always ask people to introduce themselves, so I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself.

Aaron Pete: 1:18

My name is Aaron Peet. I am a counsellor with Chihuahua First Nation, I host the Bigger Than Me podcast and I work as the strategic relations manager for Métis Nation BC.

Peter Ladner: 1:28

And you have a law degree, by the way, I do. Yes, could you tell us how transportation has changed in your community over the past 200 years?

Aaron Pete: 1:40

That's a very interesting question. So I've actually been doing a lot of work learning about a lot of this history. So, historically, pre-contact, we actually had a location called T'Kols and it is where the District of Hope's main area is today, and that was our village site and we actually have photos from that period. Um, throughout contact, we were actually displaced and moved over from where to calls was over to what we call chihuahua ir4 indian reserve 4 and that moved us farther away from our usual fishing sites, village sites, and the consequence of that shortly thereafter was that highways were then also put in that further displaced us and disconnected us from our ability to move back and forth from community to community safely. And I would say that's where we are today is we are farther away from the District of Hope. We're about a 10, 15 minute drive from the District of Hope and a significant like an hour walk along two different highways in order to get into town. There are very narrow points where there are bridges, and these are some of the constraints our community is facing now.

Peter Ladner: 2:53

And people in your community where you are a councillor. They have to go to Hope quite regularly, I assume, for groceries and so on. There are a few amenities in your community, Is that right?

Aaron Pete: 3:08

Correct. We don't have grocery stores, so everything that you have to go pick up, taking your kids to school, all of those are commutes outside of the community.

Peter Ladner: 3:16

And I noticed that the plan that you've done you recorded that 100% of your trips right now are made by car and yet you've got ambitions for an active transportation plan. Can you describe how you're going to get from where you are now to a more active form of transportation and why that's even important or necessary?

Aaron Pete: 3:39

So we actually started off engaging the community on this front, and I guess I'll just backtrack a little bit. My understanding of active transportation was actually introduced when I was a native court worker, assisting Indigenous people through the legal system, and a predominant amount of the files that I was dealing with were driving while prohibited, driving without a license and other motor vehicle infractions for driving without a proper insurance or license, and so that's predominant across, from my understanding at least, the Fraser Valley. And so, coming into this role, I knew as a council member that this was a pain point, and so we started and applied for $50,000 from the federal government for an active transportation plan. We did that back November 2022. Throughout 2023 and consulted the community. We did open houses, community surveys, focus groups and really got to know what the community was looking for. And this was a pain point for them as well.

Aaron Pete: 4:42

Within the Fraser Valley, we have lost members as a consequence of them having to commute on the highway by walking, being hit by semis. Those types of issues have arisen. So this is a well-known issue within Indigenous communities, and so we started communicating. We started putting up maps on some of our ideas. We actually met with our floodplain mappers and team there to start to understand where they think some good trails could be, where we're putting in dikes and stuff to further encourage that. And then we started reaching out to organizations like the Fraser Valley Regional District and other stakeholders like Tourism BC to understand where their goals for regional active transportation were, and one of those was the Costa Canyon Trail. And throughout this process we've been able to engage organizations like Enbridge, cp Rail, other funders like TransCanada Trails to start to get funding, to start to look at design. So we are in the design phase. We've finished our active transportation plan. Now we're designing and implementing.

Peter Ladner: 5:50

Tell us for a minute about the Coast to Canyon Trail. You said that the design has been done. How much of that has been built and what would that look like when it's built out?

Aaron Pete: 6:00

So the Coast to Canyon Trail starts, from my understanding, somewhere in Vancouver or New Westminster, and the dream has always been for trails to be able to go from there all the way to the canyon, which is Hope, and a lot of that has, from my perspective, been completed.

Aaron Pete: 6:16

Obviously, a lot of that falls outside of Chihuahua's jurisdiction, but we were looking at what can we implement within our region to support this trail. So we have about four to six kilometers of that trail that we can start to implement and we have actually the space. We've spoken to CP Rail, we've spoken to the Ministry of Transportation of our goals to begin to implement this. That way, if somebody does need to walk, bike run or cycle to town, they would have a safe way to do so where they're not on the road. So we're working with Trans Canada Trails. They've funded some grants to do some of the design work and starting to figure out exactly where that would go. There are some very narrow points where we do need some further design to figure out how we support people where the highway really constricts and there's not a lot of space on either side, in order to reach some of these goals, to make sure that it's feasible all the way through.

Peter Ladner: 7:10

And how far are you in your estimation, in the completion of your portion of this project like that would enable your community to meet its transportation needs without having to drive?

Aaron Pete: 7:23

We are, I would say, probably maybe five to ten years away from actually having that section completed. We are in the planning. We just finished the planning stage. Now we're trying to figure out where those pain points are, designing that and then the cost to actually implement that. We're starting to speak with funders to see who has the dollars for implementation, because six kilometers of developed trail, whether we look at paved or gravel, that's all going to be a significant cost. And so now we're reaching out to stakeholders to kind of engage who's willing to participate. How do we make sure we recognize them in their support? Is there ways to put up signs that say supported by Enbridge, supported by CP Rail, supported by the Ministry of Transportation, in order to kind of get their buy-in as well?

Peter Ladner: 8:07

As an Indigenous community, do you have access to other funds that are specially allocated to Indigenous causes and projects like this?

Aaron Pete: 8:19

I don't think we have access to special funds, but I would say that we have special considerations that we're starting to receive and funders are able to kind of look at our application somewhat differently because the challenges that we have are so much different than challenges faced by individuals living in a municipality. Municipalities have a tax base to pull from, and First Nation communities we don't have that same tax base, and so we do rely more heavily on grants and their ability to understand that we're in unique circumstances. We're not just wanting trails because they're nice to bike on or because we enjoy the experience, or we're doing it because we actually need safe transportation for people who might not have licenses in order to get to and from community. How much support is there for this in your community? I would say very high support. We continue.

Aaron Pete: 9:17

We just did an infrastructure survey with the community and we again pulled very strongly in support of active transportation. Particularly the Costa Canyon Trail, I think is more interesting perhaps to your viewers. But within our community there needs to be more connections for people to get from their house to the band office without having to drive, and so we've developed. The Enbridge line actually runs through our community and there's huge interest from the community to have that, because then they wouldn't have to drive four minutes from their place to the band office, they'd have a safe place to walk and it would be private trails for them to enjoy. And we haven't really had that. It's always been kind of walking through the grass, and so the idea of having beautiful scenery throughout the forest that's only member accessible is something I think that really excites them, because it's their ability to reconnect with the land in a more private way than the Costa Canyon Trail would look. So there's huge support for that Enbridge Line Trail.

Peter Ladner: 10:11

Can you describe what the impact of that Enbridge Line is? Is this like a hydro right away, where everything's cleared out and now you're left with an open path that can be replanted in different ways?

Aaron Pete: 10:23

Yes, so they have one of their pipelines that comes through our community and it is fairly wide I'd say it's probably 30 meters wide and there's special spots where we would be able to develop these trails that wouldn't impact the actual pipeline, is very supportive of that. But it runs through the whole of our reserve and so, um, tourists wouldn't be able to access it, but it would be a way for communities to go for nice long walks throughout their community. Um, we have lots of wildlife that they'd be able to enjoy and that would be just for their benefit to connect the communities more so because right now and this is true for many first nation communities there's a house and then like five blocks and then another house, and so the connection between homes has always been a challenge, and this will kind of integrate the community and make it more accessible for people to connect.

Peter Ladner: 11:18

Now you said that your community, the Chihuahua community, is separate from the SCAM community, which is just slightly north of Hope, is separate from the SCAM community, which is just slightly north of Hope. What's the distance between those communities and do you have families that are spread out between those two communities?

Aaron Pete: 11:37

Yes, it's around a 50-50 split. Scam is mainly higher ground, so we don't have to worry about the floodplain. Chihuahua IR4 is within the floodplain, so that's one of the challenges that we have with our Chihuahua IR4 is that we were also displaced to a location that is. We're working with Northwest Hydraulics and they've identified that we're very deeply within the floodplain and at very, extremely high risk, and we saw that during the 2021 atmospheric river, and so a lot of our new developments are looking at SCAM. The challenge is it is about a five to seven minute drive from Chihuahua to SCAM. Again, the highway narrows throughout those points and so people are walking very, very close to highway traffic in order to go from one community to the other or relying on somebody to drive them. But SCAM is another area where we're looking at further development, so we also want to see further growth in terms of active transportation. Our first trail that we built was actually up at SCAM, around the ball field, and we've actually accomplished that a couple of months almost a year back in August, sorry.

Peter Ladner: 12:43

You're also looking for a bridge over the highway, a grade separated crossing. How likely is that to happen and is that a that would sound like a major cost?

Aaron Pete: 12:56

that is likely to happen. I guess I should reframe the question you asked me before. We do have special funding, in the sense that we are supported by Indigenous Services Canada and they have funds specifically for Indigenous communities in order to accomplish infrastructure goals and make sure that we're served. Again, since we don't have a tax base, we rely on the federal government support for a lot of these initiatives, and so we are working with them right now to do a feasibility study on whether or not we would look at a bridge or a tunnel, on whether or not we would look at a bridge or a tunnel. There's concerns with both, but we're not okay with an accurate crosswalk, which was proposed by the Ministry of Transportation initially. We don't feel comfortable with that. People from what's called K Street have to cross the road over to Scam in order to catch the bus, and we don't feel comfortable with our children having to cross the number one highway in order to catch the bus in the morning. We're looking at potentially having a daycare up at SCAM, and so people would have to take their kids across the road again in order to access those services, to access the parks and all of those pieces. We have a cultural centre up at SCAM, so we need something that's more safe for people to get across. So we're speaking with Indigenous Services Canada, the Ministry of Transportation and we're working on a feasibility study right now in order to look at some of those costs.

Aaron Pete: 14:11

What's the most feasible? There's a lot of hesitation with a tunnel because a lot of wildlife would likely go through there. It can become an unsightly premise and there can be challenges with people who are unhoused in those areas, and so those are some of the concerns. The concerns with the bridge would be that young people like to cause shenanigans and there's a risk that they might utilize that bridge in order to cause some challenges for oncoming traffic, and so we're considering all of those things as we move forward. I do think that there's a huge momentum within our council and leadership and within the community to want to see that project come to fruition, and so I do think that there's a strong likelihood that it comes to life. That's a three to five year project in order to get implemented, but I think as long as we have that community support, we'll be able to get that across the finish line.

Peter Ladner: 15:03

It's interesting. You say that as three to five years and I said earlier that sounds like a big project, but when you compare that to the highway projects that we do, there's no way a little thing like that, compared to a big highway exchange, would take that long.

Aaron Pete: 15:16

In another First Nation community I can see the hydro poles that go through the forest up a mountain, and that's an incredible feat for Canadians, for British Columbians, that were able to do those things. But yes, when an organization comes back to me and says that's really expensive, it's like my argument is that we were displaced here. It wasn't our preference to be here.

Peter Ladner: 15:53

We wouldn't have had these issues if we weren't displaced, and so we do need some give and take on these fronts to make sure that it is feasible for our members to live here aaron, if you figure out how to get a the highways, to put a pedestrian overpass on a highway, there are communities all over this province aching for that solution and realizing that to truly realize an active transportation integrated plan, you have to have ways of crossing these highways, and so I I really hope that works for you. I want to ask you something about. One of the things that you're trying to do is integrate culture and tradition into your plans. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Aaron Pete: 16:37

So I actually had the opportunity during law school to study some more of the history of how Indigenous people traveled, and we have the statistics that people traveled from Alaska all the history to learn more about how people traveled vast distances. And I think the part that's really interesting to me about us being an oral culture is that the stories that you hear about the mountains served two purposes from my perspective. One was they were moral stories, very similar to biblical stories on how to live a good life. They taught you a lot about philosophy, how to be a good contributing person in your community. But then two, they are also a geographic map. If you understand the story, you understand where you are geographically, because they wouldn't have had GPS or anything like that, so they were serving dual purposes. So when you get to learn some of that history about Mount Siam and stuff, you start to realize that these are actually geographic points that you would be able to identify if you're traveling through from Alaska all the way down to California and having those stories you would tell along your walk to keep track of where you were and learn some things along the way.

Aaron Pete: 18:01

The challenge I always remind people with written traditions is that often they get disconnected or they don't make as much sense, Like. People know who Shakespeare was, but how much can they tell you about what those stories actually meant or the lessons to be learned from them? That's where people start to drop off for written traditions but oral traditions. If you don't understand something, then it's my job as the storyteller to shape it in a way that does make sense to you. So those stories were able to survive for so long because people were really able to take them in and see themselves reflected in those stories, and so I like that piece and I think there's ways to incorporate that history and that rich culture into these trails.

Peter Ladner: 18:42

Fantastic, so interesting. Aaron, I know you have a tight deadline. We're going to let you go, but I would just like to leave us with a plug for your podcast. Tell us it's called Bigger Than Me and tell us what you do with that podcast and why our listeners might be interested in it.

Aaron Pete: 18:56

It's called the Bigger Than Me podcast. I interview people from all different backgrounds. I had the opportunity to interview all of the party leaders for the last BC election. That was David Eby, kevin Falcon, john Rustad and Sonia Fersonow and that was a huge opportunity. But I go down all different types of paths to learn about people's journey and why they do what they do and why they love making a difference in their community.

Peter Ladner: 19:21

Well, let us know the next time you're going to do one that's even remotely related to transportation. We'd be happy to help you promote it. Thanks so much, Aaron, and good luck with that project.

Peter Ladner: 19:30

Thank you so much, I appreciate it you've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the bc cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca.

Check out Aaron's podcast, Bigger Than Me, where he chats with leaders and change makers from across the political/cultural spectrum.

UBC Prof and Transportation Engineer Dr. Alex Bigazzi explains how e-bike rebate programs are transforming the transportation landscape in BC. Dr. Bigazzi has all the data on who gets the subsidies, how the bikes are being used, whether anyone is taking a 'free ride' on the program, and whether e-bikes are actually replacing cars ... or bikes.

Dr. Bigazzi also shares how a pioneering subsidy initiative in Saanich paved the way for broader provincial adoption, and which strategies are successfully encouraging people to swap their cars for e-bikes thereby reducing carbon emissions and improving public health.

Spoiler alert: it turns out that fun and joy are the key motivators for getting people onto bikes, and keeping them there.

Release date: December 23, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. In the summer of 2021, the municipality of Saanich introduced BC's first e-bike rebate program, where people were subsidized to buy e-bikes. The success of that program led to a province-wide rebate program for e-bikes introduced in May 2023, where the province would give people between $350 and $1,400, depending on their income, to buy an e-bike, and they allocated $6 million for this. They thought it would reach 9,000 people and the day they opened up the applications, their website crashed. There were so many people applying. We have a guest today who probably knows more about all this than anybody in the world. His name is Dr Alex Bagazzi. He is a transportation engineer associate professor at UBC and his special area of focus and research is non-motorized and lightly motorized transportation and the intersection of physics, physiology and behavior for active travelers. Welcome, dr Alex Bagazzi.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 1:50

Thank you so much, peter, it's great to be here.

Peter Ladner: 1:52

Before we start, I noticed in your bio that you have a background as a jazz musician. How did you go from being a jazz musician to a transportation engineer?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 2:02

as a musician to a transportation engineer. Yeah, that is true. My first university degree was in music and I played music and had a bit of a vagabond lifestyle for a while.

Peter Ladner: 2:13

Did you ride around on an e-bike during that vagabond lifestyle?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 2:16

No, no, this was the early 2000s, so not a lot of e-bikes around then.

Peter Ladner: 2:22

A van, maybe with Grateful Dead.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 2:27

Yeah, more like that. And yeah, a little bit later on, I was looking for a big change and some way to have a little bit of a different type of impact on the world. And so and I looked around and transportation systems seemed like something that needed some work and really had a big impact on people's lives, and so that's why I ended up in transportation.

Peter Ladner: 2:53

Well, thank you for doing that. So you looked at the Saanich program, you evaluated it, with some help from the Saanich municipality and the provincial government, but mainly it was your initiative and you got the money together to do that. What did you find out? Did it work?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 3:09

Yeah, absolutely so. Uh, short answer is yes, it worked. The the, the incentives were um, remarkably successful in both attracting new e-bike riders and in having those e-bike riders use their bike regularly, even a year after purchase, and in the long-term follow-up that we did. And a fairly large portion of that e-bike travel was displacing automobile use, which is kind of the ideal thing when we're looking at having positive impacts on climate change and affordability and public health and things like that. So, yeah, quite a large success.

Peter Ladner: 3:52

And that success led to the province being emboldened to do their program. And you have looked somewhat at the province's program. Are you seeing the same successes and did it have the same goals of displacing car travel?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 4:08

Yeah, so we are right now finishing the 12-month follow-up of the people that we recruited into our study from the provincial program and so far, from what we've seen in the interim analysis that we've done, it looks like the results are quite similar to what we saw in Saanich. There's a few differences because there's a few different aspects to the way the program was structured. They're similar but not equivalent, and so we're seeing a little bit of a difference, and also people in the BC program are in a wider range of contexts than Saanich and so there are some differences and we'll soon be able to dig into that full data set and hope to have all the results out sometime in the spring, in a few months.

Peter Ladner: 4:54

On the impacts of the provincial-wide program, which was much larger, as you said, Well, speaking of a wider range of context, I know that e-bike program rebates are being done all over the world and many, many cities in North America are doing them, and so this is not a new thing and it must be working because they're all doing it and continuing to do it. But, looking at different contexts, how effective are e-bikes in a rural part of the province where maybe it gets more snow and the distances people have to go are longer and the protected routes are fewer?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 5:30

Yeah, that's a great question and one of the main things that we'll be able to look at once we have the BCY data all analyzed because that Santa's context is more constrained and and most um of the e-bike incentives that have been um, uh, done so far well, actually they're.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 5:51

They're at all levels of government. So there's some cities doing them, like Saanich, like Denver, um, there are some provinces and States doing it, like now BC has done it, um, california is working on some, and there's even been some countries that have done it in Europe, like the Netherlands, and so there are a range of these incentives and they do have different effects. However, we haven't had enough kind of analyses of different programs in different contexts to be able to say how much their effectiveness varies In general. We do know that people use e-bikes differently in different contexts, but in terms of the effects of the incentives, it's still pretty early to say. There hasn't been a lot of rigorous analysis, which was one of the big motivations of us developing an evaluation program to accompany the rebate programs in Saanich and BC, and we've been super appreciative of the District of Saanich and the province well, both for their leadership in launching these programs but also for their eagerness to engage with researchers to do an independent evaluation of the effects.

Peter Ladner: 7:03

People looking at these, just taking a quick sudden look at it, might say well, yeah, but so I get $1,400 for an e-bike. Why don't I just go and sell it and keep the $1,400 and not worry about riding my e-bike around? Has that happened? Did you research that?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 7:24

It's hard to know the extent to which that is happening. It probably is happening, some. It's possible. It's definitely a risk with this and all types of incentive programs, but it doesn't appear to be a large issue, just based on the few times that administrative agencies have been able to go in and go back and follow up with people who've received the e-bike rebates. All these programs have agreements that people who receive the rebates have to agree to before they can get the rebate, which includes things like not selling it and keeping it for 12 months. So what you're describing would be a violation of the terms, which can definitely happen. But a kind of bigger concern, actually in terms of the effectiveness of these programs, is what we call free riding, which is just people getting the rebates who would have bought an e-bike anyway, and that's, you know, within the allowances of the program, because the program doesn't say what you would have had to have done anyway, because there's no way to really know for certain what would have happened in that, in that other world.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 8:30

So, um, when we're evaluating the effects of the programs, one of the most important things to quantifying how impactful it was is trying to tease out and separate the people who would have bought an e-bike anyway without the rebate from those who would not.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 8:48

And that's a big part of it, and it is also a big piece of trying to design a program that's more effective.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 8:59

I'll say one of the things that made Saanich's design so unique and really on the vanguard of these types of incentive programs is their approach to tiering the amount of the incentive to the household's income.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 9:17

And they did that specifically to achieve two things. First of all is to enhance the equity of the program, so to make sure that people who were in greater need of assistance got more assistance, so to achieve both kind of climate and equity goals simultaneously. But also some pre-program modeling analysis that we had done before the Sanus program launched suggested that lower income households are actually also more price sensitive. So they are more likely to be these marginal purchasers who wouldn't have bought without the rebate, as opposed to higher income households which are more likely to be free riders. They were more likely to buy an e-bike anyway because they have more capacity to do that. So there's a way that we can target both equity and effectiveness by income conditioning the incentives, which is one of the novel and, I think, really successful aspects of both the sandwich and the provincial program and the richer people get a much smaller amount of money, like in the provincial one, they only get 350 bucks.

Peter Ladner: 10:31

So that's really, you know, not a painful free ride. So what did you find out about how people use these e-bikes? Who? Who benefited the most, and did people actually get out and ride them, and did people actually get out and ride them.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 10:43

Yeah, they used them quite a bit, on average three to four times a week. We recruited a control group of people who purchased non-incentivized e-bikes and people who purchased conventional bicycles as well, so we can do a robust comparison, and what we found is that the people who purchased the e-bike were substituting auto trips much more than people who used conventional bicycles, at actually twice the rate. So around 20% of conventional bicycle trips, or trips made by a purchased conventional bicycle, were substituting for auto trips, whereas around 40% to 45% of e-bike trips were replacing automobile trips, either as a driver or a passenger, and so we really are seeing quite a lot of mode shift. These are people who were not e-biking before, and most were not conventional bicycling before either.

Peter Ladner: 11:39

So you have solved the cheater conundrum. When people who have regular bikes find friends with e-bikes, they call them cheaters. But those of us with e-bikes say, well, yeah, but compare taking an e-bike with taking a car ride, and you're not cheating at all. You're getting more exercise. And I gather that people with e-bikes end up getting more exercise because they take them out more often. Is that what you found too?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 12:06

So you're exactly right, peter, and I'll be honest. So I actually don't ride an e-bike but I do ride a conventional bicycle quite a lot and the nature of the devices we see in bike lanes and paths has changed. And there's a whole separate research project we did now looking at four-year trends in mode shares on off-street paths and speeds, and what we found is that there has been an enormous growth in e-bikes and other electric devices in these paths and that has led to an increase in speed, which does lead to kind of less comfort and more conflict. So it is a shift in the transportation system. So there's an understandable kind of response to people who were using it before in the more conventional just conventional bicycle and pedestrian modes. But one of the things I do like to remind people is that most of the e-bikers would not have been cycling anyway. Most of this is car or a much larger share is car mode shift than conventional bike shift. And so you know, would you rather be interacting with an electric bike or with a car?

Peter Ladner: 13:24

One of the premises of this program is that finances are a barrier maybe the biggest barrier to e-biking. But I noticed that there was also, in the provincial program, a promotion of education so people who didn't know how to ride or weren't sure of the rules of the road could be educated. And we all know that the biggest barrier for people riding more is protection and safety.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 13:51

And so, between finances and education and protected lanes, which would you say are the most important factors for getting a mode shift going, that's a great question and so, just to be clear, I'm now speaking we didn't actually analyze that question within this research, but speaking more broadly, because we have done a lot of research on this type of question, infrastructure is absolutely essential, absolutely essential, and that needs to be the foundation of any cycling policy, any cycling policy. I have heard some governments kind of hinted this. So we need to make sure that, although e-bike incentives are very effective, they are not kind of the answer for people who are looking to promote active transportation. They are one complementary strategy within a suite of strategies to promote active transportation that needs to center on infrastructure. And then e-bikes can be an important tool for helping especially lower income households, enabling them to access lightly motorized, non-automobile transportation options for some of their trips. But it really does need to center on infrastructure first.

Peter Ladner: 15:06

Can you talk about the type of trips that people use their e-bikes for? Because the classic argument about bikes is well, yeah, that's great, but how am I going to get my kid to a soccer game or pick up the groceries or get that load of lumber from Kimber?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 15:21

Mart or something.

Peter Ladner: 15:22

Are they being used for more utilitarian purposes?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 15:25

Absolutely. I can pull up the data now while we're talking. But, um, they are you being used for a variety of purchases, just like automobiles and just like conventional bicycles. Um, so in our, in our data here, uh, around 35 40% were being used for a commute trip of some kind going to work or school, whereas that was about 30, 35% for conventional bicycles. So actually a little bit higher utilitarian rate than conventional bicycles, and that's a large share.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 16:00

They're also being used for other types of utilitarian trips, like shopping and errands. It's about 10, 15%. They're being used as escort trips. So this is something that e-bikes really open up within the cycling world is pick up and drop off for children, and you'll see a much larger share of parents taking kids to school on an e-bike than you do on conventional bicycles, because it's just so much harder on a conventional bicycle. So electric bicycles enable actually more utilitarian trips than like exercise or leisure trips. Now, there are some exercise or leisure trips, but we actually see a smaller portion than for conventional bicycles. I do like to say, though, I feel like, especially transportation engineers like myself, we tend to focus too much on utilitarian travel and, you know, maybe that's just our kind of economic, kind of capitalist orientation. But you know, recreational exercise type trips are also a really important and perfectly valid use of the transportation system.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 17:15

So you know, we also want to get people out there on those types of trips. But yeah, e-bike trips e-bikes are being used quite a lot for utilitarian travel.

Peter Ladner: 17:25

We're not afraid to use the words joy and fun on this podcast. When you're justifying a political program, you say well, it brings joy and fun into people's lives. Sounds a bit flaky, I will say, but for those of us who do the rides, that's a really big deal. But let's get back to the numbers actually, if I could follow up on that speaking of the numbers.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 17:47

So we asked people about their experiences three months and 12 months after as compared to what they expected, about things like comfort, charging, parking, how often they use it, etc. And what's super interesting. I did not expect this, but in both the three month and 12 month follow-up in sanich and in the three month follow up in for the BC program, every one of those the number one thing that people cited as much better than they expected isikes are fun is actually has been a huge component of people's experience and their habit forming behavior, of their tendency to still be using it 12 months in. People really like riding e-bikes and that again is something we probably especially transportation engineers like myself we don't focus nearly as much on as we probably should.

Peter Ladner: 18:51

Were there any other surprises in your findings?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 18:55

I did not expect to see the level of retained mode shift at 12 months that we saw. I thought we'd see more of a novelty effect where they use it quite a bit for three months but then by 12 months in it was like a Peloton bike gathering dust or, you know, like a clothes hanger, clothes drying rack. That was not the case. It dropped off a little bit after 12 months, but really not much, and so this appears to have been a pretty sticky intervention in terms of long-term travel behavior shifts. I'll also add one more thing, which is that this isn't a whole lot of people abandoning automobile travel, a whole lot of people abandoning automobile travel. Pretty much everyone still had access to a car, who had it before and still used a car regularly. We're really just talking about shifting a portion of their trips, and that's really why the incentive program is nice, because it provides an option for people to shift their feasible trips which, aggregated over a lot of people, can really have an impact.

Peter Ladner: 20:11

And I would guess that what people consider feasible changes over time too, because I talked to somebody yesterday who said they used to just ride their bike on sunny days and they only ride home from work not to work because they get sweaty. And then they figured it all out and now they do it much more often for many more reasons.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 20:31

Absolutely. You learn the network too. What are the good routes? Where are the problem spots? How to avoid schools during pickup and drop-off period, and these little tricks that make a big difference in your overall experience, little tricks that make that make a big difference in your overall experience.

Peter Ladner: 20:51

but let's get back to the numbers. Did you or does that? Has anybody calculated the return on investment for these types of rebates? Because when you think about the savings on, let's just say, road maintenance, uh, the road repair evs, which are much more heavily subsidized and we could get into that, but I'll fight the urge to do that are typically much heavier than conventional vehicles and wear out the roads, and that is a direct cost. There's a mental health cost that are alleviated, one might assume, because of all the fun and joy costs that are alleviated, one might assume, because of all the fun and joy and also physical costs. People are getting outdoors and getting some movement, not to mention injuries and ICBC costs and everything. So have you done that calculation?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 21:39

So we did an economic evaluation just on the greenhouse gas dimension. So we calculated the cost per ton of CO2 reduced, assuming a 10-year lifespan of the e-bike and so on that regard, what we found is that it is cost competitive with other types of transportation interventions, but it is not cost competitive per ton CO2 reduced with kind of the international carbon market. So you know, compared to kind of forest type initiatives in other parts of the world, initiatives in other parts of the world. But the reason it's important to contextualize that is because part of climate justice is about not just finding the cheapest place in the world to reduce emissions or to offset your emissions, but to actually reduce your emissions that you're generating locally. And so when you look at that it is quite cost competitive. And we actually compared it with a fairly recent study of the electric car purchase incentive in BC and we found that it was cheaper in terms of CO2 reductions. It was better per dollar spent than the electric car incentives. And that is just looking at CO2. And so you're absolutely right If you start expanding that out to look at all the other potential benefits, right, most of the other things for e-bikes are on the plus side, whereas for electric cars, they're more on the minus side in terms of infrastructure, in terms of health, in terms of external safety risks and things like that.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 23:23

And so when people do a more comprehensive economic valuation of things like, especially including health effects, what typically happens is because physical activity is so important for health and because there's such systemically insufficient physical activity in Canada and North America right now that those physical activity benefits getting people out on a bike, even an e-bike are huge and tend to kind of dwarf all the other costs. So if we incorporated those they would be extremely cost-effective. That was a little bit outside of the scope of our work, but we did do some calculations and we found that overall there was a net increase in the transportation related physical activity that these people were getting. So, even though there was a little bit of a reduction in conventional bicycle use and walking, that increase in e-bike use more than offset it.

Peter Ladner: 24:25

Can you talk a little bit about equity? To what extent affordability is more and more an issue these days, and to what extent does the affordability of these bikes change people's lives and make them more accessible? We're getting a little bit more of that data on the provincial program.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 24:44

But we do see a fair bit of new trips, basically people going places they would not have gone otherwise, which is kind of what we're talking about in terms of not just reducing travel costs but increasing access, and that is a really important part of transportation equity. The provincial program analysis that we're doing, the study we're doing, is supported by a large national grant funded by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada called Mobilizing Justice. That looks at these broader issues of the way transport poverty, or people's inability to reach destinations given the resources that they have, really has long-term negative impacts on their economic life, on their health life and on their social life.

Peter Ladner: 25:39

When people talk about e-bikes, they sometimes say well, that's great for people who are fit. Of course, you don't have to be as fit as a regular bike, but you still have to be able to balance and so on. But what about e-trikes? And what about scooters? Are those part of the subsidy program? They are not.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 25:57

Well, actually an electric tricycle, I believe would be. I could be wrong about that, but I believe that still fits the definition of a motor-assisted cycle under the Motor Vehicle Act. So part of the issue here is we're constrained by a quite outdated Motor Vehicle Act in terms of what counts as a legal micromobility device, mobility device, um, and so we have the motor assisted cycle regulation, which I believe a tricycle um falls under, because they don't designate um. It could be two or three wheels, I believe and cargo bikes as well and cargo bikes as well.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 26:38

Yep, those are okay, um, but you know, electric scooters are not fully legal under the Motor Vehicle Act. There's just that pilot program. So there's only, you know, maybe a dozen municipalities around the province where they're actually legal. So those aren't part of the program. And, as you say, we did some analysis. We found 27 different types of devices and I believe more than half of them were currently not legal under the Motor Vehicle Act. And I believe more than half of them were currently not legal under the Motor Vehicle Act. And there isn't really a reason that they're illegal, other than that they are new and we haven't had a chance to incorporate them into transportation policy and governance yet. But you know, BC takes a fairly cautious approach which has pros and cons Overall it, you know. I think it leads to some better decision making in terms of when we bring in things like ride hailing and electric scooters. We can learn from a lot of lessons and mistakes that other cities and places have made, but it does mean that things are a little bit slower to come to BC.

Peter Ladner: 27:50

So, speaking of being slow, given what we know about the success of this program, can you now I'm going to just ask you, as a sort of a citizen, to speculate. Can you speculate on what political resistance there might be to expanding or continuing this program? Because we're now more than a year since it started. The website exploded when it was brought in. I was told by somebody that there's such a waiting list that if they brought in a new program at the same scope, there would be no room for new people, because all the lineup of people already waiting would take up the available money. But I'm puzzled why we haven't got it. Do you think now, here we are, in an era where the government's trying to pay more attention to the non-urban constituents? Do you think that there's political resistance of some kind to this that's preventing the government from going ahead with it? Are they waiting for your data, or what's the holdup? Why wouldn't we just do more of this?

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 28:49

Fair question and speaking as a BC citizen here certainly not a spokesperson for any government agency and I don't know in particular but these e-bike incentives are very effective and they address a lot of the stated priorities and goals and problems that BC has with the Clean BC program, with the Cycling BC policy and things like that. So they address equity, they address climate, they address affordability and public health. So they really do make a lot of sense and I think really the only argument against this is just in terms of the financial costs of the province and so Six million, that is not a lot of money.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 29:40

It is not a lot of money, but I do expect, especially given the outcome of the last election I would think that we'll see more coming. I don't know, but I would think we will see more coming, especially, as I said, because if you're looking at climate targets and things like that, and we're subsidizing electric cars, it's a no-brainer to subsidize electric bicycles.

Peter Ladner: 30:11

Well, alex, I'm pleased to be part of the ask, getting our little messages out into the millions of podcast listeners that we have and spreading the word, and I really look forward to hearing your final research. You've got your peer review paper coming out about the Sandwich results very shortly. We'll have the connection in the show notes and you'll have, I guess, more detail about the provincial program and maybe, hopefully, that will be the trigger for an expansion and continuation of that program and all these great results. So thank you so much for the work you've been doing and how it's helped policymakers get the courage to make these choices and I hope the rest of us can cheer them on appropriately.

Dr. Alex Bigazzi: 30:56

Yeah, my pleasure and thanks so much for having us on here. It's, you know, we do the work and then we put it out there and then we really rely on, you know, people like the BC cycling coalition to, um, you know, put it in, put it in front of people as much as possible. So, uh, thanks so much for that.

Peter Ladner: 31:18

You've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the BC cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At peterladner at bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member.

Saanich results and report: https://reactlab.civil.ubc.ca/saanich-ebike-incentives/

The study on micro mobility mode shares and speeds in cycling facilities: https://reactlab.civil.ubc.ca/human-electric-hybrid-vehicles/

An earlier report on e-bike incentives for Victoria in 2019 that led to the Saanich collaboration: https://civil-reactlab.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2021/01/Ebike-Incentive-Program-Development-Victoria_FinalReport_March-2019.pdf

What if one policy could make streets safer, communities stronger, and lives healthier? Dr. Michael Schwandt, Medical Health Officer for Vancouver Coastal Health, shares why a 30 km/h speed limit on BC's residential streets is a game-changer.

In this episode, we explore how lower speeds can significantly reduce traffic injuries and fatalities, create safer spaces for cyclists and pedestrians, and improve overall community well-being. We also tackle overlooked risks like right turns on red lights and highlight the collaboration needed between public health and local governments to make active transportation safer and more accessible.

Release date: December 01, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. The BC Cycling Coalition has been working for some time with a number of organizations aligned with us on a specific safety measure that we think would be very important in making our province safer for cyclists and pedestrians, and that is a 30 kilometer per hour default speed limit on residential streets throughout the province, that's, streets with no painted line on them. And to put this in perspective, we've invited on our podcast today Dr Michael Schwant, who's a medical health officer for Vancouver Coastal Health. He's also a clinical associate professor in the School of Population and Public Health at UBC and he knows a bit about this topic. Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 1:20

Hey, thanks for having me on.

Peter Ladner: 1:22

Michael, you are a cyclist, I assume. Do I assume?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 1:25

that, yeah, definitely, and I think that's yeah, it's. You know, I think one thing, because I moved about a little bit as a like many have lived in Vancouver and Toronto, and from Winnipeg originally. So biking in cities that are quite different cycling environments over the years, it really drives it home in terms of direct experience of what a difference maker it is, and you'll know this well, of course, but there's been. You know, when I was in Toronto I happened to live in a neighborhood that had a bike lane. I was in downtown Toronto with lots of traffic, but I didn't have to really interface with it too terribly much. I biked every day and it was easy, very easy.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 2:02

In winnipeg I lived probably closer to my the hospital I was working at, never biked because it was a harrowing experience, and being back there visiting, they've actually put a protective bike lane in exactly my previous route I would have biked every day. But the thing is, as you know, it's like I've been the same person roughly the whole time, been into biking the whole time, but that environment that creates that space or that opportunity has been the difference maker. So when I think of times in my life when I've been a daily biker, for pleasure, for commuting or times in my life when the bike's been collecting dust.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 2:37

It's really just due to basically the local cycling environment and those things that mostly local and also provincial government can do about it that make all the difference I've found so yeah, so I think that, yeah, you're correct, peter, I do enjoy biking and that that sort of impact living in different neighborhoods and different cities really every time you and now, as you know, like nowadays, it's like, yeah, I think improving slowly but as well, when travel, you see how good it can be, so there's always that opportunity. You want to keep striving for better.

Peter Ladner: 3:12

Maybe we'll fundraise to send Doug Ford to Amsterdam for a week and he can see how good it is. Oh my gosh, general aim in life, as I understand it, is to work on preventing disease, injury and problems health problems up front, rather than just spending all our energy on better hospitals and better emergency medical service and picking up people injured beside the road. Could you talk a little bit about that, about the importance of prevention, and where active transportation in general and a 30-kilometer speed limit in particular fit into that picture?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 3:52

That's exactly right, peter. As a public health physician, I work at the preventive side of things, looking at how we can protect and promote health and avoid some of the negative and costly health outcomes that could come down the road. So you'll know the old expression about an ounce of prevention, and this is really where we try to put our emphasis in public health programs and in my own role as a medical health officer in the community.

Peter Ladner: 4:17

But, michael, in my political experience a federal cabinet minister once told me the hardest budget to advocate for is prevention, because you get the money, you spend the money. You never have a tangible outcome necessarily. I mean, there are probably exceptions, but tell me how difficult it is for you to sell the concept of prevention and saving money up front against the pressures of doing all the necessary spending on hospitals at the back end.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 4:50

Well, it's an extremely major part of our practice because we see in the acute side of the healthcare system, quite rightfully, an emphasis on treating people's problems as they arise, making sure that people who are injured, for example, or suffering from the long-term consequences of chronic disease, are receiving appropriate medical care.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 5:10

And in the meantime we need to work upstream to try to prevent some of those outcomes from occurring in the first place.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 5:16

And it can be very hard from a preventive perspective to describe all of the negative health impacts that didn't happen because of our good work. So trying to make the case when, if things are going very well, we might not see any of those impacts, and trying to explain the issues that are averted rather than describing all of the, for example, patients that we've treated, all of the patients that we didn't need to, can be a harder case to make in many cases. So we really spend a lot of time working on our communications and our advocacy to emphasize the preventive part of the health care system. You know, depending how the arithmetic is done, usually people will quote numbers to say that public health is 3% to 5% of our health care spending in terms of that preventive side of things. So we do see an opportunity to do more on the preventive side and save those billion dollar budgets that come downstream of when we are unable to prevent negative health outcomes.

Peter Ladner: 6:12

But in the case of the 30 kilometer speed limit, I believe there is data that where municipalities have brought this in, there has been a reduction in fatalities and injuries to pedestrians and cyclists and other active transportation modes, and I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that, about the effectiveness of a very simple what seems to be a simple measure, on outcomes that can be measured.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 6:37

Absolutely the default 30 kilometer an hour speeds in residential areas or 30 kilometer an hour limits applied to specific areas have been increasingly studied and we've seen very positive outcomes right around the world. Certainly we've got examples from the US and from Europe and increasingly in Canada. Studies in Toronto and Edmonton have found decreases in both crashes and then also outcomes, including mortality, where these interventions have been studied, and I find that this is, you know, a really positive intervention because we often find, with public health, a lot of our preventive work you know vaccination programs and some of the work we do for clean drinking water or air quality, for example it's really invisible until it fails. If there's a problem with any of those things, then we know if we see illness and negative health outcomes, but we don't necessarily see the work going on.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 7:29

One of the things with these default speed changes is that people can really experience that right away. People in these communities describe not only just the data show less risk of injury, but people have a different experience of the communities when cars in a residential area are coming through at 30 kilometers an hour versus, say, 50 kilometers an hour plus which. Anyone who's been next to a residential street with a car moving through that quickly knows is a very tangible difference. So people's perception of safety and their experience of their neighborhood environment to cycle, to walk and to move about in really changes. So we actually have quite a visible impact on people's potential well-being and enjoyment of their community. Aside from that, longer-range impact on health too.

Peter Ladner: 8:20

But you must have been involved, as we are, with pushback from car drivers. From the point of view of someone driving a car, you do not want to be constrained. I mean, as a driver myself, I just want to go as fast as I can whenever I'm driving and everybody else get out of the way so I can get to where I want to go. From that point of view, having to slow down to 30 k's is a big frustration, and we have seen political parties cater to that driving mindset with great political success. However, as you point out, if you look at it from the point of view of people in the neighborhood, it's quite a different story, and some of those same people asked about in your neighborhood should cars slow down? In BC, a Mario Canseco survey found that two-thirds of the people throughout the province said they would like traffic to be slower in their neighborhood, and yet we still have this resistance from the provincial government to do it, because they say, well, municipalities can do it, we don't have to get involved.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 9:20

Yeah, there seems to be a real hesitation to move forward with some of these measures, even though, as you've described, researchers found that these are actually quite popular when surveyed. There are certainly interventions out there that public health recommends where we don't have a lot of public support and we could get into things like automated speed enforcement or even sometimes giving over space in the roads to protected cycling spaces, which can be very contentious, and we're seeing right across Canada a lot of debate around some of those interventions. Slower speeds is something where we actually find wind. Surveyed, many people, in fact the majority of people, actually promote that because we find that, as well as driving, most people do spend time walking about their own neighborhoods, and this focus on residential neighborhoods indeed does seem to be an area where we find more support than some of the other interventions for injury prevention and promotion of a safe act of transportation. And yet there is quite a major concern.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 10:20

We see this pushback, whether that's at the local government level or at the level of provincial governments who could potentially enact these defaults. I think there is a major worry that things that are perceived as slowing down traffic will be received negatively and the political courage or the vision hasn't always been there to enact these things has been modeled out by transportation engineers. Slowing down from 50 to 40 or 30 kilometers an hour for that very short part of a commute getting out of one's own neighborhood and onto major arterials is only a small part of the commute and doesn't really significantly slow down commuting times. Uh, in any case, it provides a safer and hopefully uh uh more positive driving experience and walking experience and cycling experience for neighborhood residents, without really contributing to slower commutes the way gridlock does, for example.

Peter Ladner: 11:12

Could you give us the specifics of the difference if a pedestrian is hit, say, by a car going at 50 kilometers an hour and 30 kilometers an hour?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 11:22

Definitely, when somebody is struck by a car traveling at 50 kilometers an hour, studies have found that the risk of fatality can be between 80 and 90 percent.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 11:31

That varies a little bit depending on the nature of the vehicle.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 11:34

We see that even increasing with car bloat, larger and heavier vehicles that are on the road, Whereas when people are struck by vehicles, when this has been studied, at 30 kilometers an hour, we see fatality rates more in the range of 10% or so. So potentially a five to tenfold increase in the risk of fatality occurs just within that interval. Moving up from a 30 kilometer an hour speed to a 50 kilometer an hour vehicular speed at the time of contact goes from basically describing the change from somebody being most likely the vast majority of the time to survive, potentially with some injury, unfortunately, to being more likely than not to die, to pass away due to due to the injury sustained. So within that difference, which makes a limited material impact to the, to the piloting of a vehicle through a neighborhood, we see a great difference in the risk to the piloting of a vehicle through a neighborhood, we see a great difference in the risk to a person being struck who might be walking, cycling or rolling in the neighborhood.

Peter Ladner: 12:35

Well, in fairness to the perspective that I've been sketching out here, there are more than 60 municipalities in BC that have some form of 30-kilometer speed limit, so this is not an unpopular opinion or move by municipalities, but our ask is that it's made default province-wide and then the municipalities don't have to put special signs up and pass special bylaws and incur costs. It's just the way it is. Michael, could you talk a little bit about other measures for safety for cyclists and pedestrians that you are pursuing that are high on your list?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 13:12

Definitely, within our regional health authority, we really try to take the Vision Zero approach, promoting a safer overall, a safer system for transportation, including looking at the roadways, the speeds, vehicles and the drivers that are moving them about, and as well as limiting speeds in residential areas. I think that the actual environment that people are moving about in, that helps to affect both the speed and the nature of travel, is extremely important. So we see, oftentimes when people describe that a lower speed limit isn't necessarily going to slow down traffic, and people will say, well, you can lower the speed limit on this roadway, but if it's built more or less like an airport runway, people are naturally enough going to speed through it. And we say, yes, absolutely, that's the case. And this is why it's an all of the above approach and we really try to encourage some of the well, well described and well applied uh engineering interventions that are available to uh to slow down traffic, to make drivers more aware of their speeds and to make it uh to essentially, you know, add friction, whether that's visually or physically. Uh that leads people driving more slowly. And this could be uh traffic calming measures that we're familiar with, that narrow roads, things that create less rounded and more squared off corners at intersections, anything that can slow people down and add to a more safe driving experience. This is both for drivers and then also for vulnerable road users who are on the roads on foot or on bikes and other devices.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 14:48

So this is another approach we take, really trying to work with local governments to promote these.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 14:53

So Vancouver Coastal Health, although we're a regional health authority providing acute care to over a million residents in our area, also provide funding to community-based organizations and even to some municipal governments to enact some of these measures to try to create safer spaces out in our transportation environment. I agree, peter, when we see so many different communities dozens now, as you said, over 60 that have implemented either slow zones or, in some cases, all of communities, slower cities, this is very positive, but we really need to, I think, socialize and promote the success of those projects. I think that in many cases it's not well understood that, indeed, one, there's positive impacts in terms of people's experiences of the roadways and two, some of the red herrings that we hear about the potential for negative impacts just don't come to pass. These are communities that end up being more inviting to people of all ages to use our street spaces, and it's, generally speaking, a positive experience when we're able to get feedback from residents of those communities.

Peter Ladner: 16:07

Michael, I want to switch gears, as they say, for a moment and talk about the other day. Somebody said to me they noticed I was riding my bicycle. They said oh how virtuous. And I said I am not trying to be virtuous, this is just fun and practical. I don't think that we can expect the nice changes that we all like and that many of us most of us would like to see, the people listening to this podcast would like to see. I don't think we can expect them to happen because people feel virtuous or want to do the right thing, even though it's awkward and uncomfortable or difficult for them. I think, and I think it's been proven and I'd love your thoughts on this that if you just build physical activity into day-to-day life in a way that makes it more efficient and practical for people to do it, they or do something to be virtuous and physically fit. They just worked into their daily life and thereby, therefore, they get healthier, just living, and we make that more able to happen.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 17:15

Well, we find that societies around the world that are healthier, where people live longer and have better health outcomes in terms of chronic disease, are exactly those that build physical activity, that build healthy living into day-to-day life. Without that requirement for day-to-day decision making. When we ask people to swim upstream and to go, you know, almost against the grain to make healthy decisions, we're really fighting a losing battle. I often say that we'd like to have a zero finger wagging approach to public health, so that people are taking on these healthy practices not because the doctor told them to do it or because I saw a TV commercial or a billboard saying it's a good idea, but because we've made the healthy choice, the easy choice, in the first place.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 17:59

So, if it's easier and more convenient and maybe even more fun to bike or to walk to work or to school than it is to get in a car and drive. People are more likely to do that and, you see, in societies where we have higher uptake of cycling, for example, it's in large part because it's been made positive, pleasant to do that, and sometimes as well because there's some friction to driving. Because we don't have necessarily a friction-free driving experience, there might be costs associated with it. Congestion charges in some communities globally have made a difference, and so changing that equation and that decision-making environment can be very helpful.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 18:38

Even where I work for Vancouver Coastal Health and the campus of Vancouver General Hospital, we see more and more work by our own health authority looking at our carbon emissions and trying to promote healthy practices among employees, trying to create better reception facilities for people who bike to work, because a lot of people say they don't mind biking at all. In fact they enjoy being on the bike, but it's arriving at work, finding a place to lock up that's safe, finding a place to change, coming into the patient care or first meeting of the day, having been off the bike and not had a place to shower, etc. That's the barrier. So again, I think that whether that's at the level of the city or town, or right down to the workplace or the neighborhood and housing. Design can all have an impact on people's decision making, at least as much so as simply being told it's the right thing to do.

Peter Ladner: 19:31

Great points. Have you got any thoughts about the effect of active transportation on mental health, which we're hearing so much about today, particularly with young people?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 19:42

Yes, there's more and more research on that. I think that the data the case has been in for some time on the impacts around chronic disease so whether that's blood pressure, prevention of heart disease and so forth, the studies have found that mental health impacts are very positive, whether that's walking or biking, and this could come through a variety of different pathways that have been postulated. So one, just that feeling of physical activity. Two, being outdoors. It's probably a cliche for a reason. It's a common experience, wind in the hair, as it were.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 20:24

People describe actually having fun when they bike, which is not a common description of driving through traffic or a lot of other modes of transportation. People look forward to that part of their days in many cases. Exposure to green spaces in many cases, depending on the nature of the route, there's that opportunity for being around green and blue spaces. Moving around trees or next to bodies of water can be very positive for mental health. There's lots of evidence to that effect. Then finally, social connection people describe being more amidst their community and their community members when they're at ground level, moving through, moving through neighborhoods on foot or on a bike, than they do when they're enclosed in a vehicle. So people have that opportunity to, at whatever the level is right for them to talk to or so much as nod to a neighbor, duck into a local store, and so forth. And so there does seem to be a very positive mental health impact on the use of active and sustainable transport as opposed to vehicular transportation.

Peter Ladner: 21:28

I noticed you mentioned drop into a local store because that, aside from the kind of community interaction that is involved in that, it's also a benefit for those stores. And, of course, the data is there that shows that if you have a bike route or more pedestrians outside your store, you'll have more business. Michael, do you have any thoughts about compulsory helmet laws? Are you a fan?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 21:54

This is a perennial question to your local public health official and right now, the position I would take is that in an ideal state, we wouldn't need to have compulsory helmet laws. And there are places, there are cycling networks and environments on Earth where I think that it's quite reasonable for people to bike without a helmet, and people are doing that in great numbers, relatively safely For the most part. Within our North American context, I'd say we're not there yet. In our North American context, I'd say we're not there yet, and so the presence of the use of bicycle helmets is, I would say, a good idea in the current environment that we have. So that's to say, in shorter terms, that when we don't have separation of bikes from cars, when we do have that need to move in and amongst vehicles, I would say, from a public health perspective, need to move in and amongst vehicles. I would say from a public health perspective, as the saying says, nine out of 10 public health physicians, if not more, are going to say you should probably wear a helmet when you're biking anywhere near vehicles, when that risk is there, and even sometimes in environments without vehicles, where there might be some risk.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 23:00

Now, in terms of actual laws and enforcement of those. I think that we need to be very mindful of the fact that these policies can promote use of cycling. It sends a message that this is a good practice and something that's advisable. We need to be very mindful that the enforcement isn't punitive in a way that discourages people from riding. So if somebody is interested in riding but they haven't managed to access a helmet, they, due to convenience or due to other barriers, don't have one on. We're not really doing anything positive in the longer run, with appropriate car seats for infants and young children, enforcement being not a matter of fining and punishment, but actually saying what's the barrier here and, in fact, providing people with uh, with the helmet in some jurisdictions. So we've seen some positive examples in canada of that.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 24:03

Say, if we're going to have a jurisdiction where we have mandatory helmet use and people aren't using it, what can we do to make that easier? What are the reasons that people might not? So is there the possibility of discounted use? But I would say, overall, we want to get to a place where helmet use doesn't need to be necessary. I think that the environments that we're trying to create are environments that are safe enough that, as we've seen in other jurisdictions around the world, that a person can bicycle essentially as comfortably as they can walk about. I mean, that's the end goal, but I think that for the most part we're not quite there yet and it's again. Would highly recommend, for the most part, using a helmet if you're biking about Vancouver, for example.

Peter Ladner: 24:45

I do feel compelled to note that it does send a signal that this is a dangerous undertaking and if you actually looked at the risk of head injuries, the people who are wearing helmets should be seniors walking across streets and passengers in the cars of people being driven by young men. But we don't enforce those and make those helmet issues but we leave that. We don't have to get into that.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 25:08

Uh, unless you had a comment on that yeah, you know, I do think that again, it gets back to this idea of you know, the status quo transportation that we need, that uh, we'll see, uh, policymakers creating and maintaining rules for cycling that aren't necessarily applied to to other modes of transportation, and I think that this is that's consistent. Unfortunately, we still see the language describing cycling as quote, alternate transport. This is something that's different than the norm, and that we have that sort of differential risk evaluation that you're describing and policies around it are not the same as what we apply to other modes of transportation, and I think that that's, you know, continuing to bring an evidence-based approach to policy and to communications on the topic is really important.

Peter Ladner: 25:56

Well, speaking of evidence, there's one more thing I want to ask you before we wrap up here Right turns on red. This is something that I understand was not the common policy in years past, but was brought in to move traffic along during the oil crisis of the 70s, and now there is, I gather, pretty strong data that shows these are very dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. Do you think we should not have right turns on red lights?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 26:29

Overall and I'll note first of all that depending on the city or town that you're in, context does matter, so I won't make this as a prescription for every community in British Columbia, but, again, overall, to give a simple answer, I'd say that, yes, we should be looking to limit this practice where possible. When we see evidence from other provinces, like Quebec, where, generally speaking, that's prohibited, these intersections become much safer. This is a very dangerous moment in our driving spaces and we see, as you described, this was largely put into place to allow people to roll through without needing to start and stop to save fuel. Then it might be good from that, might be useful from that perspective. I think less so in terms of modern technologies and the current state of our driving environment. It's probably less important from that perspective, but it's very uh in terms of the risk that's there, especially, as I mentioned earlier, when we see roadways with these, um, these turning areas, right, turning areas that are almost designed for speed. So, even where we see, um, red lights or stop signs, but we see these corners that are rounded off a lot, facilitating even encouraging uh, facilitating, even encouraging that continuous motion, failing to slow down, sight lines that don't really encourage or even allow people to have a sense of what they're driving into.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 27:55

It's very risky and I think that we would do well from an injury prevention perspective and from the perspective of promoting walking and cycling, creating environments where people feel and are safe to do so, limiting that in many places.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 28:09

You know, as you said, from right off the top. I think that some of the pushback that we see, we're always trying to look at what's the ideal state and then what's the pragmatic next step. I think that if we could at least look at certain high-risk intersections and start to intervene there, eliminating right turn on red and we do see this in some cases but trying to do this without wanting to become, as we're often accused of being in Canada, the land of the pilots starting to actually intervene, demonstrate where there is success, study these errors and then proliferate that practice, would be a very positive move. The opportunity is there. I don't think that necessarily it's going to be immediately accepted to go across the board to ban right turn on red, but to apply this more broadly, especially to known high-risk intersections where we even have risk, not only in general but specifically observed, with right turns on red. I think that we have an opportunity to intervene and again study, demonstrate the practice and expand it.

Peter Ladner: 29:13

Michael, given the close alignment between active transportation advocates and public health advocates, what would your advice be to people championing active transportation in the smaller communities around BC to partner up with their local public health authorities? Are there forums where you can do this? Are you willing or interested in joining in with active transportation advocates and helping campaigns or speaking to their members, or whatever it might take? How can we make your interests and our interests more closely aligned and working more closely together?

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 29:55

Oh, that's a strong yes, peter.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 29:57

I think that public health authorities right across the province are very interested to hear from community members and organizations on this topic.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 30:06

Speaking for Vancouver, we've had a very positive relationship with Vision Zero Vancouver, as well as Hub Cycling and other local organizations working on some of the topics we have discussed today, and I think that that's really crucial when we go to advocate for these healthy policies to local government decision makers and to provincial government decision makers.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 30:28

Oftentimes the health case, though we'd like to think as a health authority that that might carry the day Oftentimes it's some of the other benefits, the co -benefits of these policies that really seem to be influential. So, depending which city councillor you're speaking with, the language of health might be the most effective, but then oftentimes the benefits for local business that you described, for having a safe recycling environment, maybe the climate benefits or some of the improvements to air quality. There's different things and I find that the broad coalition of advocacy with people who are looking at the issue through different lenses could help oftentimes to be more successful in bringing out all of the different good reasons to pursue these policies rather than, for example, a local health official going in and saying do this because it'll limit injuries and take the load off of the emergency room. I would say yes, and you know, the local cycling organization, provincial organization like yours, might bring other cases that might resonate differently, and even more so, with decision makers and with the public who need to support these policies.

Peter Ladner: 31:45

Terrific advice to end on. Thank you so much, michael. It's been very helpful and I love to hear perspective from people who aren't always described as avid cyclists, who bring other interests and very important outcomes to this discussion. So thanks so much for joining us and I look forward to working with Vancouver Coastal Health and all of our members working with their local public health authorities to further these goals.

Dr. Michael Schwandt: 32:12

Really great talking with you, Peter. Thanks very much.

Peter Ladner: 32:19

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. An original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice. Thank you.

Tannis Braithwaite, retired lawyer and director with the Connect the Coast Society, shares her passionate advocacy for the Connect the Coast Trail — a visionary cycling project linking Vancouver Island, the Lower Mainland, and the Sunshine Coast along the Highway 101 corridor. 

Inspired by the success of Cycle 16's Smithers-to-Telkwa trail, we explore how provincial and federal support can bridge the funding gap for this ambitious project.

Release date: October 21, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Communities all over BC are excited by the possibility of cycle tourism on AAA routes suitable for all ages and abilities, and we've covered some of these on this podcast the Smithers to Telcoir route, tofino to Ucluelet, the Salish Sea Trail from Salt Spring Island around Couch and Valley into Souk, the Lake to Lake route in Penticton and the Okanagan Rail Trail.

Peter Ladner: 1:02

But maybe the grandmother of all these routes and dreams is the Connect the Coast Trail, because it's so close to Vancouver and all the possible people who could come from there and go north along Highway 101 past Sechelt and Roberts Creek all the way, potentially, to Powell River. All these trails have one thing in common, which is very strong local advocates, and one of the strongest of these advocates is Tannis Braithwaite, my guest today. She's a retired lawyer who is a director with the Connect the Coast Society, which is an offshoot of the Transportation Choices Sunshine Coast Organization, which has been championing cycling alternatives and options on the Sunshine Coast for, I'm going to say, decades. Tannis, welcome.

Tannis Braithwaite: 1:59

Thank you, it's good to be here.

Peter Ladner: 2:02

Could you tell us off the top what is your dream Like if all the plans came to fruition and all the funding suddenly, mysteriously and wondrously arrived? What would we see that you're promoting?

Tannis Braithwaite: 2:19

Well, we would see actually a long distance circular cycle route that would connect Vancouver Island, the lower mainland and the Sunshine Coast in a great big circular loop. Probably the worst section so far for cyclists is the Sunshine Coast. It's the Highway 101 corridor and, for people who aren't super familiar with the geography, you get to the Sunshine Coast you have to go by ferry. There's no road connection, but the Sunshine Coast is not an island. You take the ferry from Horseshoe Bay. It's a 40-minute ride over to Langdale and then Highway 101 runs about 160 kilometers north from there to a small town called Lund.

Peter Ladner: 3:10

You're planning on going all the way to Lund.

Tannis Braithwaite: 3:14

Yes, I mean the Connect. The Coast Society itself commissioned a report back in 2021. Back in 2021, we hired a transportation planner to take a look at the Highway 101 corridor and sort of assess the feasibility of building separated active transportation infrastructure along that route between the Langdale Ferry Terminal and the town of Sechelt Scheldt. After that report was published, Sunshine Coast Tourism was so excited about the project that they commissioned their own report that basically continued the assessment of the corridor from Sechelt all the way to Lund.

Peter Ladner: 3:57

And how feasible is it to build this route? What did the reports discover?

Tannis Braithwaite: 4:14

So the preliminary report is a very high level overview. Basically, the planner took a look at how wide is the right of way, how wide is the roadway, where are the power poles, where are the conflict points with driveways, all of that sort of information, and obviously it is possible to build a route the whole way, but it's not easy. There's places where the geography is very different, there's places where the right of way is too constrained, so there would have to be some private property acquisitions. It's always possible. It's just a matter of how much money you want to spend getting it done.

Peter Ladner: 4:46

Well, you did mention the priority on the first section between Langdale and Roberts Creek. Is that where you're focusing your energy now, and describe what that route would be like if I rode my bike off the ferry from Langdale?

Tannis Braithwaite: 5:02

Yeah, so one of the things that the preliminary design reports did was they did a multiple accounts evaluation which looked at things like what is the level of existing demand, what is population density in the area, what would be the cost of building that route, and so what that enabled us to do was to prioritize segments of the route for development. It's not feasible to try to do the whole route at once, or even the route from Langdale to Sechelt all at once. So the first priority section runs from upper Gibsons to the turnoff to Roberts Creek, so it would connect, basically, the town of Gibsons to a lower speed, lower traffic volume road that would lead to Roberts Creek.

Peter Ladner: 5:59

And you mentioned existing demand. What is the existing demand?

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:04

You mentioned existing demand. What is the existing demand? Well, on a sunny, long weekend day, we see up to about 500 cyclists a day using the highway corridor. That's obviously the peak demand. That's also at the busiest part of the route, which is just outside of the town of Gibsons.

Peter Ladner: 6:24

And are those people coming from somewhere else or are they local people?

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:30

You know it's hard to say. I think they're mostly local people. I actually frequently do counts on the highway, where I sit out on the highway for two hours at a stretch and I take notes about all the active transportation users who go by. What are they doing? Are they walking their dog? Are they riding their bikes?

Peter Ladner: 6:47

Just a second. You get out on a Sunday or a Saturday afternoon, you have nothing better to do than count cyclists going by on the highway.

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:55

That's right.

Peter Ladner: 6:56

Wow.

Tannis Braithwaite: 6:57

It's quite a life I lead.

Peter Ladner: 7:01

And.

Tannis Braithwaite: 7:02

Well, and I try to distinguish local cyclists from tourists, but, of course, the only way I can do that, because I don't stop people and ask them questions. Uh, if they're carrying a lot of gear they've got tents and sleeping bags they get counted as tourists. If they don't have a lot of stuff, they get counted as local people. So it's an inexact measure.

Peter Ladner: 7:23

But, tannis, this very act of yours to sit by the highway and count is very bizarre. When you think that if we were to treat cycling as a legitimate form of transportation, why is it up to some local activist in her spare time doing this research to get it done, doing this research to get it done when, if it involved cars, there would be all sorts of government agencies that would look after this and build it quickly? I mean, why are these type of routes not considered basic transportation infrastructure by the Ministry of Transportation Infrastructure?

Tannis Braithwaite: 8:02

Well, Peter, I think I'm the wrong one to ask that question to. I have no idea. I have no idea why.

Peter Ladner: 8:08

I'll bet you have some ideas, but share them with us.

Tannis Braithwaite: 8:13

Well, I have no idea why that's not being done. I mean, I know that it traffic. I mean the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure does. Do I mean the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure does do regular traffic volume counts? They have a permanent count station as well as a couple of count stations that I think they rove around. So there are count stations for motor vehicles but there aren't any for cyclists or pedestrians that I am aware of, but there aren't any for cyclists or pedestrians that I am aware of.

Peter Ladner: 8:46

So, aside from counting the cars on the highway, what has the ministry?

Tannis Braithwaite: 8:54

done to help you, if anything. Well, in terms of how we're dealing with the ministry, we're just at a sort of information sharing stage, I would call it so. The ministry's position is that they want to work through local governments on active transportation priorities, and so what we have done is we have a professional project manager. Actually, I would like to give a shout out to the BC Cycling Coalition who, when I reached out for help early on in this project, connected me to the Cycle 16 group up in Smithers, who have not only provided us with a tremendous amount of helpful information on how to go about this, but connected us with their project manager, who is now also our project manager. He's an engineer with WSP and he really knows what he's doing.

Peter Ladner: 9:50

Who is he?

Tannis Braithwaite: 9:51

With respect to these projects. His name is Alan Kindrat.

Peter Ladner: 9:56

So you've hired him, the local community activists have hired him. You pay him. Yes, we do.

Tannis Braithwaite: 10:02

You hired him, you pay him? Yes, we do, and he's put together a proposal for all of the things that we will need to have done for our first segment that we're looking at the Upper Gibsons to the turnoff to Roberts Creek that I mentioned and that involves a whole bunch of interconnected steps. You need to do environmental evaluations, archaeological evaluations, stakeholder engagement, topographical surveying and design work, and so we have been working with the local governments to fund that project and we've received some grant money as well to fund that project.

Peter Ladner: 10:52

So you mentioned that MOTI, the provincial ministry, wants to get some leadership from the local governments. How much have they? You mentioned they've given you some money. Are they behind this project or are they just sort of watching with some distant interest?

Tannis Braithwaite: 11:09

I think they're watching with distant interest. So if you look at the BC Active Transportation Design Guide, the only chapter in there that speaks to this active transportation infrastructure in the ministry right-of-way is Chapter F and essentially Chapter F puts responsibility for building and maintaining active transportation infrastructure even if it's going to be in the provincial right-of-way on local governments, and the ministries doesn't get actively involved, as I understand it, until the local processes are at the detailed design stage. So that's at least one or maybe two steps into the design process. You go through multiple phases of design before you actually have a design that's construction ready.

Peter Ladner: 12:13

How much would this cost the regional government if you were to bring it all to fruition? Do you have any ideas?

Tannis Braithwaite: 12:23

Well, I can give you a number and then I can tell you why that number doesn't mean very much.

Peter Ladner: 12:29

Okay, let's do that.

Tannis Braithwaite: 12:32

So the high level cost estimate for the Langdale to Sechelt section is about $100 million. Now the way that that estimate is made is that engineers have a standard per kilometer construction cost that they apply for, say, a multi-use path that comes in three levels. So they look at whether the terrain is easy to build, in medium difficulty or hard to build-in, and the per-kilometer cost. It's about $2 million for an easy area to build-in, $5 million per kilometer in a medium area and about $11 million a kilometer in difficult areas. Now, obviously there's difficult areas and then there's difficult areas. So on the Sunshine Coast, our first segment has at least three, possibly four, stream crossings. We may need major retaining walls, long bridges, and all of that interacts a lot with what the environmental and archaeological findings are, because there's more permitting and regulatory processes that you need to go through if you're interfering with streams, particularly if you've got fish bearing streams, which we do. So at this point it's very hard is what I'm saying to have any kind of accurate cost estimate.

Peter Ladner: 14:10

I can't help but comment that $100 million is the cost of about less than the cost of half a kilometer of Highway 1 widening in the latest expansion estimates. So given what we're spending on cars, this is an almost trivial amount. Now you mentioned the Tourism Association got excited about this project, and you mentioned some involvement from the regional government. What about the local First Nations? Are they?

Tannis Braithwaite: 14:49

involved? Yes, very much so. So our first segment that we're working on is in Squamish Nation territory and they have been very engaged. They're currently reviewing our environmental overview assessment and they will actively participate in the archaeological assessment, and they've been coming to stakeholder engagement meetings.

Peter Ladner: 15:12

Terrific. I once had a conversation with a board member from the BC Ferries who you would know who said that BC Ferries should be looking at the ways people come on the ferries and get off the ferries and if they could shift some of the ferry passengers from cars to bikes, they would effectively increase the capacity of the ferries with very little effort. How much are the BC ferries involved, if at all, in this project, given that it starts at a ferry terminal and, in the longer version, leads to another ferry terminal?

Tannis Braithwaite: 15:51

Well, that's a very good question. I mean, we have not actively engaged with them, with the BC Ferries at all on this project, but I think that's probably our failing. We should be engaging with them.

Peter Ladner: 16:05

Well, we'd like to do a podcast with the BC Ferries, engaging with them. Well, we'd like to do a podcast with the BC Ferries we're having a lot of difficulty getting somebody to come on just about things like their friendliness and wayfinding and so on towards cyclists on the ferries, which I would imagine would have to be built into this project at some level. So what have you learned, tanis, from all of these struggles and tests and studies, other than what section of the of the act is applied to what section of your project? But generally speaking, if you were to share some advice with other advocates in other parts of the province, what would it be?

Tannis Braithwaite: 16:42

well, I think one thing that I didn't fully understand when I started this process is, essentially, what we are trying to do is build a one lane highway, and we're trying to build it without any money, without any staff, without any expertise, on land that does not belong to us, so it is not an easy undertaking to us.

Peter Ladner: 17:09

So it is not an easy undertaking. Just stop there for a second. When you say you're building a one-lane highway, is that because of the width of it, and then there would be two-way traffic on it? That's right, you're not building one lane on one side and one on the other. Okay, so one lane.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:20

No, yep.

Peter Ladner: 17:20

Okay.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:21

But when you think about what goes into building a highway, what goes into building a highway, all of those same things go into building a bicycle path.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:33

It has to be built to a very high standard, and so you need professionals doing the work.

Tannis Braithwaite: 17:53

It's not possible for volunteers to actually do the work, and so that means using what influence you can muster to convince governments to help in ways that they can, and to convince governments to help in ways that they can, and we really try and look for ways to make it easy for governments. So as much of the work that we can do, we do do on behalf of whoever is involved, whether it's a local government or the ministry, to try to move the project forward, because the real problem, I think, is that government is largely overwhelmed with all of the issues that they have to deal with, and so and I think that's true of the local governments as well as the provincial governments and so active transportation never seems to make it to the top of the heap, so it just gets shoved aside and shoved aside, and shoved aside, because it's something that can wait for another day, and so we're trying to make it easier for governments to bring it to the top of the heap.

Peter Ladner: 18:53

Governments respond to public opinion. What's your estimate of the public opinion about this, and is it getting bigger or people are getting less interested?

Tannis Braithwaite: 19:10

bigger or people are getting less interested. Well, we have overwhelming support. On the Sunshine Coast is my sense. We do quite a bit of talking at community events and tabling at community events, and everyone that talks to us thinks it's a wonderful idea. The problem is not that people don't want it. People definitely do want it, but they want to have water infrastructure more than they want to have an at-bike path, they want garbage collection more than they want a bike path, and so I don't think it's a lack of support. It's a lack of prioritization for it, and I'm not sure how we make it people's priority over all of the other things that they have to deal with. Believe me, if I could think of a way I'd be doing that. Right now is a perfect time in the election campaign to be raising it as an issue.

Peter Ladner: 20:05

I would like to think that as GHG emissions become more of a concern, as affordability becomes more of a concern, equity people would be wanting more of what active transportation can offer. But obviously I understand, compared to having clean water when you need it, it's hard to compete with that. But do people ever talk about this during political campaigns?

Tannis Braithwaite: 20:35

Well, it's particularly, I think, a big issue on the Sunshine Coast, because the ministry is also looking at the possibility of building a new highway on the Sunshine Coast, also looking at the possibility of building a new highway on the Sunshine Coast, a four-lane, a new four-lane highway that would run essentially along what is now the power line, which is obviously a I don't know hundreds of millions, possibly billion-dollar project. No-transcript.

Peter Ladner: 21:29

It could actually be a real money saver. That's an interesting point. Is that a point that's widely shared, or is that still a bit of a reach too far for the average voter?

Tannis Braithwaite: 21:40

Well, I would say that it's probably about 50-50 in terms of the people who think that a new highway is needed and the people who think that it's not needed. I guess that we should be doing other things.

Peter Ladner: 21:54

This is the same argument that happens all over the province and we tend. Our go-to position on highway congestion is to build more capacity, which, as we know, is a mixed blessing it works for a while and then it doesn't. But I don't know that we've ever really fully explored all the other options better transit, other safe routes for other means of transportation, all the different new micromobility options coming in. All the different new micromobility options coming in. Does your society work with transit too?

Tannis Braithwaite: 22:36

thinking that getting people out of their cars also requires decent transit. Yeah, we have worked a little bit with BC Transit in terms of how the multi-use path would interact with bus stops, but a huge problem for transit on the Sunshine Coast is that it's very dangerous to cross the highway. The traffic volumes on the Sunshine Coast Highway are over 13,000 cars a day on average, and they're traveling at, you know, 80 or 90 kilometers an hour typically, and so you take your life in your hands to cross the highway. There's, you know, stretches of 10 kilometers just on the section between Gibsons and Sechelt where there's no controlled crossing and so people can't get to bus stops.

Peter Ladner: 23:25

Interesting. Well, tanis, if you were to look at the entire project let's just say the part from Roberts Creek to Gibson's what percentage of and the whole project project would take? Let's say 100, what percentage along that route are you now with these various studies and feasibility questions and negotiations and so on?

Tannis Braithwaite: 23:56

um, we're probably at about 10 completion. I would say, um, we're, we're working towards getting a conceptual design. After that there will be a whole series of engagement processes and then, hopefully, a detailed design, and then we start trying to raise money for construction, which is, things get more expensive as you go along the path.

Peter Ladner: 24:25

When you say we, you mean the local governments have to make that a priority for construction or MOTI or your society.

Tannis Braithwaite: 24:35

Well, it's definitely going to become a priority. It is the priority for our society to get this first section built, but you're not going to finance the construction of it, are you?

Tannis Braithwaite: 24:46

No, no, we're not. It's probably, it's probably going to be. The first section will cost, I would guess, more than $10 million, and so, no, I'm not going to pay for that. And local government, frankly, is not going to pay for it. Money will have because it's you know, Gibsons has a population of 5,000 people. They're not going to be able to come up with $10 million to build this infrastructure. So we'll need to have participation from senior levels of government and hopefully that will be both the provincial and federal governments.

Peter Ladner: 25:25

All in all, it's not very encouraging, I must say, but the dream is so big and wonderful that I can't. I'm sure that's why you can't let it go.

Tannis Braithwaite: 25:36

Well, honestly, I'm not sure that it is that unrealistic, like when you look at what cycle 16 has accomplished. This is exactly the path that we are on has accomplished. This is exactly the path that we are on, but it's actually moving probably 10 times the speed of what cycle 16 was able to move at. I mean, they worked for years to get any traction and I mean I think we've already got a fair amount of traction and the provincial ministry has stepped in and taken responsibility for the path up there and we're very hopeful that they will do the same thing for the path on the Sunshine Coast once we get far enough along in the process.

Peter Ladner: 26:16

That's great to hear. I love the precedent of Cycle 16 and it would be so great if that became a precedent for all these projects like yours.

Tannis Braithwaite: 26:26

Yeah, I mean that was a new thing in the provincial budget last year. I think it was $150 million that was allocated for the ministry to spend on active transportation infrastructure in highway right-of-ways. So historically the ministry has funded grants for local governments to build things, but they haven't actually had their own pot of money to build things in the right of ways. And now they do. And that's only a year old, that program.

Peter Ladner: 26:57

Oh, I didn't fully understand that. That's a very good point.

Tannis Braithwaite: 27:00

Yeah, and that's where Cycle 16's money came from to complete that project.

Peter Ladner: 27:07

Well, tanis, all I can suggest, as a keen observer and someone who would love to see this implemented, is to keep that old maxim in mind sell the beach, not the flight. You keep fanning the embers of the vision of this. As you say, when people hear about it, they get very excited and I think if we can keep the focus on that rather than, oh, all the costs and barriers and problems and things to get there, that's what's going to take, and hopefully it will also engender some shift in thinking from the ministry that these things are add-ons and nice to haves rather than basic elements of proper infrastructure for transportation.

Tannis Braithwaite: 27:53

Yeah, I would say I have a sense that things are starting to shift at the ministry. I think historically they've been very focused on regional movement through traffic basically, and not very focused on the needs of local communities, and I think that is starting to shift and when that shift happens, I think we'll definitely see more focus on active transportation infrastructure.

Peter Ladner: 28:21

Well, that's great to hear, because in your case, as in many, many communities around BC, the highway is effectively the main street of the town and without the involvement of MOTI, you can't really deal with these issues. Tannis, thank you so much. Is there anything more you want to say? Parting words of wisdom or anything?

Tannis Braithwaite: 28:40

Just best of luck to all of the groups out there that are trying to make this happen, and thanks to all the local governments who are supporting that, and I hope soon that I'll be thanking the provincial and federal governments for also supporting it.

Peter Ladner: 28:54

As do we. Thanks so much, Tanis.

Tannis Braithwaite: 28:57

Thanks, Peter.

Peter Ladner: 29:06

You've been listening to bike sense, an original podcast from the bc cycling coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

Explore Connect the Coast's vision HERE.

Hear the inspiration for Connect the Coast on Bike Sense's very first episode back in April 2023: From Smithers to Telkwa with Allan Cormier.

Subha Ramanathan, Manager of Programs and Partnerships for the Share the Road Cycling Coalition in Ontario, explains Ontario's transformative Bike Friendly Community Awards – touching on how municipalities achieve scores (The Five 'E's), how the awards boost active transportation and healthy, place-based competition among the contestants. Peter explores how we might bring this program to BC.

Release date: September 25, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. We've got a great podcast for you today and at the end we're introducing something new and special. Stick around for Peter's rant.

Peter Ladner: 0:39

We are very lucky to have on our podcast today Subha Ramanathan, who is the manager of programs and partnerships for the Share the Road Cycling Coalition in Ontario, and the reason that we're talking to her is that her organization oversees an amazing program called Bike Friendly Communities, which is something that started in the US butS but has been adopted around Ontario and, interestingly, there's even a BC community involved. Subha, welcome to the program. Thanks, peter. Glad to be here. Just before we get into the bike-friendly communities. I'm going to be asking you what difference it makes and exactly how it works and how these communities enjoy and show off their credentials that they get from your organization. But I noticed you have a background in public health and you've done some work out at UBC with the UBC researchers. Tell us a bit about that.

Subha Ramanathan: 1:39

Yeah, so I actually did my master's at UBC in exercise psychology and then, when I came to do my PhD in public health, I started to look at how built environments affected the way that people are physically active.

Subha Ramanathan: 1:58

Physical activity has always been a keen interest of mine and I started to think about what we could do to encourage populations to be physically active. Where you don't have to think about being active, you're kind of tricked into doing it with your lifestyle and researchers that I ended up working with Drs Guy Faulkner, who then moved to UBC. He started to create this program that focused on children and their physical activity levels and the ways that they got to and from school using active transportation and that, of course, encompassed walking, cycling and other forms of wheeling. And we started to look at what it is that motivates people to choose active forms of wheeling. And we started to look at what it is that motivates people to choose active forms of transportation, and it turns out that connections to nature and socializing with other people on the walk to school these are all integral components of being active without realizing that you're being active. And so that was my connection to UBC and my introduction into active transportation that then led me to the Share the Road Cycling Coalition.

Peter Ladner: 3:16

I love that. What else do you do to be active? I presume you cycle.

Subha Ramanathan: 3:21

Yes, I cycle, but I also really enjoy over the last few years Zoom classes. I take quite a few fitness classes online. I garden, I have a wonderful property and vegetables and I've been spending my time canning over the last few days. I try to integrate physical activity into my day-to-day happenings so that I don't necessarily have to dedicate time for exercise.

Peter Ladner: 3:53

I love that. And well, that leads us, of course, to bike-friendly communities, because when your community is bike-friendly, I guess it just follows that people are more inclined to, and more likely to, cycle as a way of just getting around, without being avid cyclists in Lycra with square jaws and long training regiments on the weekends. So, subha, tell me there's an interesting backstory, before we finally get into the topic at hand about the Share the Road Cycling Coalition, about how it started, and perhaps you can sketch that out quickly, but also tell us what Greg's Law is.

Subha Ramanathan: 4:37

Okay, so Share the Road Cycling Coalition was founded by Eleanor McMahon, whose husband, Greg, was an officer in the Ontario Provincial Police and he was tragically killed in a training accident when he was cycling on the roads and he was struck by a truck. And it turned out that the driver of this truck had a few violations, but the penalties for these violations were not as severe as they could have been. And so it turns out if we had more stringent laws in place, then this accident could have been prevented. In place, then this accident could have been prevented. And so Greg's law captures the spirit of that, and Eleanor had gone through several means of advocating for more stringent penalties for violations driver violations so that this is drunk driving you're talking about.

Subha Ramanathan: 5:47

It wasn't drunk driving, I think. There were a few speeding violations and careless driving violations, and so now there are more stringent penalties if there are violations in place.

Peter Ladner: 6:02

Well, let's move on to Thank you. That's a tragic but fascinating story and somewhat relevant with the recent deaths of Johnny Goudreau and his brother, the hockey players hit by a drunken driver while they were out cycling and killed. Thank you, bike-friendly communities. Ranks communities according to their cycling infrastructure. That's my rough take of it, but you now have how many communities in Ontario involved in this and what do they have to do and what happens when they get involved?

Subha Ramanathan: 6:38

We have 52 communities in Ontario involved in the Bicycle Friendly Communities Program, and it isn't just infrastructure. We talk about the five E's that need to be in place in order to show that you are bicycle friendly, and that includes engineering. So that's the infrastructure you mentioned. But then there also needs to be educational programs in place, and that includes cycling skills training for all ages, knowledge of the rules of the road, encouragement that includes signature events, maps for cyclists, programs and services available for cyclists, evaluation and planning. So the committees that are in place looking at active transportation in your municipality, funding mechanisms and the stability of those funding mechanisms and how your cycling infrastructure is being monitored, usage monitored and roadways being built. And then, finally, the newest E that was added last year by the League of American Bicyclists is equity and accessibility. So what efforts are you taking as a community to reach new audiences to foster cycling?

Peter Ladner: 8:00

I love that this methodology was worked out over the years by this Washington DC-based organization and it's now used, I believe, in the states of Washington and Oregon and elsewhere in the US, well, right across the US, and that nobody has to invent anything here. You just have to plug and play. But it's not that easy. It looks to me to get involved. But it's not that easy, it looks to me, to get involved If you are a community and you think, oh, I'd like to get. Well, what can you get? First of all, you get designated. What are the designations?

Subha Ramanathan: 8:32

There are designations from bronze through to platinum. We don't yet have a platinum municipality in Ontario or in Canada, but there are five municipalities in the US that have reached this platinum achievement. Engaged staff, more people on the road cycling, more programs available, more efforts to make cycling a viable transportation option, so not just a recreational option, as you mentioned the folks in the Lycra that are on their bikes, but also the people who just need to get to the corner store, and they have the option to do so by bike.

Peter Ladner: 9:22

So what happens when a municipality goes into this program and say they get a gold standard? I understand they get a highway sign. They can put up your when you approach the highway, the town, by vehicle, I guess, of any kind. But what does it do to the people in the community? Do they get excited about it? Do they compete and get worried if they don't measure up to their neighboring community?

Subha Ramanathan: 9:51

Absolutely. Municipalities are quite invested in this process. It takes quite a long time to gather the data that goes into the application form, and successes are celebrated. There's often a press release with the presence of the mayor. Some municipalities will organize a ride that the mayor takes part in, which really shows support all the way to the top of the government structures. And so communities want to brag and say, hey, we are a bronze community or a silver community or a gold community, and every rank achieves a road sign. So you don't have to simply be a gold community. Even bronze communities will receive one road sign from the Share the Road Cycling Coalition and the option to purchase additional signs to display all around to all the entrances into the municipality.

Peter Ladner: 10:46

Now I notice there's almost like a participation ribbon here you can get an honorable mention, and there was one municipality in BC that was on your list Port Alberni got an honorable mention. How did they get involved, do you know?

Subha Ramanathan: 11:01

A few years ago, we thought of expanding our bicycle-friendly communities program across Canada, and we wanted to see how the standards might follow in municipalities that have slightly different laws than we do in Ontario and slightly different considerations political structures and so the program was available for anyone to apply.

Subha Ramanathan: 11:31

Though we didn't necessarily reach out to local organizations to share information about the BFC program, we did make the program available across Canada, and Port Alberni had applied, and they had many of the building blocks in place. They had a team of staff members dedicated to active transportation. They had some data collection being synthesized on a regular basis. I think what we had noticed is that there were certain aspects, like the educational programs, that could use a little bit more strengthening and more stable funding mechanisms in place, and so we provided them with a feedback report highlighting some of their strengths and showing the ways that they can build towards becoming a bronze municipality, and so that's another benefit of being in the program that you get feedback. You're not just filling out an application, you also have a team of experts that are going to.

Peter Ladner: 12:48

I love that feedback thing. It's almost like a consulting service. Now, what if there were another community in BC that wanted to do this? Are you open to spreading this around the country or, do you like in Quebec? Do you expect the provinces to each have their own initiatives?

Subha Ramanathan: 13:14

initiatives. Well, I think for now we are. We're certainly open. We just created a new application form that is identical to what they have distributed in the US. In the past we had adapted versions for Ontario, but in the most recent version that was released, the 2024 application, it's now identical to what they are issuing in the US, and so we do have the ability to have Ontario or Share the Road oversee the program for all of Canada. We're trying to ramp up our internal resources to be able to do that, but I do think that, as time is going on and there are technologies in place that can assist us in administering a program widely with limited resources, I think that Share the Road will soon be in a position to oversee work across Canada.

Peter Ladner: 14:13

So if a British Columbia municipality wanted to get involved, they could just go to your website, download the form and do the work Absolutely.

Subha Ramanathan: 14:21

Is that?

Peter Ladner: 14:21

correct and then they would get. Would they get the highway sign and the certificate on the press release and all of that?

Subha Ramanathan: 14:27

Yes, feedback Okay the whole shebang yes. Feedback, the whole shebang. Anybody who applies has access to the feedback report from the expert judges. One highway sign, a digital award icon that can be put on their websites or shared through social media and, if they would like to, they also receive a discounted registration to come and attend our Ontario Bike Summit that we run every year.

Peter Ladner: 14:55

Well, maybe we could work a deal for them to attend a BC. We did our own Active Transportation Summit recently and we'll no doubt do that again. But that's wonderful to hear that. I'm impressed and surprised that we could be getting involved. But it's not that easy right. How long does it take? I mean, you mentioned some of the pieces that were in place in Port Alberni, but you've got to get a task force together and the municipal staff on board. Could you just run us through what it would take for a municipality to do this? Sure To apply.

Subha Ramanathan: 15:31

Absolutely.

Subha Ramanathan: 15:31

It does take a bit of time to fill out the application.

Subha Ramanathan: 15:35

As I mentioned, there are five distinct areas that we're looking into, ranging from engineering all the way to equity and accessibility, and it's very unlikely that a single municipal staff person has the knowledge across those five areas, and so you really do need to get together the folks from engineering, the folks who are doing the educational programs, student transportation services.

Subha Ramanathan: 16:01

There's a wide range of departments that need to talk to each other about bicycle friendliness and what they're doing to move towards higher standards of bicycle friendliness and what they're doing to move towards higher standards of accessibility of the neighborhoods, and so we want those teams to get together and discuss what they're doing, share data about what they're doing and fill out this application form, and in most cases, it takes several months I would say three to four months to give justice to the application form and give justice to all the work that you're doing, capture all the work that you're doing in a single spot, and I think that this exercise is actually one of the most important parts of becoming bicycle friendly gathering everything in one area, celebrating your achievements in one spot and having that as your roadmap for the future.

Peter Ladner: 16:58

That makes a lot of sense. Could you tell us about some specific projects that have, say, moved a city or community up from one level to the next city or community up from one level to the next? I'll give you a clue. I read on your website that Ottawa moved up to a gold level One of three communities. Is it Ottawa, toronto? And who's the other one that's the gold one in Ontario?

Subha Ramanathan: 17:25

Waterloo.

Peter Ladner: 17:27

And Waterloo. But Ottawa did they do car-free Sundays in their parkways and they made that every weekend from May to October. Is that, are they still doing that?

Subha Ramanathan: 17:37

Is that a factor in their I'm not sure if they are still doing that. I think over the last few years a lot of these programs have been put on hold. Their gold designation was achieved prior to the pandemic and unfortunately, a lot of these public programs had to be pulled on hold because of resource constraints. But I will say that having achievements like a Car Free Sunday, where you're able to like a Car Free Sunday, where you're able to designate public space for cyclists and pedestrians and people on alternate forms of wheels, it really does show the municipal support and also the public support for having this, because we know that it's not just about municipal staff putting together events. People need to show up for the events. There needs to be support on both sides, and so a gold community is distinct from a silver and a bronze by having high levels of public support for cycling and walking and wheeling, for cycling and walking and wheeling.

Peter Ladner: 18:53

I noticed that in the American one they also have a platinum and a diamond level and you mentioned that there were was it seven or something high ranking cities in the States. Can you name some of those? Just maybe we want to go visit them.

Subha Ramanathan: 19:07

Yes, so there's Madison, wisconsin. That's the one that always pops into my head first. I'm trying to think of the other ones. I don't have the US information in my head.

Peter Ladner: 19:20

Is Eugene Oregon one of them.

Subha Ramanathan: 19:22

There are some in Oregon.

Peter Ladner: 19:27

Bend maybe.

Subha Ramanathan: 19:27

Anyway, we can look that up.

Peter Ladner: 19:28

We can look that up. Speaking of looking things up, I know that the American Bike League puts out a book called their Idea Book which has case studies from all these cities and an interactive map. You can go in and poke around and kind of get a feel for the situation and anybody can look that up at bikeleagueorg slash BFC Idea Book, that's Bike-Friendly Community Idea Book. So bikeleagueorg slash BFC Idea Book. And now going back to the Canadian program, your next intake is very soon, I believe.

Subha Ramanathan: 20:11

Yes, our next deadline is October 11th 2024.

Peter Ladner: 20:17

So if a community in BC wanted to get involved, that gives a lot of lead time for the next one after that would be October 2025?.

Subha Ramanathan: 20:26

Yes, we're moving to once a year in October once a year in October.

Peter Ladner: 20:36

So let me plant the seed to my millions of podcast listeners that if your community wants to do this, now would be a good time to start thinking about it. Go and look into some of these sources, download the application form it has a frequently asked questions section in there and take a run at a chance at a really nice highway sign that calls you some kind of bronze, silver or gold community and boasting rights. Having been in municipal government, I have to say, to go back to the comparison thing, that yes, there's the celebration aspect, but there's also the bit of a shame slash competitive catch-up thing where, hey, that neighboring community got a bronze or gold, we only got a silver. What do we have to do to catch up? Keep up, and I kind of like that because it is a motivating factor and anything that motivates people to do more of this is, in my mind, a good thing. Subha, I'm kind of done with questions. Is there anything you want to add that you think the listeners in BC should know?

Subha Ramanathan: 21:37

I do think that, ultimately, we're all trying to work towards creating more livable communities and by looking at bicycle friendliness, it also makes it more friendly for people with various mobility challenges. It makes it more friendly for new parents with strollers. There's many different types of people that benefit from more livable communities, more active built environments, creating our municipalities and roadways. That helps us to get outside and meet one another. There are just so many benefits to becoming more bicycle friendly that I I almost think that in the future it might be renamed as active transportation communities or something Happy cities.

Subha Ramanathan: 22:33

Happy cities, yes, livable cities.

Peter Ladner: 22:37

We could package that little, those last few comments of yours, and use them at the end of every one of our podcasts, because, as we all know, what we're trying to do is a big, happy thing that everybody wins if we get it right. So thank you so much for your work and sharing that information with us so that maybe we can benefit from some of these programs here in British Columbia. Thanks, subha.

Subha Ramanathan: 23:01

Thank you.

Peter Ladner: 23:05

I wanted to share a very short rant with my producer, Carmen Mills. Carmen, I'm going to ask you do you get bothered by, or notice how many cyclists ride around at night with no lights?

Carmen Mills: 23:19

Well, I might be one of them, so I try to be gentle.

Carmen Mills: 23:23

Well, I might be one of them, so I try to be gentle.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

The other day I was cycling around the waterfront bikeway in Vancouver and half at least of the cyclists approaching us had no lights. Some of these places were unlighted. It was dangerous for me and I can't figure out. Do these people drive their cars around at night with no lights on? Would they even think of that? And just to say that, when I'm riding at night with a good light front and back, I feel way safer than riding in the daytime, because it's really clear that I'm there and I'm really visible. So, cyclists, a light is your safety weapon. Use it and don't put other cyclists at jeopardy by riding around with no lights, thinking you're cool and you don't need to bother.

Carmen Mills: 24:10

Yeah, and I would say actually, if you want to go minimal on that, my personal feeling is the rear light is even more important than the front. It's best to have both, but cyclists are more often rear-ended. So get a red flasher, a cheap one, even wire it onto the back of the bike so you don't have to worry about it being stolen, and that helps quite a lot.

Peter Ladner: 24:31

Oh, one more thing Riding with a light during the day reduces your chance of having an accident by I believe it's 50%. So get a good light, have it on all the time. And if you're lucky enough to have an e-bike, get it hooked up so the light's on every time you start it up. And finally, I have figured out something to say. I get so angry and I don't want to offend people, so I don't want to say get a bike light. I just say lights are good as I'm passing, so lights are good. People, don't forget that You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you liked the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

To learn about the Share the Road Cycling Coalition and Bike Friendly Communities visit sharetheroad.ca. To find out more about US cities and their bike-friendly projects, go to bikeleague.org/bfcideabook

An eye-opening conversation with Steve New, board member of Island Pathways and former Chief Operating Officer of BC Transit.

We explore the ambitious vision of completing the 180-kilometre Salish Sea Trail loop on Salt Spring Island's narrow roads, and dive into the role of BC Transit in enabling active transportation across B.C.

Release date: July 29, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:07

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Steve New. He's a resident of Salt Spring Island and I've invited him to come on the podcast for two reasons. One is Salt Spring Island has a very interesting and long-standing organization that is championing a specific route that would have major cycle tourism implications. And secondly, he's the former chief operating officer of BC Transit and I thought he might have some things to say about how bus transit and other forms of transit organized by BC Transit might have an impact on active transportation. So welcome, steve.

Steve New: 1:03

Thanks, peter, I'm glad to be here active transportation.

Peter Ladner: 1:06

So welcome Steve. Thanks Peter, I'm glad to be here. Tell us what is your role on Island Pathways? What is Island Pathways?

Steve New: 1:12

and what are they trying to do? First, I'm a part-time resident of Salt Spring Island, but I serve on the board of directors of Island Pathways, which is an organization that's been active for almost 40 years in advocacy, planning, design and construction of walkways on Salt Spring Island and benches and mapping for walking and cycling and in the last two or three years, has become very active in developing safe, all ages and abilities cycling infrastructure on the island and how's that going?

Peter Ladner: 1:52

I, I was on salt spring island. I don't recall seeing bike lanes. Am I missing something, or were they somewhere?

Steve New: 1:58

else. No, you're quite right. Of the 265 kilometers of roads on salt Spring Island, there's currently one kilometer of segregated cycle path on Upper Ganges Road, but we were very ambitious and we expect that there will be at least another 19 more kilometers if we're successful in completing the missing link of the Salish Sea Trail.

Peter Ladner: 2:29

I really like that image and I'm going to get you to tell us what that is in a second. But I just want to recall an incident in Vancouver or a situation in Vancouver where we had a stretch of the missing link in the seawall around Vancouver along Point Grey Road and that was a big selling feature for taking cars through traffic off that road. So the big picture can work in selling an improvement in active transportation. So tell us about the big picture. What is the Sailor C Trail?

Steve New: 2:58

Yeah, the big picture is that it's a trail of some 180 kilometers. It's a loop that would connect the Cowichan Valley, the Victoria area of the Capital Regional District, as well as Salt Spring Island, and it connects existing segregated and on-road cycle routes in those other regions. And we're hoping that Salt Springs 20 kilometers between Fulford Harbor to the town of Ganges and then on to Vesuvius those two endpoints, with ferry terminals, would be a perfect addition to create a recreational cycling tourism and a place where active transportation users, including walkers and those on bikes, can safely traverse the island.

Peter Ladner: 3:57

Steve, I just want to stop for a moment. You and I are both cyclists. You know that cyclists love to nerd out on their routes that they take, so you haven't told me enough. I'm going to go. Let's say I start in Vesuvius. Then where do I go? I take the ferry over to what's the place? Chimenas.

Steve New: 4:15

Yeah, from Vesuvius you take a ferry to Crofton and from Crofton you'd cycle on some very generous road shoulders through to North Cowichan and Duncan.

Steve New: 4:26

And then get onto the Cowichan Valley Trail which loops out to the Cowichan Lake, back on the trail through the provincial lands back to Duncan provincial lands back to Duncan and then over towards the Malahat along the Cowichan Valley Trail over the Souk Hills Wilderness Trail, connect to the Galloping Goose into Victoria and then Victoria out on the Lockside Trail back to Swartz Bay and then over to Fulford and then into Ganges oh.

Peter Ladner: 5:01

I like that and on to Vesuvius.

Steve New: 5:03

that's where you're staying. Fantastic, and how long is that? That is a 180, roughly kilometer trail.

Peter Ladner: 5:13

So that would be a multi-day trip for most people.

Steve New: 5:15

Yes, it would, and the users could take any part of it. What it does on Salt Spring is it eliminates the narrow in some cases no shoulders in some cases no shoulders in others on roads that are posted at 80 kilometers per hour and make it very uncomfortable for many riders, whether they're advanced or beginners.

Peter Ladner: 5:47

Is this route so enticing that people are doing it anyway now but having problems on that particular stretch?

Steve New: 5:56

Yeah, that's right, they're doing that. Now there is an alternate route that is still quite hilly and with very few, a little less, traffic, but with no shoulders as well, and we're hoping that with that those wider shoulders, that not only residents but also visitors to Salt Spring Island will find it an even more attractive place to visit.

Peter Ladner: 6:24

So let's cut to the chase. How much money do you need and what are your chances of getting?

Steve New: 6:28

it. Well, it's hard to pin an exact figure on that. There's some work that Island Pathways had initiated, and then our partner, the Capital Regional District, that has designated this corridor from Fulford Harbour to Vesuvius as a regional trail. They've now assumed responsibility for a contract to prepare preliminary design and drawings for this route. Based on that, we'll be able to make a more educated guess about what it'll take to complete it.

Peter Ladner: 7:09

So does that mean the citizens of Salt Spring are now relegated to sort of a cheerleader role and monitoring and encouraging and making sure it happens, and not having to pay for it or do the rest of the work Well?

Steve New: 7:20

there's a lot of cheerleading. The records show that there's been 50 years of cheerleading, 50 years of asking for wider shoulders, and we feel that, with the quite complex world arrangement of responsibilities for various works on Salt Spring, that the regional director, a small group called the Local Community Commission, will be able to get on board and determine the priorities for that and then get on with the work. That's not to say and then get on with the work, that's not to say that nothing has been done. For example, just last week, tenders on 1.6 kilometers of one of the toughest sections of this route closed, and that's what's called the Ganges Hill, the hill just south of Ganges, and so seeing that work completed will give a great, a big boost to future work.

Peter Ladner: 8:33

Well, I think you may have heard that at our recent Active Transportation Summit in New Westminster, the Minister Fleming announced the funding for Cycle 16 in Smithers, from Smithers to Telco. I believe it was in the order of $10 million to finish that off, and so I think you should go to the Ministry of Transportation and say that they've now set a precedent for per capita spending on active transportation routes and you're ready to go, presuming those drawings have been done, will you be relying on the Ministry for funding? Funding, or will the regional district raise taxes, or how does that work?

Steve New: 9:08

Yeah, in our case there'll be a partnership arrangement for funding. I'm sure I don't know how it will work out in particular, but typically there'll be perhaps some federal active transportation dollars, certainly the ministry, and there may be some local dollars as well. The minister is someone who knows about Salt Spring event a little over a year ago and was kind enough to cycle along parts of this route. The Minister of Tourism, lana Popham, was on the island just three weeks ago that would be in June. In June looking at the cycling tourism potential and we were able to show her and some of her staff the potential for cycling tourism on the island that with some enhancements in the infrastructure that we can further improve the tourism and the economy on Salt Spring.

Peter Ladner: 10:26

One of the things that I love about cycle tourism is that, from a political point of view, it brings in unlikely supporters for active transportation, such as the chambers of commerce, the tourism hotel and whatever operators bike rental people, business people and I love that. It expands the reach of support that way and hopefully will help generate enough political support to get these projects through. So your vision. I love the Sailor Sea Trail. I've done sections of that. I would love to do the whole thing sections of that.

Steve New: 11:05

I would love to do the whole thing. Yeah, we were very pleased to have other speakers on this day of activities with Minister Popham, and one person, Colleen MacDonald, who is the author of books on cycling, talks about the New Zealand experience, which is very positive and this is a paraphrase, but millions in investment in cycling infrastructure in New Zealand have produced billions in revenue for the economy. You know, we hope we can do a fraction of that here.

Peter Ladner: 11:35

We talk. We cyclists like to talk that way, but I think there's some reality in those numbers, unlike, let's just say, the so-called billions that come from world cup games coming to vancouver or whatever. So I I think it's great that there's evidence from other regions, and all over the province there are these cycle tourism visions and pieces put together, and the more of them that can be completed to demonstrate what actually happens and get some data, the better. So I wish you the best of luck with that, and do you have any next steps, deadlines, timelines, promises that you're waiting to see fulfilled?

Steve New: 12:12

Well, there's a couple of follow-ups. One is with the provincial government. With the active transportation capital projects that were announced last week by Minister Fleming, we want to find out more about how we can participate in the development of future projects. We're very pleased with the projects that were announced, although none for Salt Spring, but with the work that's underway with the CRD and the consultants that we and they have retained for this work. We think that will be fuel for those future projects cycle tourism, not only in southern Vancouver Island, gulf Islands, but also Sea to Sky, the Okanagan and other regions and we're hopeful that she will be a catalyst for perhaps inter-ministry work. Those with money for capital projects, combined with the ministry's enthusiasm for bringing not only BC but national and international visitors in, will be so important. We want to ensure that the tour operators who are operating on Salt Spring at the moment say that they can get cycle groups in at least once. It's difficult to get them in twice because of the unsafe nature of our roads. How?

Peter Ladner: 13:47

about once a day. Wouldn't that be something you know? There was a theme at the Active Transportation Summit that was held in mid-June in New Westminster that rung true to me, which was that we have to be realistic about what the spending is going to be, have to be to realize the dreams of these cycling infrastructure projects around the province and the reality of achieving the Clean BC goals, and it's going to have to be a vast improvement, a whole order of magnitude. It needs a whole different approach to thinking about the $5 billion Ministry of Transportation infrastructure budget and Mayor Patrick Johnson from New Westminster said let's just say we take 6% of that budget as a target and rally around that number, which would give projects like yours the money to proceed seed.

Peter Ladner: 14:49

I want to move on to another topic and ask you about transit. So we've talked about cycling. That's fine, and e-bikes I'm sure will help get up that ganji's hill. But is there a role for transit in these routes and and along these to attract tourists and and open up even more options for these trails so-called trails, actually roads?

Steve New: 15:05

Yeah, yes, there is. And BC Transit, which was formerly a VP and chief operating officer, in their recently completed 2024 strategic plan. What I see although I've not worked with BC Transit in the last 14 years what I see in the work that they've done is that it's an organization that is outward focused. They're looking at issues bigger than just maintaining the bus, keeping it rolling and so on. Maintaining the bus, keeping it rolling and so on, the typical traditional internal focused organization, and so connecting to communities, connecting to housing, connecting to issues like social isolation. These are issues that aren't always absorbed by transit organization when they're working on their strategic plans. So, in the big picture, bc Transit, to my view, is taking that bigger role and adopting it?

Peter Ladner: 16:17

Do they see themselves as being purveyors of being able to carry bikes and things like that around? I know that the buses that go up to Whistler they all now have these bike trailers on them and sometimes they can put bikes underneath and they're willing to encourage cyclists to use that mode of transit as a way to help them be more active them be more active.

Steve New: 16:42

Bc Transit, from what I've seen, either in the past or under the current strategic plan, are definitely looking at ways to integrate other modes of transportation, like cycling, into their world. So, for instance, it's now quite common to have bike racks on buses. It's quite common to have bike lockers at transit stations. These are ways and with higher order transit, like in TransLink with trains and so on, might exist between organizations or geography are lowered as much as possible so that there's a seamless trip for those riders who are going from one place to another and using other modes of travel and using other modes of travel.

Peter Ladner: 17:54

Now the Island Pathways begins with a ferry trip, ends with a ferry trip, one ferry from Swasson to Fasubias, no Fulford Harbour, and the other one from Fasubias to Crofton. Do you at Island Pathways weigh in on the issues of bikes on ferries? Do you, for example, address the lack of signage, the lack of promotion, the lack of instruction when you're getting on and off the ferry, what cyclists should be doing, the lack of bike parking and obvious places to put your bike and all that kind of stuff? Are you on that too?

Steve New: 18:34

Do you see that as part of your island pathways and Sailor's Sea Trail? Yes, we do see it as a role. I don't think we're fully integrated. The cycling arm of island pathways is relatively new in the last two to three, four years and there's some evidence that even in some of the work that's been done by BC Ferries at the Vesuvius terminal plans hasn't fully absorbed all of our wish lists for easy passage onto and off of the ferries in that link. So it's a constant issue that we need to work on. For instance, even at Swartz Bay major terminal, the greetings between ferry users and transit users is still very basic and it hasn't changed in a long time. So being able to upgrade the terminal design and some of the amenities for walk-on passengers to transit, as well as those with bicycles if they're carrying them on those racks at the front of bicycles, I think still needs work, so the job isn't completely done.

Peter Ladner: 19:43

If I, as a cyclist, approach the ferry terminal of Vesuvius, is there any sign telling me what to do, where to go, how to park? Any of that? I mean, I'm just talking about signage, which I think would be a fairly simple and basic starting point. But I don't see signage anywhere on any ferry saying cyclists, go here, do this welcome, take this entrance, pay here no still, you're correct okay, you're correct.

Peter Ladner: 20:08

Well, we're trying to get bc ferries to come on the podcast and answer for some of these sins of emissions but, uh, so far, uh, no results. But I'm sure they're thinking about this, I know they are.

Steve New: 20:18

They've done some surveys, the president appears to be very oriented towards those linkages and reaching out to other partners, but I think the work to date is still quite traditional. There's limitations of space and dollars and so on. But I think we really need to be bold in looking at active transportation and breaking down the barriers between the modes of transportation so that the trip for the customer is seamless and it's well understood and there's understanding about who gets on the ferry first and where you might wait. And it's well understood and there's understanding about who gets on the ferry first and where you might wait when it's pouring, with rain and and similar ways, even just where to park your bike.

Peter Ladner: 21:07

And I understand they were thinking about having some hanging racks. And, uh, our executive director at the bc cycling coalition, mike Kosky, actually worked at ICBC with Mr Jimenez is his name, yes, jimenez and helped him buy a bicycle, actually, and Mike said, no, don't put a hanging rack on a bike on a ferry, because we're not going to be talking about a lot of e-bikes that are heavy to lift up Some people can't even lift them up to hang them and bikes loaded with panniers front panniers particularly that don't make sense to put in a hangar. So those kind of things they're still working through. But your example at Salt Spring is such a vivid one of the intermodality Is that the right word? The change of modes that is required to make these active transportation dreams come true, particularly these cycling tourism routes, is one of the highest performing types of transit in rural and small town areas.

Steve New: 22:06

It was designed with integration at its heart. So, for instance, the market serving the ferry terminals was an integral part of planning that service. Their arrangements were made for the little minibus. It only fits 24 people and on average it's half transit in the community. Integration is the name of the game.

Peter Ladner: 23:05

Perfect. Well, when I go to communities anywhere and I see a bus go by, I always look to see how many people are in the bus. When it's half full or more, I go. Yes, it's being used, they've obviously they're doing something useful. But how many times have I seen we've all seen in, particularly in smaller communities these big empty buses rumbling around once an hour, maybe one, maybe two people in them, and I don't understand why this keeps happening when it obviously isn't serving a need, whereas in a place like pow River they're experimenting with something called a Zunga bus. I think it is an on-demand bus that will, through software, create the most efficient route through all the demands and be much more efficient and responsive to the public. Do you see that happening at BC Transit? Happening at?

Steve New: 23:53

BC Transit. Yeah, I do see it. There's evidence the fact that Powell River is doing it, and Powell River is a member of that BC Transit group of communities. But BC Transit itself is experimenting with a pilot in a residential area in Kelowna with on-demand transit, which would accomplish the same thing. The difference between the Powell River example that you gave and the Kelowna pilot that's being run is that the pilot is structured in a way that can be scaled up to other communities. So at the core of BC Transit's existence is shared services, in other words, being able to develop services that can be extended easily and scaled up to other communities, and the Kelowna model is based upon that kind of technology. That can be then, once piloted and proven successful, can then be extended to many communities with less effort than reinventing the wheel each time.

Peter Ladner: 25:11

Fantastic. Well, I look forward to that. I know it's underway now, I think, the Cologne experiment and it can't happen soon enough, in my opinion, particularly because we have technology now that can coordinate these things. In Vancouver, in Metro Vancouver, you still have to phone a day ahead for HandyDart. It's like imagine phoning a day ahead for your Uber ride. It's inconceivable. And the technology is there to do a lot of these things differently, better than we've done in the past. And obviously an active transportation future has to involve transit in many, many ways.

Steve New: 25:47

Yeah, what I've seen because of my work I was a past chair of the Canadian Urban Transit Association and also in my own consulting practice for nine years worked across Canada and what I saw in BC was that between with TransLink and BC Transit, these were both best of class organizations. They were outward looking, they're looking for partnerships, they're building, looking at innovation, looking at ways to reduce their carbon footprint as an organization and so on, and it was as a former executive with BC Transit I was quite proud to see the organization is still positioned in that way, In a similar way that BC Cycling Coalition. Hub Capital Bikes are similarly so well regarded by other organizations across the country in recent conversations with Cycle Toronto and Velo Quebec that we're punching above our weight class.

Peter Ladner: 27:01

Well, I'm happy to hear that, although we tend to look at Velo Quebec and say, wow, we'd love to be doing what they're doing, but that's a good thing. Well, it sounds like we've sketched out a future here Better ferries, more accessible to cyclists and active transportation, people route, safe routes through salt spring, starting with smithers and salt spring, and on on around, and then some of these rail trails, because I know part of that cowichan valley leg that you mentioned is on a rail bit former rail bed, and so is the galloping goose, and, uh, wonderful future. We did hear, by the way, at the conference that the Saanich kind of sets the standard for suburban municipality using rail trails to increase their mode share. I believe it's up to 8% and it can be done outside the major built-up centers. Anything else you want to add, steve?

Steve New: 27:52

Yeah, just the direction's very positive. The pace of development seems slow at times, perhaps always Well, I don't know.

Peter Ladner: 28:03

I mean, I like to think that if you see the roads, as it were, with a whole bunch of e-bike riders, through the rebates that are going on, and other people like that, the demand will quickly rise to deal with safety. And also when people see the rainbow of these cycle tours and routes, that people, it's easy to get excited about these routes and if I, you and I can get excited about them, somebody coming from Germany or Atlanta could easily also get excited about them and spawn new industries, new businesses and new and ultimately, new spending to make it all happen.

Steve New: 28:41

Yeah, I think so, and with integrated mobility, as I think of it, there's a new way of thinking that draws social equity into the planning process and the policies of road providers, and I think that's also at the heart of trying to make a change, with so many years of emphasis on auto-oriented infrastructure developments, that trying to rebalance the scales to reflect services for seniors, people with disabilities, walkers, cyclists and so on scooter users, mobility device users Reflecting that, you know, in terms of some hardwired new thinking, is going to be an important continuing step to take.

Peter Ladner: 29:39

We also heard about at the conference from people from Indigenous communities having to walk along the highway and cross the road with no crosswalk to get to some semblance of public transit or a place they can get a ride.

Steve New: 29:46

Yes.

Peter Ladner: 29:48

I think that the main theme of the next provincial election is going to be affordability and these initiatives are absolutely delivering affordability and hopefully some of the politicians will see that and make some commitments and we'll get to this next level, because it's waiting out there for us and it's tantalizing. Thank you so much, steve, it's been wonderful talking with you, and all the best to Island Pathways. Go up to Smithers and find out what they did to get all that whack of funding and bring it back and show Minister Povham how excited you are to be matched.

Steve New: 30:24

We'll speak with the Smithers people and with the minister For sure, and share what sounds like your enthusiasm for that project too.

Peter Ladner: 30:33

Okay, steve, thank you very much, and we'll leave it at that.

Steve New: 30:38

Great Thanks, so much, peter.

Peter Ladner: 30:46

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you liked the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. At bccyclingca, you can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca.

Island Pathways: improving transportation on Salt Spring Island

B.C. Transit's vision

Consul General for the Kingdom of the Netherlands to BC, Sebastiaan Messerschmidt, shares his firsthand experiences of growing up in a country that prioritizes cycling. From his nostalgic childhood memories of biking freely and safely to his current efforts in promoting active transportation projects globally, Sebastiaan offers a unique perspective on the transformative power of cycling-friendly infrastructure, what we can do to up our game, and where BC is getting it right.

Release date: June 06, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education and safety in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Sebastian Meijerschmidt, who is the Consul General for the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and we are going to talk about what BC looks like from the point of view of someone who grew up totally immersed in a cycling culture and what the Netherlands perhaps could offer us, and a bunch of other stuff. But before we do, I'm just going to explain how he ended up on this podcast.

Peter Ladner: 0:58

I was at a conference about the future of transportation in cities and it was almost entirely preoccupied with EVs, charging stations, regulations and so on. And right at the end I stood up and said well, you know, that's great, but there's also a whole other world of active transportation, particularly empowered and opened up and expanded by the arrival and popularity of e-bikes. And after I sat down, a man called Martin van Ouden came up to me, said I'm with the Dutch consulate and we are very interested in this topic. So that led me to a party at Sebastian's place to celebrate the birthday of the King of the Netherlands, the King and Queen, or just the King Just the King, just the King.

Peter Ladner: 1:37

Okay, but the Queen could have been there too. Anyways, and Martin Sebastian has also stepped up to support the Active Transportation Summit that the BC Cycling Coalition is organizing in collaboration with the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, june 18th 19th the Anvil Center. So welcome to the podcast, sebastian.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 2:01

Thank you, I'm very excited. I'm very excited.

Peter Ladner: 2:03

Peter, before we get into the issues, I just want to find out a little bit about you. And first question I've got four questions. The first one is can you remember your first cycling experience or your first time you got on a bicycle?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 2:19

oh you know, was it just well, the dutch people bored with cycles on the feet, so I don't know. Okay, so right in the right out of the womb, yeah, you know, we, we, we get on tricycles and like early stage, early, early, early, early stage, so we play, we play outside, like in my childhood. Might be different now, I don't know how it is now because I'm old, but my childhood we got outside like right immediately on tricycles and then you get the little bicycle with a side wheel to support you, but you want to get rid of those as quick as possible. And then by the time I was like four, like early four, I was riding on, you know, without the side wheels, on my little bicycle through the neighborhood.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 3:08

So let me ask you, not just necessarily about cycling, but have you any other specific memory from your childhood that you would say defines you Well? I think my youth, which also kind of shaped part of my character, was really characterized by a lot of freedom. You get on your little bicycle and I was like five or six and my mom and dad would not see me. I would just morning come back from school, I would say, bye, I'll get on my little bicycle. I was like five or six and my mom and dad would not see me. I would just morning, like, come back from school, I would say, bye, I'll get on my little bicycle, I would go outside and I would play outside all day and the only thing I needed to do was back home before dark. That's the only thing, and then we'd have dinner or whatever. But so so, and that's really I love that, because also the towns were shaped like, especially in the 1970s.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 3:45

The town environments were shaped to really cater also to kids and to cycling infrastructure. You could ride around in a whole neighborhood without feeling unsafe. My parents weren't worried. I think today's parents maybe including myself, are a bit more helicopter parents. We're way more on top of the safety and security of our children. They're a bit more scared and anxious about that. Back then I could just go outside and play and that involved bicycles and one of the things that we would make noise. We'd get these little. You know how you get these things where yogurt is put in like they're plasticky, if you cut them up and you take a peg and you put it on your spokes.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 4:28

Yeah, and it makes a lot of noise. And when you're six, seven years old, that's fantastic. And if you have like 12 of them, you make a lot of noise.

Peter Ladner: 4:36

No, I have to just throw a plug in here for Yutai Lee's video that he did about why kids don't walk to school anymore. It's about 12 minutes long, it's had 1.3 million downloads and it gets into that whole question you were just talking about. Back to you is there a specific project you're proud of that you've been involved with at any point in your career?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 4:58

There's many because I happen to love what I do. The fact that I get paid for this stuff is amazing. There's many things I get to do which is fantastic, um, and some of them are also bicycle related. Uh, we supported the bicycle mayor of cape town. My former posting was in cape town, south africa, and issues around public transportation and local transportation and active transportation are different there from here.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 5:22

Um, and this guy was, and also this predecessor, the woman, lebo Gang, and since both were kind of amazing people, they work in the townships to teach people how to ride the bicycles and that's more healthy because you find more people that are having an unhealthy lifestyle. It's cheaper. You find a lot of people that don't have the money and public transportation into town is sometimes a quarter of what people earn and it's more fun. And they made such an impact with just these projects. So the bicycle mayor that kind of advocates also towards the municipality and towards the city, like guys, if you make the infrastructure, people will be less reliant on public transport or cars and it will be better for all of us and and it was, they were very passionate people and for us to put a little bit of a money with that to make them work better and then also support them in the, in the infrastructure and also in the in the governance fantastic could you explain what?

Peter Ladner: 6:20

what is a bicycle mayor? That's not like the real mayor who happens to be a cyclist. It's somebody who says they're a bicycle mayor.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 6:26

No, no, bicycle mayors are more or less, yeah, they're like ambassadors for bicycle riding. There's an organization called Bikes B-Y-C-S in the Netherlands and they have come up with the concept, so the bicycle mayor of Amsterdam Fietsburgermeester is the Dutch word, if you have any Dutch listeners and they started in the Netherlands to kind of advocate more bicycling infrastructure and it's spread around the world. It reads everywhere there is one in Toronto, there's one in Victoria, there's one in Waterloo, not one in Vancouver. Yet We'll get there. I'm here now. I'm here now. I'm here now. So it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. I was gonna ask you what? What can we learn? Don't worry, okay, later.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 7:14

So that was really, uh, it was, it was a low-hanging fruit for us to, because it serves our global challenges and our global ambitions for the sustainable development goal and and supporting uh, our adaptation towards climate change and also mitigating the, the effects of climate change.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 7:26

So it serves a bigger goal, but also serves the, the goal of of development cooperation, where you want people that are less fortunate to have money to do, to go in different ways of transportation, to be able to actually go from hb uh in a sustainable manner, and so it serves so many. And then also it's a social cohesion. I did a tweet like if people are on x, still you can have all the kinds of debates, whether that's a good or a bad thing. I'm not going there, but uh, I did a tweet in cape town level hung was her name, the bicycle mayor there and she explained really eloquently what riding a bicycle for for a so-called black woman in cape town means and how you also meet other people. It's a social thing, it's a social fabric thing, it's a transportation thing, it's a health thing and it's a money thing.

Peter Ladner: 8:15

So yeah, quite interesting so is cycling, promoting cycling. Is that a policy of the Dutch government? I mean you. You stepped up to support our, our active transportation summit. Yeah, is that part of your mandate to get people onto bicycles wherever there's a Dutch consul general?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 8:35

well, you know, we we aspire still to be bicycle country number one, but we also aspire to help achieve the sustainable development goal. So, yeah, it's definitely part of our mandate. Also, we really as allied countries like Canada and the Netherlands. We really share norms and values. We share an outlook on the world in many aspects, so we are natural partners to work together to improve each other and inspire each other. And one of the ways to improve and inspire each other is looking at mobility, and there's many things that we can learn from the Canadians. In many areas, many things you excel and the Dutch can learn a lot. There's a few areas where I start being very arrogantly bragging about what we can bring to the table, and when it comes down to active transportation and mobility, I think that's an area where we excel, but at the same time, it's an easier win for us.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 9:37

Our country is flat. Our mountains are called the wind. There's no mountains, it's all flat. So there's a song called the Dutch Mountains. You might want to look it up on YouTube one day. It's actually about the wind. So there's no mountains, so it's easier to ride your bicycle right and the infrastructure is there.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 9:55

It wasn't always there. People think that it was always like that? Forget it. Look at pictures of Amsterdam in the 1970s. It was infected. It's just too many cars everywhere and people were stuck in traffic the whole day. It looked horrible and there's a lot of pictures on it If you go Google it.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 10:19

We transformed that in a matter of one and a half decades. How did that happen? Oh, it was a bit of a revolution and not everybody was happy at the time. There was a lot of opposition, especially from people owning shops and people thinking that you need to be able to park your car closer to the shop to actually be able to sell something, because people will not carry it otherwise to their bicycle and get home you know what research shows otherwise through their bicycle and get home. You know what research shows? Research shows if you make an area car-free but make it really accessible by both public transport and by foot and by bicycle, your revenues go up. They don't go down, they go up. As long as you make it the connectedness and intermodality and that's very important, the intermodality if you get that right, then more people will flog in and go to your business.

Peter Ladner: 11:06

Explain more what you mean by intermodality.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 11:10

So it's really important to look at transport not just from a single mode of transport point of view. If you connect the dots really well, more people will be able to move from A to B in a way that's more sustainable, more healthy and more efficient. People get there quicker and happier. So that means if you have a bicycle infrastructure that's really well connected to a train infrastructure. Research has shown in the Netherlands that people that take the train the numbers have gone up substantially substantially, like tens of percentages because they started building really good bicycle parkings where the bicycles were safe, and then the train stations also started to appear repair shops. So if you get to the train station you happen to have a flat tire, you don't need to walk home for eight or nine kilometers because you have a repair shop right there. You come back from your day of work, you get out of the train, you do that last five, six kilometers. Your bicycle is there. It's repaired for you.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 12:11

Also, what happened in the Netherlands is we have our public transportation, especially the trains. They've started their own bicycle rent-out schemes, which is called the public transportation bicycle, the OV-feets in Dutch. They're yellow and blue. You see them everywhere. You get to the train station. The major train stations all have them. You have a subscription, you have a card, you can just get a bicycle. If you don't have a subscription, you just pay and you arrive there and there's hundreds of them so you can choose one. You get on your bicycle and you go to where you need to go.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 12:40

And especially that intermodality, if the last five to 10 kilometers, if you can do that on a bicycle, it saves a lot of congestion. It saves a lot of infrastructure for parking of cars, which take 28,. It's 28 times the size of infrastructure you need for a car than for a bicycle. It's not just about parking you can't park 28 bicycles on the side of a car but also the car lanes and everything. Everything that comes with a car infrastructure is 28 times as big One car, 28 bicycles. So if you can make that jump your efficiency also with town planners or cities that are congested, the benefits are enormous. But you got to connect the dots Because if you have the bicycle infrastructure not well connected to your public transport, it's not going to work. Then nobody's going to do it.

Peter Ladner: 13:35

So, sebastian, you've talked about two things the flatness of the Netherlands and the number of trains that are out there. We don't have. Well, we have SkyTrain in Metro.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 13:44

Vancouver, beautiful SkyTrain. Translink is doing well. It's a beautiful thing. I like the SkyTrain.

Peter Ladner: 13:51

But when you think about the whole province, you arrive here as the Consul General and you're aware of all these things. With this kind of experience, what observations do you have about how we might do some of the same things, knowing that we have mountains, hills, bigger spaces, fewer trains?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 14:11

Yeah Well, you have a few challenges and a few opportunities here that are different from where I'm from. So because you have more space, it's easier to build infrastructure somehow right. So you can have more terrain track because you have more space. We don't have it. We have to be all very efficient on very small plots of land. So you can do more and you can see it also in your buses. Your buses are big and your buses in vancouver also have a. You can put your bicycle in front of the bus on a rack. Fantastic stuff. We don't have stuff. Also, the modality with the buses is quite impressive. I find the bus system in Vancouver quite well organized. I take the bus a lot and even on Google Maps you can see when the buses come. It works.

Peter Ladner: 14:56

I know some shuttle buses between regions have accommodation for bicycles and some of them have a trailer in the back that they can take a bicycle the one from Worcester to Vancouver. Yeah, exactly, talk more about regional transit.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 15:07

Well, there's your opportunity, because nobody's going to ride a bicycle from here to Kelowna, right From Vancouver to Kelowna. Nobody's going to do that unless you are a mammal, middle-aged man in Lycra and you like working out which I might want to do one day because I am one of those then it's fun. But for transport, if you talk just normal transportation, people going from A to B nobody's going to take the bicycle from here to Kelowna, so you need the bus, the train, the car to actually do that. So then you're aiming for a really healthy and good and active transportation, at least for the last mile or for the local area where you are. And if you have a really sustainable way of doing the bigger distances, then great. But that opportunity is not always there. So then you have to think cars, so that the buses have racks and trailers that you can put your bicycle on is really awesome. That's something we don't have in the Netherlands. It's a big opportunity, it's great that you have it and it works. So in some ways we are a bit ahead of you, but we had an easier environment.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 16:09

The Netherlands is maybe what? One and a half times Vancouver Island in size, and we have what? 17 million people, 18 almost so we're all densely packed together, so our bicycle lanes don't have to go for hundreds of kilometers, because then you're in Germany or in Poland or in France or in Spain. So we don't have that for hundreds of kilometer, because then you're in Germany or in Poland or in France or in Spain. So we don't have that, even though also there you see, european, we have a really dense network of bicycle lanes and it's nodes and it's a well-structured system and that's also spreading to. The Belgians have it too. So we're connecting the two. So we now have we call bicycle highways, almost door fietsroutes, which is kind of how would you translate that Thru-go bicycle routes, that kind of more long distance for people that are wanting to go longer distance. You can go from town to town, it's all connected.

Peter Ladner: 17:08

I want to go back to how you get there from here, and you mentioned the pushback, and then you said there was data that shows, and we found the same thing here. When a bike route goes in, it's quite typical for the adjacent businesses to scream horror, it's still. We're still fighting this out in vancouver on commercial drive, and then the data shows that they actually do better. Is there other data that shows the benefits of of cycling that somehow help tip the balance and win public opinion? Or is it just a matter of having the courage to put something on the ground and then let people see and experience it for themselves?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 17:42

Yeah, it's the courage of having people experience it for themselves and then demanding it from their cities, from their towns, from their councillors, from their mayors. Please do something about this, because we want more of this.

Peter Ladner: 17:56

So, other than these kind of exhortations for change in public policy, are there Dutch businesses? I know part of your job is to promote Dutch businesses in exchange of commerce and so on, but are there levels of expertise or new technology in this field that you feel we could benefit from that you already have in the Netherlands? I mean, you mentioned the bike garages at the train stations, but other things?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 18:23

Yeah, definitely. Now let me just first jump a little bit back. So modern diplomacy is really about building ecosystem, especially between allied countries. So I'm not here only to sell Dutch product. That would be the old style diplomatic way. We really want to innovate together. We want to get to those solutions together. So if there's a really good Canadian company that does business in the Netherlands, I think we both profit, or the other way around, I don't really care, it needs to happen. And also in the transportation system, same thing. There's some really good thinkers out here and in the Netherlands. If you connect them, you get a more beautiful product.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 18:58

Actually, to continue on that note for a little bit before I get to your question, george Liu, who is coming to the Act for Active Transportation Summit, is working for the Amsterdam municipality, but he's actually a Vancouverite before, so he's Canadian. Chris Bruntlett, who is a Vancouverite before, is now in the city of Delft in the Netherlands running the Dutch cycling embassy, like the Canadian becoming totally Dutch, like super Dutch, wonderful, super Dutch so, and actually promoting this now. So, and that's the kind of thing you want to happen, because that's where you start to innovate together. There is, if there's research institutes and universities that kind of collaborate on these things. That's what you want to happen. So that's actually also as we are, as a consulate, also stepping into this ecosystem. That's what we're hoping to get to, where we get people to talk to each other across the ocean, across the big land that we have between us, but start exchanging ideas.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 19:56

And there's so many revolutions going on at the moment which will make active and sustainable transportation more attainable, and some of them are small, some of them are big. The big one, of course, is the electric bicycle, the e-bike. There's no more excuse for you, if you live in Vancouver, to not take a bicycle because it's so hilly. So what? It's hilly. If you have an e-bike, you can get on your e-bike and get across those hills, and that would apply to any town in BC, that's right, that's right.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 20:31

So the e-bike, although they're still expensive, so it's more. It's maybe not the elite elite, but you have to be. You have to earn a pretty good buck to to to buy a nice e-bike. But the second hand market, second hand market is coming up because the first generation is coming on to facebook, marketplace and what have you, and craigslist, so you can get there. You can get there. I've seen really good to offer, so e-bikes are becoming attainable. Other things, um well, just on the attainable e-bikes are becoming attainable.

Peter Ladner: 21:00

Other things. Well, just on the attainable e-bikes, just a footnote there, the city of Saanich has had an e-bike rebate program. Depending on your income, you could get a subsidy to buy an e-bike, and UBC has just published the results of a survey to find out what the impact was, and they were very positive about a lot of car trips replaced. What the impact was, and they were very positive about a lot of car trips replaced. Yeah, nine out of ten of the people who got the major subsidy would not have been able to afford an e-bike otherwise.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 21:26

So this is something again the bc cycling coalition is pushing for and they go and look at your bike share system really well done. There are stations everywhere over vancouver. I haven't seen in other municipalities as much, but in Vancouver it really strikes me. If I want to just get on a bicycle, I can get the app out. Usually within a kilometer I can get to a bicycle Fantastic. Some of them are electric even Really great and you see the trucks coming by to load them in, to make sure that they're all maintained, bring them into the workshop and put them back out again. That's a really strong proposition for a better way of transporting your people in your city while saving making sure there's no congestion, saving some bucks for the people that maybe have to save some bucks or want to save some bucks, and keeping people healthy. It's also relieving some pressure on the health care system.

Peter Ladner: 22:23

When you ride your bicycle around Vancouver, when you're not out for a serious ride with your Lycra, do you wear fancy clothes? Do you just wear ordinary clothes? Or do you not even bicycle around Vancouver? You said you go on the bus.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 22:38

No, I take the bus occasionally. I prefer the bicycle and I sometimes unfortunately have to take the car because of the distances and the time that is to me. So that always irritates me. I don't have the time to go on the bike. I'm always a bit frustrated.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 22:52

I rode my bicycle this morning. I put on my jeans and I ride the bicycle to work and I change at work, put my suit on or whatever I need to wear that day. I have a little backpack on my back where my clothes are in Works, fine, and you know what? We don't melt in the rain. So when it rains or even when it snows, there's gear out there which you can put on your rain pants or your rain over shoes and then you're fine.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 23:21

You get home, you're happy and riding in the rain actually people don't know that. People that are driving in a car all the time do not know that the experience of riding in the rain is actually fun. It's only that transition from that time when you are still inside and you look at the weather outside you go oh, it's raining. That's when you kind of don't want to go. And then also the first maybe two minutes when you're in it, when you first start getting, oh it's raining, but actually, when you're in it and you feel those little specks of rain on your face, it's actually nice. It's actually really nice.

Peter Ladner: 23:56

One of the things I always think when I'm riding in the rain and I can see people in the cars going by, I think do they know that I'm warm and dry and having a good time? Probably not.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 24:06

No, they don't. They won't believe you when they tell you. There's one thing, though, before you go on to the next question, there's one thing, though. That's different from me here than riding in many cities in Europe, not just the Netherlands is I'm a bit more scared of the traffic here, so I really commend the city of Vancouver of having worked out lanes where bicycles are more safe. So I know my routes. Now I know how to get from my home to my office and taking routes that are fairly traffic low or even have a separate bike lane.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 24:45

But in the beginning, when I didn't know, I sometimes made a mistake to take the wrong road, and then it's just scary because people are not as used to bicycles out here. So I can't rely on a car when I'm passing, when I'm riding my car, car passing me taking a right, I can't rely on that person to look over the shoulder to check whether there's a bicycle there. That's the first thing you learn when you're taking driver's lessons in the Netherlands. You have to look over your shoulder to make sure there's no bicycle, look in your mirror and look over your shoulder to make sure there's no bicycle when you're turning right. Now, you can't rely on that here. So I'm wearing a helmet here, which is the way. More is the law. But my wife always screams at me when I try it out too, because I'm done, we don't do it, but it's also, it makes sense. After the first few times I'm like, yeah, I do want to wear my helmet here Because it's just, it feels a little.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 25:33

And that's where I think there's an improvement to be made, like making people aware that there's different modes of transport. People that are in a car, there's people on scooters there, people on bicycles there. Those people on bicycles and on scooters need to behave, because if they irritate the cars drivers, then it's going to get worse, and that's what you see sometimes. I'm irritated when a bicycle rider takes the Granville Bridge, because you will just make the car drivers very angry, and it's not good for me either, because then they will look at all bicycles go, oh you, and then beep bicycles. So you got to be sensible about this. So you got to educate each other and share the road, but then make it in a way that bicycles understand. Okay, this road is really for cars. I should not be here. Let me just go a different way.

Peter Ladner: 26:19

So that brings me to. We're going to wrap this up in a minute, but we've talked quite a bit about Vancouver and the places that have a higher level of bike lanes and protection and bikes on buses and so on, but a small community where the prevailing necessity, let's say, is that everybody's in their car on the roads and the roads are not designed for cyclists at all. Do you have any advice for people in those smaller communities, what they can do, based on the experience in the netherlands of converting from a pretty much all car culture to a pretty much all cycle culture?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 26:58

yeah, um, I think think it maybe takes groups like the BC Cycle Coalition and HubCycle to kind of work out maybe programs first where they can have people experience being on a bicycle going from A to B and negotiating with the municipality hey, can you close this road off? We want to do a bike to school week. Can we just try this out for one day a year to kind of have people get in touch with it? Because you first need that base of people saying, okay, this is feasible and I will do it once it's there, because no policymaker is going to put in very expensive infrastructure if the policymaker doesn't believe that that it's going to pay off.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 27:43

Yeah, yeah and then and then and then maybe you know you can take the back alleys. First, if the, if the, the city doesn't have the bicycle agency, you can take the alleys. That's the nice thing about city infrastructure in canada usually you have the major road and then you have the small back alley which you can, which can work for a while and that can get people on the bicycle, and then you actually really just have to lobby your decision maker, your town planners.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 28:08

Well, speaking of back alleys, the town planners that look further ahead and who talk to the developers of area.

Peter Ladner: 28:17

On the matter of driving back alleys, of course sometimes people bail out and ride on the. On the matter of of uh, driving back alleys, of course sometimes people bail out and ride on the sidewalk, which creates problems with pedestrians yeah and is not a good idea. However, I just wanted to ask you about in amsterdam, with all those uh cyclists driving around, there are conflicts with pedestrians and uh, what? What's your, your thought, what are your thoughts about that?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 28:43

yeah, it can get. It can sometimes even get ugly. Um, not just in amsterdam. There's this, this intersection in the hague, which always fascinates me. There's an internet section in the hague, very close to the town hall, where tram goes through tram, tram line. There's cars coming through, not many, only taxis and buses, and then there's bicycles and pedestrians and there's no signs on the road, there's no lines, there's no dotted lines, straight lines, nothing, nothing. And it's a big intersection. The first time you see it it's intimidating, it's scary, peter, you know what research says it's safer, fewer accidents. You know why? Well, people pay attention. They don't rely on signs and stuff. And now it's my way, so I can just go 100 miles an hour through this area. No, they have to actually pay attention themselves. And it works. And the first time I saw it I thought it was intimidating. I was like this is scary, I need to get from here to the other side of the road. I'm Dutch, I was born there and raised. But you know, it worked and it seems to work. Data shows it works.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 29:52

And Amsterdam it's usually people that are not accustomed to the way of moving. So the tourists that walk on a bicycle, road Bicycle of moving. So the tourists that walk on a bicycle road, bicycle paths in the Netherlands are red. They're very visible. They're red, red tarmac, red asphalt. So it's quite clear to everybody who knows it that you're walking on a bicycle path and that might not be the smartest thing to do. It's like walking on a highway while walking your dog. You don't do that right. You don't walk your dog on the highway, so why walk with your suitcase on a red asphalt bicycle lane? The thing is, people that come in as a tourist don't know this. You can't blame them because nobody told them. So they usually find out the first 15 minutes that they're there because there's bicycle coming by and they first ring jing, jing, jing, jing with their little bell on the bicycle. Of course tourist doesn't know what that means, keeps walking. Then you get a little bit of a Dutch directness thrown at your head in verbal, verbal, not very nice way, because it's unfortunately who we are. We're quite direct, but then you know. Then you know you figure out oh wait a minute, this maybe. Figure out. Oh, wait a minute, this maybe is not my place, and that usually goes okay. But you have to like and also you have the youngsters Like I was a student in Amsterdam.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 31:03

I was very irresponsible. I had a very irresponsible game which I maybe should not talk about on the podcast. I was studying, I was living on one side of the Amsterdam, I had classes on the other side of Amsterdam. My game was to go from one side of Amsterdam to the other side of Amsterdam without stopping. Now that, peter, is a very irresponsible bad idea. It went okay because I was quite agile and the police stopped me once and said really, what are you doing?

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 31:32

I'm like, yeah, maybe this was a bit yeah, but the fact is it's kind of organic. The good thing about it is it's kind of organic. The good thing about it is it's kind of organic. The bicycles and the cars they know each other and they organically move with each other. If you know that a car is taking a left, as a bicycle, you kind of tail because you know that car. When the car is going, it's safe, so you can kind of tail. Dutch people do that. It's organic. And when you approach as a car coming and you see you always check is there anything around it? Is there a bicycle around it or moped? You know it's an organic wave.

Peter Ladner: 32:05

Yeah, it works so I I don't think we want to go on the record saying that the recommendation from the consul general no, it isn't, it was stupid, I told you no, no, not that you drive around without stopping, but that you take away all the traffic signs and let people just sort it out.

Peter Ladner: 32:22

There is an example of that in Vancouver, by the way, which is Granville Island. There are no traffic signs there, and the pedestrians and cars and cyclists all work it out by being more careful. Well, we're happy to accept your label of us as frontrunners in anything regarding cycling and would love to stay in touch and encourage you to join in with any of these advocacy movements and help us achieve even part of what you've done in the Netherlands, which is such an inspiration for us all. So thanks so much, sebastian.

Sebastiaan Messerschmidt: 32:57

It's a passionate subject for me, so I like talking about it. Thanks so much for the opportunity, much appreciated.

Peter Ladner: 33:07

Thanks for listening to Bike Sense and supporting safe cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. The BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. The BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors BC Hydro, richards Buell, sutton, icbc Moto and the Bicycle Pro.

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How does a fleet of cyclists lobby City Hall at a meeting where there's no bike parking? BCCC Bike Valet Grant Administrator Sam Holland explains how that bike parking gap in San Francisco in the 1970s led to an explosion of bike valet parking around North America. He explains how bike valets change the way people get to festivals, sporting events, town hall meetings and shopping destinations, including a couple who ride from Saanich to downtown Victoria to shop just because their bikes are protected by a bike valet.

Release date: May 06, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Six, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety. I'm your host, Peter Ladkin, chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Sam Holland, who is the Bike Valet Grant Administrator for the BC Cycling Coalition. But I'm bringing him on the podcast because he is very knowledgeable about bike valets. So we're going to ask him about what are they, when do they work, what do they actually do? Are they effective in getting people to change their way of moving around? And what are some great examples? And if you want to put one together yourself, what do you need to know? So that's the general drift. Sam, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Sam, how did bike valets get started?

Sam Holland: 1:11

So, I mean, with every origin story, right, there's a little bit of uh urban myth involved, but we're good with that. The best, the best that I've seen is that about 1994 in San Francisco, as part of the pro-cycling infrastructure, critical mass um type protests, people would ride to City Hall. Um, but then they would they would get there for the hearings, for the discussions on like uh public funding, um, cycling infrastructure. They couldn't go in because there was nowhere to park their bike, uh, which is such a classic, like, of course we need infrastructure, but we can't even go to city hall to complain about it. Uh so what they did, one guy was like, Well, you guys all need to go inside. I don't need to go inside. So I'll stay and guard your bikes. Uh, you just leave them out here with me, I'll make sure no one takes them, and you can go in and talk. And that was the the story of the first bike ballet. And I actually, that's one of the things that's really fun for me about bike valet, is it it really feels like part of that um you know, 70s, 80s, 90s cycling counterculture that you sometimes find at like really funky bike shops and uh the cycling anarchist collectives. I I just I find those very fun. Um and bicycle valet fits in that because it's something you can just do. It doesn't require a lot of comp it's not complicated, it's not expensive, it's just uh a simple solution for a simple problem. Uh and that just really fits with the that kind of part of the cycling culture, but it just benefits everyone.

Peter Ladner: 2:42

Uh so I love how it can be as simple as one person standing there beside a whole bunch of bikes, making sure nobody comes and steals anything. That's pretty basic.

Sam Holland: 2:54

It is. I mean, that's that's the at its most basic, that's what bike valet is, right? Everything else is just refinement, efficiency, uh, extra security, but it's just making sure no one steals your bike, and I think everyone can get behind that. Absolutely. So just to keep things really clear, uh today when we're discussing bike valet, um, I'm meaning something more like a coat check for bikes. So you bring your bike, um, you get a tag, someone whisks your bike away and parks it, um, as opposed to something like uh a security guard watching over bicycle racks or um some hybrid system that you might have already seen somewhere else.

Peter Ladner: 3:34

Okay, we'll get into that, but I want to cut to the chase here. Do they work? And if they work, what are they supposed to do? I I would assume that they're supposed to encourage someone to bring a bike who would otherwise not bring a bike. Is that actually the case?

Sam Holland: 3:49

It's very hard to measure like specific drivers of mode shift, but in my experience, uh bike valets are really successful in driving particularly two kinds of riders. So that's um young families and older folks with e-bikes. Um so looking at, for example, uh Victoria, where we have uh a bike valet that has now been pretty much year-round uh for a couple years now. Where is it? Um it's right in the downtown core, so it's hosted at Victoria City Hall.

Peter Ladner: 4:19

Um, so it's just a general parking parking area for anybody who shows up.

Sam Holland: 4:23

It's not like tied to an event or a no, it's uh it's permanent, uh, it's year-round. Um and I think that like when we're talking about driving mode shift over like at a city level, that's the kind of changes and and programs we need to be thinking about. Something that's reliable, uh, that can be used for the daily driver, daily commute. Um and that's kind of more distinct from looking at mode shift at an event level where you're dealing with like parking issues uh for you know festivals or markets. Um and yeah, I've I've worked that valet, uh, and we look at our feedback and and our metrics, we've seen steadily increasing usage year over year, even in the winter time where you know people are like, oh, you wouldn't cycle in the winter. I mean, we're blessed in Victoria that our weather is pretty good most of the time in the winter. Um but and there is some correlation between you know weather and people cycling, but there's lots of people cycling in the winter too. And the thing is that over the years we've seen more and more e-bikes. Um and generally when we're talking about um bicycle parking, people are way more insecure about parking. They're really expensive e-bikes uh downtown. Like we're looking at e-bikes that cost the same as a car, even if it's a cheap car. Um and e-bikes are driving this huge shift to bicycling, especially for older riders and families, because they uh they can get you up hills that you might not be able to do. Uh, and they can get you into town much faster than the average rider uh pedaling by themselves.

Peter Ladner: 6:02

So is that why you say the usage has been growing because of families and e-bikes? Are these families with e-bikes as well as seniors with e-bikes? So it's basically about e-bikes.

Sam Holland: 6:14

Um we've seen like a big increase in the share of e-bikes. Um it is it is really about 50-50 in terms of um of who is using the service at event, both events and at the permanent installation. Um but the the riders who I think most benefit from the uh from the service are the ones that have those uh those e-bikes and cargo bikes, uh, not least for families, because families have not just e-bikes, they have so much stuff they need to bring. So if you've ever seen like you know, the cycling, cycling mom, cycling dad with their uh their cargo bikes, they're usually loaded up. Uh all the stuff for the kids, right? You have you know whatever activities you have, you might have their sheet music, if they're a musician, or a ball if they're a you know, and they're cleats if they're going to play soccer. And that that stuff is traditionally what you know uh you might carry in your minivan, right? Uh and I like the term you hear now and Victoria. I don't know if it's elsewhere in in BC, but the millennial minivan. Okay. Good one. And that's that's what uh we that's what we see uh for a lot of these, you know, they're sometimes called bucket bikes, where's the big buckets in the front, you have the kids riding, you have the stuff. Uh and those those uh families, even if they don't make a huge, like an enormous share of all of the bikes that are coming in, I think they benefit some of the most from these services.

Peter Ladner: 7:38

So you're offering security not just for the bike, but all the gear that's in it. They don't have to have that all locked up too. I I went to a sporting event at BC Place and uh used the bike valet, and it was a rainy day. So I had all my my wet weather gear, but you're not allowed to carry a bag into the stadium. So I was very happy I could just leave that at the bike valet and not worry about it. But tell me, people presumably are motivated by a fear of their bike getting stolen. Do you know anything about is that a real fear or just an imagined fear? Are there a lot of e-bikes being stolen in downtown Victoria without that aren't in the bike valet compound?

Sam Holland: 8:16

Well, we have seen a decline in overall bike theft uh since the opening of that bike valet downtown in Victoria. Um and yes, e-bikes do get stolen. Um the batteries, especially, off get stolen off them. So people will steal them, and then you'll just see the frame lying by the side of the road with the more expensive parts ripped off of them. Um and so there's there's other things you can do with a bike valet. For example, bike registration systems like Project 529 make an excellent pairing with bike ballet.

Peter Ladner: 8:44

Um just tell us for a second, Project 529. I know that's available in Victoria and Vancouver. Is it available throughout the province?

Sam Holland: 8:51

I think they did just get funding to offer that throughout uh with police departments across the whole province. Um, so yes, uh, I believe while it might not be in your municipality right now, um, you can definitely register it. Uh the question is whether your local police departments are already um using it. So that's something to check on the 529 website. Let's just or with your local police department.

Peter Ladner: 9:14

Just do a little sidetrack on project 529. When you register your bike, what do you get? How is it how does it protect your bike?

Sam Holland: 9:22

So it's the bike registry that uh police departments use to check um like if a bike is stolen uh or who the owner of a bike. So there's a couple components to that. One is the registration. So you basically take a picture of your bike, you take uh the identifying information like uh serial number, any special things about the bike, like its color, its make, um, maybe what year it is, depending on how much information you have on your bike. And you put this into their database using their app, it's pretty quick. Um doesn't take more than a couple minutes. And then uh when if your bike is stolen, you can report it stolen on the app. So uh or online. And so when police are looking around, if they see a bike they think is stolen, they'll do a check on uh there's there's stickers you can put on the bike that have a really clear identifying number, or they can check the serial number against that database to see if that bike or something they can search by description to um just just to really try and track that bike down.

Peter Ladner: 10:23

So it gives you a really much higher chance of getting your bike back if it's stolen, but it's it's not and maybe a sh a smart thief would see the sticker and go, I better not steal this bike because the police will find me. So let's talk about um you're administering some grants for the BC Cycling Coalition that were uh the Ministry of Transportation Information and Infrastructure set up. And you've received applications from all over the province, so you've got a pretty good view of who's doing bike valets, who is doing bike valets, what organizations are doing them around the province.

Sam Holland: 10:57

So I can't speak too much about applications because we haven't uh announced uh any of that information. But in terms of who is currently doing bike valets, um it's actually a very diverse uh set of people. So in Victoria, for example, we have Capital Bike, um, which is like the local cycling group. We have uh more coalition like cycling coalitions across the province, so member organizations of the BC Cycling Coalition, um, including uh like the Comox Valley Cycling Coalition up Island, uh River City Cycles in Campbell River. Um we even see private companies like uh I think Whistler Bike Valley uh does a contract with the City of Whistler, uh the resort municipality of Whistler, uh to be uh pedantic about it. Um there's there's some larger players like the nonprofit Best, that's better environmentally sound transportation, I think, in Vancouver. Uh and then you start to see like really smaller players and municipalities. Um cycling coalitions, municipalities, a few private companies, and then maybe pop up things like their own, like nonprofits that do festivals, they might have their own bicycle valet solution. Um, like I think even in Victoria, our local jazz festival has like their bike parking solution. It's uh I think it's just raffle tickets that they, you know, they'll put it on your bike, and uh it's kind of like you check your bike in, you check your bike out. It's not the same, like it's uh not a traditional bike valet as I described at the beginning, but you have that full range across BC of services from individual small nonprofits to even municipalities offering these services. In terms of event bicycle parking, which is I think where the the bicycle valet really shines, um, even in long term, like if you say, like, let's throw money at this bicycle parking problem, what can we do? Um, I don't actually see a better long-term solution for events than bicycle valet. And that's because you have events in places that don't it doesn't necessarily make sense to put in like a multi-million dollar bike parking solution. You have one or two days where you have huge demand and huge you know, huge need. And bicycle valets fill that niche of secure bike parking over a period of time, uh like a shorter period of time, uh, and then it doesn't require like huge investment.

Peter Ladner: 13:31

Um much investment does it require to do a reasonable size bike valet? Do you have a like a working number? Is it gonna be at least whatever it is?

Sam Holland: 13:42

Um it really depends on what kind of group you're working with, uh and what part of the province, because labor costs vary quite a lot. If you're doing a volunteer-run service, like quite a few markets do, uh, with the local cycling coalitions, your costs are gonna be really low. Like um, even your upfront costs, racks are somewhere in between you know$100 and$500 each, depending on how you get them, what the shipping is, where you get them.

Peter Ladner: 14:07

How many bikes would that would that park?

Sam Holland: 14:09

About 10. 500 bucks. About 10 uh bikes. Um 500 is much very much on the high end, but and and you have to remember that about half the bikes we're parking don't require those racks because they're e-bikes and they stand themselves up. So if you're thinking each rack, you know, for each rack, you're actually buying about double that capacity essentially. Um you get some fencing, you can rent that, or the event provides it. Uh, because most most large events already have big fencing orders, so they can just throw a couple fences on that. Um and then you're looking at just things like tents and chairs and tables that you can usually borrow or you already have lying around. So uh like tag systems, if you just really need to get something started, you can use raffle tickets, and those those are really cheap. Um so like just getting started at the most basic level, very low barrier to entry. Um, and in fact, you might not need to buy racks because triathlons already are gonna have some if you have a triathlon or a uh like bicycle races in your city, they're going to have the kinds of racks you can use for bike valet. Uh and in fact, uh we collaborate with the uh the Tor de Vic in Victoria um to provide larger numbers of racks when we don't have the the number that we want uh or need for an event. How many how many people do you need? Can you do it with two people? Definitely. Um so you should generally have at at least two people, like two people is the minimum so that someone can take a break, but someone's guarding the bikes. Um and then the the any increased numbers is really about dealing with large numbers of people coming all at once. So if you're tidy and orderly in how you put the bikes away, like it's all in sequential order, so you can find them really quickly based on the number or the color, however your system works. There's you can look at the bicycle valet toolkit uh on the BC website, uh BC Cycling website to see more about that. Um but uh yeah, having those having those staff members uh or volunteers just allows you to process huge like large numbers of people. So, for example, at the um South Island Pow Wow, there was a Truth and Real Reconciliation ride um on like the on Truth and Reconciliation Day in 2023. Um I was working that event, and I think we handled something like 200 riders arriving in the space of about 20 minutes. I mean, people had to people had to wait a little bit of time, and we had about 10, 15 people running back and forth with bikes. Um, but as long as you have a good system, you can scale it up really effectively to handle pretty much any number of people. That day we parked over 600 bicycles uh in a pretty short time frame. It was there was not many opportunities to sit down that day. Um and then the I would say the previous month at we have a pretty big music festival. We parked over 2,000 bikes across two weekends. Uh, and that was that was really kind of inspiring to see because that music festival was able to run with basically no parking. Um so everyone came by active transportation or they came by bus uh or maybe taxi.

Peter Ladner: 17:22

Do you think that having a bike valet will attract some people to an event who would otherwise not come?

Sam Holland: 17:29

Definitely. And I think that applies to downtowns as well. So uh we've actually I had a really nice conversation last year with um a couple of uh a night a very nice older couple who said, you know, we live out in Saanich, that's a municipality just outside Victoria, um, not very far. Um, you know, we used to shop in Saanich, but now that the bike valet is downtown, we don't really feel comfortable like leaving and locking our bikes up in Saanich relative to that. So we just come down here for brunch now, every Saturday, every Sunday, instead of uh instead of going out to eat in Saanich, um, because we just feel so much safer. So those kinds of those kinds of small changes um definitely add up. And in fact, in the downtown core, you see a lot of people coming back to shopping.

Peter Ladner: 18:16

Uh putting the lie to that myth that you can't shop with a bicycle. But we're that's a whole other podcast, too. So in your in your view, looking at the growth of these things and all the different kinds, um where would you like to see what's your dream for bike valets? You know, one at every event or every downtown has one, or every public library has one, or I don't know what schools.

Sam Holland: 18:43

Really, my dream for this is that when we're talking about parking, that we talk about bicycle parking as a serious component. Active transportation parking, really, because bike valets park scooters, they park skateboards, uh, they park strollers, which are all part of the mobility um equation and solution. Um I I really think that whenever we consider parking, we consider bike we should consider bike, you know, bike valet, attended bicycle parking, good bike racks, they should all be part of that solution that um and and every problem will have its own solution. Uh there's no one size fits all for bike parking. Uh, and that's that's one of the reasons that I'm trying to develop these materials is to provide more context on that. I I really don't feel that planners actually have a very good toolkit um for those kinds of bicycle parking solutions, especially in BC.

Peter Ladner: 19:43

So other than planners knowing how to do them better and uh some policies where people planning events in cities and infrastructure always think about bike parking. What would it take to roll out more of these? Is it just a matter of money?

Sam Holland: 20:00

Um it's a matter of money and a matter of interest. And bike valets work really well in combination with infrastructure because the the I mean, always that the first thing that's gonna stop people from riding is not feeling safe on the road. And then after that, they need to feel safe off the road, right? They need to feel safe that their bike is secure, that their stuff is secure. Um, so I think like it's kind of the second step. Um safety first on the roads, then safety second, or safety first after, uh, if that makes sense. And perfect sense. Uh I think the there's a couple a couple things there, because I mentioned that bicycle valley is part of a continuum of bicycle parking solutions. Uh one of the things that I really think we should be talking about is that municipalities should include um bike parking as part of event permitting. So one of the things when big events, they already do have to consider parking. Um, for example, if you want to shut down roads or have a big event in a park in pretty much any municipality in BC, they need to consider the effect on the surrounding neighborhoods and roads. Uh so they need to have traffic plans, they need to have parking plans for cars and deal with the disruption that entails. But most municipalities don't require any kind of serious look into how to get there by active transportation. Uh, and I think that's what we really need to be talking about here is if you're going to be, especially in urban areas or areas close to bicycling infrastructure, cycling infrastructure, um, you should be required to consider what kinds of services you should be offering uh so that it's a safe and inviting place for people to arrive in a sustainable and healthy way.

Peter Ladner: 21:47

Wonderful. I love that. So if if you if I were a potential sponsor, do these bike valets themselves get sponsored? And is that a value for some, I don't know, corporation or group that wants to sponsor them and make them more available?

Sam Holland: 22:04

I mean, especially the fixed location ones, yes. Um, so I think uh the downtown Vancouver one, for example, is sponsored, and Translink in uh in Vancouver sponsors quite a few bike valets, uh, although their name isn't always on the bike valet, like they're a big supporter of uh better environmentally sound transportation, and that's one of the reasons they can have bike valets in so many places and at so many Translink stations. Um if you're looking at uh event valets, uh that's really gonna come down to the event too. Um I think that having a branded service that's like, you know, this is the River City Cycling Club, or you know, the this this is a bike valet with its own brand, that's gonna really help with people finding the service. So if you have um so it if you're going to sponsor your service, you should make sure that it's very clear year to year that it's the same thing. Um because people you'll you'll have have to be able to build that trust over the over that time with your uh your clients, the people coming to you with their bike. Uh because it's a it's a big trust thing. Um you're giving someone your little baby that you got uh you got there, um and it's your way back home as well.

Peter Ladner: 23:31

So do you have to pay do they have to be free or do people are people willing to pay for them? And if so, how much?

Sam Holland: 23:38

Uh the most, like the best practice um that I have seen uh and that I have uh that that is pretty standard across industry is that they are free to whoever's bringing their bike. As soon as you introduce a cost, um there's there's actually quite a few issues with that. One, you then have to have infrastructure on site so that people can pay, um which is uh not always the easiest, especially in areas that have like very poor cell reception, which is quite a lot of VC. Um you then also have that delay, so you're much less efficient. Um you have to train staff on how to use that, uh, which if you're doing a volunteer service, uh that adds like a whole nother level of complexity. Um and also people are just gonna be less likely to use it as soon as they have to pay. Like uh that's that's pretty standard. I I've read about, for example, even transit. You know, the moment you make transit free, there's just like something clicks in someone's head, and it's just a way we perceive cost. Uh as soon as you add a charge, it seems way way more expensive, uh, which is one of the reasons, for example, we uh we totally underprice uh the cost of driving uh when you drive a car. Uh it's way it's gonna be way more expensive than you think it is. But we can't you can charge events and you can charge uh provide like uh municipalities to offer those services, and that is a sustainable costing model.

Peter Ladner: 25:07

I I know that the Better Environmentally Sound Transportation has specialized in this, and they have on their website, I'm sure, some information about how to do a great bike valet or how they could do it for you. Uh thinking of the future, if you think about parking garages, uh they used to always have somebody at an attendant taking your money and checking you in and out. Now it's all automated. Is there an automated future for bike valets? Surveillance cameras or RFID chips or I don't know, automatic payment devices or check-in devices? Or is that too complicated?

Sam Holland: 25:42

There's definitely all kinds of solutions for, you know, we we talked about train stations as being that kind of perfect spot for like large-scale investment in permanent bicycling infrastructure. I don't see an automated solution for events uh that would be secure. Uh it's just like the the bike valet model is just kind of perfect for that solution or that problem, I should say. It's a perfect solution to the problem. Um in terms of like downtown bike parking, um, yeah, you have those solutions in like the UK or the Netherlands or Japan where you see these big um cycling garages, or in Japan you actually see the like the automated say this whisk your bike up into a thing. Um there's a couple challenges to that, and one of them is of course e-bikes. It's a lot easier to store a whole bunch of autom like automated storage with um with just kind of standard road bikes, is much simpler than dealing with people's cargo bikes and bucket bikes. Um But having and surveillance cameras are generally less effective than having someone there. I mean, my friend, for example, he got his bike stolen at my university, where we have, I think, pretty much the thing you're talking about, which is uh it's secure bike bicycle storage with uh cameras out the wazoo and an automated door. Um although they did have to take the automation off because the birds kept kept activating the automated door. Uh so in theory, an automated door, yeah. Uh but yeah, he got his bike stolen right out of that, which is like sort of the I don't want to say gold standard, but it's kind of the best we can expect uh for for locking your bike up, which is you know a secure space, lots of cameras. In theory, there's lots of foot traffic. Still got his bike stolen. Um did he get it back? He did not get it back. Uh he he also he didn't have it registered with Project 529, so he might have if he had it registered in registry. But um for so for those kinds of bike um like large infrastructure scale solutions, I think there's a lot of things that we could be looking at. Um, but I'm not sure that cameras and heavier locks are necessarily the solution for that.

Peter Ladner: 28:00

Sam, are there liability issues with organizations setting these up?

Sam Holland: 28:05

I mean, there's there's liability issues with doing anything uh ever. But uh in terms of providing bicycle valet services, it's definitely advisable that your organization should have good liability insurance, um, and that that insurance covers the places that you're doing the bike valet. Um all in all, I mean the the liability is fairly minimal as a service service. Like uh if you think of the kinds of things that, especially like cycling groups do, with group rides um and all that type of stuff, there's some pretty high-risk activities just from a liability perspective, in terms of you know, taking people out in your traffic. And um when you're talking about the liability of a bike valet, like the the number one there was two main things, right? Bike theft and like e-bikes exploding and catching on fire. Uh, neither of which I have ever had to deal with as an issue. In fact, uh we sort of had negative bicycle theft because we recovered a couple stolen bikes. Um fantastic. But in in terms of liability from theft, well, bike valet is much safer than the alternative. So if you're uh if you're an event organizer uh and you're thinking about providing services for cyclists in general, um you're going to bear some of that liability risk. So why not go with the best solution that's going to provide the least risk? Uh in terms of the bike valet model, um, in terms of innovations we can see there, I think one of the biggest issues right now is actually data. Um so in in BC actually has quite poor data collection on things like bicycle parking. Um, most of the efforts that have been done, to my knowledge, have been kind of volunteer driven at the cycling coalition level, often, like local advocacy level, or sometimes municipal level. So the bike valets are actually a great uh way to get data, uh, really great.

Peter Ladner: 30:00

What kind of data?

Sam Holland: 30:01

Well, for example, in the Victoria we uh bike valet, we've developed a uh system called Tag Tracker. One of our volunteers actually made it, which allows us to check the type of bike and when it comes in and out every day. So we have extremely granular data as to um the types of trips that are being made, when they're being made, like what the weather is that day. Um that kind of data I think would be awesome to have at a provincial-wide level. Um for this, at least the fixed location of LA's, because if you combine them with the cycling counts each day, uh and you look at wider surveys like the census data, you can get a really much better picture of mode shift. Um they're also a really good place for outreach for local cycling groups or just interfacing with normal cyclists. Because with any outreach, um, especially for cities, well actually and outreach for anyone, the you always have the problem of the most engaged people are the ones that are going to engage the most. And those those opinions don't necessarily or or needs they don't necessarily reflect the needs and opinions of the public as a lot at large. Whereas with bike bike valets, you have like this really nice cross-section of everyone who's riding a bike or a scooter or uh got a couple unicycles. Um and that that kind of cross-section and also you like of course it's going to encompass people who don't normally have the time or headspace to engage with um with outreach. So, you know, a classic example is you know, young families, I think, are really underrepresented uh in most cycling outreach because if you if you have like kids and both parents are working, you're busy. Um so that's that's the kind of data as well that we should be looking to collect. And if we had that data, what difference would it make? I mean, I'm a big fan of data for data's sake, but um the that kind of mode shift information, I think, drives funding. Um there was a great comment from I think it was a Camloop city counselor that said, look, I think we spend I mean I'm gonna I think it was a cast in that article, and the quote was something like, we spend sixteen thousand dollars per car parking space um in Camloops. Why are those trips more valuable than bike trips? Shouldn't we be putting a similar amount of funding to all kinds of parking and trips downtown? And that's the kind of thinking that that data enables. Um if you can concretely say this investment has produced you know these this many trips, um, this type of trips, it's benefiting all these different kinds of people, it's way more easy, it's way easier to make a case for funding these kinds of services, funding better infrastructure, um, funding programs that build cities that are more sustainable, that are healthier, uh, and that are more active.

Peter Ladner: 33:09

So I've run out of questions, Sam. Are is there anything you think the world needs to know about bike valets that that we haven't covered?

Sam Holland: 33:18

Oh yes, you mentioned um you did mention looking uh for materials on how to run and run your own bike valet and set it up. Um as throughout the summer, I will be adding to the BC Cycling a coalition bike valet toolkit. And I'm hoping that's gonna be like the place you can go to get that information. Um a lot of the like a couple of I should I shouldn't say a lot, a couple of the groups in BC and in the United States have published small guides that are often older, out of date. Um but I'm just kind of bringing those all together to a place where we can you can just go and see all the resources that are available and um some up-to-date resources, especially. Um so I advise I advise people to go to the BC Cycling Coalition website and check that out.

Peter Ladner: 34:05

Thanks so much, Sam. I hope people do that, and uh I hope that's helpful in more bike valleys being being brought into existence. And I would expect as the the growth in e-bikes and uh cargo bikes increases, that these will become more necessary and popular. And I hope you're involved in making that happen. Thank you. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. It was great to be here. Thanks, Peter. Thanks for listening to Bike Since and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling at BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richards Buell Sutton, ICBC, Moto, and the Bicycle Pro. Visit us at BCcycling.ca

How Powell River pioneered a bike-friendly intersection design that won't completely make sense until the full bike network is built out.

Powell River Sustainability Planner Anastasia Lukyanova talks about the challenges of completing cycling infrastructure in stages. 

And the pending construction of an off-road multi-use path from the community centre to the high school. 

And how some drivers just don't get safe streets around schools.

Release date: April 10, 2024

The City of Penticton gained infamy when its City Council tried to ban discussion of bike lanes until 2026.

A Penticton councillor's political about-face almost stopped bike lanes, but a clever amendment and determined advocates kept them going.

Matt Hopkins, Urban Cycling Director for the Penticton and Area Cycling Association, tells us how four friends and their farmers' market bike valet kick-started cycling improvements in Penticton.

And now the 6.5 km lake-to-lake route is soon to be completed.

Release date: March 05, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to BikeSense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today I'm talking with Matt Hopkins, who's the Urban Cycling Director for the Penticton and Area Cycling Association. And we called Matt because we read somewhere that Penticton Council had passed a motion to ban discussion even of separated bike lanes until 2026. That got my attention. But before we get to that, I'd just like to start on a slightly higher note and uh say, welcome, Matt, and uh glad to have you with us. Thanks for having me, Peter. Thanks for reaching out to me. I appreciate it. And just to say that I've been to Penticton. I've ridden in the Grand Fondo several times. It's a wonderful town for riding in. And of course, it's the home of the Iron Man Canada. Is it still happening? I know it was off and on, and is it back on again?

Matt Hopkins: 1:20

It is. Yeah, it it is. It's back in Pentikton. I mean, we've had issues with weather and smoke and things, but and um it did get canceled this past year, if I'm not mistaken, due to wildfires and in the area. But it is back in uh a matter of speaking, and they intend on having it in future years here in Penticton, absolutely, and uh and a long history of a bit as well.

Peter Ladner: 1:42

Do you know the date that it will be on this year?

Matt Hopkins: 1:46

You know, I don't have it offhand. It's usually the very last weekend in August. Um, so it's it's right around the end of the summer, is is typically when it happens.

Peter Ladner: 1:57

And that would involve the the Iron Man is 180k ride. Is that is that what it is?

Matt Hopkins: 2:04

That's right. Yes, there's uh there's a full marathon of running, and they're in the water in Okanagan Lake for quite a while. I don't know, that might be a couple kilometers.

Peter Ladner: 2:14

Well, I also wanted to just say that the city of Pentikton, if you go onto their website, is very proud of their cycling infrastructure. And uh here's a quote: whether you're looking for some intense training or leisurely touring, Pentikton can offer you the ride of your life. And so I was getting a little bit of cognitive dissonance when I was reading this and thinking about your council's work. But tell me the work that you've done with the cycling association and some of the successes that you've had first.

Matt Hopkins: 2:47

Sure. So I um a little bit of my history here is I moved to Penticton with my wife um from Vancouver. We moved here around the end of 2014. And uh living in Vancouver, I could go into the history, but I got really used to riding my bike in Vancouver. I'd ride my bike to work over the Burard Street Bridge, get to work. My my wife used to ride from 7th in Cyprus to St. Paul's Hospital every day. So we I was used to riding a bike for a lot of different things in Vancouver. And moving here in sort of the start of 2015, it was very quickly I came here without a car, and just the idea of getting from where I was staying to the grocery store was crazy. I mean, it was just I was just not used to riding a bike in those types of conditions. So, you know, how that sort of manifests itself, I didn't have a history in cycling advocacy, but when I started here and started asking questions, I mean, you live in a small enough community that I can you can get in touch with the mayor. I mean, I remember sending an email to the mayor, a gentleman by the name of Andrew Jacobite at the time, and kind of trying to figure out what is going on with the cycling infrastructure here and why isn't there any? And um, so so that led me to um basically, you know, towards I think the end of start of 2018, a few of my friends got in a room and we kind of tried to figure out what we can do to move the idea of cycling infrastructure forward in Pentick. And a group of four people, we really didn't have any influence. I mean, we had no one on council, we didn't, we were just four people that didn't have a lot of influence on public policy. And one thing that we came to is we thought, why don't we start a bike valet at our farmers market? I mean, you know, that was another thing that I was used to in Vancouver. So essentially, four of us started uh a bike valet at the farmers market here every Saturday and start of 2018, and that's sort of where where the advocacy started and sort of where the snowball started to happen, sort of packed that snowball and started pushing it down the hill, I guess was the the turning point.

Peter Ladner: 4:50

Well, interesting you mentioned that because I I'm gonna put a plug in for the BC Cycling Coalition. We're about to uh administer a province-wide bike valet award grant, a granting um giving money to community organizations that put these bike valets together on the understanding that bike valets can trigger people to take a bike when they otherwise would have taken a car. Was that your experience at your bike valet?

Matt Hopkins: 5:18

Oh, 100%, 100%. I mean, we went, you know, we started and we would go to this far. I'd go to the farmer's market. I mean, it's very popular for any of the listeners who've been to Pentecostin. And um, you know, we'd see seven, eight, nine, ten bikes, and we just came with a few racks and a couple of people. And, you know, one week we had 10, the next week we had 20. You know, by the middle of the summer, we're parking 100 bikes a week. So it was such a simple, powerful thing that a few people could do without the influence of of um of being able to influence street design and things, that the uh the example of the bike valet was such a powerful thing in terms of um, I know we're gonna probably speak more about our Lake to Lake bike route, but it was really the example for us of build it and they will come. And you know, before that time, people would say to me, Why would why would we build a bike lane or why would we build bike facilities? Nobody rides a bike. And so it it really, I guess it got it did a few things. It showed that people wanted to use their bicycle for transportation because once we sat there and we had myself and a friend of mine sitting there every week watching people's bikes, we saw the amount of people coming down on bikes flourish. Um, but it also it also galvanized support for the idea of moving forward or the the political support for some all ages and abilities facilities. And it got together people um that had that interest. And, you know, I think also too, one thing that really stuck with me that first year is how many people not only told me about um their experiences of getting uh their bike stolen, but getting hit on their bike or you know, being a victim in a crash or someone not seeing them on their bike. And so that really stuck with me as something that was so powerful because I've that's never happened to me, but I can appreciate getting hit on your bicycle and what that feels like and the and the the psyche to want to get out on your bike again, so and the barriers that that brings for folks. So I think those were some of the early experiences that really stuck with me from our bike valet.

Peter Ladner: 7:33

So you mentioned the lake to lake route. Uh tell us about that. Is that something that this particular group worked on? Uh, did it get picked up by your local council at some point?

Matt Hopkins: 7:43

That's exactly right. So, what happened, Peter, is after our year, we did uh 2018, we did the uh bike valet at the farmers market. I think we operated it around 20 times, we probably parked a thousand bikes. And so the start of, you know, we've been talking with folks at the city. Like I said, I sent an email to the mayor the years previous, had started discussions with uh city staff, uh politicians about our intentions. And one thing that we we found out is this is before my time in Pentikton, but Penticton basically passed a bike plan in 2012. Uh basically an idea of a bunch of connected routes that they would lay out over the city map. And, you know, when they tried to start implementing these things, there was a lot of pushback, there wasn't any political support, there wasn't anyone uh like a cycling advocacy group really pushing this forward. So, you know, towards the end of 2018, we pitched a council and said, hey, look at the success of this bike valet. You should be starting this all ages and abilities route as this was part of the 2012 bike plan. We think there should be a lake-to-lake route that goes through the middle of Penticton, that's linear, uh, and that supports um, you know, all ages and abilities and to form sort of a spine of a network. So, you know, we asked for that, them studying that again, and also just additional bike racks all around Pentikton because you know, we found so many people talking to us about their experiences parking bikes in Pentikton and getting bikes stolen. So even just simple rocks that needed to be installed all over Pentikton. So start of 19, that was sort of when the lake to lake got back on the table here in Pentikton from a political standpoint. And um, it was from uh a pitch that we made at a committee the whole meeting, end of 2018, start of 2019.

Peter Ladner: 9:40

For those people who are not familiar with the geography, can you just describe from what lake to what lake and how far is that? And it goes through right through the center of Pentikton?

Matt Hopkins: 9:49

So Penticton is between two lakes. The one end, the north end of Penticton is Okanagan Lake, the south end of Pentikton is Skahaw Lake, and it's a really pretty much a flat bike ride between the two lakes. It's probably about six kilometers. It might be a little bit less, is the Crowflies, six, six and a half, somewhere in that range. So it's really an area that many, many people would be able to get from one end of town to the other on a bicycle. Um, but the engineering of the roadways is just such that it's not comfortable for, you know, what does Gil Pen Penelosa say? Like, unless you're 30 and athletic. Like that was the only types of people that would be happy riding a bike from one end of town to the other. And and we'd had we'd had some, I don't know if I call it infrastructure, but we had we did have a bike lane that went from one end of town to the other through a street called Government Street that's a a busy arterial um with paint and it was some dedicated space, but no protection. And it was really a circuitous route, like it went around a lot of the main amenities of Pentikton. It was uh almost like a little bit like a ring road. So what we were really focused on is something that is straight, that gets you through the middle of Penticton and connects with amenities, grocery stores, malls, the doctor's office, things like that.

Peter Ladner: 11:12

Terrific. Well, keep an eye out for those bike valet grants that we'll be administering over the next year. And uh it sounds like you're a prime candidate for getting one, having a proven record of it.

Matt Hopkins: 11:24

You know, I appreciate that, Peter, but I should tell you is that after five years, we've passed our our bike valet off to the city, and the city is going to fund it and run it more often. So basically, what happened is we got I got to the end of last year, and I'd done it for five years. We had a couple of staff. We wanted to make the thing bigger. Like it, I want it to be at our Pentick and V's hockey games, I want it at our stadium for any of the concerts, I want it at Peach Fest every night. Uh, the issue for us was funding, and it's funny as you say. And I looked at, of course, I just copy everything that I learned when I lived in Vancouver, but I looked at the folks in Vancouver that started, and they gave me this beautiful um guidebook when I started, even just down to things like where to buy bike racks. It was amazing. But anyway, I know that their business model was obviously they go to BC Place or something, and BC Place pays them because it's$40 to park and people ride a bike. Well, my view is that in Penticton, we couldn't offer uh as a business, no one would pay us enough to pay our staff because the city floods the market with parking everywhere. Like there's just too much parking, it's too cheap. Um, and so it there isn't that intrinsic value. So basically, I said to the city is that, hey, you guys are spending so much money on all these parking lots, you spend nothing on bike parking. Like, why don't you take this bike valet? I'll give you all our supplies and offer it more. And so it was shocking, but they did. So, what they're gonna do is they're gonna run it with their environmental sustainability folks. So they have like a little environmental sustainability outreach group, um, usually like summer co-op students. And so they're gonna take our bike valet to all their events. So they're gonna run all the events at our what that we did at the farmers market, and they're gonna take it to Peach Fest, and they're gonna take it to other, many of the other festivals and things here in Penticton this coming year. So, you know, you talk about like things to be excited about. Like the idea that I sat there in the city of Pentikton meeting with the general manager of infrastructure, and I pitched this, and she said, Yeah, we'll do that. That's a great idea. I it was shocking, but it happened, and here we are. So um I I mean I could talk about Bike Valet for a year straight and probably not take a breath, but that's it's exciting. I mean, you know, to see to see this thing grow and uh and um yeah, it's amazing. So that's where we're at with Bike Valet.

Peter Ladner: 14:01

So let's fast forward to today. You had the plan, um, it's that you you had a route, and how how much is built out now? Where does it stand now?

Matt Hopkins: 14:13

Yeah, so so this was so they probably went through a year and a half of um engagement, and the city council of the day, this was towards the end of 2020, I believe, made it made a decision and they approved the Lake to Lake route. Now, the devil is in the details, and so what happened with the route is for funding reasons, they decided not to build it all at one time. They decided to have it in four phases. Um, and the really the main reason the the council of the day decided that was to essentially make the route building as inexpensive as possible, and they were able to apply for grants, and because the the route essentially was almost and still is in a in a four-year period, always almost in a shovel ready or construction phase, they were going to be constantly able to apply for grants. So answer your question, they started the route building down at the north end of Pentikton on Okanagan Lake and through the downtown. They've gone all the way uh north through the downtown of Pentikton uh and basically to a street called Kinney Avenue. So I would say it's two-thirds done. Um, and the last section is set to be complete this year in 2024. So, you know, it's taken, it's unbelievable, kind of unfortunately, you know, looking at how long some of these things take. And I go back to those times of, you know, sitting there at this bike valet in 2018 six years ago, and and we are going to get that project finished, but it's certainly taken some time.

Peter Ladner: 15:48

I will refrain from commenting on the fact that no road project has ever been built in sections where one part of the road is there and then we wait for a while and then build the next section. But leave that aside. Now we get to the point where this uh uh some one of your counselors uh apparently I'm gonna get you to get this right, but counselor Boltby, I'm gonna name her, call her out. She said, let's not spend the money. We've got and I mean there are legitimate tax issues in every municipality. I've been a city councilor, I know what that's about, but she felt that uh we should save some money, and this would be the way to save it. And I just want to quote something that she was quoted as saying in the newspaper the overwhelming sentiment is that bike lanes have not been good for our community, and there is no appetite to see them expanded at this time. So what impact did her decision have or her motion have, and is that correct?

Matt Hopkins: 16:52

Well, I mean I guess luckily for us, number one, her motion failed. Um it failed four to four or I guess four votes to three. And what was the motion exactly? The the mo the her motion was to um basically not finish the bike route. So again, I go back to what I was saying earlier about this bike route is a vision of a lake-to-lake route. Okay, it was approved. Then the council went and said, yeah, we approve it, but we're gonna build it in in sections, kind of like you referenced before. So before Councillor Boltby was in power, they built three out of four sections of this bike route. And as you said, it's it's a vision of an entire route. So uh one of the things that um that frustrated me as an advocate, I think, and part of her motion, if you if you look at what she was saying in the paper in that time, is not only, I mean, I can speak to the the interest of this cycling facility as a whole, but her even her idea of at that time she was talking about wanting numbers on how many people are using it, and and she's was talking about, you know, before we finish this thing, we should really look and see how many people are actually using it. And of course, uh, someone like me, that drives me absolutely nuts because we never had a vision of a route that is partly completed, you know, and and so I I think um to me it was in bad faith.

Peter Ladner: 18:20

I am reminded of the the old saying that uh why should we build a bridge across that lake? There's nobody swimming showing that they needed to get across, so we obviously don't need a bridge.

Matt Hopkins: 18:30

Yeah, that's right. So, so you know, and and and I think so that was bothersome to us. And you know, it I guess it started something, and and I I don't doubt that as a politician, um, you know, I'm not a politician, so I don't maybe understand it as well, but there's certainly people in the community, there's no doubt, that don't want this facility, don't like it, and it's a hot button issue, and it has been, unfortunately. So if you're a politician, it can be good for you politically to take a side on an issue like this for political reasons. It helps uh Councillor Boltby. I mean, she's got a lot of press out of it. I mean, you and we're talking to you right now, Peter, from Vancouver. So, you know, it it it that's been challenging. I I think the the last thing I would I would say about the there's no appetite for the route. I I think to me that's farcical. Um, you know, and now we have route data, even from even from like essentially, like I said, it's a two-thirds finished bike route. It's a it's a it's a house being built with just a foundation, and we're already seeing some nice usage of our route. And and I talked to uh CBC about this a couple months ago, but I mean, at you know, at at the at the corner of Eckert and Martin Street, which is kind of at the end of tail end of our downtown, we've had a 99,000 people that went through through the bike route in 2023, and some of the other counters, you know, we've had 60,000, 70,000 people go through. So I think that's nice that we're finally starting to see some of that on the on the usage side. Um that that's been helpful. I I think the other thing too, and the other thing too that that I'll gonna touch on that I don't think the council realizes and that is important to me. And you know, when I started doing cycling advocacy and I was riding my bike across the Burard Bridge, I was someone who was living in Vancouver, I was in my 20s, I wasn't making a lot of money, I certainly didn't own a car. There was it was really important for me to use a bicycle because I could save$110 on my transit pass. And so, you know, I look in Pentikton, and obviously I'm a little bit older now and doing a little better personally, but I still remember those times. And I think you look in Pentikton and you go, the median household income here is$17,000,$18,000 below the provincial average, and the rents are extremely high and housing costs are high. It's a cost of living issue that unfortunately is not being addressed. And I think it perhaps that comes from a place of privilege of folks that have never had to struggle or have always been able to afford owning a car, but it's really, really expensive. And and so that's something that I think about constantly.

Peter Ladner: 21:25

Well, in fairness to Councillor Bolpey, uh uh again, having been a politician, if there are people in the community who feel that way, it's fair fair for her to be representing them. They should be represented on council. But the question is whether the reasons for decisions are valid or just uh a way to foment anger and division. And I think I was at a conference this morning talking about EVs and all the money into subsidies and the charging infrastructure. And that is another affordability issue. The same conference they said the biggest issue for young people thinking to move to a town is affordability, way more than anything else. And I think the affordability of cycling is often overlooked. It's seen to be something frivolous or recreational, but as you say, for some people, it's a way of it's a it's their way to get around and save money and and survive in the world. And then of course they should be safe if they're trying to survive.

Matt Hopkins: 22:21

Yeah, I exactly. And and um, you know, I mean, you look at the the uh you know, a good segment of the folks uh that are riding bikes right now, it's it's not to make some sort of political statement or an environmental movement, it's about being able to get from point A to point B and how can they do that effectively and inexpensively, and I think it's it's such an incredible tool for that.

Peter Ladner: 22:47

Now, I also read that the motion uh without I guess getting into the weeds on this thing, the motion uh was specific that there there would be no more discussion about bike lanes with a concrete barrier separating them from traffic, but you've managed to build some bike lanes since then, grade separated, which unfortunately turned out to be way more expensive, but they don't have the barrier, so they don't break the rule. Is that correct?

Matt Hopkins: 23:14

Yeah, so so essentially what has happened is there's been there's been two different motions to stop the bike lane. The first one I talked about was probably about a year ago, wanted to stop it at Kinney Avenue, not move south. Then the one that you're referring to, um Counselor Boltby brought a motion about literally not talking about bike lanes till, like you said, 2026. And yes, so since that time, um basically what happened is that in that discussion, so Councillor Boltby brought a motion forward saying no discussions of bike lanes until 2026. That motion in the council got massaged to no uh bike lanes with concrete barriers. And so it was so I mean is that's okay. As crazy as that sounds. So you're right, Peter, in that shortly after that, there was a project to uh rework a street called Eckert Avenue. So, I mean, you'd be familiar with these in Vancouver, your time as a counselor. They have a bunch of underground services that need to be fixed. They got to go in, dig up the road, anyways. When they go to fix, when they go to replace that street, they build it to a higher standard, a safer standard, a more of a complete street. So Eckert Avenue is going to get rebuilt with the grade separated bike lanes because that's not a quote unquote concrete barrier. And that's an important uh street for us because that route, that facility, it's an east-west route. Uh, it will connect directly into our north-south lake to lake bike route. And Eckert Avenue connects also directly with the Penticton High School, as well as a connection to the KBR Trail. So you could connect from our Lake to Lake route via uh this Eckert Avenue, which is going to be finished in 2024, and ride your bike out the KBR out to Kelowna.

Peter Ladner: 25:17

That'd be the Kettle Valley Trail.

Matt Hopkins: 25:19

Yes, exactly.

Peter Ladner: 25:20

Yeah. Well, it sounds like, in spite of it all, you're you're making some progress. Has there been any upsurge in support for your side since this controversy erupted?

Matt Hopkins: 25:33

You know, I that's a very that's a good question. I think, you know, I would say yes. I mean, I think we're buoyed, like I said, by the fact that we've had a count the cities had counters on their routes on our bike lake to lake route, and now we're seeing lots of people use it. You know, the one thing I would touch on about advocacy is um, you know, we're a small bike club, you know, that mostly has a history in uh mountain bike trail maintenance. I mean, I came on four or five years ago with this interest, and the directors and the president at the time really encouraged me to sort of move forward and with this the backing of the club. Um, but I I think we're not really necessarily um in the best position to, you know, fight endlessly with counselor counselors that have an endless amount of time to focus on these. I mean, we certainly had a tremendous push, you know, at the end of 2020 and through sort of a year and a half public engagement period to get this thing approved. That was huge. But for us to constantly fight for every single motion, it's it's it's not the easiest thing for us to do. Like, I'll give you an example. Like this thing where Councillor Boltby originally about a year ago wanted to stop the progress of the bike route, you know, that came out in a council brief that was came out on a Friday afternoon, and there was gonna be a vote on her motion on Tuesday. I mean, we we're a small bike club, you know, with one halftime employee. So it it's tough, it's been tough for us to fight some of these things and sort of put our best foot forward. But I I agree with you 100% in that, you know, our Lake to Lake route is gonna be done this year. That is, it really is gonna be an incredible achievement. I mean, I I think of I guess I go back to myself and my experience riding in Vancouver and how I started. And, you know, I think about the Berard Bridge, right? And I think, man, people before me that got involved and and moved that thing forward, and there's a bike lane on the Barard Bridge, like that's why I'm here today talking to you. So I think of that myself, and I think of five years down the road in Pentecost, and what this thing's done, and people can get places, and the um, you know, I think that's when for us the dominoes start to fall and and you know, we build bigger and better and more.

Peter Ladner: 27:56

Well, Matt, you've you've talked about the Briard Bridge. When it was proposed originally, people said, who will ride their bike over there? There's nobody riding their bike. It is now considered to be the busiest bike lane in North America. So I'm looking forward to the Penticton route becoming the biggest, uh, most popular route in the interior of BC because as you say, with the Kettle Valley Rail connection and your all your major cycling tourism events, which I would assume would have the support of your wine industry and your tourism industry and your chambers of commerce, I I think that's right. You're gonna get through this thing, and I think the work that you've been doing is really gonna be rewarded.

Matt Hopkins: 28:35

Yeah, I I think so too, Peter. I mean, we're we're really, really proud of it. I mean, I, you know, I and you or or other folks would have a better idea of this. And you know, you see other things that are going on in and around BC, and you you see what's going on. Like I go to Victoria probably once or twice a year, and it's just amazing to see what's going on there. And I think things like that really give you um, you know, a lot of hope. And, you know, for us, I mean, I don't know, maybe there are other places, but for us to have a route that's gonna go from one end of town to the other is I I really do think it's gonna be transformative. It's gonna obviously take some time, but we just seeing the finish of it now is is so incredibly rewarding.

Peter Ladner: 29:18

And another thing that you haven't mentioned, but I am sure is going to happen, is that there will be a reduction in congestion if kids can ride their bikes to school on a safe route. They don't have to be sh taken there by their parents in a car and jamming up the roads. And I think people will see that benefit too.

Matt Hopkins: 29:34

I I and you know, that's so as a cycling advocate advocate, I look about, you know, try to think what is my next project going to be. And I I think about safe routes to school all the time. And, you know, now I'm a parent and I have a you know, I have a son in grade one, and I look at that, uh you know, I live on basically across the street from his school, but I look at that school and there's 125, 130 kids there, and I only see two or three bikes in that rack, and that's That's I go, that that's not right. The the adults in the room need to fix this. And so, yes, I agree with you in that that I mean, when you see that, it's I mean, it's it's transformative. And and I agree, that will certainly help us get kids moving, get people active for sure.

Peter Ladner: 30:20

Well, fantastic. And uh I hope you have the same success with uh safe streets to school and whatever else new one you take on.

Matt Hopkins: 30:28

Yeah, you know, I appreciate that.

Peter Ladner: 30:30

And I look forward to coming up and and trying this stuff out. I gotta say, as a as a one as a potential tourist, the the idea that you have those bike routes there, that's appealing to me. I think, oh good, I can go and noodle around on my bike and not get run over by a truck.

Matt Hopkins: 30:43

You know, when it's funny you say that, because you touched on that earlier, and one thing that I heard from I've met with the tourism board here previously about these ideas, and one thing they're still using and that they love, and this guy that runs the tourism board was talking about is they have this whole campaign about fuel-free. And he has this whole vision when people come, they put their car keys down and they don't touch them until they leave town. And so they've been using that for a few years. And to hear you say that, I mean, that sort of it does resonate, and I understand that because this uh gentleman, his name's Tom Tishik, and he uh he really believes in that and they're talking about it every year. So uh I think that's gonna even be better now that people can get right down to Skaha Lake Park from the downtown end of Penticton. So yeah.

Peter Ladner: 31:24

I saw that fuel-free Penticton, foot, pedal, and paddle. There you go. So that's it. Yeah. Let's do it all. Well, Matt, we're gonna leave it there. I just want to put in a plug for the uh the active transportation summit that the BC Cycling Coalition is doing in in partnership with the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, June 18th and 19th in New Westminster. And I'm pretty confident that we will have a session on safe routes to school because as we've thought about advocacy, we thought if you had to start somewhere, as you obviously do, everybody does, um, who can argue against safety and health for kids and clean air and lack of congestion and danger for traffic outside schools? So go for that. Uh, we'll be there with you. And uh thank you so much for telling us your story and all the best. Thanks, Peter.

Matt Hopkins: 32:16

Yeah, thanks so much for reaching out to me.

Peter Ladner: 32:21

Thanks for listening to BikeSense and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. The BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richard Muell Sutton, ICBC, Moto, and the Bicycle Pro. Visit us at BCcycling.ca.

To get involved contact Matt at  urban.director@bikepenticton.com

What would happen if the BC government spent as much on active transportation as it is does on one tunnel crossing?  Answer: Castlegar would have a full bike and pedestrian network, and New West would be Copenhagen.

Johnstone makes a passionate case for why this level of spending is needed to meet BC’s CleanBC transportation goals, which would also solve the "congestion problem". He also explains why road pricing (to finance transit and active transportation) seems to be the eternal third rail of BC politics, even though people really want bike lanes and transit -- especially the Rad e-bike moms of New West!

Release date: February 07, 2024

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to BikeSense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Patrick Johnstone, who's the mayor of New Westminster. And just before we get into talking with him, I want to say that we work on it, we're going to cover what I consider to be the biggest question in active transportation in BC today, which is how do we get the funding for doing it the way everybody seems to think we have to do it, but we're nowhere near doing it. So how do we cross that gap? But first, welcome Patrick. Thank you, Peter. Glad to be here. Patrick, you are not just the mayor, but you're also on the TransLeak Mayor's Council. You're the vice chair of the Climate Action Committee at Metro Vancouver. And I know that you were born and raised in the Kootenis. Where were you born? Where were you raised? Castlegar, beautiful sunny Castlegar. And did you really come to New Westminster because it has great transit?

Patrick Johnstone: 1:20

This time, yes. I mean, I think uh when I was 18 years old, I came down and rented a really crappy little apartment right by City Hall here, uh, you know, as a teenager trying to find my fortune in the big city, um, still looking for it. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think at the fact that it was two blocks from a skytrain station was part of my decision making at the time because I was working in Burnaby. And then when we, and I moved around a bit, went to college and stuff, and um, when we came back and settled in New Westminster back in the early 2000s, um, absolutely, transit access was a major part of it. The fact that we were uh two blocks away again from uh from a skytrain station, and we wanted, you know, New Westminster is one of those cities that has incredible transit service, and it's great that and it's great to know that you're 20 or 20 minutes from anywhere by a skytrain uh in New Westminster. That's a huge addition. We didn't realize until we moved here that actually there was so much going on in New Westminster, we didn't actually have to use that skytrain so much. But uh yeah, it's that's a big reason why I'm here.

Peter Ladner: 2:16

And just for clarification, 20 minutes from anywhere doesn't include Castlegar.

Patrick Johnstone: 2:20

No, it does not include CastleGar. The transit access to CastleGar is still a little limited.

Peter Ladner: 2:24

And I loved in your bio that you're you told your wife, if we're gonna put down a down payment on the house, you better be prepared. I'm gonna get involved in the community. And by 2013, you were a citizen of the year. Then you were on council for a couple terms. Did you get into politics because of your passion for active transportation?

Patrick Johnstone: 2:42

I think so. Yeah. I think between um environmental activism and active transportation activism, those are the things that really got me involved in the community, got me involved in, you know, it got me in front of council, asking for things. It got me involved in that way in the community. Um, I was doing a lot of blogging and a lot of as people did in the early 2000s. And I was talking a lot about um, I mean, I think it came from environmental activism and active transportation, and then it became into its natural place, which is urbanism, talking about urban areas and talking about how urban areas need to be developed in a way that makes them more livable.

Peter Ladner: 3:16

So now that you're on the other side of the of the desk or the podium or whatever it is, what have you done? Oh boy. Just some high. What are some of the what's what's something you're particularly proud of or you think has a has had a particular impact for the promotion of active transportation?

Patrick Johnstone: 3:33

Well, just recently in the last couple of years, um, we've I brought a motion to council a couple of two years ago now to to really ramp up our active transportation network in New Westminster, recognizing that we are not keeping up with some real leadership cities like Victoria on this. And after having a talk with the mayor of Victoria, um, I sort of talked about how uh the former mayor, Lisa Helps, how she managed to accelerate a lot of action in Victoria around active transportation. So um through a motion at council, we got a plan to get a um uh what we're calling an active transportation network plan. We're actually developing, instead of building bike lanes, we're actually developed a full network for the city. What will it look like if everybody has is within 400 meters of an active transportation route and has an active transportation route getting to all of their destinations?

Peter Ladner: 4:20

Did you say 40 meters or 400? 400 meters.

Patrick Johnstone: 4:24

400 meters. So so you know, every every fourth road is an active transportation route. And um and then through that, we are now getting that into the capital plan. So we now have a plan to get that active transportation network into our five-year capital plan. So we actually have a timeline to get it built. Instead of just doing one-off bike lanes projects, we're actually planning all of those projects around a network plan that is funded. Um, that's I think a big step for a city.

Peter Ladner: 4:49

Well, interesting you mentioned that because uh one of the projects of the BC Cycling Coalition is it's something we call Safe Roots Now. And we are mapping and tracking the active transportation plans in municipalities around the province. And many of them have these plans. And the one back of the envelope calculation we've managed to do so far is to roughly add up the 54 communities, which is not it's about half the province that we've tracked, and the total budget required to implement their transportation plans, their active transportation plans, is around$2.5 billion. The amount of money that the province is giving this year for active transportation infrastructure municipality is 20 million. I'm not too good with all my decimals, but that's sort of in the nature of 1% or 0.1% or something of what is needed. Um, I was attracted to talking to you when you speculated, well, what if we had numbers of that magnitude, two and a half million, a billion for active transportation. Tell me your vision and just imagine what some of the smaller municipalities would look like were that to happen.

Patrick Johnstone: 6:00

Well, where I came into this is, I mean, I obviously appreciate the fact the province has put uh I think it's$116 million over the last 20 years into active transportation given directly to cities, uh local governments to build active transportation, and they've ramped that up now to$20 million a year. So I appreciate that funding. I do. It's really it's great and it's important for us. It's a baseline for us to get our work done. But um, when I compare that to the Highway 91, Highway 17 upgrade that's being completed right now, that single transportation upgrade is$260 million. The Highway 1 up interchange at Lyn Canyon cost the province almost$200 million. Like this, the scope, the magnitude of spending on projects like that compared to the active transportation budget is is off scale. It's it's not the same. And I got to thinking about the$4 billion project to replace the Massey tunnel. Um and I'm not gonna speak for or against that project. It doesn't matter, you know, transportation projects are important, they're an important investment in the province. But I tried to imagine what would do, what would happen if MOTI, the Ministry of Transportation, committed$4 billion to active transportation over five years. The amount of money they're putting into solving a single traffic bottleneck, which is an important traffic bottleneck, but if they spent the amount of money on that amount of money as well on active transportation province wide, that would be a gigantic, that would be a mode shift for the entire province. Um thinking about four billion dollars, the opportunity cost of that, that is eight hundred dollars for every resident of British Columbia. So if they gave that to local governments on a population basis, that's$70 million for the community of New Westminster. That would be that is my entire active transportation network plan, plus um significant increases to other in other safety things like improving our sidewalks and improving our our our lights and our crossings and everything. It would be transformative to New Westminster. Think what Sanit could do with$100 million, or Castlegar, my hometown, with for$7 million. You know, they could Castlegard could build a full bike and pedestrian network in their city. Um, you know, Vancouver would be Copenhagen with that kind of funding level. Like that's just the way to just it it would be that big. And it sounds like a pipe dream, but recognize this is the amount of money they're spending on a single traffic backup. Like that, like the scope should not be out of, should not be, it should we shouldn't be thinking about that as a crazy amount of spending. We should think about that as this is what we're spending to address a need, a recognized need. And I would go so far as to say I haven't seen the clean BC, the um the what they're calling the clean transportation action plan, which the province is going to be putting out imminently to address um how the transportation mode is going to be addressed under Clean BC. But I'm going to suggest that they are not going to meet their Clean BC goals for transportation mode shift unless they invest at that level. This would be the one tool they could use that could actually get the province, that the province could apply that would actually get them to their mode shift goals for Clean BC.

Peter Ladner: 9:10

Let's talk a little more about that. The goals, as I understand them, are a 25% reduction in vehicle kilometers traveled between 2017 and 2030. So we're about kind of halfway there. Are we 15% down from uh the shift already? I don't think so.

Patrick Johnstone: 9:29

Oh no, no, no, no. We we are i it's actually going up. It's actually VKT is going up right now. And um that is an interesting target, mostly because I don't know what the tools, what tools the provincial government has to make that target happen. Um you know, historically, if you look around the world, there's only a couple of examples of that kind of VKT reduction happening. And I think one would be the Copenhagen model, which is massive investment in public transit, massive investment in active transportation, and road pricing in order to incent that move. Or the other model would be Detroit, which is you completely haul about your city. You know, you reduce your population in half, you reduce your VKT. I don't think we want to do the Detroit model. Um I think the and I think the um the Copenhagen model is difficult for us in British Columbia because road pricing is apparently the third rail of public policy in in British Columbia.

Peter Ladner: 10:27

Aaron Powell Also known as congestion pricing or um bit distance-based taxes and so on.

Patrick Johnstone: 10:33

Or call the or call it bridge tools, if you want to call it. That's the model. But I mean I think there's the political decision has been made on that. That's why I don't think that's a tool available to us.

Peter Ladner: 10:42

I think this is a really important thing to explore because, in my uh estimation, there's something built into the DNA of our current NDP government where they actually won the first election that they got power recently by saying get getting rid of all the tolls on the Portman Bridge, and they they out out uh rewarded the suburban drivers compared to the then BC Liberals. And I suspect there's somewhere in their thinking they think we don't dare offend these suburban drivers because they are our swing vote power brokers. Do you think that's true? Where will we when will we come to the point where the excitement about AT and transit surpasses that about more cars?

Patrick Johnstone: 11:25

Oh, I don't know when that's gonna happen. Um I will I mean it's not just the NDP. I don't think there's any party in in British Columbia who's ready to step up and say it's time for us to adopt road pricing. I think it's political, I think it's political for third rail right now. I don't think it's viable. This is a challenge for us as we as um we are going through a long discussion at Translink right now about how we're gonna fund the transit system uh in a sustainable way. And I think that with that being off the table, we have to come find other more creative uh funding sources.

Peter Ladner: 11:54

Um But let's go back to the supply of AT infrastructure. You you said investments in transit and and active transportation. What do you think are the most telling um points that would garner political support for that, particularly outside the lower mainland, where let's be honest, everybody kind of needs a vehicle or thinks they do, and uh transit is hard to finance and justify the cost of, and AT has to go alongside highway shoulders, which is difficult.

Patrick Johnstone: 12:28

Um, I don't think it's a political I don't think it's a challenge with the public. I think that frankly, the governments have to catch up with the public. I think the public wants public transit and they use public transit. When it's available to them and it's reliable and it works, they use it. I live in a city where we have a really, really high mode shift because we have tri-high transit service. Um people knew it our Translink has the highest return to ridership of any transit system in North America after the COVID, uh, after the COVID reductions. Um, we now have more riders than we did before COVID. Like we've actually exceeded. We're over 100% ridership again. But this is people want public transit. And people, and I'll say people also want active transportation. People want um when bike lanes are built, they are used. Go to Victoria and see what what Lisa Helps' network looks like. I know in Vancouver there was a lot of jokes being made about Gregor Robertson's bike lanes, but um, you know, and I'm gonna call them Lisa Helps' bike lanes because they're getting used. I am amazed to go to Victoria now and see that Victoria is catching up to Montreal in how the bike lanes are there, usable, and so people are using them. There is there's getting to be traffic congestion on some of the bike lanes downtown now as people are shifting to that mode. People want these things. People want safe roads, they want safe sidewalks. Um, but like everything else that people want, people don't want to pay for it. And so that's the challenge we have to get by. We have, yeah.

Peter Ladner: 13:56

And yet, if you look at the benefits of a relatively small investment in safe cycling infrastructure compared with the benefits of, say, the large investment in the Linn Valley exchange, I don't know what measurable outcome there is from the Linn Valley one. Is there no more congestion on the North Shore? I don't think so. But if you were to expand bike lanes, I think you'd have quite a quite a direct impact for a lot less money.

Patrick Johnstone: 14:20

Yeah, I don't think that Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure in BC has that magic sauce that no other transportation agency in the world has found. The magic sauce that says if you build highway capacity, it solves congestion. That that's never happened in the history of building roads to solve congestion. Um and I can't wait for someone to find me an example of where it has worked for more than a year or two. Um, building roads causes congestion, that's clear. Um, but we do know that giving people alternatives does help with congestion. If we do simply if we if we achieve that clean the clean BC goal of 25% VKT reduction, that solves congestion. That that fixes it. If we reduce the 20% congestion, isn't caused by um the majority of cars on the road, it's caused by that small percentage of cars on the road that get us past the capacity ability, right? It's that last 10% of cars on the road that cause congestion. If you can reduce VKT by 25%, um that that is the biggest solve of congestion that we could possibly have.

Peter Ladner: 15:23

Do you think that e-bike rebates that stimulate the already growing uh popularity of e-bikes will create enough demand from the kind of people who vote that they would say we need a safe place to ride my our e-bikes?

Patrick Johnstone: 15:41

I think e-bikes, yes. I'm not sure that e-bike rebates are the best use of money. And I'll say I'll tell I'll say why. I think that e-bike takeup will eventually reach a wall where we don't have this infrastructure for safe usage for people to use it. E-bikes are amazing because they open up cycling to people who don't look like me. They open up cycling to older people, to people with who aren't as strong or don't or have uh you know some mobility disabilities. It opens it up to moms who are carrying kids. It opens it up to people who are not comfortable using unsafe road infrastructure. So I would rather the the governments invest that money in building safer infrastructure. Um, and then e-bikes will come. E-bikes will come, and they already are coming. One of the activist groups in our community um are the rad moms. They are literally a group of moms with kids who get around on rad bikes, and they are asking us for better cycling infrastructure in New Westminster because they've discovered how easy it is to get around with active transportation because of their e-bikes.

Peter Ladner: 16:44

Well, that that gets me to this question of uh attracting people to uh whether you can create the demand first or the supply first. Because politically, I've been around when you build a bike lane and there's starting off not too many people on it, and the car drivers go crazy and they say, Why are we spending this money? There's nobody on these bike lanes. Whereas if you had a bunch of pent-up mums with e-bikes, they'd be all over it and you'd fill it up.

Patrick Johnstone: 17:10

Yeah, it has to do with network demand. Again, we have to build these network plans and we have to. We built a pretty expensive bike lane in New Westminster recently in Agnes, on Agnes Street in our downtown. Um, it's beautiful. Uh, we probably overbuilt it a little lot, made it made a lot of public spaces around it, green spaces around it, did a really good job on it. Um, but it doesn't really connect yet to anything at either end. When the Petulo Bridge is done, it will be connected to that. You know, we're building a connection into downtown. And unfortunately, you have to build pieces, right? You have to build pieces at times just because that's what budgets allow. But there has, you're right, it'll never see proper usage until we have a proper network and people can get from where they need to, where they are to where they need to be on the network. We um and again, we don't build roads or railways the way we build bike lanes. We don't build a road for three blocks and then have nothing at either end. Um, that's that's part of the problem with how we think. And this is a little bit of my lessons from talking to Mayor Helps. It was about um I mean, the idea that if you build a block or three blocks of bike lane, you're gonna get pushback from the community because it's a change and people are concerned about change and it impacts the way people normally live their lives. They have to make adjustments. But if you build five kilometers of bike lane, you're gonna get exactly the same amount of pushback. You're not gonna get more. Um, so so build a lot at once. You know, build as much of the network as you can every year instead of just building little pieces because you're because that way um you start to demonstrate the value of it a lot quicker. And um yeah, and it just ends up being easier to build and more politically um supported when you actually build a proper network.

Peter Ladner: 18:54

I want you to cast your mind back to or out to CastleGar and think of the fact that the reason that biking is popular in Copenhagen, let's say, is not because people are virtuous or they want to stop greenhouse gas reductions. It's cheaper, more convenient, and uh a better way to go. It gets you there faster. How can that those attributes be built into an active transportation route in a smaller community?

Patrick Johnstone: 19:23

Oh, that's tough. They've they have built, I mean, Cassagar is an interesting example because it's kind of a one-road town. It's a city, it's one of those cities that has, you know, a main a main street that goes through the length of town. So it's a very long linear town along the river. Um, Columbia. It's called Columbia. And uh, you know, I remember riding my bike up and down that road every day, every day when I was a kid, right? Like that's what that's how I got around when I was young. Um on the sidewalk, of course, beside Columbia, because the road wasn't safe. Um but Castigar has invested actually in a bike lane down the most of the length of Columbia now, and they did get some money from the provincial government, and they've used that to build a bike route along the entire length of Columbia. Um so um the challenge, of course, is yeah, it doesn't reach, it's hard in a small city to fund, to fund building bike routes to all the neighborhoods, um, especially in a city like that that doesn't really have a grid network. It's got a bunch of cluster neighborhoods, you know, stretched along this one long chain. So it's funding. It's really hard funding for a city of 7,000 people to invest um, you know, the kind of money they need to invest to build a proper network, which is why I guess senior government money is important. I think about Powell River is another incredible example. They've got a really big dream to make Powell River a really walkable, really great active transportation community. And they have a great dream and a good plan, but it's really hard for a community that size to fund the kind of networks they need when it's the Ministry of Transportation's got a highway running through the middle of their city, right?

Peter Ladner: 20:53

Well, let's talk about funding. We're now at about 20 million a year. We just you just dreamed about$4 billion a year. We're not we're not gonna get to$4 billion very soon. But don't give up yet, Peter. No, I just said very soon.

Patrick Johnstone: 21:07

Uh okay, okay. I don't think we need four billion dollars a year. I think we need to be four billion dollars over because the cities won't be able to spend that. Of course, of course. Like that needs to be over 10 years or something, and it needs to be something that we say, okay, we're gonna do a one-time big investment.

Peter Ladner: 21:20

But okay, sorry, I'll I'll won't just So if you were the the BC Cycling Coalition or any any active transportation advocate, uh, what would you say if you got an audience with the Ministry of Minister of Transportation? What would you say we want, we need, what's next? What would make sense? What can cities reasonably digest and deliver on right now?

Patrick Johnstone: 21:43

I I think the key to any government advocacy is telling the government that you've got the solution to their problem. And I think that you've got the solution to their problem, which is how do they meet their clean BC goals? How are they going to meet this goal that that frankly they have to meet? You know, like it's not, it's um, you know, COP28 just had its global its global stock take, and we are not making it. And um I the Clean BC plan is ambitious and it's it's it's the kind of thing we need to do as a province. Um I'm very much in support of it, but I don't know what tool they have to get to that goal. And I think that active transportation investment is probably a major, a major piece of that. It may be the entire piece. I mean, if they fund it to the level which they could fund it, um active transportation could be the major piece of that, of that VKT reduction goal.

Peter Ladner: 22:40

How would you recommend cycling advocates um got together, campaigned, framed their ask, whatever they'd have to do from that side, from building up the grassroots support? And you sit on on councils and so on, you maybe see these senior bureaucrats and politicians face to face, but the rest of us are out there waving from the sidelines or from the uh sidewalks. Um, how could we be effectively making an impact and getting towards the goals that we've just been discussing?

Patrick Johnstone: 23:10

Oh, um the the the activist play, I don't know what the activist playbook is anymore in the era of social media. Um it's um I'm I might be the wrong guy to ask because I used to be an activist, but now I'm someone who's being activisted too all the time.

Peter Ladner: 23:24

Okay, so when people are activist to you, what are the what are the messages that work?

Patrick Johnstone: 23:29

Um I think that like to me, I think about the active transportation, like specifically active transportation activism that I've heard. Part of it is um we again, what I said earlier, we have the solution to your problem. You have a problem, you have a goal you're trying to achieve. This is going to help you get to your goal. And I think you should, this is as a tool, and we will help you, and we will support you, and we'll be standing behind you, cheering you when you achieve your goal through these means. Um, the other part with especially I think active transportation um discussions is broadening the tent. A lot of cycling advocates look like me. Uh uh relatively healthy, middle-aged white dudes. Um, that's who we that's what a lot of cycling activism looks like. And I think the rad moms coming, um, you know, um having people with disabilities coming and talking about saying that cycling is actually opens up transportation options to people with to some people with disabilities. Disabilities are obviously a broad spectrum. And there's some disabilities for which cycling actually opens up opportunities for them to get independence and traveling around. There's also challenges, and some bicycling infrastructure causes challenges to some other people with disabilities. So I think, but including a diversity of people in that conversation helps government understand that it's not just um Pat Johnstone and his cycling buddies, it's not just the middle-aged men in LyCra asking for this stuff. In fact, the middle-aged men in lycra aren't asking for this stuff. We'll be riding our bikes whether we get safe infrastructure or not. That we'll we'll do that. We need to um it's the people who are getting on the e-bikes and are discovering active transportation for the first time. Um it's those are the people who we really need to get elevate their voices and and and speak for them.

Peter Ladner: 25:21

It's interesting you mentioned the mums because in our last podcast we had Kate Teshke on, a UBC professor who specializes in safety. And she pointed out that of all the transportation modes, cycling is very gender unequal. There are equal numbers of women and men who walk on the sidewalks and who take buses and who drives, but not cycling. And as you just mentioned, women who are concerned about safety, particularly, would be a useful addition to the to the voice. Another one I want to ask you about is cycle tourism, because that attracts the interest of economic development, people, the hospitality industry, chambers of commerce. Is that a realistic goal for the province that we could become a cycle tourism place and thereby justify investments in AT?

Patrick Johnstone: 26:05

Yes. I think that's, I mean, my own personal life as a middle-aged uh middle-aged man in Lycra, um, I do cycle tourism all the time. So being able to take my bicycle with me and ride in places that I visit is a major part of like what I look for in a destination when I'm traveling. Um, but it's it's but even not even internationally, just thinking about locally and regional uh tourism. Um you want as a business area, when you're attracting people, you want people coming through your business area on bikes. If you're traveling through an area in a car, you're rolling down your window and looking out at it, or you're looking for parking. People who travel through business areas on bicycles stop. They stop for coffee. They stop at the shop that they see as they're going by. They are that's what, and and they have money in their pocket to spend. I mean, that that is kind of, you know, the the the cyclist on the street should be, you should be trying to attract that if you want to have a prosperous business area. This is one of those discussions. I mean, the downtown uh BIA in Vancouver discovered this. Obviously, they were initially very, very resistant to the idea of bike lanes in downtown Vancouver. And then once they arrive, they realize, oh no, this is actually really good for our businesses, and they are one of the biggest advocates for better cycling infrastructure in their community because yeah, that the people on bikes stop and they shop.

Peter Ladner: 27:22

So you've given me an interesting thought here. When I think about cycle tourism, I think about a nice circle route between Vancouver and Power River and Comarch's and back down or whatever. But you're pointing out that there's cycle tourism within communities. And I'm reminded of the Kelowna has a hotel that has uh scooters available for the people who come to that hotel. And they can scoot around town and use the local bike routes just close by. It's not a big long journey.

Patrick Johnstone: 27:48

I mean, the only reason I go to Fort Langley is when I'm riding my bicycle there. I mean, that like that's why and I spend my tour, I spend tourism money in Fort Langley because I ride a bicycle there. You know, I choose, I my the time I spend in Vancouver, our New Westminster's Western suburb, Vancouver, the only time I spend there is when I'm riding my bike through there, right? And that I think so regional and intra-regional cycle tourism should be part of the discussion as well. Absolutely. If we build a bike infrastructure, we build bike highways between our communities in the region, that is actually going to draw people to around to spend money internally.

Peter Ladner: 28:24

Well, I think of the Penticton Fondo, which I've written, and perhaps you have two, where thousands and thousands of people show up and stay and spend money and so on.

Patrick Johnstone: 28:33

Yeah. And Whistler, and the Whistler Fondo is the same in the Valley Fondo. I mean, it's yeah, you see how that that drives local, that drives a ton of money to the local economy.

Peter Ladner: 28:43

Do you think that that attraction also applies to the non-ummal type cyclists and the racing, you know, the fancy bike people? But what about you're just your your average person with an e-bike or a senior who wants to just total around a little bit, take it a bit easier? Are they also customers for cycle tourism? Do you think?

Patrick Johnstone: 29:00

Yeah, that's an interesting idea. I mean, I think maybe the fondo is not the right model for that. I think the fondo specifically appeals to mammals. Um I think that, but I have I took part this year in the ride for the cure in the Fraser Valley, which was uh a two-day cycle tour to raise money for uh for cancer research. And you know, that community that is a diverse and incredible community of people because they're not riding fast. They're riding slow and they're taking time and they're seeing the community and they're doing a community activity together, right? And that's um so I think that type of ridership I think appeals to people on e-bikes, people who are yeah, riding slow and just riding a bike for the fun of it, not to get somewhere.

Peter Ladner: 29:42

Well, Patrick, I've covered pretty much what I wanted to ask you. Is there anything you want to add that you think our listeners would need to know?

Patrick Johnstone: 29:49

No, thank you for doing this. I I guess I would say talk to your MLA. And what would be I guess I mean that that's where the activism starts. Talk to your MLA and say, you know, I can't. about active transportation and I think the province I think the Ministry of Transportation's mandate is to is to make sure that it's built and I think that um I think that the province should be supporting my local government in getting active transportation built in my community. That's if you can send that message to your MLA it matters.

Peter Ladner: 30:18

Thanks so much Patrick this has been fantastic. I love your enthusiasm and uh your success in New Westminster and your vision for a better future rather than just arguing about why people should not have should have to get out of their cars or not.

Patrick Johnstone: 30:33

Rather look at what other what a great life well let me just ask you to just elaborate besides the the convenience of getting around just tell me the other things that happen when people are more active oh I mean of course you um you see your community you meet your neighbors you are healthier like like like never mind the health benefits of just getting around under your own power walking or cycling if you can um or rolling you know however you can get around um under your own power the health benefits of that is are so huge but you meet your community when you drive through a neighborhood you don't get to meet the people who you live near when you walk or roll or cycle through your community you meet your neighbors and that it just builds that's a value that you just can't um you can't put a price on um it adds it just adds active transportation adds to the quality of your life in a way that um cars we we think we think that cars add to the quality of our life and they do in a way um but they also take away they don't give us freedom necessarily they can give us freedom unless we have to rely on them. Anything that you rely on isn't giving you freedom. So I have a car I don't drive it that often I use car share um it's about having options and right now we have a lot of options to drive we don't have a lot of options to get around safely through other modes and that's what I want people to have options to do.

Peter Ladner: 31:59

Let's go to work on it. Thanks so much Patrick wonderful talking to you. Thank you for your time Peter thanks Thanks for listening to Bike Sense and supporting Safe Cycling in BC please subscribe so you don't miss an episode BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling with BC special thanks to our sponsors BC Hydro Richards Buell Sutton ICBC Moto and the Bicycle Bro visit us at bccycling.ca

Is helmet-wearing  the key to safe cycling ? Maybe NOT! Retired UBC Prof in Occupational and Environmental Health, Kay Teschke, is dedicated to researching cycling safety and getting people on bikes. Kay joins Peter to discuss measures and debunk misconceptions about what makes cycling truly safe. Whether it's helmet laws, safe passing distances,  bike lights, or cyclist-pedestrian conflicts — Kay's got the data and she's not afraid to use it.

Release date: December 15, 2023

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Sense, the Beastie Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the FC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Kay Kaski, a retired UBC professor, and we are going to talk about all things related to bike safety. And the great thing when you talk to Kay about bike safety is he can always say, Well, the research shows we have the data that shows XY. So we're not going to be talking about what people like and think and um maybe have hot-headed opinions about. We're going to talk about actual data about what makes a safe route, what is the uh best way to define a safe passing distance, and what she would recommend if she were our legislator, what could be done to make cycling safety. So good morning, Kay. Welcome to the podcast.

Kay Teschke: 1:12

Good morning, Peter. I'm really happy to be here.

Peter Ladner: 1:15

Could you just start by telling us how you got into cycling safety? Because I know you were with uh in occupational environmental health, and then cycling. What happened?

Kay Teschke: 1:26

So true. Um I've always loved cycling, and I cycled to work for most of my career and cycle for holidays and so on. And when my daughter was born, I started to look at the roots in Vancouver a lot differently, which a lot of parents do in our research. It shows that. But anyway, I know that kids have a really difficult time riding in straight lines. And that made me think maybe when I get a little bit more time in my hands after my daughter's older, I'll get into cycling advocacy. And when she was about 10, there was an ad by the Vancouver City Council looking for members of the bicycle advisory committee. And I applied and they accepted me as a member. And when I was on that committee, I started hearing these things that just didn't ring true to me. For example, that you're safer riding on the road rather than on an off-street path, and that you're better riding in the middle of the lane, and lots of things. And since I'm a researcher, I thought, okay, let me look at the literature because lots of times things aren't what you expect when you study them. So I thought I could be wrong, my gut feeling could be wrong. And so when I did the initial literature search, I found that the main problem was that there was very little of good research. And I started to think, well, you know, I'm a researcher, I can see areas for improvement, so why don't I start studying this? And that was the beginning of my career as a bicycling researcher.

Peter Ladner: 3:04

So, as a researcher, can you tell us what is the biggest reason that people do not want to cycle?

Kay Teschke: 3:14

This has been shown in our research and in researchers around the world again and again and again, the biggest fear that people have is about cycling safety, and that kind of fear is mainly riding next to motor vehicle traffic. And it is absolutely the dominant fear, and it's if you ask the people who cycle less, for example, women and also people with kids, that's an even stronger fear, and that's one of the reasons that bicycling is one of the most unequal types of uh transportation. We have equal numbers of people approximately walking, driving, taking transit, but for bicycling in North America, about twice as many uh people cycling are men than women. And that's because women are more fearful uh of traffic.

Peter Ladner: 4:19

Not to say men aren't, but uh well before we get into what can be done about that, how dangerous is it? Are these fears well founded?

Kay Teschke: 4:30

Uh so it is dangerous to more dangerous to be riding in traffic with motor vehicles, but overall bicycling is quite a safe activity. In fact, if you look at fatality data, there uh for example in BC, the last the average over the last five years is about somewhere just under 10 deaths a year. And in fact, bicycling is about as safe as walking. And so most people aren't afraid of walking. And uh so if you think of it that way, that's the best way to think of cycling safety when you think of cycling for transportation.

Peter Ladner: 5:07

Do you have any data on where those deaths occur or what the most dangerous situations or geographical areas are?

Kay Teschke: 5:16

Um the kinds of things that are particularly dangerous are riding uh with on busy streets with uh motor vehicles, riding on rural roads with fast uh motor vehicles or suburban roads with fast uh motor vehicle speeds, riding around heavy vehicles. So those are the things that are most likely when you have a crash that the result can be fatality.

Peter Ladner: 5:47

So these women who fear cycling, women more than men, are actually uh they're they're smart in that they recognize there actually is a danger there. But you're saying sometimes we inflate the danger in our minds. How can we eliminate that danger or reduce it to the point where people are not fearful about riding?

Kay Teschke: 6:10

Well, so that's one of the uh things that we studied a lot was what kind of root types would make people feel more comfortable riding, because you want to feel comfortable when you're getting around, and also what are safer. And it turns out that those things mesh really well. And the most safe route types turn to be turn out to be along busy streets, routes that are physically separated from traffic by a curb or a jersey barrier or by uh a grassy verge, for example, anything that physically separates the people on bikes from the people in motor vehicles, and that really makes a big difference to safety. It's about 10 times safer in that separated uh lane compared to riding in the traffic between parked cars and with no bicycling infrastructure, so that's a huge change. It's also uh safer to ride on um residential streets than uh than on busy streets without any bike infrastructure, and it's also safer to ride on bike paths. Bike lanes are next to uh busy streets, but uh bike paths, I didn't understand what the difference between a bike lane and a bike path was at first, but a bike path is um is like in a park or in a setting where there are no motor vehicles.

Peter Ladner: 7:39

Would that be what we also call multi-use path, the famous MUPS where it's a mix of users, cyclists, pedestrians, dog walkers?

Kay Teschke: 7:49

So multi-use paths um are used in a few different ways, but you can have separate bike paths that have a bike path that's separated from the pedestrian path. And we have that a lot in Vancouver in Vancouver. But in a lot of the suburban areas where they think that there's not as much uh walking or biking, they make a wide path that is for people walking and biking together. And the idea is that people will sort things out as they're um going along. And some of those multi-use paths in the suburban areas are um in park-like settings, next to railway uh lines and so on, but others are right next to busy streets, so they're similar to a um a separated bike lane, but right next to a busy street, but they're um a combination. So there's a lot of uh tricky parts of the bike infrastructure terminology.

Peter Ladner: 8:49

Uh oftentimes we hear that cyclists endanger pedestrians, that especially on these multi-use paths, they go too fast. Uh, pedestrians are fearful and sometimes angry about cyclists. Certainly um we hear that at intersections in the city and so on. Are there is there data that shows that cyclists really are a danger to pedestrians?

Kay Teschke: 9:14

I did a look at this uh because people have been telling me that this is such a problem. And uh the BC government has statistics that look at um pedestrians injured by cyclists and and cyclists injured by pedestrians, it does go both ways when you mix them. Um but it is so small that the statistical agency that provided me with the data had to hide um the numbers because they don't give out numbers less than five for any particular year. So in fact, uh it it's uh you know it's just negligible how many are injured in either direction. But it can happen in either direction. For example, a famous uh crash on the Burard Street Bridge in Vancouver in the 90s, which motivated the new separated bike lanes there, was someone was riding on the sidewalk, which is where they were supposed to ride, on a basically a multi-use path, and coming along, and there were pedestrians too, and the pedestrians gesturing with their arms knocked the cyclist onto the onto the uh car lane, and the person ended up with a massive head injury and sued the city. So that can happen in either direction. It's really sad that people walking and people biking end up um uh kind of fighting each other for the small amount of space that they're allocated. What we really need to do is provide both with their own space because they have different speeds and we don't want neither one wants to scare or hurt the other. And we want best the best case scenario would be to get together and fight for the best possible root types.

Peter Ladner: 11:05

Kate, you mentioned the incident on the Barard Bridge and somebody falling over and having a head injury. What do you think about helmet laws? Do helmet laws make cycling safer? I'm talking compul requiring people to wear helmets.

Kay Teschke: 11:26

So the first of all, I just want to say that helmets do reduce injuries if you're in a crash. So they're a post-crash head injury mitigation measure, and they do reduce the chance of a head injury if you hit your head on in this crash by about 50%. But they don't prevent crashes from happening in the first place, and there are many, many wonderful things to do to prevent head injuries from preventing crashes in the first place, and those things are much, much more important because you can be injured in any part of your body, and so the ideal measure would prevent the crash from happening in the first place, like separated bike lanes, for example, are a great example of how you do that. When people so, first of all, helmets help reduce uh head injuries if you're in a crash, but when we have studied helmet laws, so for example, we compared uh provinces with and without helmet laws and tried to look and see which whether they the ones with helmet laws had lower risk of head injury hospitalization than provinces without helmet laws. And there was no difference. So the helmet law did not increase um uh safety, it just meant an extra requirement for people cycling, and there's evidence that there are some people who won't cycle because of helmet laws, they don't like having to wear a helmet. It can be really hot and bothersome in the summertime, and uh women in particular at certain ages find wearing a helmet really, really tough, and in the winter time they can be very hard to wear if uh if it's really cold out. So there's reason to focus the safety effort on infrastructure and other things than uh helmets alone. When I first started my research on cycling safety, if you went to a site like ICBC or various uh police organizations that were touting a message of cycling safety, and in fact, even many bicycling advocacy organizations, they would say the first thing, the main thing you can do to protect yourself when you're cycling is to wear a helmet. And in fact, helmets are a measure of last resort. They're what happen what you should wear, what you you hope you have if you're in a crash. What you really want to do is prevent the crash from happening in the first place. In the public health field, we call that primary prevention. And that's what you want to do, first of all, is prevent the crash from happening.

Peter Ladner: 14:29

Kay, you've worked on uh with a number of governments and policy agencies. You mentioned the Vancouver Cycling Advocacy Group, but I know you've done more than that. Um you've been recommending changes to legislation that could increase public uh health or cycling safety. Could you point to any particular just before we get into Bill 23 and safe passing distances, can you mention anything you've personally put forward that you're proud of that has actually made a difference?

Kay Teschke: 15:01

Well, for the for overall, what I have proposed that has actually made a difference is the results of our uh infrastructure research, which shows the types of routes that are safer than other types of routes. And a lot of cities across Canada and across BC and in North America and elsewhere have started to put in much more safe route infrastructure, in particular protected bike lanes along busy city streets. But when it comes to legislation, um so far the element that I've been promoting hasn't been adopted, and that is a 30 kilometer an hour speed limit for residential streets. And right now the default speed limit in urban settings across the country is 50 kilometers an hour, including our residential streets, and it's it's too fast, it makes uh uh urban areas uncomfortable, and in places in the world where they've reduced the speed limit to 30 kilometers an hour in residential settings. For example, in London, there are certain areas they've done it, they found that injuries have been reduced by about 50 percent. So it really makes a difference. And uh I'm it's interesting because in 2016 the the uh predecessor to Bonnie Henry, Perry Kendall, the public provincial health officer, had a report on traffic safety. And in it, one of his recommendations was that the province adopt a 30 kilometer an hour default speed limit in urban settings, and then you have a default in urban settings of 30, and then you can increase the speed limit along uh busy streets like um arterials and shopping streets or whatever. So, but that has not been adopted, and it's a real shame.

Peter Ladner: 17:01

That's been endorsed by the UBC, the Union of BC municipalities, various city councils, some municipalities, Saanich, for example, have implemented it on their own. But why do you think it's widely supported by public uh health by surveys of people? Somebody said something like 90% of people when asked if you think that the speed limit should be reduced in their immediate neighborhood said yes. But somehow for some reason it never happens. Have you any thoughts on that?

Kay Teschke: 17:33

Yeah, I mean what you just quoted there about over 90% of people would like the neighborhoods, their own neighborhood streets have a reduced speed limit, is from um the BC or from the Canadian Automobile Association survey. So it's not uh just uh bicyclists or pedestrians who are hoping for that, it's people who own cars and uh and belong to this association. The other interesting thing is that if you when in our injury study, we used uh radar to measure speeds at various um sites around the cities that we were studying. And on residential streets, the median speed was about 30 kilometers an hour, and the uh 85th percentile speed was 37 kilometers an hour. So people are already driving much more slowly on the on uh neighborhood streets on average, but there are some people who are driving still above 30. Um, but we seem so hesitant. I think politicians have this thing in their mind that reducing the speed limit is really a scary step to take, and they don't know these data about how the public wants slower speed limits and how the public already on average drive more slowly on these streets. And I think if they uh would be perhaps a little braver and uh and test it out, they might be quite pleasantly surprised with a public reaction. Especially if the public was allowed to petition their municipal government to raise the speed limit on their street as an option. I'm betting that uh they'd find out pretty quickly that not many neighborhoods want to raise their speed limit.

Peter Ladner: 19:24

Okay, let's talk about Bill 23. Uh for those who are deeply into this, like some of us, uh this is a bill that the BC government has brought forward enabling uh regulations which are still to come to set a safe distance between cyclist and a passing car, and cyclist and a car behind. Um at this point, the the distances put forward were one meter to the side and three meters to behind. And uh this is still uh to be determined. But uh I know there are differing opinions about this, and I know you have some. What is your uh recommend what would your recommendation be for the the distance that should be required by this new law?

Kay Teschke: 20:12

Right. So this is something passing distance laws is something that's been happening in um the English-speaking world, so in the US, in Australia, in uh the UK, and to a certain extent in Canada. And the initial uh group of laws that have been put out were a meter passing distance or three feet in the US. And it hadn't been studied ahead of time very seriously. But what happened was there have been now a number of studies that have come out in two different types. One was just looking at before and after these um these uh laws were put in effect. What was the passing distance? They used these fancy cameras and radar setups to tell how far uh traffic was from the person bicycling. And what they found was that before the laws, the typical distance of passing was five to six feet. Whereas after the law, it actually got a little less. So you have a three-foot passing law, you advertise it, and now people think, oh, I didn't have to give that much space, which is not a good thing. Now you're you're telling people they can pass closer because no one figured out what people were already doing, which was giving more space. The other thing that happened is someone compared US states with and without these passing laws, and what they found for bicycling crashes, and what they found is that there was actually a slight in increase after the passing law in the states that put in passing laws versus not. And it wasn't statistically significant, so we would say it's no difference. So that amount of uh passing distance, the three feet, is not enough. And it's interesting because recently in the UK they made a law and they said a minimum of 1.5 and then uh meters and two meters after a certain speed, and I actually can't remember what that speed is. So they've taken the data that has come out in the last few years and made a better passing distance, a better minimum passing distance. And so that's what I would support is 1.5 meters up to probably uh 30 kilometers an hour, and after that you want at least two meters. And it's not unreasonable to think that when someone's on a fast street, for example, if someone's riding on a rural road with no shoulders and you want to pass them, you should just pass them in the other lane because you're going quickly. The default speed limit on a rural road is 80 kilometers an hour. The wind that you create, the turbulence you create when you're driving past a person on a bike is going to cause that bike to wobble. So you want to give them a lot of space, and you already have to give that amount of space to a tractor on that road or another car on that road. Why not also for a person on a bike? The second part, oh, go ahead. Sorry. Uh, you also mentioned a following distance, and that proposal took me by surprise. I hadn't realized that that was going to be a proposal. And it's interesting to the the proposal is that you have to follow a bicyclist by at least three meters. There has to be a three-meter gap. But think about what that's trying to protect the bicyclist from. It's trying to protect you from being rear-ended. A person on a bike, when they brake, they stop quickly because they're light. There's not so much momentum. And a car, although you've got fancier braking systems, it takes more space for them to slow down and stop. And the space it takes them to slow down and stop depends on the time they have to do that. And what affects the time? Well, how what is the reaction time to see that cyclist slow down and put their foot on the brake in that time? Depending on the speed they're already going, they can travel a certain distance. So the faster you're going, the long the further you can travel in your car before even beginning to put the brakes on. And then once you put the brake on, speed also takes uh it's also part of the equation because you have to slow down over a longer distance. So you may have been trained when you were taking driver training about how far you should stay back from the car.

Peter Ladner: 25:15

Two-second rule.

Kay Teschke: 25:17

Two-second rule, absolutely. And uh the reason for the two-second rule is because in two seconds you you uh have a greater distance between you and the car in front if you're going faster, and a lesser distance if you're going slower. So it that using time as the basis for uh the rule takes into account the velocity that you're traveling at. And in fact, in the ICBC training materials, they recommend a longer time rule, three seconds, when you're driving behind a vehicle that can stop more quickly than you, for example, a motorcycle. So a three-second rule uh for bicycling seems appropriate. And when I did the calculations, um there is no speed that uh would result in a only three-meter distance. You have to be stopped, where a three-meter distance would be satisfactory uh distance behind a bicyclist. So, and at uh some very reasonable speeds, you need to be uh 30 meters behind. So it's terrifying, this uh proposal, and I am really, really alarmed about it. I think it's an emergency to get uh uh the provincial government to realize that they made a big mistake. And uh, there's even some rumors about that maybe someone had the three-second rule in their mind, but uh thought of it as three meters and just made an error. Um and if that was the case, I hope someone just says, we made a mistake. Let's change this, let's not endanger cyclists.

Peter Ladner: 27:02

I I feel compelled to say that the BC Cycling Coalition is working closely with the the provincial government on this and recognizing that we uh uh many cycling organizations, not just us, have asked for the safe passing distance for many years, and now we're finally getting it. And uh so we're we're engaged in a bit of a dance about um don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. But I I I hear your queer point that it may not just be perfect, but even good to have something different from what was originally proposed. But our feeling has been that uh, well, at least we've got some legislative uh recognition that cyclists and vulnerable road users need to have some space around them. And uh I look forward to the continuing debate about how to make that truly effective based on the data, because I I do like your your uh uh approach to these things where you measure and look at the research and uh try to come up with something that actually has proven to be effective. Okay, is there anything else you'd like you think we need to know about cycling safety or uh the safety for vulnerable road users? Um we haven't talked about intersection cameras or speed cameras. I presume that if you were an advocate of 30k default speed limits in residential areas, you might be a supporter of that as well.

Kay Teschke: 28:27

Yeah, I think all these speed camera enforcement is such a good idea. Um we talk a lot about equity uh these days, and we know that when police officers need to go out and enforce traffic laws in person with a radar gun, first of all, it's uh it's not comprehensive because it's just in at certain times of year or certain places. So you want to have it be equitable in time and space, and you want everyone to be treated the same way. And there have been lots of studies showing that people are treated differently when they interact with a police officer. So it's an equitable, fair uh solution, and uh to have um speed cameras or red light cameras. I think it's a great idea. People worry about those things um being money grabs, so there are solutions to that. In Sweden for a while they had a trial of putting all the money earned in these uh situ uh in with these uh systems into a pot, and uh there'd be a lottery at the end of the year that everyone who hadn't been caught violating these uh laws uh could um could be a potential winner of some of that pot of money, which was a cool idea. Um but the other thing that some people have advocated for uh is making clear that this intersection. Section, it does have a speed camera, does have a red light camera. And so that people have fair warning, and that seems also reasonable to do. Yeah, so those I definitely am for it. One of the other big safety features that I really think needs to be implemented, it's not a legal one, it's an infrastructure one, and it would make such a difference for people walking and biking. And it's a very common feature in rural areas and in suburban areas, and that is slip lanes. So you talked about intersections. So when you come to an intersection in many of our suburban areas, you get to the intersection. If you're going straight, you just stay in your lane. But if you're turning right, there's this little lane, it's almost like a freeway entrance or a freeway, it's a cut that allows you to just continue to going right. And so if you're walking or cycling across, you have to go across that slip lane. And then you start on the intersection. And slip lanes are a real problem. They're a source of not only crashes that involve people biking and walking, but also car-car crashes. Because when you're making that turn, if the traffic is going in the same direction you're hoping to get to, you have to look back at such an angle that it's hard for you to see the traffic coming along that lane. So that is a huge infrastructure improvement, is to remove slip lanes.

Peter Ladner: 31:39

Finally, Kay, a little while ago, you were at at my home and you wanted to get home before dark because you didn't want to cycle in the dark. Is it? I feel when I'm cycling in the dark that I'm actually safer because I'm lit up and there are just a few lights around. There's the car lights and my lights. It should be pretty easy for me to be seen, but you don't feel that way, or is there data to show that it is more dangerous riding at night, even if you have lights?

Kay Teschke: 32:11

I don't know the data of with lights, without lights. So that's interesting. There is data showing there's a slightly higher risk when you're riding at night. One thing about bike lights compared to motor vehicle lights is they're small and there's so much going, can be so much going on on the street that uh that seeing the bike in amongst all the other lights may be hard. But if you're riding on a residential street, it's it shouldn't be too bad. So my caution is also partly because my eyesight is uh like many people of my age, I'm 71, uh, is not as good at night. And so the combination of uh slightly higher risk and uh my poorer eyesight at night uh um makes me avoid night night cycling uh if I can. I mean I do cycle at night sometimes.

Peter Ladner: 33:08

Okay, you mentioned that bike lights at night could be small and insignificant. I assume you would then advocate for stronger lights or strong lights if you're riding at night. What about using a light during the day? Does that make any difference?

Kay Teschke: 33:22

Yes, there is excellent research on using daytime running lights. There was actually a randomized control trial done in Sweden with uh thousands of people uh issued bikes without uh uh permanent running lights, and uh and others randomized to a group that got bikes that had lights that ran as soon as you started using them, the lights were on. And what they found is there were about 50% fewer collisions, so collisions with other road users, which is what you what you would expect to prevent. So it didn't change the number of uh crashes where you're just by yourself, but if you were gonna collide with another person on a bike, a motor vehicle, or pedestrian, those types of collisions were reduced by about 50% using daytime running lights. So it's one of those things that I use all the time. And it, you know, it's a great example of a primary prevention measure that you can control. So as a cyclist, I can choose to wear a helmet. That's a secondary prevention measure if I'm in a crash. But if I want a primary prevention measure uh that will prevent me from or reduce my risk of being in a crash, daytime running lights is a great way to do that.

Peter Ladner: 34:40

What's more important, front lights or backlights?

Kay Teschke: 34:44

Uh I'm not going to choose. Okay.

Peter Ladner: 34:48

Okay, thank you very much. This has been really interesting, and uh I hope we can get you and people like you involved in these policy decisions so that we can actually come up with results that will really make a difference because there's obviously still a lot of work to be done to make cycling um and all kinds of active transportation safer. So thank you very much.

Kay Teschke: 35:12

Well, thank you for having me, Peter. I really appreciate the chance to let people know some of the uh research results.

Peter Ladner: 35:25

Thanks for listening to Bike Test and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richard Fuel Center, ITBC, Moto, and Device Motor.ca

Read about the BC Government's controversial Bill 23 legislation regarding safe passing distances around cyclists HERE.

Check here for a great compilation and  systematic debunking of common CYCLING FALLACIES courtesy of the  Cycling Embassy of Great Britain.

Peter Ladner brings in Shared Mobility Architect Sandra Phillips to connect the dots between shared transportation modes to help people get around safely and quickly, while reducing dependence on privately owned automobiles.

Movmi, her BC-based consulting firm, has worked with communities from Switzerland to Vancouver, and from Moncton NB to Portland, Nelson, Osoyoos, and New York  state — helping communities structure and finance shared cargo bikes,  e-scooters, cars, and even electric autonomous on-demand buses to enable shared mobility at every scale.

Release date: November 09, 2023

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Latin, the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Sandra Phillips. She calls herself a shared mobility architect. She's the founder of M O B, which is a VC-based consultancy that's helped bring shared mobility to communities and cities in over 70 projects for.

Sandra Phillips: 0:56

Thank you, Peter, and thank you for the invitation to join the podcast. So, what is shared mobility? It's essentially any vehicle that you don't own, but you share in your community. It doesn't matter to us whether that's uh a bike or uh a car, or actually, in fact, even buses can be part of the share mobility. Uh I always call public transit transport the big brother or big sister, whatever you prefer, of all these small share mobility modes uh that have been popping up the last couple years. Um now about myself, I'm you may detect a tiny accent. I'm a transplant from Switzerland. Uh moved to Canada in 2008 permanently, but have been coming here since 2001, on and off. Um and so I have uh a background from a country that is very small, everything is very connected. Having said that, I grew up in a rural part of Switzerland where even though we have this image and you can go on a train anywhere, that was true when I was probably like 10. Um, up until I was 10, there was a train from my little tiny town, village, uh, that connected all the way to Zurich if I wanted to. But in my high school year, that train was canceled. And so we cycled basically to school and to the closest train station where we got our bikes stolen, just like today. Um but yeah, I had this like connected network, and then at some point I lived above a train station um in Switzerland, like the SBB rented out their old train stations, um, I guess to people who wanted to live. Um, and so I rented with a number of friends, and I lived above, and there was also a car sharing station right outside. So I had everything a bike, a car sharing station, and the train right below me. Um and then I moved to Canada, and people were jokingly saying within a year you have a car, and I did not have a car. Um, in fact, I'm quite stubborn. The first car I got is because I have a little kid and I had to get to daycare, and it was not safe to bike anymore, or I didn't feel safe with her on the back along the highway.

Peter Ladner: 3:22

Um Do you have a car now, Sandra?

Sandra Phillips: 3:24

I do. That's what I'm um I do since last year. It's the first time that I have a car.

Peter Ladner: 3:33

And how do you feel about that?

Sandra Phillips: 3:35

Oh, I was like not very happy. Let's just put it that way. My my husband was like, your entire soul just got crushed. You thought you could make it through life without owning one, and it did not quite work. We moved to the Sunshine Coast, uh seashelt, and our daughter couldn't get into daycare right up the road, so we had to drive her to Half Moon Bay. I tried it once on our I have an electric cargo bike, a rad wagon. I did it once, and there were two semis passing me with her on the back, and that was the end of that. I was like, not doing that. I am too scared. Um, not maybe less so if it was just me, but with her on the back, I was too scared. Um, and there's not very good lighting. If you know the Sunshine Coast Highway, there's not very good lighting. So in the winter it's dark and hard to see some of the corners around the corners.

Peter Ladner: 4:28

So well, let's get into that because you are somewhat typical of many people in BC living in a uh a rural community, probably not well served by transit, and seeking alternatives to owning a car, but here you are, let's say, trapped into having to own your car. Could you describe if you had your dream and all your knowledge of shared mobility options, what would the Sunshine Coast look like from a dream shared mobility point of view?

Sandra Phillips: 5:00

Uh-huh. That's a very good question. Um, so I will actually say before I go into your question, I'm gonna give you a little bit of like how we picked where we live. Because me being in transportation now for almost 13 years, the one thing I always do is map out all the infrastructure around my house. So we picked the place where the school was literally walking distance, we picked a place where we had sidewalks and lights, because I didn't want to live somewhere there wasn't that. We have a bike lane literally starting outside of our house and it goes right into Seasheld, unfortunately to have Moon Bay. Um, and I have a bus stop literally around the corner. But that is because I made a conscious choice that that's where we wanted to live, somewhere where we had all of that. Okay. Now, what I would love for the Sunshine Coast is for all the people to have this. Because I recognize West Seasheld, which is the neighborhood we live in, and it's a newer, um newer newer developed area, about 20 years old, they have made an effort to do that. Um, and in fact, uh Seasheld actually is connecting um the school, the elementary school with the high school with um a protected bike lane as well. So Seasheld is putting efforts in, but it's just pockets. The Sunshine Coast has pockets of this, but a vast majority of people, and if you live in Half Month Bay or Roberts Creek, you have very limited access to infrastructure, to lighting, which seems so trivial, but it's actually so important in a rainy winter season. Um yeah, so I would love if we just could build this out. And then once we have the infrastructure built out, I think then I would love to add more services. So we have a very small embryonic car share. Um, the closest one to me is at City Hall, which is on the electric bike, a 10-minute bike ride, so not too bad, but it's one. So if that's taken, there isn't any other option. Um yeah. And then if I could really add uh something that is a bit on the innovative side, and I know BC Transit is experimenting with that, at least in in the Okanagan Valley, is the DRT, a demand-responsive transit. Essentially, I always describe it as you put carpooling on a small van and bus, and now you have more reach. It more coverage, you don't necessarily move more people, but you can cover a bigger area. Because as I said, I have a bus stop here, but if you're in half moon bay, you have to walk quite far, and you sit basically on a dark road with no light again, on a chair that somebody from the neighborhood just donated to sit on. Um so yeah.

Peter Ladner: 7:49

So uh you you said that uh in some communities you have helped set up uh shared mobility. Um you mentioned Moncton is a recent one, a small-ish Canadian town. Um, what did you do there and how would active transportation fit into their shared mobility program?

Sandra Phillips: 8:11

So Moncton is an interesting one because they're actually at the point of evaluating whether or not they came to us because they were evaluating whether or not they should bring car share to Moncton and whether or not they should do it themselves, or if they should essentially allow a provider uh to come. Now, for the Canadian landscape, there's really if you're in the Metro Vancouver area, Victoria, you will have heard of Modo, the car co-op. Um, been around now. I have to be make sure 25 years. Um quite a large fleet, diverse fleet. Now, if you go east of the border of Alberta, the I guess the equivalent is Cominotto. They started in Montreal. Now, Kominoto has made it um one of their pillars is going to more rural communities. But to make that work, there has to be an anchor user, which generally is the municipality. So there's some funding basically coming from the municipality towards the car share so they can start. Because it's small, right? Um, viability of uh of this. If you only have one car, to my earlier point in Seashelt, you have one car, that one is gone, then it's not reliable, then people will not sign up, right? So they want to start with six. And they reached out to us and said, okay, you have done this in a lot of different places, you understand the financials. What should we do? Should we go with Kominotto and basically fund it for a portion of time and get a revenue share back, or should we just stand it up ourselves? Um, and so the recommendation that we've given them is it's much smarter to start with somebody who is Kominotto has all the software, has all the you know, support system in place. Much smarter, also lower cost, even though there's going to be some um, I guess, cross-funding initially, than if they want to stand this up themselves. Uh, I've seen enough of those, we stand three cars up ourselves and then it fails because nobody signs up. Um, because it's actually a lot of work in the in the background. So now to your question, how do you now tie active transportation in? Well, one of um one of the really smart ways, I think, is to start thinking not just I'm gonna do car share, and then we have public transport, and then what are we gonna do with the bikes, but actually think about can you bring everything together? Like, could the car share be close to the bus stop, which is where people who don't have a car need to most likely go or come from? And could you have active transportation anchored around that as well? Like, for instance, something simple as even just a bike rack next to the car share would be very useful. In my context, in Seashelt, I have a bike rack across the street of the car sharing car at the library. But the second car in Roberts Creek, there's no bike rack close by. So something very simple, but I have to get myself somehow there, right?

Peter Ladner: 11:19

Does that include having a bike rack on a bus and or having the bike racks like like they do in some of the cars in Vancouver on the roof of the car, which I don't know how you get an e-bike up there, but I like the idea.

Sandra Phillips: 11:32

Yeah, um, I think having bike racks on buses are great. Having said that, if um it requires a bit of strength to lift the bike up, and the same with the ones on the roofs um of the Evos in the city. I think the ones on a in the car sharing context, having bike racks on the roof is really if you want to encourage people to go to a destination and then let's say do mountain biking. If you just want to encourage people to have a way, or if you just want to make sure people have a way to connect the dots, like from my house to the car share car, and then I'm taking that and come back, just make then you just need essentially something at the station, more so than on top of the roof. And that's what really Evo uh's use case is. Um, I mean, their big their brand is built around the lifestyle in BC, right? Which they have not only bike racks, but they also have ski racks in between. So it's all about what you're doing when you have the car. Can you now go on an adventure? Where in most cases in in smaller towns, when car sharing starts out, you're really just replacing the car for like, I need to go and see my friends, my family, I need to go to a doctor's appointment, I need to go shopping. Less so I'm going on an adventure and I want to go mountain biking. To be very honest, I have that in my in my backyard. I can just go there um to go mountain biking on the coast.

Peter Ladner: 13:02

I think that's typical of a lot of communities in BC that the mountain biking is readily accessible. Now you did some work in Nelson, I believe. How does their car share? What did you do there and and how did they get involved and how is it working out?

Sandra Phillips: 13:14

Nelson is a is a big bit of a unique um case. So I'm trying to think of how it's best explained. So they had a car share. Um they're, I'm gonna call them beaters, but that's not really what they are. But they're older cars, they're really geared towards what you're doing in Nelson, okay? And they're, you know, you may take it on a road that's not as well uh maintained. So they wanted to have cars that can handle that. Um so that's how they started. And then a couple of years ago, they started to think about okay, can we electrify it? Which is a real challenge for any car share for a number of reasons. One is rebate, the other thing is infrastructure, and infrastructure definitely was a challenge in Nelson.

Peter Ladner: 14:01

Um this one in Nelson was run by the municipality, or was it?

Sandra Phillips: 14:05

No, it no, it's a not-for-profit. It's run independently. Yeah, it's run independently. They work very close, and I actually you just prompted me. There's uh some really interesting work that the city of Nelson has done around regulatory framework that supports the uh car share now. But they really were actually looking at the larger area in the Kootenies to see if they could electrify. And so, what in the end they decided, because they cannot stand up the infrastructure, they can not acquire the cars because they're too expensive and the rebates only apply for a certain uh number of vehicles. So, what they actually did is they blended traditional car chain with peer-to-peer. So if you're familiar with Touro, um, or if you're not familiar with that, Airbnb, think Airbnb. Somebody has an electric car, doesn't need it all the time, now puts it into their fleet, and now you can access this when you need it. And it's quite, I will tell you, it's probably the most innovative approach I have ever seen a small community take to this electrification problem. Um now the other thing that they managed to do is uh to get City Council to look at their regulatory framework and see if they can support Carshare in a better way. And they actually mirrored uh to a certain extent what what the city of Vancouver and Victoria have done, where CarShare gets a special exemption from some of the parking um rules to encourage people. Uh, you know, it it becomes easier then than your normal car to move around in town. Um, again, for a very small community, it's they've they've probably done most that I know. Like otherwise, it's the Victorious, the Calgaries, the city of Vancouver, right? Montreal, that has these kind of very forward-thinking policies, um, less so in a small community. I think if I ask Seashelt what they would be doing for a car share, they would be looking at me like, why would I even care about that?

Peter Ladner: 16:06

Um so let's talk about that. Where does the incentive for car sharing come from, typically in your experience in these communities? Is it uh people, I don't know, drivers who want a better deal don't want to have to buy a car, or is it someone at the municipal staff or politicians who say we need this in our community? And how do they justify the expense and decide to go ahead?

Sandra Phillips: 16:33

It's actually often a group of dedicated citizens, like so many things, just like in active infrastructure, um, that really want to change it. I would say in most cases that's where it starts. And then depending on how good their relationship is or how good they are with advocacy work, they'll get the city involved. Um and most cities have some sort of mandate around reducing um, you know, greenhouse gas emissions, reducing kilometers. Pretty much most municipalities in Canada have something. And so if you have a group, a dedicated group of citizens who is first in that, they'll piggyback on it. And that's kind of what happened in Moncton. And then they got the year of the municipality. To make it successful, it's really we always say you need an anchor user. It doesn't matter if it's a municipality, that's the easiest one. You know, they all have fleet. If you can get staff to use the car sharing fleet, it's easy. But you can also have yeah, sorry.

Peter Ladner: 17:36

Just on the municipal fleet.

Sandra Phillips: 17:37

Yeah.

Peter Ladner: 17:38

Uh is the model there that the municipality typically has a fleet of vehicles and then they their staff uses them, and then after hours they make them available for use for the public?

Sandra Phillips: 17:47

Different, different in different communities. Personally, and move me's work. We generally recommend not to make it exclusive for staff during office hour and then open it to the public because you don't have enough utilization. And for all shared services, whether it's bike share or car share, you need lots of people using it lots of time to make the investment worthwhile. Um, so wouldn't say that. Um, but there is communities who do that. So, to you answer your question, yes and no. I wouldn't recommend it. Lots of municipalities push for it because they're cross-funding it. Um, and then two years in, they realize actually they're locking out people who really need it during the day and then open it up slowly over time.

Peter Ladner: 18:36

Um can you talk a little bit about bike share? We've talked about cars. Yes. And bike share people typically think of as being useful and feasible in more dense, built-up urban areas. Are there thresholds for when a bike share becomes feasible in a smaller community?

Sandra Phillips: 18:57

So I think you have to start thinking. So typically or historically, bike share was a traditional pedal bike, right? And that makes a lot of sense for urban dance course. Now, if you start thinking about electric bikes or even electric cargo bikes, all of a sudden it becomes more attractive for smaller communities. Because to your point, and I'm going to use CSHET again, in Seashelt doesn't make sense to stand up a bike share, a traditional pedal bike share. But what does make sense is an electric bike share. And I actually in uh there is a project out of outside of New York, and I'm blanking on the name of the town right now, small town. And what they did is it's a library, and it's next to the regular library, it's a cargo bike, electric bike share library. So you come there, so it's not distributed all across town, but it's there, and you can book them out for longer periods. So it's not just, you know, like how most bike shares are when you need it for the 20 minutes or 30 minutes, and then you need to find a dock again. It's really like you're getting to take it for a week, two weeks at a time, even a month at a time. Um, to try partly is the thought is you try it out, you see if that really changes your behavior, if you really want it still. They have different models in that library. Do you still want that? And then either you buy it, um, or you just realize, you know, I just occasionally want it and go back to the bike library. And that actually has been quite uh it's not just um why can I not? It's like this very Is it Troy uh no? Troy and Albany is where we're working with a public transit operator who is in adding car share and bike share to their offering, but the bike library is Okinawian or something, it's a very um weird name that I can't remember.

Peter Ladner: 21:02

We can put it in the notes for this.

Sandra Phillips: 21:04

I was gonna say I'll find it, I'll drop it over. Um, and there's a bunch of those actually popping up in in Europe too. Now, the other way to bring bike share um or just electric micromobility to small communities is what we've done with Sparrow. Now, Sparrow is a scooter company, but we basically model that after a bike share program, a cargo bike share program in Switzerland. We've teamed up with hotels, and so at the hotels, when you come, it's for a Soyuz, Oliver, they have a lot of cars coming in with tourists, traffic triples, they don't want them to drive around. So at the hotels, you park your car and now you have a scooter, an electric scooter, kick scooter to move around. Now, could you do that with a bike? Yes, exactly the same. And they have now expanded over time. Initially, it was just tied to hotels, now they've expanded to local shops. So at the local shops, there is also a station, and that you can do that. You can do in any small community. Um, the project I mentioned from Citron is an electric cargo one, and it has bikes actually in the neighboring community where I grew up, which is very small. It's about 10,000 people, just like Seasheld. Um, they have two stations at the grocery stores. Uh, they're electric cargo by stations. Yeah.

Peter Ladner: 22:34

Fantastic. Now you mentioned the transit authority, and I know that your work involves the so-called ecosystem of transportation, all the different modes, and somehow keeping them all coordinated or or synchronized and working together. Do you have any interest from BC Transit in any of this work?

Sandra Phillips: 22:52

Yes, we do.

Peter Ladner: 22:54

And what are they thinking? Um what are you thinking for them?

Sandra Phillips: 23:01

I would say um possibly because we have better relationship with Translink. Um, on Translink side, there's been a lot more uh of this integration work going on, possibly also because in Metro Vancouver you have more service offerings that you need to stitch together, right? Um having said that, now that communities like Victoria, um, I actually even Seasheld, even though it's only one car and then Roberts Creek, which is another car, like could we tie this back into BC Transit? They have a multimodal app, they have a transit out of Montreal, which helps with your trip planning. Could we add it there, surface it there? That would be wonderful, I think. Because if you come off the ferry and take the bus, and then they're like, now I'm in Seashell for a week. I'd rather, you know, I want to go, I don't know, I want to drive up to the Schukum Chuk Falls. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just take the car share? Right now it's not integrated at all. And we've had a bit of a hard time uh getting their attention, partly because their point was there isn't much service outside of Metro Vancouver, but that's not true. It's just a lot more smaller and local, like Sparrow is local in the Okanagan. You have another one in the Tofino area, um, you have Victoria, like it's a bit more fragmented uh to stitch it together, but could be done. Transit, the app they're using, has done it in other municipalities. They have integrated them. And even just surfacing, right? Even just showing that this option is there would be so helpful.

Peter Ladner: 24:40

Absolutely. Now you talked, uh you mentioned regulatory frameworks that municipalities could could do. And I think you mentioned that they preferred parking for shared vehicles and so on. What are other things that a municipality could do to enable these options to come into being?

Sandra Phillips: 24:59

Well, there's a few things. One is if they're the anchor user, and even if they're not, if their staff adopts it, people are like, huh, my counselor uses it. Hmm, I should let loose look into it. So essentially be the ambassador for these programs, yeah. Set an example, be the lead with example, exactly. That's one. Um the second one is as I said, thinking about where to place infrastructure. It's often left to the private operators to find places. And what they do is they go where they get an agreement. Now, if you get city staff who is on the planning side to work together, you could really strategically place them. This is what has been uh this is part of the reason why it's so successful in Metro Vancouver area. Because at some point every single Sky Train station got car sharing and bike sharing stations, not just car sharing, bike sharing stations next to it. But for that you need uh the municipal support. You will never get access to this. Um, so you need the staff on the planning side to at least think about it with you. So that's a second one. Um, then you can do regulatory framework like incentives, like if you take parking away, you give it to share mobility, or you're giving um you're incentivizing. Let's just say you don't you get like the Metro Vancouver or Victoria example, where if you use a car share car, you can park in any residential neighborhood, something that is as a private car owner, you are not allowed. So now you're incentivizing that shift. So there's that. Um, I'm trying to think. And then the last one is, you know, cross-funding, finding some public-private partnership, um, just like the Moncton one or the bike share one. Most bike shares operate on that, right? Having some sort of way, and then there's a stake in it. There's also a stake in the success of it.

Peter Ladner: 27:00

Sandra, we're running out of time. I wanted to just touch on in your website, you talk about a project in in a smallish town, 33,000 person town in Switzerland, where they have an automated on-demand bus. And is this something in our future or is that just some freak one-of kind of experiment?

Sandra Phillips: 27:24

So those experiments popped up a couple of years ago everywhere. So it wasn't just, you know, that little mountain town. It was probably one of the first ones, but in Switzerland they popped up all across. Um, and in fact, we even had uh one in Surrey and one in Vancouver run as a test. Um, one ran along to Olympic Village between Grammar Island and Olympic Village, that track, just to see. Now it's very cute, we took it, it's very exciting, it's very like feels very futuristic. I will say in most cases, people haven't quite figured out the use case. It's it's cute and it's small. And I mean, in the in the um example in Switzerland, the Sion one, it goes around uh the town from the train station and it goes to all the points of interest that people want to go to. So it actually had a bit of purpose, but it's it's more of a, I would say it's more of a futuristic tech fun thing to try out. Personally, I think if we ever if we think autonomous future and autonomous vehicles, my preference would be let's build this out and figure how we do that before we start making every bloody car on the road autonomous. Um I think then we have shared, we could make it electric and we could make it autonomous, and I think that would be you know a win-win for everyone, rather than um making every single car autonomous. But at the moment it's more of a plaything, futuristic. Let's see how you feel about it once you're in it, uh, than real life applications.

Peter Ladner: 29:02

Well, it sounds like, as with so many things, this is a case of just doing the hard work and testing something out, proving the case, and uh building on your strengths and examples. And uh I'm encouraged to hear all these ones that you're mentioning around BC. I didn't know about these. And I hope that people listening to this podcast will get some ideas and inspiration from what you're doing. We'll post your um contacts in the in the show notes. And is there anything else you'd like to add before we sign off? Messages to communities that are thinking about this or advocacy groups that are thinking about it.

Sandra Phillips: 29:47

Uh maybe the one thing is it always seems like only the big cities can do something like this. There is by now a lot of examples of smaller, you gotta be very focused. And you've got to be smart. You can't do exactly the same thing that a big city can do. But there's definitely models that have worked, not only in North America, but also in small towns in Europe. Like we always think of Europe as being mega cities, but there is tons of rural areas in France, in Germany, in Switzerland, in the UK, and they're all experimenting with the same thing. So there's lots of models, I think, that we can copy. We don't just have to look at Paris and Vancouver and New York and get all discouraged. So this is maybe my shout-out. Like small can still work. Just got to do it a little bit differently.

Peter Ladner: 30:41

Sandra, thank you so much. Sandra Phillips, the founder of Move Me and an international consultant on shared mobility of all kinds. If you have ideas of what we could be discussing on future podcasts, please send them to us or any reaction or comments about this one. And uh just to let you know that we are thinking, we're working on future podcasts about cycling on the BC ferries and ways to shift the massive amount of billions of dollars that we spend on highway and car improvements to some of these more um uh uh affordable and efficient and planet-friendly alternatives. So thank you so much, Sandra. Look forward to keeping in touch.

Sandra Phillips: 31:27

Thank you for having me.

Peter Ladner: 31:35

Thanks for listening to Bike Sets and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC.

Sandra Phillips: 32:03

I see BC Moto and the bicycle group.

Peter Ladner: 32:07

Visit us at BCcycling.ca.

Check out Movmi: Bringing shared mobility visions to life — HERE

Movmi's project 40 miles north of New York City is in the Village of Ossining, NY — learn more HERE.

Future Mobility expert Jennifer Dungs also talks about Ossining in this WEBINAR on Lower Density and Bike Revolution, moderated by Sandra and including Kassandra McCleery from Copenhagenize and Ashley Finch from Atlanta.

Find out about the Sparrow shared scooter project in Kelowna HERE

Peter Ladner brings in son Brendan and daughter-in-law Amanda to dish on the reality of life as a bikes-only family in Whistler, BC.  We talk ice, snow, studded tires, e-bikes,  irate drivers, singing kids, and Whistler's political will — or notable lack thereof.

Release date: October 10, 2023

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Since, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in AC. I'm your host, Peter Latvier, the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guests today are Brendan and Amanda Latier. This is the nepotism podcast. Brennan is my son, Amanda's my daughter-in-law, and they are the parents of my two of my grandchildren. Um Gavin and Soren, age nine and six. And the reason that we're talking is that Brennan and Amanda live in Whistler, and they have not had a car for I'll get the exact number of years. How many years?

Brendan Ladner: 0:56

We're moving on three years here.

Peter Ladner: 0:57

Three years without a car, and they've done everything they need to do with two e-bikes and sometimes some trailers. We're going to get into how they made it all work. But first of all, welcome Brennan, welcome Amanda.

Brendan Ladner: 1:11

Happy to be here.

Amanda Ladner: 1:12

Yay.

Peter Ladner: 1:15

Amanda, could you describe from your point of view what it's been like to have two bikes, no car?

Amanda Ladner: 1:24

Uh it's been a process that we've had to learn over time. Um, and I think that's with any uh big change you make. Uh it's a big change, so then you have to keep adapting and responding to that and uh and just making the priority about safety always.

Peter Ladner: 1:44

Can you tell us tell us what you do specifically with the kids and the bikes?

Amanda Ladner: 1:51

Yeah, so we yeah, we take them to school. Um, that's every day. Uh we take them to the mountain. So on the weekends when the snow comes, we bike them straight to the foot of the mountain and uh and get on the lift. And uh we bike them to the grocery store and we grocery shop. Uh and if we need to travel, we've even biked, uh, we've put the bikes on uh the bus and we've taken the bikes to Vancouver and then onwards to Victoria, and then we get off the bus and then we bike to where our travel destination is, wherever that might be. So we bike all around. And and as transportation becomes more accessible for e-bikes, we'll continue to expand uh how far we go. But certainly uh it has uh made our footprint smaller in the sense that we don't try to go as far places, we don't necessarily go up to Pemberton just for you know on a whim or up to Joffrey Lakes. We have to be very conscious of using and utilizing the neighborhood and the amenities that we have close by.

Peter Ladner: 3:02

Brendan, what have you learned and how have you adjusted as the years go by on e-biking everywhere?

Brendan Ladner: 3:12

Well, boy, we've learned a lot. Well, first we got an e-bike and then we learned that we needed two e-bikes because we competed for who would get the e-bike. Because you realize, for example, going to the ski hill, it's so much easier with an e-bike than walking or driving because you can drive your e-bike right to the edge of the snow, park within a few steps of the lifts, and so we used to fight about who got to take the e-bike to the mountain to go skiing because the other person didn't want to have to walk home the whole ten minutes.

Peter Ladner: 3:54

So you've got two bikes, but you've also got did you have to get trailers? Do you want the kids just right on behind you on the seat? How does that work?

Brendan Ladner: 4:02

Well, first you have to decide what bike is best suited for your needs. So in our case, we want a bike that can carry two kids on it. Uh sometimes three kids if they have friends with us. And uh so we we demoed a few bikes. And for example, the rad wagon has a very long wheelbase. It's quite difficult to maneuver. And in Whistler, uh because they've built so many impediments to the smooth travel of bicycles, you have to go through these gates and do these awkward turns and things. And it was all it was very, very difficult to do that in a safe way because you have to come basically to a complete stop on a rad wagon. So we found that the volt bike Kodiak that we got was a better choice for what we needed. It's more agile, and actually, since then, other parents have replaced their rad wagon with ours by speaking to us about what we do. So you need the right bike for that. Um, also, it's got enough enough power to be able to carry two or three people on it and get you up the hills.

Peter Ladner: 5:15

So let's cut to the winter. Everybody's thinking, how do you do this when there's ice and snow on the road? Amanda, how does it work?

Amanda Ladner: 5:25

Yeah, so it admittedly, the first year we did not have the right setup. Uh, we we I did have some slips, um, and so I definitely encourage everyone to speak to someone that does it and learn about uh how to do it. Um it it's there's multiple steps to it. One is knowing your route really well already and knowing the places that are you know potentially uh you can slip on. So knowing your route and using the same route daily because you'll see it change. Um, second for me, the big life changer was the year uh that we got snow tires. So as soon as we got winter tires with studs in them.

Brendan Ladner: 6:14

Studded, yeah, studded tires.

Amanda Ladner: 6:16

Studded tires, it just changed my life. Uh, it really made me it's very safe to ride on snow, ice, any kind of conditions. You feel very supported. Um, you still have to be very conscientious and and watch where you're going. But the studded tires has changed my life. And so now I feel much more comfortable going out in all conditions when it's snowing. Um, yeah, but certainly Brendan does the major snow days, admittedly, yes. He's he'll still do those, um, which just so that I I'm not as he feels more comfortable. Um, I didn't grow up biking in the snow, even though I grew up in Edmonton. I that wasn't part of our everyday. So yeah, the studded tires. Then the next thing is you have to dress properly. You actually have to wear a full ski outfit, um, insulated, warm on an e-bike. It is cold. Uh, you need to wear proper gloves, a helmet, and goggles because when it's snowing, you can't see as well. So you need to be able to have goggles so you can see in all lights, just like you would up the mountain.

Peter Ladner: 7:26

Brendan, can you elaborate on clothing and ways to keep warm and dry? You've got to get the kids on all the kids have to wear all this stuff too.

Brendan Ladner: 7:36

Well, yeah, the kids, it's great if the kids have uh a onesie, but they're wearing ski gear.

Peter Ladner: 7:41

Well, not everybody. Yeah, but not everybody listening to this is.

Brendan Ladner: 7:44

Okay, so let's go, let's go through what that is, right? You have a base layer, you which basically uh we live in the mountains, so I'm wearing a base layer on my pants uh starting end of October till the end of April. Every day, all day, no matter what I'm wearing, unless I'm uh at work.

Peter Ladner: 7:59

That's like long underwear.

Brendan Ladner: 8:01

Long underwear, yeah, like a merino wool base layer. Then you have whatever the pants are, let's call it a pair of jeans or a pair of pants, and then you have uh snow pants. Now, those snow pants, they gotta be loose. Right? If you have them tight fitting, which might work for skiing, it's not the same because you're bringing one knee up with the other knee down, you need more room to move, right? So I've tried, I've actually had three different pairs of pants, but I keep going back to the original pair because they have the best mobility. That pair needs to be insulated. Just a simple shell means you would need another layer of pants underneath. That gets a lot clunkier and tougher to move in. So having uh an insulated pant that is, let's call it one size too big for you, with a waist that you can get tightened, tightened. Now, also it's gonna get really dirty. Right? You're gonna get dirty slush, you're gonna get stuff off your chain, etc. etc. So uh just be ready that they're gonna get dirty. So it was easy for me to choose. I went to the thrift store, I got a pair, and then the last thing is is make sure that they're waterproof. Right? Water resistant, anything below the top level of waterproof is not good enough because you are gonna get soaked. Um, moving up the body, uh, much to my wife's dismay, I wear a workman's jacket uh from Mark's Workwear World that has the big reflective thing on it, so it's like a reflective vest because I feel safer on darker mornings, having more visibility. Also, the jacket is immediately warm when you put it on and is pretty good, except for on the wettest of days. And the wettest of days, you gotta wear the actual Gore-Tex, where you know your Heli Hansen, Arcteryx, whatever, that high-end Gore-Tex that will really keep you dry. The goggles need to be light, so yellow or clear. As if you're going night skiing, because you're gonna be biking at night. If you have any tint in them, it's gonna impede your visibility. And then lastly, uh it's the mitts, bar mitts, they're called, which are the neoprene pockets that sit on the outside of your uh handlebars. That's gonna keep your hands dry and warm and keep the wind off. I tried Hestra gloves, I tried snowmobiling gloves, I bought all different pairs of gloves, and nothing will keep your hands warm. You can wear lousy gloves in the bar beds, and your hands will stay warm because there's no wind and there's no water, there's no snow getting onto your hands. So, from the gear perspective, that's my additions to Amanda's uh insights there.

Peter Ladner: 10:41

Okay, so now you're warm and dry and you got your studded tires. Amanda, where do you go where you're not gonna be in danger of being hit by a car or a truck?

Amanda Ladner: 10:53

Well, it's an important question because where do you go? It's uh you do need to share the roads. Um, you're you're gonna be sharing the roads, and so the municipalities that are making bikes a priority, that means before cars, before trucks. That's what making biking is a priority in terms of the their those individuals' safety. It's a net gain to everyone, the municipalities that are actually trying to make biking safe. It is just an ultimate gain for all the community. And so, admittedly, I'm gonna say there's certain municipalities that are making it safe, it's doing their best. Uh, Vancouver and Victoria are some of the best places to bike. And and and I know that I spoke to the Gibson's mayor, and he is also very invested in this as well. So we'll see if he does it. Um, but yeah, where do I go? I mean, I prefer to bike on the Valley Trail. And the problem with that is that it's caused our community a quite a bit of upheaval because my e-bike goes 20 kilometers an hour and I'm moving quickly, and there's and we're sharing the path with pedestrians, cyclists that are not on e-bikes, mountain bikers, dog walkers, right? So it's becoming that traffic and that ability to maneuver around multiple flows within the valley trail system is now something that is causing us to change and adapt as a community. And as I said earlier in this podcast, it's been an adaptation and evolution since we started and moved here. Um, certainly when we first moved here, we were some of the only ones electric with electric bikes on everyday commuting versus some people will take out electric bikes just for a fun lifestyle or tourist engagement for an hour of a day, right? So it's not, there was a little bit of e-biking, but it wasn't like it is three years later. Now what we're seeing is more and more families and parents inspired and motivated to take their kids on an e-bike because it's just easier in a hilly place to get your kids around, get them to soccer practice, get them to, you know, this year we've been in baseball now three years, and we started being the only electric bike family coming in onto the baseball diamond with our two kids. But now we come to baseball and there's all those electric bikes with all their kids. Um, and that's great because uh more and more what we're seeing is that that's beneficial for children as well to be spending time outside um for that longer period of time. And and so we'll see. I'm sure that those families are also having um challenges and adapting as we've had to do. And so now more and more families will ask us about our tires and how we set up our baskets and all of this. So it's a it's a learning, it's a learning together, and we need to continue to be learning together and and helping each other out.

Peter Ladner: 14:14

So, Amanda, you've talked about how some parents have been inspired. Brendan, can you talk a little more about the reaction you get when you're riding around on an e-bike, either from parents or drivers or politicians that you're lobbying to try to get support? What's it been like?

Brendan Ladner: 14:32

Well, there's a few layers to that. Uh, because when you're biking in the winter, you have to bike where it's plowed. And the valley trail, which uh is a multi-use path, gets plowed most of the time, especially if you call them and tell them it hasn't been plowed. Uh, but they aren't, it's not always plowed ready for your morning commute. However, the roads are always plowed for your morning commute. So you end up having to bike on the road, and when you bike on the road, you have to bike where it's plowed, which means that you are in the way of people driving cars and trucks, and even though the speed limit's 30, and even though we have studded tires and we're going 30, they get very impatient.

Peter Ladner: 15:21

So just let me be clear are you out in the traffic, like in the same path as the cars and trucks, or are you just off to the side but not very far off?

Brendan Ladner: 15:29

You there's only a path wide enough for one car. You can't be on the side, otherwise you're in a foot of snow. You're talking about on residential streets or on the highway. I'm talking about residential streets on snowy days.

Peter Ladner: 15:45

Yeah.

Brendan Ladner: 15:45

Uh in fact, to get from our house to school, there is no multi-use path to take. You have to go on the road. Right? Because otherwise, if we took the multi-use path, we would take a four-kilometer trip, which is otherwise 1.6 kilometers, uh, if we stay on the roads. So we have to bike on the roads. And when it snows, you have to bike where it's been plowed, which means you are therefore in the way of a truck that is capable of going faster than the speed limit, with a driver that desperately wants to go faster than you. So uh what we find is like definitely on the snowy days when you have to go in the middle of the road, you will be subjected to aggressive behavior by impatient drivers because there's not like if it was a plastic bag on the road, people would slow down, oh, what's that? Drive around it. But if it's a cyclist deliberately in front of you, being safe with their family, I don't know if anything enrages pickup truck drivers more than that. And so we get subjected to close passes, we get subjected to yelling, people have thrown stuff at us, um, lots of dangerous driving behavior. And unfortunately, you gotta build a thick skin if you want to be a change maker because the trucks are the status quo, and we're trying to make positive change, and we're just actually trying to get around on a bike, and uh sometimes you have to I've had I know Amanda's had more experiences than me because people will uh speak down to women more than to men. So, but uh, anyways, you have to share the road. So there's confrontation, and to get through the center of Whistler, the village, which is our town center, there is no multi-use path to get around. There's only sidewalks where you have to walk your bike. So you are forced to go on the roads. So unfortunately, we are forced through the design of the infrastructure of our town to be in conflict with drivers uh on snowy days.

Peter Ladner: 17:46

Talk a little bit about the kids. Like they're what it's like for them to either be on the on the on the bike on a happy day or when somebody's yelling at you. Amanda? Do they enjoy it? Do they look forward to getting on the bike?

Amanda Ladner: 18:04

Oh, yeah. I mean, well, again, so you have to understand that there isn't an option, right? Like we there's not another choice. That's how we get around. So the kids, uh the kids are definitely of, you know, they enjoy it. When we first started, my younger one used to sing the whole time. He would just sing and he would sing me as we, you know, biked around the town and um even on snowy days, you know. So uh I I think they have, you know, what we would term a grittiness for it, um, which is is built, it's developed. Um, they know they need to dress in a certain way. They will sometimes choose to not, but that that has its own consequences. Um, but I mean, and definitely the safety, safety first. So we're always trying to be safe. Um I have to say, like, my kids don't like it when we get verbally abused by drivers. Like they will start now shouting back and uh and because they feel it and it's it's very it's very unkind towards us. Um it's uh they know that it it's it not only distracts us, but it it uh it it really impacts us. It's very stressful to be yelled at by cars and trucks and taxi drivers. Get out of the way. You shouldn't be on the road. Like, well, where are we supposed to go? Um, and so it uh I have uh contacted the municipality and telling them that we are abused because we don't have our own space to bike. And so is you know, it's more than just a safety issue uh for us sharing the path. It's a safety issue for our own uh emotional and psychological safety. Um, and it's it's very, it's it's very sad actually. It's sad that drivers are so anxious about us being on the road, they don't want to hit us. You know, they don't want to do that. And so there's a fear. There is a fear that somewhere in that anger, and I hear it and I do have compassion for it. Uh, but I just every time I just want to say, well, then tell your municipality to prioritize bikes so that we don't have to share the road.

Peter Ladner: 20:30

Let's talk about that for a minute. Uh, as you may know, the BC Cycling Coalition is championing safe routes throughout the province. And Whistler actually ranks pretty high by by the number of kilometers of so-called protected uh routes for cyclists. Um, Brendan, you've taken this pretty seriously, I know, and you ran for council, almost got elected. Uh on this is part of your platform. What has been the reaction from the politicians? Because you Whistler, along with so many other municipalities, has an active transportation plan that purports to be delivering the very benefits that you're looking for. The province has a clean BC plan that's trying to get people supposedly out of their cars to doing the very things you're doing, but it doesn't sound like it's landing very well on the road. So discuss the just tell us a little bit about the political climate, the support for what you're doing at the municipal level.

Brendan Ladner: 21:28

Well, first, uh I'm gonna question the methodology of the BC Cycling Coalition to have been able to give Whistler a good score because multi-use path is not a protected bike lane.

Peter Ladner: 21:38

Well, let's be clear. We're not advocates of multi-use paths either, but uh it's not our rankings, but other people who have said by some measures of of uh comfort and convenience and so on, you do have to be.

Brendan Ladner: 21:50

Whistler has Whistler has exactly six feet of protected bike lane. Six total feet of bike-only infrastructure, and it's not even open because they built it and never connected it on either end. There is nowhere in Whistler where bike has priority. Zero kilometers. Any not even one square inch of Whistler prioritizes cycling. Because it's all valley trail, which we is our multi-use path network here, and it says very clearly that pedestrians have right of way, dogs have right of way, the speed limit is 15 kilometers an hour, and that is the core of our cycling infrastructure in Whistler. In fact, that's the entirety of the cycling infrastructure in Whistler. And so uh, as Amanda's already talked about, you're forced into conflict with people who don't want you there. And car drivers who are taking their dogs for walks on the trail really do not want you and your family and your trailer and your kids going 30 kilometers trying to get where you want to go.

Peter Ladner: 22:57

Okay, but let's get back to the politics. You Amanda mentioned you you you talked to the Muni. What do they say? Why do are they actually going to fix it?

Brendan Ladner: 23:06

They throw up their hands. They say, We've got this amazing valley trail. What are you talking about? Why aren't you using it? Why aren't you taking this meandering trail that takes twice as many kilometers to get you where you want to go? That's the they think they've already they've already done it, and they shrug their shoulders because they don't bike.

Amanda Ladner: 23:26

Yeah.

Brendan Ladner: 23:26

The politicians don't bike.

Amanda Ladner: 23:28

Hey, yeah. Cathy bikes.

Brendan Ladner: 23:31

Kathy bikes. But also there is biking of a uh driver's mindset of cyclists who have people who have cars who think car first, and then there's people who only have bikes. And when you only have a bike, you see the world through a different lens. And I think it's psychologically impossible for the people in government in Whistler to think cyclists first. Now they've had since 2012, the tr every transportation plan that's ever been released says we will prioritize biking and walking, yet there is not even one inch of cycle-only trail in Whistler.

Amanda Ladner: 24:10

And it's our number one climate action that they're we're trying to take in our big six climate actions is to encourage people to take to bike and walk, which is so funny. It's like their number one priority, and they're they themselves, the politicians, except for Kathy, don't bike. And I so then I've called them out via letters to the peak newspaper or local saying, have you tried it? Have you actually done it? Because once you do it and you try to get to the library, to the school, right, to to the grocery store, the three most important things, you don't have safe biking. It is not safe. And I need to I need to take my kids to the library and I need to take my kids to the mountain. And so, and so every day we are negotiating our own safety. Every day.

Brendan Ladner: 25:02

And and to do it, you almost have to put your elbows out and take up space on the road so you're not pushed off the road. And by doing so, it is perceived by the drivers that we are creating the conflict when actually we just want to be safe.

Peter Ladner: 25:19

Well, I should say that uh the BC Cycle Coalition and numerous other cycling advocates have been championing a safe passing distance where a car passing a bike would have to keep at least one meter, 1.5 meters away. Uh, I'm not sure that's gonna have a lot of impact in your situation. But uh I wanted to just um change subject slightly. Uh we talked about your you're only with e-bikes. First of all, does it have to be an e-bike? Do you see people who don't have e-bikes but just have regular bikes?

Brendan Ladner: 25:48

It absolutely must be an e-bike. 125%. Uh you have hills, you have weight. You can't take two kids. And then the other thing we haven't even talked about here so far is that you have to have a trailer. Yeah. The trailer is the trunk of the car that you're towing behind your bike. That's how you carry your groceries, that's how you carry your skis, that's how you carry your picnic stuff, your festival chairs, your blankets, your coolers, uh, all of those things. So uh you have to have that, and you can't possibly tow that up a hill pedaling because you'll get you'll start sweating in 10 pedals.

Peter Ladner: 26:21

Okay, so you've got the e-bikes, but and you've mentioned that sometimes you'll be going to Vancouver, so you put the e-bikes in the in the bus because you can't drive to Vancouver in your car. Uh what are other some some other workarounds? You must take taxis at some point, you must rent cars and so on. And if you could just talk about that and also the the savings, you're s yeah, like have you worked out the dollar savings of doing this versus owning a car?

Brendan Ladner: 26:46

Either one of you can Yeah, the uh when uh the average car owner in Canada spends eleven thousand dollars a year on their car. And let's say you're being cheap and you have a beater and you don't have to repair it much, you're probably paying half that much. You know? Um so if you consider your budget of even if it's$500 per month, well, it costs nine cents to fill a bike battery from zero to full. Um so basically the cost of the energy is negligible. Uh which means that there are times where you will take a taxi, but you don't flinch at it because you've saved all this money. Of course, splash on a taxi, treat yourself. You're going out for a nice dinner, you dress nice, take a taxi, of course, take a taxi. If we want to go to uh visit our relatives somewhere else in British Columbia, we rent a car. But you have budget to do that, you don't flinch. And did you know renting a car for an entire month is only fourteen hundred dollars for a brand new car? It's not even that expensive, it's barely much more than owning a car yourself. So we do spend money on those things. Uh and when we go to Vancouver, we take the bus, and what we've learned is gosh, is it more relaxing taking the bus? You don't worry about traffic, you get to go through HOV lanes, and then we get there, we take our bikes out of the bottom and we can zip around Vancouver faster than you could in a car. And it's fun.

Peter Ladner: 28:21

Yeah, how much fun is it? Because we always say that cycling is more fun, but then those people, if you're sitting in your the comfort of your car and you're looking at somebody in the rain and the snow, and the you can't, you wonder, that's not possibly fun. Is it fun?

Brendan Ladner: 28:36

Hell yeah, it's fun. Even in the rain and snow, it's fun. Because when you're in the elements and you're out there, like actually feeling the world on your skin, it feels good.

Amanda Ladner: 28:48

Yeah.

Brendan Ladner: 28:48

And there's no doubt that our kids arrive at school, our teachers have told us this. That the kids arrive at school more invigorated. First of all, they're always properly dressed for school because they had to to get to school. So playtime and stuff, they have the right gear instead of being thrown into a warm car. Uh and we, you know, we chit-chat and we sing and we do all kinds of stuff while we're biking in the elements. And like our kids don't care if it's minus 20 and snowing. They don't even they never mention it. Is it is it a like torrential rainstorm? They don't care. Because they've got the right gear. It's fun. We're just getting over that's how we get around.

Peter Ladner: 29:28

Is it always fun for you, Amanda?

Amanda Ladner: 29:32

Is it always fun? It's both. It's both challenging. And so in that way, it is fun. Um, and uh, you know, I'm gonna be honest, some days it's very uncomfortable, you know. And so we've we're always adapting and trying to make it more comfortable, more safe. And so this is a constant adaptation. And yeah, I've you know, the more comfortable you are, uh, the more, the more you enjoy. Enjoy it. So dress warm uh and on rainy days, uh dress properly, right? So that you arrive in your place and you're you just take off all your stuff. You don't, you know, and then you're you're basically in your clothes. So the nice thing about e-biking is that you'll minorly sweat. So those uh end-of-use facilities that everyone is promoting, sure, that's good. You're it's better just to have a proper hanger for people and boots so that people can basically almost dry their stuff versus having a whole, you don't need a whole shower and stuff, right? That would be involved if you were just cycling to work. Um, so I like that. I like that you don't arrive all sweaty. Um, but you've still been outside enjoying the elements and getting to your place quicker than a vehicle.

Peter Ladner: 30:52

So we're gonna wrap up. And I'd just like to ask both of you to talk to other people in the province, uh, in smaller towns, situations like yours, maybe without a multi-use path. Um what's your what's your sort of general advice, uh overall uh suggestions to them to make this possible in their lives? Brendan.

Brendan Ladner: 31:18

You gotta start doing it. That's the biggest thing. Because the critical mass, the more people that do it, the more people will see that they do it, the more people doing it, the safer it gets. So if you have an e-bike, you have the trailer, you've got all the right gear gear, you've got, you know, not just one set, but probably a second set as well. So that if you come home soaking wet, but you need to go out again in an hour or two, your stuff isn't dry, you've got a second set. It only takes 45 seconds to take all of your wet stuff off and be in your home or office clothes, right? But you've got to start doing it, and then um as a part of that, you're going to be seen doing it, and that will inspire others because we have had other parents in Whistler come to us and say, We've seen you do it every day all winter, so we know it's possible. Like, what do we gotta do? And we are constantly coaching other people in what to do, but we accept coaching as well. We bumped into a woman last winter, she had studded tires on the bike we model we have with these obscure tire size. So we had to ask her, hey, how do you do this? What we're you know, what size? Oh, well, this version of the bike, you have to take the fender off if you want studded tires. This the version you have, you don't need to. And it's those types of things. And then when you're doing it, you're given thumbs ups, you know, you're you're cheering people on, you're given those smiles, but we're all smiling at each other. When we do it, there are smiles shared, and that's the part of what makes it fun.

Peter Ladner: 32:55

Amanda, anything to add to that?

Amanda Ladner: 32:57

Yeah, I just want to add to the real commitment. Uh, all we're asking is that you commit to doing short-term trips. So that's going to the grocery store. Just commit to biking to the grocery store. If you can make that one change, I know everyone says I have to, I have to drive my car to work. Everybody says it. So, okay, you know, but just bike to the grocery store. Just bike your kids to school. That those two things, if you can commit to that, right? And I know a lot of parents drop their kids off before they, you know, drive to work. But really ask yourself, do I need to drive? Do I absolutely need to drive? And define for yourself, like what's what's the distance, right? Do I need to, do I need to drive right now? And if you can walk or bike, walk and bike.

Peter Ladner: 33:50

That's a great note to end on. Amanda Ladner, my daughter-in-law, Brendan, my son. Uh, thank you so much for uh sharing your insights. And uh, I'm sure you're somehow available. Uh, we can certainly make your contacts available through the BC Cycling Coalition if anybody wants to talk to you. And uh, we want to uh encourage anybody listening to join the BC Cycling Coalition so we can keep doing podcasts like this and help uh advance more quickly a safe cycling future for BC. Thanks for listening to Bike Six and supporting Safe Cycling at BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support. Please consider becoming a member. Adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling at BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richard Fuel, ICBC, Moto, and the Bicycle. Visit us at BCcycling.ca.

Read about the Whistler Climate Action Plan at www.whistler.ca/climate-action/big-moves

Please feel free to reach out to Amanda Ladner at amandabelle@gmail.com if you'd like to talk Whistler, bikes, or family cycling.

Kamloops Pediatrician Dr. Trent Smith is a passionate advocate for active transportation, starting with the basics: how our kids get to school.  Dr. Smith talks to Peter about the benefits of getting kids out of cars, building safe routes to school, changing cultural norms around cycling, the success of this spring's 'Drive to 5' pilot project, and how we can start moving the needle beyond major urban centres.

Release date: July 30, 2023

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy. I'm your host, Peter Latin, East Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Dr. Trent Smith. He's a pediatrician in Tamlo. And the medical lead for pediatrics in interior health. And Trent has taken up a very passionate interest in kids getting to school in more active ways than driving. Welcome to the podcast, Trent. Thanks very much, Peter. It's a pleasure to be here. Could you tell me, like, when did you when did the light go on for you about safe routes to school and why that would be important?

Dr. Trent Smith: 1:03

You know, it's been a long kind of, I guess, personal journey to get to the point of understanding that school streets might be a way to address some of the challenges around child health. So, you know, I'm a pediatrician. I've been engaged with child health for the entirety of my professional career. And what's been obvious to me over the years is that the role that physical activity plays in health is obviously becoming understood, but perhaps not emphasized enough in terms of daily physical activity and moving around. And that's caused a lot of thought around what can an individual pediatrician do to try and change that. And so that uh in a rather convoluted way that I'm happy to talk about has has led me to the School Streets program.

Peter Ladner: 1:55

Could you tell us um why is it important? Like what is it, what what's so great about kids being more active generally, and in particular, taking advantage of an opportunity to walk to school? What what happens as a result of that if they if they do get more active?

Dr. Trent Smith: 2:12

Well, I think activity and and exercise in general um has really been shown to be um one of the best things we can do for our overall health. So again, I came at this um really from trying to look at how can I improve the health of my patients. And um I've had a longstanding interest in in child health and childhood obesity and uh chronic disease management. And um, and I've come to the realization that as individual physicians sitting in our offices, there's really not a lot that we can do to prevent uh people from developing these conditions. So doctors are great at treating things. And if you come to me with high blood pressure, you come to me with diabetes, or you come to me with problems with your cholesterol, I mean, all of those things we're fantastic at managing. Um but having an individual conversation with an individual person or family in my office doesn't really change culture to any extent. Uh, and so as um as physicians and and health professionals in general, we're really beginning to understand uh more and more that exercise across the age span really uh is one of the best things that we can do for our health. And that's our physical health, our mental health, our social health. People who are physically active do better on all of those things. And and you know, there's more and more evidence that suggests that although there's been a long-standing focus on people's body size, um, that's probably actually not terribly closely related to their health at an individual level. So what seems to be a much better predictor of overall health and well-being is how physically fit are people rather than what the scale says about how big they are. And so what we've um we amongst the pediatric health group have realized is that it's it's really difficult these days in the way we live our lives to have our kids get enough physical activity. Um, participation Canada, their most recent report shows that uh kids across Canada are scoring a D minus in terms of their letter grade for physical activity. Um, and that looks at things like you know, what do you do on a daily basis, how often are you outside? And I think we've had a long-standing kind of belief in in probably the Western world that physical activity is something that we should do. We should set aside set aside time to go to the gym, or we should sign our kids up for soccer, or we should have them in ballet, you know, all of these things, which are great, but don't tend to promote daily physical activity. And so one of the big challenges um that I've been trying to address through you know advocacy for programs like this is how do we get kids back to being kids where they are outside moving themselves on a daily basis, regardless of what the weather is. And and one of the challenges with compartmentalizing physical activity is it's often the first thing to go. Uh so if the weather's bad or COVID comes and the pool shuts down, or whatever happens, um, then all of a sudden your physical activity level drops. Whereas I'm becoming a bigger and bigger proponent of how do you build in those daily pieces where you're not scheduling it, you're not thinking about it, it's just part of what happens. And and what we see from kids who get that is yeah, their their school performance is better. If they have things like ADHD, it doesn't cure their ADHD, but it might help them manage it better. Um, obviously, their long-term physical health, if you uh adopt early habits around walking and rolling and moving yourself to get places, uh, there's really big benefits down the road in terms of your future risk of diabetes or your future risk of cardiovascular disease or hypertension. So that's really what it's about is trying to figure out how do we automate uh physical activity rather than plan physical activity.

Peter Ladner: 6:10

Do you ever prescribe walk into school to a kid who's having some physical problems? Say here's part of what I want you to do, here's your cure.

Dr. Trent Smith: 6:19

Yeah, you know, I talk to families about it a lot, but again, there's I've moved beyond where this is an individual decision. I think there are so many societal things and cultural things that happen that it it really is often difficult for a family, even when given a prescription, to change. Um that's not to say that we don't do it and talk about it. And and certainly I have had families come back and say, you know, we we did that and it's actually helpful, but it's difficult because if you don't have a sidewalk or or you don't have a bike, or there's a major arterial that doesn't have a safe intersection, or you know, your parents have a fear about these things, then you know, regardless of what might be quote unquote best for your health, as with lots of things with health, people balance their priorities and their fears and their needs and wants, and um ultimately that's what leads to their decision. And so I think a big part of it is is socially changing to make it easier for for people to make those decisions and support their kids.

Peter Ladner: 7:37

Well, I noticed that uh the statistics show that uh 10 years ago or 20 years ago, I'm not sure how many. It used to be that almost 50% of kids would come to school by some form of active transportation, cycling or walking, and now it's just over 10%. What have you what has been your observation and what have you decided to do about it?

Dr. Trent Smith: 8:01

Um there's undoubtedly multiple, multiple factors that have contributed to how all of us get around in the city, and that includes how children get to and from schools and activities. And um I'm not entirely sure that there's any one thing that's driven it. I think there's a number of social constructs, there's um general cultural things that have occurred, um, there's the way that we've built our cities, and I think all of those things have come together to make it so that our culture has now arrived at the conclusion that we should drive our kids to and from school. And I think the undoing of that is really going to require um some substantial changes in in culture. And that's the million-dollar question, I think, is how do you shift culture?

Peter Ladner: 8:50

Well, shifting culture when you're up against a billion-dollar industry that's marketing every day in every way to get people into their cars and into bigger cars and more cars is of course a challenge. But you have done something in Camloops. What did you tell us about what you've done?

Dr. Trent Smith: 9:06

Yeah, so Kamloops, um, and I'd really like to put a plug out to the actually the city and the school district um for jumping on board this um project. What we did was we kind of copied um a program called School Streets, which has was developed in Europe in the late 1990s and is has gradually taken hold and spread through a number of different countries in Europe and in different levels, and then has come to North America and most recently was started in Vancouver. I believe they're now on their fourth year of the School Streets program in Vancouver, um, and has been adopted by a couple of other of the lower mainland communities. Um, and so Kamloops was the first, I'm going to say, um, semi-urban area to to embrace this sort of project. Most of the time, these things seem to happen in in large urban areas. So yeah, we took it on in Kamloops this year, and uh it was great.

Peter Ladner: 10:04

So you did a two-week pilot project in in late May, I understand. And you were going to monitor the results. Do you have any data on how it worked? What changes resulted?

Dr. Trent Smith: 10:18

Yeah, so um we did take on a two-week pilot project. And I and I guess just for people who don't know exactly what school streets might be, it's an area uh of road closure to motor vehicles around a school. So basically what School Streets does is shuts the road down to motor vehicles and opens the road up to use for people, really, people on foot, people on wheels of any sort. Um, and so we we did that around one of the schools in Kowloops for a period of two weeks, coinciding with uh Go by Bike Week. Um, and then looked at um a number of factors uh around wet change. So the city took on some traffic count data looking at motor vehicle movement in and around the school, both before, during, and after the project. And then we did a bunch of um what are called hands-up surveys where teachers within the school asked their students, uh students within their classrooms, how did you get to school today? And they did that again before, during, and after the project. And what we saw was um a reasonable amount of mode shift actually. So um about 30% of people within the school shifted their mode during that uh during that study period, and and the majority actually moved from their car to walking. So the school that was chosen is in an area of town that's quite flat. Um, does have some limitations in terms of there's a major arterial that bisects the school catchment area. Um, but what we saw was that a number of uh children and families chose to walk rather than driving. We saw some uptick in cycling as well, although it was less marked than the shift from automobiles to walking at that particular school.

Peter Ladner: 12:02

Could you describe, you said that you've closed off streets too. How far away from the school did you go with your closure?

Dr. Trent Smith: 12:09

So for us, we did it uh a relatively small area. Um the school we chose is you know largely within a rectangular grid of streets. And so we closed off two of those, which left um sort of an L-shaped area of access to the schools. I learned a lot during this project around um jurisdictions and road use and bus schedules, and you know, there's a there's a number of moving pieces that all have to go into a project uh like this that I will admit I was blissfully unaware when I first floated the idea. Um I think the the big thing is is accommodating school buses uh because many schools act as a hub for children to be picked up or dropped off at that school to go elsewhere. So you so it's um it's essentially impossible to say that the bus can't come and go. Um but we did manage to close off an L-shaped area uh around the school.

Peter Ladner: 13:08

So do you consider kids coming in the buses? They're not they're still getting a ride to school, they're not really being more active. Do you did you do any of these things like dropping them off five minutes walk away and making having them walk the final five minutes?

Dr. Trent Smith: 13:22

Yeah, so that the drive to five uh concept was promoted um to the school beforehand. I think it's a it's a great concept. I don't know if you took the average person on the street and said, Do you know what drive to five is? I'm not sure that that many people would actually understand or or be able to name what it is. So we did some education in the school beforehand and said, hey, look, you know, we recognize that there are a whole bunch of competing factors in terms of um allowing kids to be active on their way to school. There's parents who are on their own way to work who potentially need to be dropping their kids off. Um there are kids who live outside of a one-kilometer uh area. There are parents who had legitimate concerns about young kids crossing the rather major arterial that bisects the school catchment area. So um we did talk about um drive to five, and we did see on our surveys there were there was some uptick. I think about 5% of the um survey population chose to do the drive-to-five. Um, and it, you know, I as a bit of an anecdote, um, I went down to the school on a number of days during the project just to see how it was going and see what was happening. Uh, and it happens that the school is on one of our better bike routes in Cam Whips, actually. And so I rode my bike and passed a family who were uh loading or unloading their scooters out of the back of the SUV a number of blocks away from the school, and the kids were super excited and jumped on their scooters and scooted along the bike path to get to school. So I think those things are are clearly um part of the goal of the program.

Peter Ladner: 14:56

It sounds so weird that you have to go through all these um organizations and struggles and partnerships and collaborations to recreate the situation that used to be somehow prevalent, that was people were felt safe enough and uh secure enough and active enough that they could just walk or cycle to school. But somehow all these barriers seem to have arisen. And uh obviously it takes a lot of partnership and working with all these jurisdictional moving parts. What was that like? Did you spearhead all that? Getting all those people together?

Dr. Trent Smith: 15:34

You know, I I started it, but as I say, I I um I I thought a number of times as we were developing the pilot and and talking about it, is that it feels like perhaps the time is right for these sorts of things because there were a number of uh people from within the school district and within the city, as well as within interior health, that that when they caught wind of it, all said, you know, that's that's kind of under my portfolio. That's part of the goals of what I'm supposed to be doing in terms of climate action and mode shift and healthy lifestyle behaviors. And there's there's a number of different things that fall in amongst programs that different people have. Um, and so I I hesitate to say that I spearheaded it. I I think I kind of felt like I was the guy at the top of the hill who made the snowball and gave it a little bit of a push. Um, and then it really picked up momentum as as a number of partners got on board. And and as I say, people really seemed to feel like actually this is something that that falls under my jurisdiction and and I would like to be part of it. So um the the embracement um from the school district and from the city, I really can't speak highly enough. There were a number of people that made this project happen. I didn't have anything really to do with actually getting it uh up and running other than floating the idea and getting the right people talking to each other, I think.

Peter Ladner: 16:54

Well, I'm very pleased to hear that it's like rolling something down a hill rather than up a hill. Because it's nice to hear that people get it. It seems from you know where I sit and where all of us sit in in the cycling advocacy world, such a complete no-brainer. And why are we making our kids sick and obese by taking them to school in the name of helping them out? But um could you then tell us how, if another community wanted to do this, where would they start and what are the easy or simplest first steps?

Dr. Trent Smith: 17:29

Well, I think that's that's a big part of why I took this on. So um in my role with Interior Health, I'm charged with um evidence-based implementation of things uh for children across interior health. So I really don't want this to be two weeks uh at one school in Kamloops, and everyone, you know, claps their hands and pats each other on the back, and then that's it. Um and I was very clear about that right from the start. That to me, this is something that we really need to start looking at from a cultural lens and and perhaps make it a little bit like the um provincial mandate for speeds within school zones is is start to think about how do we how do we mandate that schools across the province um do a better job of being welcoming to kids uh and less welcoming to cars. So, in terms of other people being interested, and how do you get started? You know, I really think the city plays a major role because ultimately the city is in charge of the streets. So the example I often give is that if a city has to do road work or you know, tear up a sewer line on a street, it doesn't really matter where that street is located. Ultimately, the city has the jurisdiction to say the road is closed. Um, the same thing goes for local streets for projects of any sort. Although I've also learned that even within that, there are other jurisdictions because not all streets within a city belong to the city. There are some which belong to the province. Um, and so depending on where the school is located, there may have to be conversations with provincial jurisdictions around rope A's as well, though those do tend to be fairly major roads and bridges, which would be extremely difficult in our current climate to ever completely close, I think. So largely it comes down to the city and traffic engineering and permitting to be able to say this this street is closed. However, for these projects, I think the school district and the school itself really needs to be involved and on board as well. So although the city could simply say we're closing this street near your school to motor vehicles, I don't think that that's the approach that's likely to really allow this type of program to become a cultural shift. So start with the city. Anyone who's advocating for this kind of thing really does need to speak to their city. Um, and whether that's city leadership in the form of mayor and council or whether that's um we did a lot of work with our transportation team. Um, but different cities, it might be different um members of the city admin team. So healthy communities team might be the ones that that's uh really where you can find a champion within the city. And I think that's the key piece is finding someone within your city who um feels like this is a good idea and something that they want to push and and work with with other city departments to make it happen. And then also enlisting, obviously, the school district and and ultimately identifying a school or schools.

Peter Ladner: 20:35

Trent, when you're selling this to people, why why why do this? What are the benefits? Why is it a good a good idea?

Dr. Trent Smith: 20:43

Um, as you said earlier, Peter, I think there has been a there's been a gradual shift in our culture. Um, one of the anecdotes that that really brought this home to me was uh in my office, I often speak to families about the importance of physical activity. And I often ask kids, you know, where do you go to school? How do you get to school? Um and I had a family who were first generation Canadians. Um, and they told me the name of the school and and where they lived and and that they drove to school. And I happened to know the school quite well in the area, and I said, Well, wait a minute, like can't you see the school from your house? And they said, Oh yeah. And I said, Well, but why do you drive? And they looked at me like I was a asking a dumb question, and they said, Well, but everyone in Canada drives their kids to school. And and so they had never really like that it sort of was one of those light bulb moments for me where I said, you know, that you're right, like you're not you're not making a mistake. You're doing what everyone does. And you are trying to assimilate, you're trying to be the Canadian that you want to be, and you have looked around you and quite intelligently said, everyone here drives their children to school. That must be what we have to do. Um, and so I think that just speaks to the fact that it has become part of our culture and it's it's sort of an accepted norm. Um, and so in in terms of what we could do to try and shift that, I think it does need to be multi-pronged. I think it it needs to be part of the point of these programs is to get people to think about it, right? Because I think lots of people don't sort of think. They look around and they go, well, that's how everyone gets to school, and I have to get to work and I'm driving, and so I'm gonna take my kids. Um, there are certainly safety concerns uh that people have. And and one of the things that we did hear about our project from a number of people actually, and I thought the feedback was quite legitimate, was that um the feedback was, well, you guys, that's all well and good that you close the streets around the school, but I don't live next to the school. I live six or seven blocks away, and between my house and where the safe zone is, there's no way to get there, or there's no way that I feel comfortable sending my child there. So these sorts of programs certainly do have to be part of bigger picture things like safe routes to schools and better urban design. Um people have told me that they're worried that uh they can't let their kids go to school on their own because social services might get called because it's um not safe to have a child of nine or ten walking on their own to school. So, you know, that's also a uh a perception that's out there that people don't want to let their kids go independently to school because that might then mean a knock on their door. So I think all of these things are things.

Peter Ladner: 23:26

Does that ever happen? Is that a real fear?

Dr. Trent Smith: 23:30

Uh you know, that's a good question. Is it an urban legend or is it real? I mean, there have been reports of of people, um, again in bigger urban centers who've had their kids traveling by bus or SkyTrain or whatever, and and someone has said, you know, where's your mom? And the child says, well, they're at home. I'm going to whatever, and and they make the news. Now, whether that's a frequent occurrence or whether that's much like many things in our world where you hear about it on the news one time and you think that it's a common occurrence, that I can't speak to. I don't think there's a a ministry policy um that speaks to it.

Peter Ladner: 24:14

So if another community wanted to do this, uh where would where would somebody, if I'm a parent and I I think I'd really like to get my kid more active, but I'm concerned about all these things you said, unsafe routes and so on. Um where do they start? Do they start with the school saying to the city we need some more safety around here? Or do they go to the city and say we need sidewalks or we need bike routes? Where does it start?

Dr. Trent Smith: 24:42

I think for um school streets type program, I really do think that uh as these things become more and more um socially accepted or popular, whatever you want to say. I think that as parents um going to your school principal or going to your school district leadership and saying, Hey, why are we not doing this in our school district or why are we not doing this at our school? And what do we need to do to make it happen at our school? Um and then from there, um having a champion and it and it could be the parent champion who also goes to the city and says, Hey, uh, we need some help with this. This helps with our city's stated climate goals or our mode shift goals or whatever. And and as I said, with our project, we really found a number of people who were willing to champion it at the city level. Um, but I do think I'm hopeful that we'll get more and more grassroots. So I kind of view the CamOops project was a little bit top-down in that I didn't have a child at the school that we did the pilot in, and it sort of was an idea that came through the city. Uh, I think there's room for that. I think there is certainly the possibility for any city transportation planners or clean air advocates listening to this podcast who might say, oh, you know, actually we could potentially do that. But I also think there's a lot of room for bottom-up to have a parent who's looking around at their child in their school and says, you know, I think we could do better to take that forward. And I'm hopeful that they would receive um the kind of reception that I got uh here in Camloops.

Peter Ladner: 26:20

So, Trent, before we wrap up, you've done the two-week project, and as you said, you don't want to have it end there. Ideally, this would be happening at all schools at all times. How do you go from your two-week project to scaling it up and make now that you've learned something, what will it take to make that more prevalent in other areas?

Dr. Trent Smith: 26:43

Well, Camloops, uh, we've already started planning and we're gonna make it happen again next year. We hope in more than one school, um, and we hope for a little longer than the two-week period. Um, as part of my interior health role, I'm also um planning once school is up and running in September to reach out to other cities. I've had some interest from other cities about uh doing something similar, and obviously it's a little more difficult because I'm not a resident of other cities, um, but I'm hoping that uh across interior health we'll get another couple of communities on board. And I guess that's really um how I would envision this happening is it gets momentum in in some key areas, starts to become something that people hear about and think that they would like to see in their community or their child's school and start advocating for it. And um when I started this uh in giving talks to try and get people on board, I used the analogy of of um cigarette use in BC. So I'm old enough to remember when you can go to the restaurant and the bar and and smoke. And I was actually in university when um when they first started to make some night spots, non-smoking and and the uproar. And you know, if you look at old newspaper clippings, the entire hospitality industry was gonna fold because no one would go out if they weren't allowed to smoke. And and it ultimately took a city of Vancouver uh leadership as a local bylaw for the for the non-smoking that then gradually rolled out and ultimately became a provincial law that the province took on and mandated across the province. And I would view this as kind of a similar sort of thing. As I said, there's already 30 kilometer an hour speed limits around all schools, but I think ultimately where I would like to see this uh go is that there's a recognition on the part of the province that we shouldn't be driving that close to schools and that all schools end up with areas that are close to motor vehicle traffic.

Peter Ladner: 28:41

Well, that's the mandate of the BC Cycling Coalition to get out of the lower mainland and address some of these issues that are peculiar to the smaller communities. And I I completely take your point that you've got a much bigger challenge. Very often, uh, you mentioned the provincial government and the the highway is really in some of these streets, it's the main street. And if you want to go anywhere or do anything, you gotta be on the highway. And then what happens? You know. Yeah.

Dr. Trent Smith: 29:05

You know, it's one of those things that I was super proud about about bringing this kind of project outside of the urban environment. Because if you look at the infrastructure and and you get the mode share in the lower mainland in terms of people um who ride, it's vastly different than well, then here. And then I just was in Quinnell two days ago on my bike, and and you know, they have nothing. Um, they have some share rows here and there, and and that's about it. So yeah, it's uh it's one of the things that I really was impressed with was that we took it on because that these things tend not to be as embraced in communities um that are our size and certainly smaller than us. Yeah. And you know, a lot of these things are such big social pieces um that again, I think you just have to start somewhere and say, you know, we're not doing it right. Um Um the pendulum has perhaps swung too far in one direction. How do we how do we swing that pendulum back? And what are the pieces that we could put into place to start swinging that? But um yeah, school streets is a very small, a very small piece, but I'm hopeful that um it's the start of something and at least gets people thinking. And I think you know, you get people thinking about the way they do stuff, and then that's how you can start gradually shifting other people's minds and and habits.

Peter Ladner: 30:29

Fantastic. Well, all the best, and we we really wish you wish you well in your project and your continuing efforts to do this, and uh and hopefully this will become as obvious as not smoking to improving kids' health and and well-being and academic performance. Thanks so much, Trent. Thank you, Peter. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening to Bike Sense and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, BC Hydro, Richards Buell Sutton, ICBC, Moto, and the Bicycle Pro. Visit us at BCcycling.ca.

Read more about the City of Kamloops Safer School Streets HERE.

To exchange ideas, contact trent.smith@interiorhealth.ca

Peter Ladner talks to Matt Vader,  Director of Parks, Recreation & Culture, District of Lake Country, about the amazing 50-km Okanagan Rail Trail starting at the north end of Kalamalka Lake and ending at Okanagan Lake in downtown Kelowna.  

Release date: July 19, 2023

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to BikeSense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today I'm talking with Matt Bader, who's the chair of the Okanagan Rail Trail Committee. His day job is he's Director of Parks, Recreation, and Culture for the District of Lake Country. Welcome, Matt.

Matt Vader: 0:38

Thank you, Peter.

Peter Ladner: 0:40

We're going to talk about the Okanagan Rail Trail. And for those of us who have never been on it, Matt, could you just give us a quick overview? What is it?

Matt Vader: 0:50

So it is a discontinued CN rail corridor that runs from the waterfront in Kelowna to kilometer zero. It's called in Cold Stream. There is a gap that we're working on with our partners, about six kilometers, including an addition to reserve. But for now, it is being used both on the north and south with that with that gap needed.

Peter Ladner: 1:11

So people come in from the north and go to the as far as they can go and go back, and the same from the south, which is in downtown Kelowna.

Matt Vader: 1:18

Downtown Kelowna, exactly. And also in Lake Country, we have a route, a multi-u-use uh corridor called Pelmawash Parkway that does a loop of Wood Lake that connects to the rail trail. So it's about a perfect half-marathon length, so you can actually ride around Wood Lake entirely as well.

Peter Ladner: 1:33

In a full loop. Oh, how nice. In a full loop, yes. The pictures on your website look fantastic. People going to the by Calamalca Lake, and they can go, you can go swimming and bird watching and all of that. So, how did this come to be?

Matt Vader: 1:57

Similar to many cities within Canada, you know, manufacturing has declined from the peaks of the 70s and 80s, and KPR in 2014 couldn't make a go of it anymore on that line. And CN has their main operating line, which runs uh through cam loops. So discontinued this, and there's a process that offices it federally, provincially, uh, provincial other end agencies, and then the municipalities ourselves, City of Kelowna, Regional District, North Okanagan, and Okanagan Indian Band acquired this uh in June 2015, actually. So tomorrow actually will be the eighth year uh from when we acquired it.

Peter Ladner: 2:33

So how does that happen? Like you just described four different jurisdictions that had to come together. Who's who who got this started, or how did it was it cycling people or municipal elected officials, or who came up with the idea?

Matt Vader: 2:48

I'd say a little bit of all that. It has been an extremely strong community-driven uh initiative from the very beginning in terms of acquisition. Obviously, the municipal partners, so Kelowna, US, and Regional District, North Okanagan, acquired it financially from uh CN under the acquisition, but the construction of it was actually funded through donations and grants uh completely.

Peter Ladner: 3:09

So let's just start with the acquisition. Uh it you somebody had to come up with was it$22 million?

Matt Vader: 3:15

Approximately, yes. Um that was the three partners. So we had uh appraisals done on each of the sections. So they are fee simple parcels. The rail corridor is, it's not uh continuous. So I I a hundred and there's hundreds of different parcels within there. So the city of Kelowna acquired the parcels that were within the city boundaries, district of late country similarity in our boundaries and regional district, North Okanagan. So they're owned fee simple as a as a registered title with land titles.

Peter Ladner: 3:41

So now you've got the property, and then what happened? You had to get the community had to get together and raise some money to to maintain to degrade it or change the construct a path there. How did that happen?

Matt Vader: 3:52

Absolutely. So there was a there's a group called Okanagan Rail Trail Initiative, so ORTI, uh, which was a big fundraising uh spearhead uh led by many members of the community, and they actually were in uh integral in terms of the acquisition, not financially, but in terms of support within the community to show that this is a fantastic opportunity to acquire a contiguous corridor uh 50 kilometers long between two major, fairly major multiple or metropolitan centers between Verdon and Kelowna. Um but they really spearheaded there's bobble drives from schools, there was bake sales, there was pub nights, uh, there was donate per meter. So there's a number of different initiatives through this group that raised um, I believe the fundraising component was five and a half million dollars. And then additionally, to get to our full budget, the remainder was in grants, both provincially and federally.

Peter Ladner: 4:40

And what did you get for that? Describe some of the amenities along the trail.

Matt Vader: 4:44

Uh so it is the discontinued corridors, you know, the rail trail is a portion of the corridor, but obviously there's a railbed. Uh so that was a constructed, engineered surface. So we had we did have it engineered, so it's actually holding up quite well. So you got the soon-to-be entirety of it constructed. Uh, there's also interpretive sites along the way of uh known areas that were important. Uh also there's another offshoot group now called Friends of Okanagan Rail Trail, which is more in terms of stewardship, fundraising for addition different amenities. Uh, there's a site called Colometer Zero that they've been working on with Okanagan Indian Band that identifies the historical significance of that area, uh interpretation uh of Silk uh traditional cultures and continued use of the area, just recognizing we all are on unceded lands and in the Okanagan, it is the uh Silk Okanagan people, so recognizing the importance of uh the traditional lands we're on. Uh so there's a number of initiatives. All of our signs, wayfinding signs, have uh the translation in in silics and um identify different locations along this along the way.

Peter Ladner: 5:56

But let's talk about the there's still some work to do. You've got a gap in this in this, and what is the gap and how are you going to fill it?

Matt Vader: 6:05

Uh so the gap runs from just north of uh Kelowna Airport into Beaver Lake Rhodes Gulf. So it's about six and a half kilometers. A portion of it uh is within or will be within reserve. So it was back in the 20s removed from reserve. So the process is you know, addition to reserve, so it has to be added back. Um, you know, reserves are held in deemed benefit for indigenous peoples. So it was a big step for an Indigenous community uh to add back and you know, really goes almost against the principles of reserve is inviting the public on it in terms of Okanagan Indian band and their openness to you know engage with the public and openness to uh be a partner with this for the last eight years. So I give them a lot of credit for being able to um, you know, work with work with the public and the community to be an integral partner for what this project is.

Peter Ladner: 6:53

What's your best guess as to when that gap is going to be completed?

Matt Vader: 6:57

We're actively working with uh the federal government, uh Okanagan Indian Band and the Partners on the Trail. So our our hope is that it is constructed in 2023, that remaining gap.

Peter Ladner: 7:08

So even with the gap, describe the usage of it. You uh there there are many people who do this. Do they do they go for walks to take their dogs? Are they on sort of bike bike tours? Are the tourism operators cashing in on this?

Matt Vader: 7:23

I'd say a little bit of all the above. Uh if you look at there's different sort of demographics and environments that it uh works through. So downtown Kelowna is uh obviously almost 140,000 people uh city, and this runs right down through the downtown core. Within Kelowna, it is paved, so it is used as an active transportation mode, which is fantastic because there's a number of uh connections, and City of Kelowna's done a fantastic job of highlighting those um integral points where the community can get on and off and cycle through the community or walk through the community, both for recreation and um active transportation. Once you get into, say, north of Kelowna, Passy Airport, uh, you get into lake country, it's a bit more rural, and we we have kept it at an aggregate standard. Uh so there's recreation, there is the transportation, the active transportation, but a lot more recreation. And that's similar to regional district, North Okanagan, the portion that's significantly along Kalamilca Lake. Um, obviously, when you have you know 20 plus kilometers of lakefront, a lot of it being along Kalamilca Lake, it is a great opportunity to get down to the water and see the water in a unique area. So the use is a little bit of it's one of those multi- you know, when you use the term multi-use, it is one of those, one of those corridors that is multi-use, and you can use it for a number of different elements. Walking, riding, uh, both commuting. You know, you can ride from Vernon now without being on a highway to Lake Country if you work in one or the other and live in the other, similar to Kelowna. Um, so again, it's use, you know, walking the dogs, e-bikes, regular bikes, kids, you know, the whole 8 to 80 sort of sequence of, you know, eight-year-olds and 80-year-olds can use it equivalently. It's you know, under 2% grade holistically through it, so it's it's usable for all user groups, as well as people with mobility challenges.

Peter Ladner: 9:00

I want to go. Uh what about in the winter? Do you plow it, sand it?

Matt Vader: 9:07

Uh in Kelowna, so in Kelowna, UBCO is actually on the outskirts of you know where the where the population core is. So it actually is treated as a priority one equivalent of a road, so it is plowed as would be their arterial roads to allow students and faculty to commute both from the population centers to UBCO. So it is heavily used in the winter there. In Lake Country, we um we plow, we'll call it, but it is a you know a gravel surface, so we try not to scrape the top of the surface, but we we plow half of it within the where the majority of the population is to be able to walk without truncing through the ice and snow. And the other side we leave unplowed for opportunities for snowshoeing or cross-country skiing or um whatever people would want to use that component for.

Peter Ladner: 9:48

Do you have a special little plow for the paved parts that you have to the city had to get?

Matt Vader: 9:53

Uh it's just a little bit smaller. I wouldn't say it's specialized by any means, but it'd be something that you see more on sidewalk components rather than a big uh snowplow itself, because the surface is approximately four and a half-ish meters. So um I wouldn't suggest putting uh a loaded snow plow in there, but they do use a smaller machine, similar to what we do. We we uh put a basically a rubber wheel on the bottom so it doesn't scrape and it allows it to bounce a little bit, but just on the gravel surface to create a walking path.

Peter Ladner: 10:20

So, Matt, there are a lot of communities in BC that have abandoned rail beds. Uh, is there anything you could suggest to them if they want to do something like this in their community? Like best practices or ways to approach CN or get support for this?

Matt Vader: 10:37

I would say community involvement is absolutely critical and partnership, especially with Indigenous communities. Uh our First Nation partners, obviously, as I said before, we are all on unceded territory uh with NBC with the lack of treaties historically. Um the role of the Indigenous partners is extremely critical in terms of recognizing the relationship between the Crown because of where typically the rail corridors came from back, you know, 100-ish years ago. Uh having the local Indigenous community is extremely important and recognizing historical use of the land. Uh also partnerships. I'd say that between Kelowna, us and Regional District North Okanagan, it's not often that you get municipal partners working on regional initiatives. And I think that that is a key component. It's very rare that you'd have one corridor within one jurisdiction that you have, you know, full autonomy to do what you want. So you have to create relationships both with communities and the other partners to be successful.

Peter Ladner: 11:32

So thinking about your the indigenous communities and partner, is there an actual aside from the land title, are there people actually living in and around this route and is it serving the indigenous communities in any particular way?

Matt Vader: 11:46

So with Okanagan Indian Band, Duck Lake IR number seven uh is the portion that is looking to be the addition to reserve components. So it would actually, you know, when when we're completed and when we get to that point, actually run through reserve. Um in terms of indigenous peoples in general, I would say that obviously the the corridor and the rail trail itself is open to all people. There's there's no need to uh there is opportunities for interpretation, maybe learning more about uh uh Silk people learning more about Silk uh knowledge that maybe they didn't fully know or haven't spoken to elders about. I think there's opportunities for the signage and the information sharing that would be beneficial for all parties.

Peter Ladner: 12:28

So is there anything uh that you that you think people need to know that you'd like to bring up that I haven't asked you about?

Matt Vader: 12:36

I think a lot of this is how do we make connections? So if you look at the role that um BC Parks has played, and you look at, say, the TransCanda Trail, um, how do we make connections from all these networks and you know have a holistic cycling network? So it's not just segmented and fragmented. This gives people the ability to see all different types of environment. And I think Okanagan Rail Trail is a perfect example. You've got the urban component, which is mostly in Kelowna, you've got the rural-ish component, which is Lake Country, which is a growing community and has some urban elements, but also rural, and then you've got the portion of uh regional district that does run significantly between a rock face and Kalamelca Lake. You have all these different environmental factors that you can see within one day of riding. I do remember going out the first time I went to this one section on Wood Lake, and there is a large stand of fully mature pine trees, and there were six bald eagles up nesting in this area, and I had never been down there before because it was an active rail line before, and just the ability to see bald eagles nesting, you know, 10 minutes away from the tennis court and the soccer pitch is fantastic to give people that opportunity. Uh, and that's really what we've tried to do with the rail trail is create a vision and an entity, create it as an entity to itself. And what is this persona? What do we want the rail trail to be as a community? That's really been our driving factor is creating this persona and your opportunity to um be in nature and be exposed to all these different things while also being, you know, at the front door of an international airport. It's it's a great opportunity to have many people explore this.

Peter Ladner: 14:02

Matt, coming uh speaking as somebody who's living in an urban area, every time someone wants to put a any kind of bike route in or around in and around a city, there's pushback. Have you had any pushback on this or has it been widely supported?

Matt Vader: 14:18

The District of A country had to go to a referendum to uh borrow the money to acquire the 50%. So we we had to deal with City of Kelowna where they would pay 50%, and District of A country paid 50%, and we uh paid them back that 50% over time. I'd say there's pushback financially, as there is on many things that government does. That's there's never a holistic 100% or 0% support or against. Uh District of LA Country did go to referendum in 2015 to acquire this, and it was the largest voter turnout in the history of any municipal election in late country with a three to one in favor. So 75% um favorable support. So I would say that the community spoke as a whole. Obviously, it's not unanimous uh as no vote really is, but the community as a whole supported the acquisition of that and then the development of it. And again, the role of the community I can't I can't highlight enough in terms of the fundraising and you know the contribution. People feel that it's not been um dictated to them, but they've been a part of it in fundraising, you know, have a bit of an ownership component. And you know, that really leads to stewardship and people taking care of of it as if they they own it themselves, which you know, really as a community and a public, we really they really do, but they take that next step on the contribution with donations and and treat it really as quite a special entity.

Peter Ladner: 15:28

So when you look about the care and maintenance of this, uh who does that? You you mentioned community people. Are there volunteers who go and I don't know, clean the outhouses or make sure the picnic tables are working properly?

Matt Vader: 15:41

Um no, significantly that's part of our parks functions within each of the elements. So we, you know, you need to have mowers, you need to be trained on how to use equipment. It is a 50-kilometer long corridor, so it's not just something that takes an hour here and an hour there. So we do have our park staff maintaining this, trimming back the trees to ensure you know sight lines, picking up garbage. There's uh a number of garbage cans and stopping spots, uh, all-year-round bathrooms, horta potties. So uh we have professional people and employed people, but also the friends of the Okanagan Rail Trail that I mentioned before, a lot of theirs is about stewardship, invasive species. So managing, you know, hound's tooth and um a lot of those different invasive weeds. They they do undertake uh some of that work. We have community groups come out and you know pick a the similar to adopt a road program, they pick a section of the trail and pick up garbage. Uh so I uh there's no one solution. You know, most of the maintenance function is on the municipal staff, which is where it should be as you know, the owner and the responsible party and the the party that has the trained uh staff of that, but there is a lot of community involvement in terms of uh maintenance and operation of it as well.

Peter Ladner: 16:48

Um how much has the community uh has the tourism industry embraced this? Do you are is it being marketed outside the community? Come to Kelowna and enjoy the Okanagan Rail Trail.

Matt Vader: 17:00

Absolutely. So we've been fortunate enough to have a great relationship with Toda, so Thompson Okanagan Tourism Association, as well as uh Tourism Vernon and Tourism Kelowna. Uh been successful with all the partners on destination BC grants with Tourism Kelowna on highlighting. And a lot of those videos, if you go to OkanaganRail Trail.ca.com, uh, have been created through those initiatives, uh, looking to identify and highlight the sections of it, what the uses could be, the diverse user groups, both mobility and just demographically. So I think tourism, you know, once we have that connection made, I think it would be a lot even stronger to, you know, show that the connection's there. Um, but I I think that tourism has really benefited and been supportive of it in terms of what this is and the great amendy for the region.

Peter Ladner: 17:43

Matt, it sounds like a great amenity for the province. And uh, I'd love to come next time I'm up there for sure. I'm gonna test it out and check it out because uh wow, bald eagles nesting and beaches and easy roads into the city, out of the city, uh, lake views. It sounds fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing this information with us. And uh I look forward to hearing about the gap getting filled.

Matt Vader: 18:08

Not a problem at all. I appreciate your time and uh your support for cycling initiatives in the province.

Peter Ladner: 18:12

Thanks, Matt.

Matt Vader: 18:13

Thank you.

Peter Ladner: 18:18

Thanks for listening to BikeSense and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors Strider Bike, Richard Spuell Sutton LLP, and ICBC. Visit us at BCcycling.ca

Okanagan Rail Trail - Where Will It Take You? 

Learn why this is more than a trail, and how to celebrate and join the community spirit in giving back to this treasured amenity. okanaganrailtrail.ca

As Mayor of Tofino, Josie Osborne was a prime mover of the spectacular multi-use trail from Tofino to Ucluelet, through Pacific Rim National Park on the west coast of Vancouver Island.

Join host Peter Ladner in conversation with Josie, who talks beach bikes, goats, chickens and eggs, and which comes first: the chicken (bicycle infrastructure) or the egg (ridership)?

Release date: June 23, 2023

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Tips, the Beastie Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in the Eastie. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the Beastie Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. I'm here today with a very special guest. We're very lucky to have with us, uh, and I'm going to name her importance to us in descending order, uh, the Minister of Energy, Mines, and Low Carbon Innovation for BC, Josie Osburn. She's also the MLA for the Mid-Iland Pacific Rim since 2020. And probably most important to us for this podcast, she's the former mayor of Tefino from 2013 to 2020. Josie, I know you're a biologist by training and you have some animals and bikes. Tell us about your animals and bikes.

Josie Osborne: 1:04

I uh indeed, I am a biologist by training. I love animals, especially any creatures that live in the sea. But on land, I have been fortunate enough to have goats and chickens and dogs and cats all as a part of my life.

Peter Ladner: 1:21

It must be a little tricky when you're traveling around a lot and in Victoria a lot to uh keep up with all of that.

Josie Osborne: 1:28

You've got to have a really good house sitter, but people love to take care of chickens, so it's not too difficult.

Peter Ladner: 1:35

So tell me about your cycling history. How many bikes do you have?

Josie Osborne: 1:40

Uh well, uh currently I have four bicycles. Uh, it's because they need to be distributed around the province. So I have two bicycles in Tofino, where I live, and then I have a bicycle uh in Victoria as well. And then I have this fourth bicycle that's been kicking around, but it's kind of, I think it's at the end of its life. It's been a beach bike, so it's gotten really rusty and salty, and I think it's actually destined for the recycling.

Peter Ladner: 2:08

So that's a very special Tefino thing, the beach bike, where you can get sand in the gears and or maybe have special protection to get from not getting sand in the gears.

Josie Osborne: 2:17

Well, some folks do have special bikes, I think, but the the trick is really just taking really good care of it. So if you are going to ride your bike on the beach, then when you get home, rinsing it right away with as much fresh water as you possibly can. But then sometimes, you know, you get distracted or you move on to something else. And so a lot of folks just have simple one-speeds, uh, you know, pretty cheap and affordable bikes that you can ride around. Fat tires works well on the sand, too.

Peter Ladner: 2:41

Well, speaking of fat tires and riding around, we are particularly interested in Up's Chic Tashi, which is the multi-use path that goes from Tefino to Eucluet, which is recently completed, although I gather it's not fully completed. And tell us about riding the path. You must have ridden it before or probably many times.

Josie Osborne: 3:02

It is absolutely spectacular. You know, people on the west coast of Vancouver Island living in Tefino or Euchlet or in the region have long had this vision for being able to safely ride their bikes all the way down the west coast. But it's only now that that vision has come to fruition. And it's just this incredible winding path through the forest, uh, sometimes right alongside the highway, but often sort of wending its way off into the forest and uh, you know, a few hills and valleys, some bridges. It's a very exciting path, but it's just it's so peaceful to be on it and to know that you're off the highway, you're out of your car, you're getting exercise, you're spending time with family and friends. And it's not, you know, I guess it depends on how long you or how fast you cycle, but it's just a a couple hours of a leisurely bike ride, really, between Tefino and Eucoolet.

Peter Ladner: 3:56

Well, it I I understand it's 76 kilometers return if you were That sounds about right.

Josie Osborne: 4:02

Yeah.

Peter Ladner: 4:02

And do you normally just go out and back a little bit or do you go to Eucoolet for coffee and all the time?

Josie Osborne: 4:08

Well, my way myself, I don't go to Eucoolet for coffee. I think if I had an electric bike, I might try to do that, and and folks probably do. But for me, the easiest thing is just to go down to Long Beach, and so that's about 12 kilometers south of Tefino and back and forth makes for a really nice ride. But it's also just nice to to go a few kilometers onto the Up's cheek Tashi and have that, again, that sense of immersion in the forest.

Peter Ladner: 4:33

Sounds fantastic. Now I know that a lot of it's in the park, and uh there are some features that people can visit along the way. Can you talk about those? You've mentioned Long Beach, but there's a rainforest trail and whales.

Josie Osborne: 4:50

That oh yeah, you sure can. So the trail goes um the whole length of Pacific Rim National Park Reserve from the south to the north boundary. And there's a spur that goes off down Wick Road, so down towards the Interpretive Center and Wiccaninish Beach, Florencia Bay. But all of the places that you could stop in your car, you can also stop on your bike. So you can go to Comer's Beach or the Rainforest Trail or Long Beach, and I already mentioned Florentia and Wiccaninish. You can get anywhere that a car can get. You can do that on your bicycle. But the the bike path takes you into some kind of secret neat places throughout the park that you wouldn't get to see if you were just in your car. And you also travel through uh Toloquet First Nations uh two communities, um, up uh the uh Tayastanis and Essa Wista. So it's good to be careful there because it's not an invitation to go cycle around their community, but it you do get to kind of skirt along the edge of it and have a good look there. And uh you can stop and get off, of course, at any point.

Peter Ladner: 6:00

You mentioned the First Nations communities, and something we hear a lot about in people talking about getting these kind of trails and roads together is partnerships. And this one would have had partnership with the First Nations community, a big partnership with Parks Canada, and of course the municipalities at either end, the regional district. Can you talk a little bit about putting all that together? And did you have a role in that?

Josie Osborne: 6:24

I sure can talk about that. So, first of all, it's probably important to know that before there was ever an idea coming from Park Pacific Rim National Park Reserve about creating this trail in the park, that both the communities of Tefino and Euchlulet had visions of separated dedicated bike lanes or bike paths that would keep kids safe when they were cycling to school or keep pedestrians safe as they were walking along the side of the highway. Tefino and Euclulit are both pretty rural, small communities, and they don't we don't have the same road sizes or highway widths that you might find in other parts of the province. So for over 25 years, parents and local business leaders, community leaders have been working towards these trails. And so Tefino and Eucloolet both had have ends to the two trails. Uh, but it was when it was 2016 when the federal government announced their budget and said we're going to put money into a dedicated bike lane trail in Pacific Rim National Park Reserve that the lights really went on, and we all realized, wow, this is an incredible opportunity to join our two communities. We each have the ends of a connection, but we don't have the middle part. And that's where Parks Canada came in. So they began a planning process that included First Nations right from the get-go and talking with uh the nations about the routing of the path, what areas to steer towards or to steer away from, working with the two communities as well as the local regional district, the Albernie Clockworth Regional District. And it does take partnership. It takes everybody coming together. We also realized at the Tefino end, though, that our path didn't go far enough south, that even if the park started their path at the north end, we needed to connect. So that really kind of lit a fire for us. And we applied to as much infrastructure funding programming as we could. I went all the way to Ottawa to speak to Catherine McKenna, who was the Minister of Environment at the time, about just how important this was and the work that she was leading in the Pacific Room National Park Reserve, you know, had to work well with Tefino. And and it really was that kind of partnership and multiple funding agencies to come together and pull this all off.

Peter Ladner: 8:43

That sounds fantastic. And you got money, I understand, from the federal government.$51 million?

Josie Osborne: 8:50

Well, there, yeah, there's there's quite, I mean, it turns out these bike paths are quite expensive to build. It's actually kind of shocking. But in the park, of course, there's a really high environmental standard that needs to be met. And so there are a number of studies looking at species at risk, looking at the particular engineering and the crossing of different creeks and streams that needed to be accounted for. So that's you know, that's a significant cost. And the federal government paid for that portion of the trail that runs through the park. On the Tofino end, we had a variety of sources of funding, including the province of BC with some active transportation planning. We even had assistance from ICBC, for example, with some of their pedestrian safety planning, the Resort Municipality Initiative at BC, and then we had federal infrastructure funding as well. And it really, it's like pieces of a puzzle. You've got to pull all of this together in order to make it happen. And then you finally get the funds amassed, and then you put out a request for proposals and get construction companies to bid on it. So we were able to complete our end in Tefino actually long before the park trail was finished, but that's okay because in the end it's all matched up and the trails are all meeting. But uh yeah, it is it is in the order of um$50 plus million dollars. And that's uh for yeah, probably about 40 kilometers of trail, all told.

Peter Ladner: 10:14

Well, I like as a cyclist, I like to point out that that sounds like a lot when you're thinking about from nothing, but when you compare it with building a road and a highway, which we do without blinking, uh it's very much more affordable. Um tell me about the use of the park. Has it been popular? Do people come to Tefino just to use it, or do you clue it?

Josie Osborne: 10:35

Well, I think they do. I don't have any statistics myself. I know there's some counters on the trail, so I can't tell you exactly how many people are using it, but we know that there's families and uh people who look specifically for these kinds of opportunities. There are bike trails out in Canmore area, for example, and we know that people travel out there with their bikes and they want that experience, and now they're coming out to the West Coast as well. It's one more activity that makes a visitor's experience that much fuller, but it is attracting people who specifically want to do this. They specifically want to be able to ride their bikes between Tefino and Ukulula and to be able to ride through the forest, through the park. And uh, every single account that I hear from folks is about how much they love it, just how peaceful it is and how incredible it feels to be surrounded by this beautiful landscape and and all of these trees. And it just makes us, I mean, bike riding is already fun, makes us feel good, feels healthy, feels terrific. You do that surrounded by greenery, and maybe you have the chance of spotting an animal or something like that. It's it's pretty thrilling.

Peter Ladner: 11:42

Well, and you mentioned environmental protection, and I I read that there's actually at least one amphibian underpass on this trail so that frogs can get underneath it. Uh so obviously it's been built to a very high level of concern and consideration. But you've talked about how much people love doing this, and uh I there was the community all got behind it. We hear this story in other places, and yet there aren't all that many of these kind of trails around. Why do you think that is?

Josie Osborne: 12:14

Well, I think it requires several ingredients for success, and the number one ingredient is that local community vision and drive. You have to really want this. In Tefino, it has taken us decades to see this vision come forward. And it started back in the 80s with parents who wanted safer ways for their children to get to school, who literally ran bake sales and uh bottle drives to be able to raise funds and slowly begin to work with the municipal recreation program and build small sections of trail that really kind of helped this whole big vision come forward. And I think the the without that community drive and vision, it's you know it's really hard to get something like this launched. Then it takes a lot of patience and persistence and partnership. So it's about reaching out and talking to connected or local nearby communities about what the potential is. Of course, in this day and age, we know that no partnership is possible without the work that we do with First Nations and making sure that we have their consent and their support and uh and and their perspective as a as a part of a project from the very beginning. And then the the patience in fundraising and advocating and working is a key part as well. As a former mayor, when when I was mayor, I would talk to a lot of other local leaders around the province, and they often would ask me, well, you know, we we don't we'd love to see a bike trail like this on the Sunshine Coast or somewhere up in northern BC. And how did you do it? So I just tell the story of the vision and the persistence that we've had on the West Coast and encourage them to continue doing that. I would also say that sometimes, you know, we dream really big and we want to build 40 kilometers of path right away. But I think what we saw on the West Coast is that we just started with a few hundred meters, and that's what it takes. So people see that this works, that it's safe, it feels good, they want to add more, they want to extend it. And so no, no portion is too small and and start start there.

Peter Ladner: 14:20

I love that, and I think it's it's it's a show-don't tell when people get and see what and feel what this is like, then you don't have to tell them about it. They they just get it. But there is also the issue of gaps, and uh a bike trail that's got gaps really misses a lot. In fact, it's it's sort of half you know, a tiny fraction of what it could be. And uh I wondered if you could say anything about the need the importance of continuity and when you've done your few hundred meters, how you've got do you how important is it you've got the whole thing um completed so that you can go smoothly from one end to the other?

Josie Osborne: 15:01

Well, it it is important to to have that vision in your head. And I think from a planning, and especially when you're talking about uh roadside engineering, to understand where you think a trail like this will go. So even though you might be able to construct it section by section, because that's what the money or the funding allows you to do, it's important to look forward to understand, you know, exactly where the trail is eventually going to go. And we had that experience on the West Coast where the BC Hydro poles that carry the power lines and telephone lines are all on one side of the highway in Tefino, but they're on the other side of the highway in the park. And we knew that the way the trail was going to be constructed, we were faced with some expensive choices. And so we had to think very carefully about where the path would go, even though we hadn't built it yet. Then actually constructing the path, I think, I mean, from the riders or the user's perspective, obviously the smoothest possible is by, you know, just having a single continuous path without gaps. And it would be frustrating to have a whole series of gaps throughout a long extended path. So probably, you know, adding on length by length so that it slowly gets longer and longer is going to lead to a better experience. But I, you know, what we found is because there is still one small gap that's being filled this summer on the West Coast, uh, you know, I think most people they understand it helps to communicate about what the plan is. Like, hey guys, sorry, we know that this isn't the best experience for you right now. Take care, stay safe when you when you have to get back onto the highway. But here's our vision and our plan.

Peter Ladner: 16:36

Oh, and by the way, if you want to donate money to this project to help us fill the gap, here's a website you can go to so I want to ask you a couple questions about your role as the Minister for Energy Mines and Low Carbon Innovation, particularly low carbon innovation. Do you consider active transportation uh expansion to be a significant part of low carbon innovation in our province?

Josie Osborne: 17:06

I sure do. And in fact, active transportation is a big part of our clean transportation action planning, and it's part of our roadmap to 2030. We have very ambitious climate targets. We know that reducing greenhouse gas emissions means getting people out of cars and uh even beyond that, adding options beyond transit. So seeing the revolution in e-bikes, I think has been really exciting. We've got e-bike rebates that people can access and other ways to increase their ability to take non-combustion engine vehicles. But active transportation is, you know, it's more than just reducing pollution. It's uh it's about better health care for us. It's good for mental health, it's good for our physical health. That's really important as well. And seeing the interest that local governments in particular are expressing in increasing their active transportation networks, the planning that they're undertaking, really proud of the support that the province is able to provide to communities to undertake that. Local governments and the people who live in communities, you know, they know their communities best. So they know where it makes sense to plan for better sidewalks, for transit routes, for cycling paths. And it's it's really exciting to see what's going on around the province.

Peter Ladner: 18:25

I just should put a plug-in here for an initiative that we're doing at the BC Cycling Coalition called Safe Roots Now, where we're mapping these routes around the province to show where progress is being made and where it's not being made. But I would all love to congratulate you on the e-bike rebate program. Were you surprised at how quickly it got scooped up and and the the maximum$6 million reached?

Josie Osborne: 18:49

I sure was, really surprised. I mean, it's exciting to see. It just goes to show how much demand is there. We've seen uh incredible uptake in the electric car rebate program, but to see this happen with the e-bikes is it's absolutely phenomenal.

Peter Ladner: 19:06

Well, it's pretty easy to make the case that that an investment in an e-bike, the return on investment for the province is per dollar is vastly higher than the electric vehicles because as you mentioned, you've got the health thing, you've got the reduced congestion, and the lower number of GSG emissions required to make it and all of that. Where do you think we're gonna go? How far can we go with e-bikes and active transportation in the province?

Josie Osborne: 19:33

I think we're just gonna see more and more. I mean, I I know you do see some community pushback sometimes, say in urban centers where bike lanes are going in and parking is being removed. And it's it's hard for folks to make that change and adjust, but once you see it in action, a year or two after separated bike lanes are put in, for example, in an urban environment, we see and we hear from people about just how successful it is. And I think that helps local businesses and other leaders come on board. I mean, it feels like the sky's the limit here. I think people want to take action. They understand that this is very urgent, this climate crisis that we're in, and that cycling, for example, is just one thing they can do to, as you put, you know, reduce congestion, have a healthier lifestyle, and uh reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. So I know that the province will continue supporting with rebate programs, with dollars for communities to plan and to construct active transportation routes and networks. And we're just gonna see this grow and grow. I think it's important too to realize that some of our more remote and rural communities they don't have the same kinds of opportunities, perhaps that we do in urban environments. And we need to make sure that we support them just as much as we are folks who are living in urban environments as well.

Peter Ladner: 20:50

Uh we started this conversation talking about chickens and eggs. Um there's a sort of a maxim in the cycling uh advocacy circles that uh what comes first, the more bikes are more safe routes to ride them on. And I would applaud the government in jumping into the whatever it is, egg or chicken side of the equation by by getting more bikes out there. And then immediately, of course, the uh the demand arises and the need arises for safer routes. Um one of the safer routes that people will have to um turn to in the province is provincial highways. And I know you're not the highways minister, but do you see uh a role for the highways to become active transportation corridors when they are effectively the main street in some of the smaller towns in the province?

Josie Osborne: 21:39

I think that's a really great question. And we're definitely seeing there are places like the south end of Vancouver Island, Victoria, Greater Victoria, where we have trails like the Galloping Goose, for example, that that roughly track alongside the highway and they provide that alternative. Maybe not quite the same in some other places. And so it makes for a bit trickier planning. Uh, out on the West Coast, with the highway that we have there, we've we've been able to build this this one separated bike trail alongside the highway. But it's something we're really going to have to put our minds to. What is fantastic about cycling and about bike paths is they don't take up as much space as highways. So we can look at being a bit more creative and inventive, I think, with the way that, for example, former rail lines might move through communities and how we could use those for cycling paths that provide a really nice alternative or pleasant, more pleasant alternative to highways. As we see uh rapid bus routes and other dedicated types of lanes coming into highways, I think, you know, again, like the the the sky's the limit here, and it's it's our thinking and willingness to try solutions, making sure that people are safe when we do them, and uh having people encourage us to do that. That's going to be all part of all part of that.

Peter Ladner: 22:52

Uh I noticed that uh in the United States there's a congressional cycling caucus that uh some avid cyclists on the in Congress put together bipartisan to encourage uh general advocacy for cycling across the floor. Do you see widespread support for active transportation in our legislature, or is it a little more partisan of a partisan issue?

Josie Osborne: 23:18

I I think this is a pretty non-partisan issue. I think that people all people understand that reducing congestion, healthier lifestyles, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, that these are all things that all British Columbians want. There are uh, I mean, I suppose down by the legislature, we are pretty much surrounded just by NDP riding. So we're gonna see local MLAs who are riding their bikes in, like uh Lana Popham rides her e-bike into work every day, and Murray Rankin, he rides his pedal cycle into work every day. It's pretty exciting. But I know parties, uh people from parties, all all three parties are are active cyclists, and I love that idea of a of a cycling caucus or a group. That's really that's great. I'm gonna I'm gonna take that back to the legislature.

Peter Ladner: 24:00

We'd be happy to support it in any way we can. Terrific.

Josie Osborne: 24:03

Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else you'd like to add on this? Well, I just want to say, Peter, thank you for the opportunity to do this. Anything we do, like the cycling coalition, the fantastic work that you do, building a podcast like this, getting the word out. Um, really fantastic experience. Thanks so much for having me.

Peter Ladner: 24:21

Well, we're happy to continue it and love your support and uh congratulations again on the work you've done at Tefino and the completion of this trail. I will definitely be going there to try it out.

Josie Osborne: 24:31

Awesome. Can't wait to see you out there.

Peter Ladner: 24:34

Thanks. Thanks for listening to Bike Tits and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, Strider Bike, Richard Sbuell Sutton LLP, and ICBC. Visit us at BCcycling.ca.

For more info about ʔapsčiik t̓ašii  - the Tofino-to-Ucluelet trail - visit:
parks.canada.ca/pn-np/bc/pacificrim

What does it take to build a bypass trail to facilitate active travel between two small communities along the side of a busy, Northern BC highway? Join host Peter Ladner in conversation with Allan Cormier of Smithers, BC to find out!

Release date: April 10, 2023

Peter Ladner: 0:05

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today, we're going to talk about one of BC's many successful off-road safe routes for cyclists and other vulnerable road users. This is, by the way, our very first podcast. And our featured guest today is Alan Cormier from Smithers. And I'm going to begin by just asking Alan to tell us a little bit about himself, and then we'll get straight into his project.

Allan Cormier: 0:53

Thank you, Peter. It's a privilege to be here. Well, Alan Cormier from Smithers, I'm retired after a very enjoyable career as a barber, which means I'm got to meet a lot of people and still connected with lots of folks. I've always been very interested in uh community projects and have been involved with several over the years in in Smithers here. I'm also a fan of cycling. That's my preferred choice of transportation. Um if I have a choice between a car or a bicycle, I'm on a bicycle.

Peter Ladner: 1:38

So, Alan, I'm here in Vancouver. How does it work cycling at Smithers this time of year or in the winter months?

Allan Cormier: 1:48

Winter months are challenging because you have a lot of icy road conditions. So I don't cycle in the winter. Some folks do. They put the studded tires on and go for it. I find it's I'd rather walk than cycle.

Peter Ladner: 2:06

Well, let's talk about the trail from Smithers to Telqua, which is the project of your group Cycle 16, where you're the president. And tell us just why why do you want to do this route? I know that we'll talk a little bit sooner about soon in soon about uh where it's at now. But when you started it or when somebody started it, how did it all happen? Why why build such a trail?

Allan Cormier: 2:32

Well, this goes back to 2002, the first attempt for a trail. It was a grant from the village of Telqua uh$4,000, I believe, to look at a study for a trail linking Smithers to Telqua.

Peter Ladner: 2:52

Why does anybody want to go to Telqua? Why did you want to go to Telqua?

Allan Cormier: 2:55

Well, for one, Telqua's a pretty spot, but Telqua is a um it's uh what would you call it? I have to think on my fly here.

Peter Ladner: 3:08

It's a village, officially. I know that.

Allan Cormier: 3:10

It's a village. Everyone who lives there, most people who live there work in Smithers or play in Smithers or shop in Smithers. So it's it's a the word escapes me.

Peter Ladner: 3:22

It's like a suburb, I think is the word you're looking for.

Allan Cormier: 3:25

Well, they wouldn't like to hear it that way, yes. But but but it is a commute, commuting community. People live there, enjoy living there, but they commute to Smithers. And so that that's one factor, one of the reasons I think the village wanted to uh promote this trail, and and a group was formed at that time. And at that time they looked at following the river. There's the Bulkley River flows from Telqua through Smithers, thinking that it would be the most scenic route, um, which would attract more tourists, and looking at it from that angle. Um, and that's one thing that telqua is constantly looking for is to improve their um tax base. And uh and and so they um they looked at that. But in 2002, it didn't go very far because, as you can imagine, following the river meant going in front of most people's properties, and people buy river frontage to enjoy the river, not cyclists going in front of their between their house and and so on. So it didn't fly. Uh and so it got put on the shelf until about 2015.

Peter Ladner: 4:45

Was there uh some kind of trail that people used, or if people wanted to cycle, would they have to be out on Highway 16? I it's about 12 kilometers, right?

Allan Cormier: 4:54

It's about 12 kilometers, Highway 16, or there is a um a gravel road connecting on the other side of the river. You'd have to cross a train bridge to get to that road, and people do use it, but if you think about folks crossing train bridges, uh it's not a very safe uh or or desirable circumstance. So um when it was you know it was put on on on hold or just put on the shelf in 2015, uh there was some renewed interest, and then the focus was let's stay close to the highway. Um and the number one reason shifted from tourism to a safe transportation route, and that's what uh made a big difference in our success was that shift. You know, uh it appealed to a lot more people, whereas uh a scenic route looking for tourists that's a small market, but um transportation, uh you know, uh commuting possibilities, uh that really uh changed the whole picture. And and people were cycling on the highway, but it's not a very safe circumstance.

Peter Ladner: 6:20

Yeah, I noticed that you had a tragedy where somebody was killed on that highway, and that was a bit of a I guess a bit of an incentive for the project to get moving.

Allan Cormier: 6:31

It certainly was a factor. Uh, and there were several accidents. There was that one that you're referring to, but others were people were seriously injured. Yeah, so with our you know, prior this the accident, we we were well underway with our plans and that when that did happen, but our surveys that brought us uh from 2015 forward, the number one reason whenever we survey folks for support for the trail is safety, and that includes truckers, people that use the highway from a commercial point of view, they they feel a lot more comfortable having a separate pathway.

Peter Ladner: 7:21

So you've you've got a three-phase project, and it will be a multi-use path for cyclists and people walking and hiking along the route. And tell me where you are now. I I understand you've you've hit some kind of a milestone, as they say, or you've you find you've reached something that's pretty significant.

Allan Cormier: 7:39

We have, yeah. We're we're delighted with that. So we we design we uh had our trail designed to the BC Active Transportation Guidelines, which brings it to a level where folks that uh with different abilities can utilize it. And so it's not just a cycling trail, it's walking, it's uh folks with scooters or other means, and so it it really will appeal and is useful for a wide variety of folks. We we we did design our trail to be uh completed in three phases. Phase one will be complete uh this spring. It was almost finished, but winter caught up with us. So there's just a few things left to be done. One is painting a center line, but there's some signage, some shoulder work that has to be completed. So we're planning a grand opening celebration of phase one. And phase one takes us about four kilometers, so it's a it's a third of our final destination. It does take us to a point um next to a large trailer park. There's 94 homes there. There's also several rural homes in that area, and crossing the highway, you connect with a whole network of roads that are that connect to some really nice bike trails in the Balkway Valley. So it's in itself is a success and a sort of a completion.

Peter Ladner: 9:27

Even if you didn't go any further. Um tell us a little bit about the support you've got. You mentioned that it started as a tourist amenity and then it shifted more to a cycling infrastructure for for the locals. Uh, I noticed on your website you've got over a thousand members. Who are some of your partners in this and and what did they contribute?

Allan Cormier: 9:48

Well, we have um well, we have quite a large membership. If you look at you know, our population is uh say 1,200 people in the valley. So we we have about 10 people.

Peter Ladner: 10:00

Everybody's a member of your society?

Allan Cormier: 10:02

No, 12,000, sorry. So we're looking at 10% uh as members. So yeah, just the just one zero out. That's all.

Peter Ladner: 10:11

Tell me about the the uh you've got presumably some of the tourist organizations if there if there is one. Did you get provincial support from this for this?

Allan Cormier: 10:21

Yes, we've uh had uh in fact a major part of the construction funding came from a federal provincial grant.

Peter Ladner: 10:31

And what is the total cost of this going to be?

Allan Cormier: 10:35

The the final cost we estimate to be about seven million dollars, but of course that can change as we go along. This this portion is about three million dollars, I would say, what we've what we've uh got to date.

Peter Ladner: 10:52

Um and you've been raising that money since 2015 through grants, donations, started 2015, 2015.

Allan Cormier: 11:00

We got a big grant from the Rotary Club in 2016. They gave us$15,000, which helps you get uh a feasibility study going. And then in 2017, the Ministry of Transport kicked in 20 grand, and but we've been very active with um various groups, and any grant we can write, uh any fundraising possibility, we've uh been working on that.

Peter Ladner: 11:33

Um so your society has been doing all this work, has to round up all these grants. You're you've got to get into the millions here. You've just talked about 20,000 here and there, but how do you get how are you gonna get to six million?

Allan Cormier: 11:46

Well, what we've found so uh looking at phase one, to get to phase one, it it um the money we raised helps uh pay for the conceptual planning and the detailed design drawings, which you you know it's probably uh$250,000 of the three million. But once you have plans that are ready to go, governments, provincial and federal governments, they like those kind of plans. That's when you can get shovel ready, shovel ready, that's the key. So they like to have a plan that is ready to go, and so we were uh in that position last well, a year and a half ago, uh shovel ready with phase one, and uh and now we're close to shovel ready with phase two and three should be completed this uh fall. So we've we we we got those funds, and that helps you get the big money.

Peter Ladner: 13:02

When you're talking about advice to other communities around BC, uh that I'm taking it one of your big points would be do whatever you can to get the plans together, and once once you're there, it opens a lot of other doors. Were there other things that you learned that that would be applicable in other places?

Allan Cormier: 13:21

Certainly uh the biggest thing is building relationships. So we we you know talked about partnerships earlier. Well the the various stakeholders, well, that would be the the town of Smithers, village of Telqua, the Office of the Wetsuetan, big supporters, and uh the Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure have also been uh very supportive, as well as the regional district. And most of our trail is within the regional district. And so for every one of those groups, this was a learning curve because this is the first trail of its kind in the regional district, in this area. So the regional district had to come up with a whole new policy for trails uh because of our project, and that has resulted in they now have that in place, and they're they're working on their own trail network from Burns Lake to connect to Francois Lake, which is about a 25-kilometer trail. That's building on what we've what they've learned from working with us.

Peter Ladner: 14:42

Oh, fantastic. Did you find the engineering and planning expertise locally, or did you have to contract that out?

Allan Cormier: 14:50

We have it local, and we're very fortunate with that. Uh the um we have we have hired uh a project manager. He works for WSP, which is a Canadian-wide firm. But he grew up in Smithers, young family man. Uh his summers were spent working for the road construction paving company here. So he knows how to use a shovel and he knows uh from the engineering point of view how to design it. So he's been very keen. And in fact, he's been uh contacted by several groups throughout the province because of the expertise he's developed from working on this trail. So we've all learned and developed our skills as we move along.

Peter Ladner: 15:41

Alan, uh, I just want to ask you what's going to happen on your your phase one opening? What what's when is it and what will happen? Will you be playing your ukulele?

Allan Cormier: 15:51

Any chance I get. We are uh June 10th is is our date that we've set for our celebration, and we'll be inviting the stakeholders that have worked with us. So that will be the uh the office of the wet sweating village of Smithers, uh Town of Smithers, village of Telqua, regional district, ministry of transport folks, and anyone else that we can think of. So we're we're in the planning stages of what kind of a party it will be, but um there will be lots of activity, I'm sure, and music, of course.

Peter Ladner: 16:33

There's lots of music in the valley here, so I I know you're famous for your I've met some of your musicians from Smithers. You've got a great uh singing group up there. I can't remember their name, but uh I I've sung with some of them.

Allan Cormier: 16:46

The local locals, perhaps.

Peter Ladner: 16:49

Uh the smithereens or something like that? Or I don't know. Um did you have any opposition to this?

Allan Cormier: 17:01

Not a lot. Um no, I I wouldn't say opposition. We have questions about it, and and that's okay. Questions are good because uh they uh get you to go back and do your homework and answer those questions.

Peter Ladner: 17:20

Uh concerns, I guess, would be more um what were some of the concerns that people raised?

Allan Cormier: 17:28

Well, about why is money going to this when it could be going to that. That's fair enough. I mean, as taxpayers, we all have to have a say in where our funds go and or should have. Um but I can't think of any strong opposition against it.

Peter Ladner: 17:50

One of the concerns that is pretty common when these kind of projects come forward is well, there aren't very many cyclists really, and the rest of us are driving cars, we have to, or trucks, or whatever. Um, how do you justify spending all this money on this very small elite group of people? And I assume you have to have you you've heard that a little bit and maybe have an answer for that.

Allan Cormier: 18:12

Well, yeah, we have heard that. Um, but I think the shift, you know, we when it was focused on a tourist type trail, there was a lot of that. But when it became a transportation trail, that shifted. But also I think the the general attitude has shifted regarding cycling. It used to be viewed as uh, oh, you're going cycling as if you're going to play soccer or a sport. Whereas now it's quite normal to see people going grocery shopping or using it for transportation.

Peter Ladner: 18:54

So utility and and functionality become a big feature when you're trying to win people over.

Allan Cormier: 19:01

Yes, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a there's just a general shift in quality of life, and and you you see that in anything you can make your community uh that adds to your community, it it brings people in, you know. Uh Smithers faces what everyone else faces, doctor shortages, although we have seem to have plenty, uh, but uh all of those things people will locate here because not first because of a job, but because of other amenities. You know, we have a Ski Hill, we have uh fantastic uh mountain biking association and on and on. So this is just one more amenity that will bring people here, just like with the music scene as well.

Peter Ladner: 19:56

I could see how uh there would be a lot of road uh sort of mountain bikers in Smithers as there are in so many um towns in BC. But road riders, are there quite as many? And do you think that this trail will build a road rider, I don't know, constituency if you like, or will encourage more people to be out riding road bikes, or will you do you think it'll be mostly used by mountain bike, actual mountain bikes?

Allan Cormier: 20:24

Well, yeah, I think if you if you have if that's your only bicycle, you'll use it everywhere you can. Um but I know several people, they've got a road bike, they've got a mountain bike, and and a town bike. So yeah.

Peter Ladner: 20:43

Well, I expect you'll see those all on the uh on the route. And uh what do you do now? Now that you've got the first, once you've done the first phase and the celebration and the ukulele music dies down, how about then what are you going to do for the next two phases? What are the next steps?

Allan Cormier: 21:01

Well, the next step is we are working uh together with our project manager on phase two, uh the detailed design drawings, which we're hoping to have completed uh by July. This is a little more complex than phase one. There's five landowners on this stretch and a very narrow piece of highway, so that means you're working with BC Hydro and other factors. So it's taking some negotiating and making sure everyone's happy with the plan. But that's our our goal is to have this completed. The funds are in place to complete phase two, and we have funds in place to complete phase three. And so phase three detailed design is also going to start, and some of the work that's um allocated for phase two will be done jointly with phase three. So we're hoping uh, best case scenario, by the fall we'll have phase two and three shelf ready, which means we're looking for the big bucks, and and we're hoping that the momentum of phase one will push that through. And I think it already has a huge effect. You know, last year once it started construction and it was paved, and people saw it and started using it, it became oh, that's what you're talking about. It's much easier to show something than to talk about an idea.

Peter Ladner: 22:42

Absolutely. And uh congratulations for you for getting that sample in place because I think that's the same everywhere. People don't really understand or believe it's going to have benefits, but once they get out on it, it's a whole different story.

Allan Cormier: 22:56

Yeah, yeah, and that's what we're excited about. And so we're hoping to build on that momentum. And in fact, just adding to that, you know, we have our phase one, two, and three, but telqua added phase four, which is to continue on with their active transportation plan, which they're just completing right now. And town of Smithers is also working on connecting uh our trail and improving that connection.

Peter Ladner: 23:29

So uh so has this project, do you think, triggered uh a bigger interest in active transportation and active transportation plans in all other areas too? I mean other parts of the town and the near and the neighborhood?

Allan Cormier: 23:43

It's certainly I think it has. It certainly helped, I know, in within Smithers, the act when they uh put in place some of the things from their active transportation plan. There isn't the resistance as we spoke of earlier, it's like just for a few cyclists. It's like, well, it's not just cyclists, active transportation is a lot of folks getting out and about. Um, for example, uh at our uh seniors, we have a um uh seniors care home. They have a bicycle with a wheelchair that they purchased last year. Well, guess what? They're gonna be using it around town, but on our trail. And that so that's another thing that probably wasn't considered five years ago.

Peter Ladner: 24:38

What do you anticipate the breakdown will be of traffic on the route? Will it be 80% cyclist, 90% cyclist? Will it be the a lot? Will it be people hiking and walking, rolling, scooters?

Allan Cormier: 24:52

I'm thinking it will be about 75% cyclists, but um there are folks walking their dog on it already. And and a friend of mine who's in his 60s or close to 60 bought a longboard and he says, I'm gonna use it on the grand opening.

Peter Ladner: 25:12

That sounds fantastic, Alan. I I look forward to going to Smithers and and uh riding on that on that route sometime. I want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story, and uh we'll have a link to you and Cycle 16 as well on our website, bccycling.ca. And uh thank you very much for for being part of this, our very first podcast.

Allan Cormier: 25:38

It's a privilege uh to be here and to to talk about this project. And uh I also want to say thanks to the BC Cycling Coalition because you've helped us along our journey many times with with grants, but just connecting us with other folks in the province to give us the information that we need.

Peter Ladner: 25:59

Oh, that's great to hear, and we look forward to continuing to do it to do that work. Alan, can you play us out with your ukulele? Okay, I'd like to what shall I play? We've got a we got an in extra music. We can that can be our let's go with that.

Allan Cormier: 26:35

How's that for improvising on the spot? Yeah.

Peter Ladner: 26:39

Great. Royalties will flow.

Allan Cormier: 26:41

Oh yeah. Well, I you know where I'll spend them. Cycle 16.

Peter Ladner: 26:46

You buy I meant I I didn't mention your your spoke campaign where you can buy a one meter of the trail for six hundred dollars.

Allan Cormier: 26:54

That's a yeah, and uh or a spoke is twenty-five dollars.

Peter Ladner: 27:00

And how much do you get for twenty-five dollars? How many inches or centimeters?

Allan Cormier: 27:04

Well, not a lot of distance, but you get the feeling that I contributed. That's the so we thought a spoke is you know, someone can just come in with their birthday money, or but six hundred dollars per meter, it's it at least it gives you a vision of what you're contributing to.

Peter Ladner: 27:24

Sure, and I guess there's a lot of volunteer time too. That's oh yeah, just it's not and equally if not more important than money. Is there anybody else you'd like to give a shout out to uh who's been involved with it?

Allan Cormier: 27:36

Well, uh, you know, our MLE, uh Nathan Cullen, where he's yeah, he was MP, now he's an MLE, and and Taylor Backrack have both been very supportive of uh projects, and and that's key to to talk to your politicians. Uh you know, in the beginning we bought a lot of coffee for a lot of people, and that's it's about building relationships, building networks. One of the landowners from the phase two, where there's two landowners, one was resistant until we brought them uh a loaf of freshly made sourdough bread, and that opened the door. So you never know what works for you.

Peter Ladner: 28:23

All right. Thanks for listening to Bike Tech and supporting Safe Cycling in BC. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BT Cycling Coalition relies on your support to continue our work. Please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC. Special thanks to our sponsors, Driver Bike, Richardfuels.ca.